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[email protected] on the web. Ooh, I'm Annie Harvey clearly in my right mind tonight, Dave Feig chats with Chris stark author of the Minnesota book of award nominated novel. Carnival lights said in a summer of hippie Vietnam, war protests and the moon landing, carnival lights also spans settler arrival in the 18 hundreds, the creation of the reservation system and decades of cultural suppression. Chris teaches at central lakes, community college in Brainard, Minnesota, and she is a member of the Minnesota missing and murdered indigenous women task force.
Speaker 1 00:01:25 And I'm Dave fed egg. Then in the last part of the hour, Liz olds talks with Carol Lawrence, an award-winning novelist, poet, composer, and playwright, a journalist in 19th century, New York matches Witz with a serial killer in a gripping thriller by the prize winning author of the Ian Hamilton trees. Lawrence has received several awards, including the euphoria poetry prize and the Eve of Saint Agnes poetry prize. She's a Hawthorn fellow and has taught at NYU and the Gotham writer's workshop among her many teaching credits, all of this, and so much more. So stay tuned to write on radio and now
Speaker 4 00:02:16 Arrest you, pick you up, do whatever they wanted with you. Um,
Speaker 5 00:02:21 I think that's
Speaker 4 00:02:24 Hi, Chris. And welcome to right on radio.
Speaker 5 00:02:27 Hi, thanks for having
Speaker 4 00:02:28 Me. It's a great pleasure to have you here and to talk about your new novel carnival lights. And I want to mention to our listeners that the novel has been nominated for Minnesota book award, and that event will happen next Tuesday evening. So good luck, Chris.
Speaker 5 00:02:43 Yeah, thanks. It's really exciting.
Speaker 4 00:02:45 Well, it's, it's a novel that's worthy of it and uh, we wish you all the best and I look forward to talking to you about it, but let's get started at the top of the reading if you would, please. And before we do that, if you could tell us about the book, the scope of it, and then set up the reading for us, and then we'll dig in.
Speaker 5 00:03:04 Sure. It's technically historical fiction. Uh, it, it follows two Ojibwe teen girl cousins, Sharon and Chris in over the course of a few Mon uh, few weeks in August of 1969, but the, a backstory, uh, digs into their family going back into the 18 hundreds and then up through 1969. And there's actual historical events and characters who also are woven in throughout the fictional story of the Ojibwe family and the two Ojibwe girls. So it's all sudden Minnesota and, uh, I'm, I'm just really thrilled. I started it 20 years ago. The two characters came to me 20 years ago and I'm quite thrilled to have finished it and then be up for a, a Minnesota book award.
Speaker 4 00:03:55 Yeah, tremendous wonderful. So set us set our arena up for us if you would, please.
Speaker 5 00:03:59 Absolutely. So this picks up, uh, with the girls after they have left the fictitious Northern Minnesota reservation, come down to Minneapolis on a Greyhound bus again in August, 1969. And shortly after getting off the bus, they're approached by two men, uh, kind of playing a good cop, bad cop with the girls and they don't immediately understand what is going on, but once they do, they take off running. And that's where this part of the book picks up. The girls ran the pack, slapped against chairs back in here, Cher yank Chris down a narrow brick alley. A cat ran off Cher, cut behind some garbage cans, lost her footing and slid into a pile of bulky garbage bags. Kristen tumbled behind her. The girls froze like the statue game. They used to play the alley smelled like fish and sour milk foot approached. Cher appeared between the cans and reached back reflexively to touch Chris's lips.
Speaker 5 00:05:07 The well dressed man stopped at the alley and then continued down the sidewalk away from the Depot. Cher watched the street and Chris watched her keeping her head low. The girls did not move a man trotted by coming from the direction of the bus Depot, Cher thought, but could not be sure that it was the first man, the one with the shiny shoes, half running, because he could not lift his feet up high enough or fast enough without slipping. After he passed the alley, Cher looked at Kristen and lifted her eyebrows as if to say, who knows when the girls were babies, their grand mother had pinched their lips to teach them silence. The girls knew how to be still not make any sound thoughtful even of their breathing until their grandmother found them flat on the floor beneath a homemade horsehair stuffed mattress or under the workshop in the basement over which their grandmother had draped an old wool blanket to hide them from the white lady's social workers who came looking to steal Indian children.
Speaker 5 00:06:08 When older, if the girls were out in the yard and heard a car different than the rattle of their grandparents' truck, they'd run to the house or barn or shed. If in the fields, the girls stood stock still in line with the corn rows or dove into an indentation in the earth where they stayed until the bell on the porch rang four times. Their grandmother only died their home spun clothes, earth colors, leaving behind the bite brightly, beaded, and died regalia of the Ojibwe to make sure her babies did not pop out of the Browns and greens like red choke cherries before they ripened into a purple mass hanging heavy off a branch. If in the house, when a car drove up unannounced, their grandmother commanded down. The girls ran, slid and ducked into their hiding holes, listening, breathing without sound, always waiting for the bell.
Speaker 5 00:06:56 Four times Ethel's granddaughters were not going to disappear into the white world as she had stolen from her family and placed in a Catholic boarding school and then sold to work as a domestic on a farm outside Fargo two months after being dropped off by the nuns and daily beatings by the farm wife with a broomstick and rolling pin, she ran away finally escaping for good down, unknown back roads. The girls stayed in the alley for some time, occasionally glancing behind them where the alley dog leak to the right a silence rose up split by sirens and the squeal of wheels. No bell rang four times so they could come out of hiding, bury themselves in their grandmother's belly. And flushy arms share glance from the street to the alley behind them. And then back again, her knee and shin swelled from the crash into the bags, anxiety surfaced in Chris hopping like welts over her body.
Speaker 5 00:07:53 She rested her head on Cher's calf. She smoothed her cousin's hair and kept watch breathing through her mouth to, to smell wanting to spit, but afraid of the noise that would make time stilled the moon edged west Cher thought of the story about how time was brought to Indians by a big clock. She could see her grandfather telling the story again, his skinny brown legs, Johnny gone of his shorts and off the upside down bucket. He sat on. Then since then he said his eye shining with that light. That popped when he told stories, Indians have been weighted down. He pulled on an imaginary chain around his neck, just like the white man by thatta time machine, the number of cars on the street lesson, muffled voices, sirens, and laughing, drifted down the alley. Cher shifted, found another crack she could peer through and then locked her body in that position. Chris moved with her two men's voices, mirrored. The Depot man stopped and looked down. The alley, looked down there all no need. The wild dressed man said, I would've seen them turn into it. The man with a shiny shoes stared down the alley they're gone for now. One's Indian. Maybe both. We'll find them. Can't hide on these streets forever.
Speaker 4 00:09:19 Thank you. That was Chris stark reading from her new novel carnival lights. And that gives you listeners a sense for the, uh, drama, the journey of Chris and share and um, in indeed even their ancestors, there's a lot packed into that reading. Thank you for that, Chris.
Speaker 5 00:09:37 Yeah. Thank you. We
Speaker 4 00:09:38 Need to talk a lot about Christian share, but before we do, um, where did this story come from?
Speaker 5 00:09:45 It actually began when I was living in Florida and going to graduate school at the university of central Florida, we had an assignment to do an imitation of Cormick. McCarthy's all the pretty horses and Sharon, Chris just popped out in that seven page imitation. Huh? My instructor said afterwards, I really hope that you write their, this girl, these girl's stories because, uh, you have a responsibility to them. So that's where it began. And that was 20 years ago. A long time ago.
Speaker 4 00:10:15 Wow. Wow. I, I, I can see why you could, you can't write this in a hurry. Um, so, and we're gonna talk about Chris and she a lot and maybe come back to them. But, um, so let's start with them. Where did, where did these, another sort of formative question? Um, Chris, Chris, this is Chris with a K you're Chris with a ch, but Chris, where did Chris with a K and share? Where did they come from? Uh, they're just, uh, uh, two captivating characters. We care so much about them and you broke our hearts with them and, uh, made us love them. But, uh, uh, where did they come from when you had that experience down in Florida?
Speaker 5 00:10:54 It's interesting because I feel like they emerged, they introduced themselves to me and that, that little bit of imitation writing and most of those seven or 10 pages appeared in the book exactly the way that it was, it was written then. Oh, wow. So that was really the core of the seed of the story, those two girls. And then that, that little section there that I began. So my experience in writing them and, and much of this book is, is as much as listening to these characters that emerge or mm-hmm, <affirmative> sort of, um, come to me versus me really thinking, oh, I'm making this up on this person based on this person and another person. So it's almost like a co-creation of course I'm the writer. Yeah. But it almost feels like more, you know, more of a co-creation with, uh, with whatever you wanna call it. Creativity. Yeah. The spirituality imagination.
Speaker 4 00:11:53 Right, right. No, that's interesting. That makes sense. Um, Chris and share are related they're cousins. Um, they make a decision to leave the reservation, um, and then they go off on, uh, they're always running Chris, running, running, running from something, are they, what are they running toward? They're not even sure themselves, are they?
Speaker 5 00:12:16 Yeah, I don't think so. Uh, they're, they're running towards themselves, but they don't know where that's gonna take them and where they're going to, uh, or what they're gonna become, share is more self realized to them. Chris is Chris went through some difficult things in her childhood. Yes. And, and Cher has, has a steadiness about her and, and Chris is much more on fire and flighty and Cher because of that abuse because of that past. And that was one of the things that I wanted to show, you know, with the two of them as well, just sort of that contrast and, and the, the difference that it can make for young people, uh, and the trajectory of their lives going forward when they have experienced difficult times, the kind of toll that can take on, on a teenager.
Speaker 4 00:13:12 Yeah. Yeah. Uh, they're often in danger of, about being caught. Uh, the sense of being on the run, um, is very powerful sort of theme and idea. And I, and I know it's a part of this story, but it also works as a progressive theme, at least for me as a reader. Uh, can you tell us a little bit about that time? I 1969, if, if, if you were a young person, young women, girls, native girls on the run, if you love Minnesota, um, was that a particular feature of the time? And I say, featuring quotes, um, such that if you were out, if you're riding on a bus, if you were alone in the city, you are naturally presumed to be some sort of truant and men, and it was always men, of course, could arrest you, pick you up, do whatever they wanted with you. Um,
Speaker 5 00:14:06 I think that's very true for girls at that time. And I think it continues to be sadly all too true for girls at this time. And in terms of native girls, when you look at the history of, as my wean, I'm Ojibwe and Cherokee, my wean Earl Hogan always said the attempted genocide, because we're still here. <laugh>, um, you know, that, that that's a, a long history of survival running in some ways being hunted as well. And that's, you know, one of the sort of minor, I guess, themes or, or more, um, subtle themes that goes along with that aspect of running mm-hmm <affirmative> is, is being hunted. And, uh, you know, when you read the history books, that's, that's a dominant theme for many, uh, native people running, hiding assimilating. You know, if you, if you end up with, uh, you know, facial features and skin that can pass, you might pass right into the white world and disappear right into the white world, you know, that happened to a lot of people as well. Yes. So there's all sorts of ways to run and hide and, and these girls set off to hopefully find a better future for themselves, but they're not prepared. They're not prepared for what is waiting for them.
Speaker 4 00:15:30 One of a good girls could pass as white. It, it seems mm-hmm, <affirmative>, um, chooses not to, I suppose, or chooses to stick with her cousin, which by aligning herself with her cousin, um, she puts herself at risk. It's, it's a, um, a sad statement of the time, I guess, in the time, um, that me association would put her in danger association with family.
Speaker 5 00:15:54 Yeah. And, and like I said, you know, um, my, you know, elders talk about that. My, even my grandmother's age, which wasn't all that long ago, uh, what, however, you looked, if you, you know, quote, unquote, look native, or if you could pass as white, if the people would find out that you were native, you could be raped, murdered, lose your land, lose your children, you know, and I think a lot of people are not aware of not only what is happening, you know, now to a, a lot of, uh, native people with the MMI w and mm, I R but, but how intense and how heavy that was, and you live us into those elder stories, and it really gives you a different version of history for this country. And that is definitely, uh, something that I drew upon in writing this book was the things that the elders passed along to me in, in their stories. I didn't use their exact stories. Right. But the general themes definitely show up in this book. Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:16:54 You mentioned M M I, I w M M I R. Do you wanna describe those?
Speaker 5 00:16:59 Yeah. So people may have heard of missing and murdered indigenous women or missing and murdered indigenous relatives. Yep. And, um, some great news here, going off the literary path a little bit good. Uh, I was on the Minnesota. Mm. I w task for worse. And we now have the first ever mm I R they changed it to relatives to be more inclusive. Uh, mm I R uh, legisla legislatively, uh, mandated office here in Minnesota to help to address these issues that have been gone ongoing since, uh, since contact. So we have a lot of, mm I R missing and murdered indigenous relatives now, right now, you know, in the state of Minnesota mm-hmm <affirmative>, and it's really an exciting time because there's work being done and there's organiz, organizing, being done around those issues to help prevent that. And also to help find those relatives who have been murdered or lost.
Speaker 4 00:17:57 Thank you for that bit of hopeful news. Um, we will take it with a grain of salt, but it's hope, and it's, it's, it's, it's some movement. And, uh, especially coming off of your novel, which I, as I said left me somewhat, um, heartbroken, uh, uh, the, the history that pops in your end, I'm gonna start repeating myself here because I need to, it's a relatively small, novel 250 pages, but it's power packed with so much. Um, and there's history in here, not a lot, but enough to, uh, remind us that this is not a story happening just 1969, or even in 2022. It's a story that has been happening it's always ever present. Um, how did you do your research? What, what informed your reach back into history to, um, uh, help, you know, frame the story?
Speaker 5 00:18:49 I, I write academic research based articles, and then I also do the fiction. And, uh, so some of the research that emerged in this book came through the research that I was conducting for some academic work that I was doing okay. Around. Mm I w issues. Yep. But actually I feel like would identify the bulk of the quote unquote research for this book. I would perhaps call intuitive research. Like I would just turn on the TV and there would be what I needed, you know, for the book right there on PDFs or whatever, I'd have a hole in the story. And I knew all I knew about that whole was that it was a finished family and I would just start Googling and all this information would come and I'd be like, wow, that's a perfect fit for this book. So it was a really interesting, it was a very interesting process.
Speaker 5 00:19:40 And like I referenced earlier, you know, the dominant culture uses the word creativity to describe, you know, uh, writing. Yeah. And, um, you know, perhaps the, the another word that describes it just as well might be spirituality. Sure. Uh, you know, I, I had experiences writing this book. I thought that it was done about seven years ago. I was just about to hit the sun button to my publisher. And this character came that had not been in my consciousness. You know, I didn't know anything about him and his whole story, just, it was just like downloaded, you know, into my, uh, type dish fast as I could. I got it down. It was Leonard. And then I sobbed for a week. I mean, sobbed, I was devastated, just devastated. Wow.
Speaker 4 00:20:29 Wow.
Speaker 5 00:20:29 So it, you know, who can explain it? Who can, it's a mystery and that, that it's nice to have mysteries in our lives. Isn't it?
Speaker 4 00:20:37 <laugh>, it really is. It really is. Thank you for sharing that, uh, uh, our listeners, um,
Speaker 7 00:20:53 Be with Carol Lawrence author of Clea pet's dagger. Are you there, Carol?
Speaker 8 00:20:58 I am. I have to say listening to your calendar of events. I wish I were in Minnesota and could come to some of them.
Speaker 7 00:21:04 <laugh> we do a lot of them though. Don't we <laugh>.
Speaker 8 00:21:08 Oh, man. It just sounds so fun. <laugh>
Speaker 7 00:21:11 Well, why don't we have some fun and start with the brief description of the book and a reading.
Speaker 8 00:21:18 Okay, sure. Um, so I was sort of, uh, wondering whether I should take the description from the, uh, you know, listing on Amazon. And I thought it'd be better to use my own words and tell you what, you know, the way I would describe it. Um, Elizabeth van V is from an old, pretty well born Dutch family in New York city in the late 19th century, the years, 1880. And, um, she has a mother who's a terrible social climber and extremely interested in status and really wants to become part of Mrs. Astor's renowned circle of people. And her father is a judge, but Elizabeth has ambitions to be a journalist. And she is in fact hired to work for the social, uh, column at the New York Herald, which was one of the most popular newspapers in the city in 1880, but she has higher ambitions. She wants to work the crime beat. And when she comes across a body in central park, she takes that story to her editor since she discovers the body. And she basically <laugh>, uh, uh, bribes him into letting her take over the crime beat and investigate the murder of someone who was found in central park. And that's how she becomes the first female crime reporter in New York city.
Speaker 7 00:22:45 Okay. And why don't we do the reading?
Speaker 8 00:22:48 Okay, fine. Uh, so Elizabeth makes a friend early on in this story who an artist, she lives in a building that has the fifth floor. This is a real building that actually existed. And she has, uh, a young woman who is an artist who introduces herself because she has a studio on the fifth floor of, uh, Elizabeth's apartment building. Her name is Carlota Ackerman, and she's from a Polish Jewish family. And, uh, she and Elizabeth, she talks Elizabeth going, getting up really early in the morning at basically before Dawn and meeting her in central park just to wander around and eat bagels, uh, which Elizabeth has never had before. And so she brings her little dog, Toby who goes everywhere with her. And this is the two women together in central park, uh, very early in the morning where they pretty much have the park to themselves.
Speaker 8 00:23:41 Queuing on the bagel. Elizabeth followed Carlota along the south side of the museum and into the park. The Dew on the grass sparkled like tiny diamonds in the morning, sun and bird song filled the air, her dark thoughts of the night before evaporated with the mist, Dr. From the Meadows, as they wandered deeper into the park, Toby loves it here. Carlota said as the dog dashed about poking his nose into bushes hedges and burrows what's that she asked as they approached a construction area behind the museum, mountains of excavated dirt stacked in neat piles. Are they expanding the museum? Oh, this must be the site for the ALUS. Elizabeth said, Oli, have you not heard of clear Pat's needle? I might have read something about it. Carla said early as Toby charged off to investigate the tempting mounds of dirt. It's an ancient Egyptian Oly.
Speaker 8 00:24:41 Elizabeth said there's one in Paris and London got one, three years. And now we are getting one. Why from what I've read, it's a gesture of gratitude from chiro. I wonder if it's cursed, Carlota said that's going to be a massive hole. She added as they approached, the area was cordoned off by a simple fence, made from red rope wound around wooden stakes, pushed into the ground. I doubt that rope really deters anyone. Elizabeth M as they surveyed the construction site, the hole still rather shallow, perhaps perhaps six feet deep, but the bottom lay in deep shadow, invisible from the slanted rays of the morning sun, as they walked around to the other Toby began barking furiously from behind a Mount of dirt. Toby Carlota called out, but he ignored her. His barking grew louder and more insistent interspersed with grows. Toby, what on earth?
Speaker 8 00:25:41 She said, following him as she stepped behind a pile of dirt, the dog suddenly went silent. Elizabeth heard a squeal of surprise from Carlo. Then what sounded like a body falling to the ground? Carlo Carla Elizabeth yelled, but there was no reply panic. She dashed to the other side of the, the pile of dirt and saw Carlota on the ground and what appeared to be a dead faint. Toby stood over her, looking her face frantically as Elizabeth melt down beside her, something at the bottom of the hole caught her eye shielding her eyes from the sun. She appeared down at the object. Now visible from this angle, her breath caught in her throat. When she saw what it was her first reaction was that she must be hallucinating. She realized that Carlota and Toby had seen it too lying at the bottom of the newbie dug hole wrapped in clean white cloth was what appeared to be a perfectly pristine Egyptian mummy.
Speaker 8 00:26:41 So you see it too. Car lit said, sitting up and brushing the grass from her hair. It's not a Mirage. Not unless we're both hallucinating. Elizabeth said helping her to her feet. Are you quite alright? I just fainted. It's nothing. You should take care and perfectly fine. I tell you, you may have some underlying condition please re from continuing this inquiry, we have something much more pressing to contend with. Toby looked up expectantly wagging his Stu of a tail eagerly. It looks like a woman said, Carla, do you suppose it's real? It's probably a practical joke. Elizabeth said dropping to her knees beside the hole, but there's only one way to find out, give me a hand. No, no, you're not. No you can't. I can. And I will, but surely we should inform police. And so we shall, but first I'd like to take a closer look.
Speaker 8 00:27:39 You don't really believe there's body in there. Do you? If there is, it's a story my editor cannot afford to refuse hand, please. Carla helped her down into the hole, which was surprisingly cold and damp. Like the grave Elizabeth shivered, as she stepped toward the still white figure her conviction was that it was a practical joke faded. As she approached the closer she got, the more, it looked like an actual body. Be careful Carlo calm down. It might get the only manner of diseases. Elizabeth looked back up as Tony, as Toby started barking again, Carlo grabbed hold of his collar, be quiet, obey puring at her side obediently, but his body strained forward, eagerly Elizabeth swallowed hard and leaned over the motionless figure. She half expected it to abruptly come to life and thought that if it did she too, would faint bending over. She hesitantly touched its shoulder. It was stone cold, no warmth of life course through its still limbs. But she realized that once something she had not allowed herself to believe she was in the presence of a recently deceased person. It was also clear that the body was that of a woman.
Speaker 7 00:29:06 Thank you. That was a reading by Carol warrants from CLE Patrick's dagger. Let's start with the basic thing, uh, 1880 New York city. Uh, I'm wondering what about that time? And, well, I, I imagine I know why the city inspired you, but what about the time inspired the book?
Speaker 8 00:29:26 Well, I actually had, my previous series took place in 1880 in Edinburg Edinborough. And, um, when my, uh, which is, which is a time period that I chose very specifically because a certain person was a medical at medical school at the university of Edinburg at that time, uh, a certain person who later became famous as the author of the Sherlock Holmes novels. But, um, I was very, I was very attracted the 19th century. Uh, and so rather than change time periods and become familiar with the whole other time period, I thought it would be good to stay in the 19th century. And 1880 was actually an amazing year in New York city as well. And so rather than go back to Edinborough and start a new series in Edinburgh, I thought it would be fun to write about the city that I lived in and, and knew so well.
Speaker 7 00:30:20 Um, tell us a little bit, uh, more about Elizabeth Vander Brook. I'm wondering, uh, especially about her relationship with her family and, uh, her, uh, desire to break away from that, uh, relationship to some extent,
Speaker 8 00:30:37 Well she's of a, of an age and of a time period. You know, it wasn't unusual for well born young women to go to college. She went to Vassar, uh, which was already a very well established women's college at the time. And, um, she straining at the yolk of what is expected of women in that time period. And it was a time period in which there was a lot of social at people and, and social change, uh, following the civil war, there were tremendous changes in society, both in the working class and in the upper classes. And she also observes the incredible poverty and, and social injustice that existed in New York at the time. And, and if we think it's bad now, it was, it was almost UN unbelievable. Uh, the way the lower classes lived in New York city in 1880, um, Jacob Reese had yet not come along and began to photograph and document all of these things, but, uh, Elizabeth was aware of it and you couldn't not be aware of it.
Speaker 8 00:31:41 And so she from a family with money and with a certain prestige and, you know, the, the Dutch were still considered the aristocracy on the old Dutch families were certainly aristocracy in New York at the time, but she just is not of a mind to just play the game and her mother's insistence on craving, uh, you know, social, um, you know, advancement rubs her the wrong way as it, as so many young people rebel against their parents, but that's not so unusual. So that that's kind of what drives her. And she, she has her literary heroes and she, she wants to make a difference and she wants to, to, to break out at the mold,
Speaker 7 00:32:22 Uh, she get a job at the Herald New York Herald. And how does, uh, how does that start for her before she becomes a crime writer? She, uh, does some other stuff that is not as much interest or fun for her?
Speaker 8 00:32:39 Well she's, so her, father's a, father's a very wellknown judge, very respected judge downtown and, and near the court system, it was down downtown then, and it still is today. And, um, he works in a building, uh, which is still there, uh, right behind city hall in, in downtown Manhattan. And, um, so he pulls a few strings. He knows people, he knows the publisher, um, a very colorful guy called James Gordon Bennett, uh, junior. And he pulls a few strings with Bennett and says, you know, my daughter really like this job, but the only thing that they can really think of to do with her is to put her on the society page. So she, she goes to a party at Mrs. Astro's house and, you know, uh, PS around with couches and buy counts and, you know, people who care about dresses and carriages and jewelry and, you know, find food and wine. And she thinks that this is all just ridiculous. So, um, that's how she starts out, but cuz that's all she can get, you know, at the beginning
Speaker 7 00:33:42 Now she finds this body and she wants to write the story. Uh, how does that come about? How does she get the, um, not permission, but how does she get the assignment to write the story?
Speaker 8 00:33:55 Well, she goes to her editor and she basically lays it on the line. She says, um, you know, look, I've got this story. And uh, she has to actually go to another editor because her editor at the society page, um, you know, is not the right person. So she insists on being taken to the crime editor, very colorful Scottish fellow. And um, she says, you know, uh, look, I've got, I've got the inside scoop on this story. And it just so happens since she and Carla reported the story to the police. Uh, you know, she knows more, nobody knows anything about it at this point. It's completely, you know, it wasn't <laugh>, they didn't have Twitter back then <laugh> and then were these cell phones and there weren't people running around taking selfies, oh, here's me with the corpse and such, you know, so, so stories didn't emerge immediately then the way they do now.
Speaker 8 00:34:46 So the only people who know about it at this, on, at this early morning, weekday morning is Elizabeth Carla, and the police on the upper east side precinct that she calls to, you know, report what she is pretty sure is a crime. And so she she's got this incredible inside scoop and she goes to the police state, you know, and she knows she, she meets the police, uh, detective, you know, who's, who's gonna be looking into it. And so she's got all of this insider information, including the only person to see the body and its original mm-hmm <affirmative>, you know, state. And so she says to her editor, Hey, I story, but you know, guess what I want to cover it. And um, otherwise, you know, any other paper could scoop us. And in those days it was a huge thing getting scooped by another paper again, you know, it feels like today, everything just comes out all at once. You know, <laugh>, it's on Twitter, it's on Facebook, it's on, you know, CNN, oh look, but in those days it was, you know, reporters loaned the city, trying to be the first one to report on a story. So, so that's how she ends up with it. Her editor realizes he's got very little choice if wants, you know, a prime spot in the story. So he, he gives it to her with reservations, but he does it,
Speaker 7 00:36:03 She encounters a great deal of sexism that she's trying to do this story. Um, why don't you talk something about that?
Speaker 8 00:36:11 Well, again, you know, it's, uh, it's, it's, you know, the, the term toxic masculinity was not in the lexicon <laugh> and you know, women were, uh, really, they really had yet to break out of the roles that they had been assigned, which was some version of ki KKA, kinder, you know, which is church, kitchen children. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, I mean, that was what, what was expected, even high, high born women, you know, they could do without the kitchen. Sure. They didn't have to work in the kitchen, but you know, they were expected to have children and go to church and all the rest of it. So, um, Elizabeth, you know, just doesn't see herself that way, but, um, she has to deal with it. Uh, nonetheless,
Speaker 7 00:37:01 You must have done an awful lot of research to do this both, uh, uh, uh, about 1880 New York city and also, uh, Egyptian mythology, uh, comes into the book quite a bit. Um, uh, talk about the ways that you did the research and how that all came about.
Speaker 8 00:37:20 Well, the great thing about New York, I mean, it it's a two edge sword because I had researched Edinburgh, which is a city I know, but I, not a city. I, I live in obviously. Um, and I thought, well, you know, I'll be able to, to do similar research in New York. And I, it was like going down a rabbit hole. It's amazing. The history of the city is just so wide and so deep and almost from the beginning, it was so important to the history of this country. And, you know, it was just, it's vast and it's, it's amazing. And so my, my job was, was deeper and wider than I ever thought. And the fact that I live here didn't really ball that much. I mean, it meant I could prowl the streets and look for old buildings and, you know, but I still had to read and read and read, but what's great is that there's so much out there.
Speaker 8 00:38:09 There are so many fabulous websites and books and blogs and just, it's just, it's terrific. Um, they're Facebook, that's an entire book page. That's just voted to photographs of old New York. And there's also some places where you can actually see, um, you know, uh, uh, early, early films, uh, in the city. There's one amazing, uh, trip that you can take actually writing the entire length of the L uh, the second avenue L, which is figures pretty prominently in my story. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so, uh, it was just a, it was a great joy to like just like collect books and go to blogs and, you know, go to all these different websites. And you could, you could do it for the rest of your life and still not know everything that there is to know. So I, I figure if, if this writing thing doesn't work out, I'll just teach New York history on the side <laugh>
Speaker 7 00:39:06 And you knew a lot, or you bring out a lot about the neighborhoods in New York and the different, uh, levels of, of crime and goodness, and difficulty about living in New York, uh, at that time, talk about the neighborhoods to Islamic extent.
Speaker 8 00:39:22 Well, it, I, I was delighted to find I've been living in the east village for years now for, um, nearly half my life. Now I've been living in the east village and I love it here. And I knew that we had a history of resistance and a history of leftists and anarchists. And I knew all of this because even when I moved here, there were still anarchists living here. And, you know, and they're still kind of are in a way, you know, it's, it's always been a funky lefty, you know, place to live. Um, but I didn't realize the depth of, of, of what actually happened here. And some of the buildings are still in existence. Um, I, I didn't, you know, I didn't know much about the Tomkin square riots and of course, you know, Abraham Lincoln gave the famous address. Uh, I knew this, but I, you know, I did more research into it, um, at Cooper union, which is in my neighborhood, um, which is at as place basically, uh, Abraham Lincoln gave an address, which was widely credited with, uh, helping to land him the nomination of the Republican party when he was elected as president.
Speaker 8 00:40:31 And that took place just, oh, maybe half a half a mile from me. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and just let and layers of things like this kept coming up, you know, the, the German, uh, history of my neighborhood, my neighborhood was part of what was known as Kline, Deutschland. Um, you know, just a few blocks from me, Emma, Goldman, and Ambrose be hung out at a saloon, which is still in which the building is there and there's a plaque in front of it. And you can still go into the room where the saloon was held and a guy by the name of USTA Schwab, uh, was the saloon keep and famously, uh, ran through the part, ran through Tokin square, waving a flag, uh, during the famous riots, you know, protesting the, the police brutality coming down on the rioters, which, you know, is a whole story into itself.
Speaker 8 00:41:21 They were, they were given a, they were given permission, but then the permission was taken away at the last minute. And consequently, the police just came in and puled them for no reason. You know, I guess things don't change that much, but, um, just things like that. Now, when I go outside, I have such an appreciation of where I live and I have such pride in its history and what took place here and the people who lived here. I mean, it's thrilling to think of Emma Goldman, you know, <laugh> smoking her cigar just a quarter of a mile from my front door.
Speaker 7 00:41:56 Um, miss asked, I know, is based on a real person, I'm wondering which of the characters are based on historical figures and which sprang, uh, whole cloth from your imagination.
Speaker 8 00:42:09 Well, uh, Mrs. Asked of course is Mrs. As herself. Um, I hope her, her, uh, uh, um, uh, not, not her, you know, her, um, family living, family members don't Sue me. I don't think they will. She comes across pretty well, I think. Um, so Mrs. Astros real her son, Jack is real, uh, uh, also real is, uh, used to Schwab himself. Uh, the Salo keeper that I talked about also Thomas Burns, who was the chief of detectives had just been appointed. Mm. And who, interestingly to me, I forgot about this. I enjoyed Caleb cars, the AIST a lot when I read it. Oh yeah. Uh, and then I saw the, you know, series that they did. I forgot that Thomas Burns figured prominently in his story too. Um, he was played by the wonderful Ted Levine who, um, who had, has the distinction of having played Buffalo bill and the silence of the lambs, and then played Monk's boss on, on the monk series.
Speaker 8 00:43:16 And then later on played Thomas Burns in the, uh, in the aliens. So he's, he's got quite a career as a serial killer, you know, policeman and, uh, de uh, chief of detectives. So, um, so burns is definitely also a character in my story. And I don't treat him any better than Caleb Carr. Did I see him as a bit of a thug? He's the guy who originated the term the third degree, because he would, he thought nothing of puling a suspect into a confession. And of course in those days there were no security cams to catch that. So, you know, it was pretty common, but burns was burn was a, he was a complicated figure. He was very, he was a great groundbreaker and an innovator for sure, but he was also quite a thug. And he was also, you know, part of the Taney hall, uh, corruption, which continued well after boss Tweed died. I mean, he Taney hall, the corruption of hall didn't end when Bo Tweed left the earth, it continued on,
Speaker 7 00:44:22 Well, we only have a couple more minutes, unfortunately. So I would like you to, um, hopefully this is not a spoiler, but I was wondering if this is gonna be a series.
Speaker 8 00:44:33 Well, you know, I wish I could answer that. <laugh>, Uh, I would very much like it to be a series, but that's, and I I've left all kinds of little backstory tidbits sort of hanging. So there's some unanswered mysteries, you know, Elizabeths is a, at one point and we never learned the identity of her attacker. Um, I was leaving that for a later book. Um, but it's kind of up to my publisher, uh, as to what their next move is. Um, so I'm fingers crossed. I'd, I'd like to continue. I certainly have ideas for what the next story might be.
Speaker 7 00:45:08 And what else are you working on? And the, the next little while here?
Speaker 8 00:45:14 Well, uh, my, uh, play that I wrote about physics and about quantum physics actually is, um, has been optioned for an off Broadway production in New York. And that's scheduled at this point to open on August 22nd. So, uh, you know, I'll be in rehearsals <laugh> for that, you know, tweaking the script and, uh, you know, having a, helping, hopefully helping to get it on his seat. And, um, so I just found out about that a little while ago and, you know, I'm one, one has to keep one's hand in. So I, I, I, if I don't, if I don't immediately start working on a novel, I'll probably just I've been studying poetry. And, um, I, I know I I've, I've written and been published and won some awards, but, you know, I feel like there's room for improvement. And, um, I haven't, you know, uh, I feel it's, it's good to study. And so I'm reading a couple of really terrific books about the writing of poetry now. Um, one is B Mary Oliver, and, um, so I'll prob I'll probably work on some new poems.
Speaker 7 00:46:16 Well, thank you so much, Carol. We've been speaking to Carol Lawrence author of the wonderful book of CLEs dagger taking place in 1880, uh, and New York city. Uh, we appreciate you being with us tonight on radio, on radio, and thank you so much for a wonderful interview.
Speaker 8 00:46:36 Thank you so much, Liz. It was a great pleasure and you all take care and stay warm up there in chilly Northern Minnesota.
Speaker 7 00:46:43 <laugh> thank you very
Speaker 8 00:46:45 Much. Or, or, or, or, or as I, or Minnesota,
Speaker 7 00:46:47 Minnesota, Minnesota. Yeah, that's right. <laugh>
Speaker 8 00:46:50 Minnesota.
Speaker 7 00:46:51 Yeah. Take
Speaker 8 00:46:52 Care up there.
Speaker 7 00:46:53 Yes, you betcha. Don't
Speaker 8 00:46:55 Let those Canadians come down and tell you what to do. Eh,
Speaker 7 00:46:58 No, a okay, thanks a lot, Carol. Uh, we really appreciate you.
Speaker 11 00:47:12 You are listening to right on radio on cafe nanny 0.3, FM and streaming live on the
[email protected]. I'm Josh Weber. I'd like to thank our special guest tonight, Chris stark and Carol Lawrence and all our listeners without your support and donations K would not be possible. You are listening right now to ran radio. You can find more news in
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