Speaker 1 00:01:41 Emily. Hi Elizabeth.
Speaker 2 00:01:44 Hey Liz.
Speaker 1 00:01:44 Um, I just wanna let people know that we're speaking with Elizabeth, Jart Andrew author of swinging on the garden gate, a spiritual memoir, which has just been re-released. So, um, before we get into the meat of the spiritual memoir part, well, yes, the spiritual memoir part. Could you explain briefly to people the difference between a memoir and an autobiography and what makes your memoir a spiritual memoir?
Speaker 2 00:02:11 Absolutely. Yeah. So a memoir is, um, well actually it's easier to start with autobiography and autobiography is a, a document, uh, that narrates a life. It usually is, uh, thorough. It begins at the beginning and gives a full accounting of the events of the life progresses. Chronologically autobio auto autobiographies are often considered historical documents. Um, they're straight non-fiction. Um, memoir on the other hand is a personal narrative that can begin wherever it wants to and end wherever it wants to. It's usually thematically organized. Um, and memoir usually has, you know, even though you're telling a true story about your life, it's usually organized around some question or theme. And so it's looking through the events of your life at, um, at some philosophical question or some exploration about life, the nature of the nature of life itself, spiritual, the spiritual life, its theme. And so that's, what's the organizing principle for, for my memoir
Speaker 1 00:03:36 For of
Speaker 2 00:03:37 Sure. Yeah. I thought I would read the opening pages of the book. Every story begins with a word, a daunting word, a word that Mars, the blank white page or inks, the air a word has upright bones and sins. It's created the way a body is created from dirt and spit. It walks about relating to other words until it is a part of an extended thought or metaphor or entire narrative telling how the world began. The world began in chaos like a rough draft. It began with the faith. That creation is good. Once I carried within me a word so potent that it spread through every artery in vein until my tongue swelled with silence, I carried it into the faculty lounge at the middle school, where conversation ranged from marriage to the two car garage. The words at rock hard in my stomach, beside the cafeteria lunch, I wolfed down in 22 minutes.
Speaker 2 00:04:42 I carried it with me through the quarters where one student called another queer and sent me raging dragging him into the classroom by his shirt sleeve angled against the Blackboard arms crossed. He defied me with his eyes. My red faced fury didn't go far. I forced down the real word and ranted instead about inappropriate behavior and put downs. I carried it with me through three years of semester reviews with my principal. As we hassled over the inclusive range of paperbacks on my classroom shelves, she was always cordial. The books that passed muster were those that didn't make any waves sitting before her wide desk. The boundaries of my body became retaining walls. While inside raged the title wave of a word, I carried my word into Sunday worship with a liberal congregation in the heart of Minneapolis adult education. That morning was a panel discussion on bisexuality should the church's statement of intentional welcome, include bisexuals alongside gays and lesbians.
Speaker 2 00:05:47 My eyes widened as several people described their experiences of being drawn to men and women and made a case for celebrating the expanse of diversity of God's creation. The word inside me turned restless and eager. I wanted to grow on my spiritual journey to move forward. After years of stasis. And I had a hunch that speaking my word would set me in motion. I was terrified coming out in any form, cracks the world open. When we come out, we take a buried truth and inward reality residing near the soul and pull it to the surface where it Rex havoc on every perpetuated falsehood. We yank a piece of our existence out into the air, transforming in the process, the self we thought we were as well as the community around us. I came out bisexual claiming with pride God's presence and the unique desires of my body. But as soon as I could recognize incarnation within my own skin, it was everywhere else as well. In my past, in the landscape, in each object, in the story itself, the middle school where I taught seventh grade English, couldn't accept my word, but thank heavens. My church did. And now the religious contingent marching in pride in the pride parade is one person longer larger where the word is spoken. The huge creaking wheels of creation begin to
Speaker 1 00:07:16 Elizabeth, Jared, Andrew, beginning from swinging on the garden gate, the spiritual memoir. This is being re-released right now. Am I, am I right about that?
Speaker 2 00:07:26 It is, yeah. It came out in, um, July.
Speaker 1 00:07:32 Can I ask how long ago you wrote it first?
Speaker 2 00:07:36 Yeah, well, I started writing it in 1992 and it was published in 2000. So this is its 22nd anniversary of, um, being out. And I'm really excited that it's out again. The, when I, when it had been out of print for a while and when, uh, it was approaching the 20th anniversary, I thought, you know, it bugs me that it's not about in the world because it did really good work for a while. And, um, and so I planned to so publish it a second, you know, this time, but just on a whim, I contacted my editor at Skinner house and I said, any chance, you'd be interested in reissuing it. And she, and the board, um, conferred. And they decided actually they think that it's more timely today than it was 22 years ago. And so they wanted to give it another shot. So I feel really excited by that and a little sad, actually. <laugh> sad.
Speaker 1 00:08:44 Why sad?
Speaker 2 00:08:45 Well, because it means that, um, you know, there's actually just as few books out there about bisexuality and spirituality as there were 22 years ago. And, and that's, you know, in some ways things have really changed in other ways they haven't. So, so I'm just glad that my, my book can be a voice to explore that intersection
Speaker 1 00:09:08 And coming out bisexual really is the through line. I'm wondering, uh, uh, I'm, I'm wondering what inspired you to write this in the beginning? Uh, such a long time ago? Uh, it, it seems to me it would've been very difficult thing to be facing to come out like this in a book.
Speaker 2 00:09:31 Yeah. Well, I mean, I came out first in my relationships, but, um, but actually that's not true because it I'm a writer and I write to find out what I think and feel. And so, um, so I was writing this story as a way to understand myself and, um, so in many ways I wrote myself out of the closet. Then I came out of the closet. I, you know, I hadn't shared the writing with anyone. Um, although when I came out to my parents, I also handed them a bunch of pages <laugh> um, so, so really it was, uh, a way for me to, um, reach clarity about myself and kind of revisit my past, you know, whenever you realize something new about yourself, that's been true all along. You kind of have to go back and rewrite your past memories in light of that truth. And, um, so this book was a way for me to do that. Um, and then at some point it was no longer about self discovery, but about making a whole, um, making a unity of my experience and, um, and really wanting to explore what it means to be embodied spirit, especially in this bisexual body. So, um, so that's when it leap out of the personal realm into what I think is really a, a bigger conversation than a book.
Speaker 1 00:11:09 And who did you want your audience to be? Who are you thinking of when you wrote it, uh, bisexual folks who needed help coming out or, uh, just the world in general, who needed some education or what, what was your, uh, audience did you feel?
Speaker 2 00:11:25 Well, my first audience was my younger self. I, I wrote for that young woman who was alone and frightened and confused. And, um, so, so in some way that I was in conversation with my former self and, um, and I believed that there are many aspects of that younger self that are out and about in the world <laugh>, and that, um, that there would be readers who carry those aspects to some degree. So, um, so I was writing for them, but then as I got deeper into the revision process and, um, and it became more than just a personal memoir, um, I was thinking about, um, my parents and all parents of queer people who, especially if you're raised in Christianity, there's a lot of bad doctrine out there, hard doctrine out there, um, that, um, it takes some theological, um, astuteness, I suppose, to, to, um, understand how you can be Christian and believe that you're made in God's image, um, and be by and be bisexual.
Speaker 2 00:12:59 So I was thinking about parents of queer people. Um, but, but mostly, and then certainly in the reprint of it, I was thinking about this, you know, these younger generations of, um, of people, queer people who, who feel very alienated from the church, from, from religion in general, I was one of the impetus behind republishing was I was asked by, um, couple of Wisconsin, two year colleges to come and speak to their GLBT Q a groups. And, um, and at both of those colleges, I was asked by young people in the audience, is it possible to be queer and Christian, is it really possible to be queer and spiritual? And, um, and those questions just were wrenching to me. I mean, just that there's such a divide between queer identity and faith or, you know, or spirituality, you know, like every human being has a spiritual dimension and faith is a given it's like part of being human.
Speaker 2 00:14:10 Um, you know, whether it's a traditional religious faith or, or not, we all have faith because we all orient ourselves in the world. So to, to be that removed from that dimension of your humanity is just tragic. And I think that that's really, um, the fault of Christianity and, and, and not just Christianity, but many religions that have re ejected rejected the, their queer members. And, um, and, and then as a result, the queer communities have been, um, ardently Antifa and, um, ardently secular. And so, um, so there's, there's quite a rift between those communities. And, um, so I really wanted to see this book out in the world because it's a dialogue between, between both aspects that are really integral to who I am. And, and I think who, who we all are <laugh> right. We all are sexual beings that we all have, um, have a dimension of faith and spirit. Um, so how do they, how do they intersect and, and how do we understand them? And this is just my, my understanding,
Speaker 1 00:15:30 What was it like to come out to your church? And, and, uh, how did they respond and accept you or not re accept you? Or how did that happen?
Speaker 2 00:15:41 Yeah, well, I have a really unusual story because, um, I had just, I, I picked my church after I graduated from college. I joined a church and I picked it because it was reconciling cuz I, I think I, in some part of my subconscious knew that I was gonna explore my sexual identity. And um, and I write in the book about this early, um, adult education session that I attended. They were already welcoming of gays and lesbians and they were wondering, should we intentionally welcome bisexuals and transgender people into our congregation? And so they had a panel of BIS and BI and trans people, um, speaking about their faith stories and they were the most remarkable people. It was so inspiring. And um, and I can't really believe this but that, but I think that that was the first time I ever heard the word bisexual spoken out loud and owned.
Speaker 2 00:16:46 And when the buys on that panel described their experiences, I thought that's it <laugh>. So in some ways I learned about bisexuality from my church and when I stood up in, um, I actually came out in joys and concerns, which is this part of a Methodist worship where you, where the congregation offers its prayers. Um, and when I stood up and came out bisexual to my congregation, everyone was super happy and welcoming. And um, so I have a very unusual story that way. And, um, and that it gets even more unusual because even though my parents had a hard time at first, it was a really big adjustment. Eventually my mom became, uh, leader in the reconciling movement in the United Methodist church, which is, uh, a movement to get the United Methodist church to change it's GLBT, GLBT, Q a policies. Um, and, um, so she was, uh, she became a real activist. Um, and yeah, I was awfully proud of her <laugh> so, um, so I think because of that, because, because I have really a D very different experience from what the vast majority of queer Christians experience, um, I, I do feel some obligation to, um, to share my story and to share how significant it has been to be nurtured and loved by a church, um, just as a, a model for what's possible. And I think what's right.
Speaker 1 00:18:26 How did writing the memoir change you? It took many years and I'm sure your spirituality changed and perhaps matured over that time.
Speaker 2 00:18:37 Yeah, very much so. Um, you know, I wrote my way of the closet. I, I feel like I wrote my way into my voice. Um, there's something about writing a memoir that really helps you integrate, um, and get perspective on whatever the topic is that you're exploring. And, um, and I, before that, um, you know, I, I was shy, not very confident, um, and very, yeah, kind of a quiet person and, and writing the memoir kind of put some pieces together internally for me that really allowed me to, um, stand up and own my story publicly, um, use my voice more confidently, um, and be more of a public presence. So, so in some ways like the book itself was not, not, not, not the success of the book, not the publishing the book, but the writing of the book, the figuring things out through the writing became a platform that I could really stand on. Um, and, and that's really been true ever since that, um, it just kind of the end result was that I knew myself better. <laugh> and, um, and that's a significant thing that has consequences that continue to play out for me.
Speaker 1 00:20:13 There's so many parts of your story. Um, I'm thinking about your bike trip through whale, which we, uh, won't talk about. Uh, well, let's talk about that. How did that change you? Did that bring you closer to your God, uh, traveling on a bike through Wales, or, uh, did it make you less lonely or more lonely? How did that affect you?
Speaker 2 00:20:36 Yeah, so I spent a month biking alone and, and I was 21 at that time and I had never done anything like that before. In fact, I had hardly spent any time alone. I may not have spent any time at all alone <laugh> until then, actually now that I think about it, you know, maybe a day or two here and there, but, um, it was in many ways my first retreat, um, and there's something powerful about deep solitude, especially for a young person who hasn't experienced it. Um, so that trip was, I, I also was completely inexperienced it, uh, traveling by myself, I was inexperienced it getting exercise. I had no muscles <laugh> whatsoever. And so I set off on this bike ride in the mountains, woefully unprepared. Um, and so, um, so what was interesting about it was as I strengthened my body, um, as I learned to be, you know, to move through loneliness, I was incredibly lonely, especially at first, but I learned to move through loneliness, to solitude and, and kind of a place of peace with solitude.
Speaker 2 00:22:04 Um, I built the muscles in my body. I, um, and then in that solitude, I faced some real fear, um, you know, fear of being a woman on the road alone. Um, fear of the natural elements. I slept through a terrible storm on the coast and, um, and, um, pushed the limits of my body. And so, so I learned a lot about myself. Um, and in that solitude, I had space to, I had been in a relationship with a guy before that, and I had space in that solitude to ask the hard questions that I couldn't ask when I was in the middle of that relationship and really listen to my desires. And, um, and so I just, I learned a lot about who I am, um, on that trip.
Speaker 1 00:23:10 Cool. Let me check out something with Annie. Annie, are you there?
Speaker 3 00:23:15 I sure am. What's up.
Speaker 1 00:23:17 I was thinking maybe we could just keep on going to the top of the hour since, uh, uh, since we got started late, uh, I'll just keep going until somebody yells at me to stop.
Speaker 3 00:23:26 Oh, keep going. We don't have anything planned for the other half of the hour, so please just keep going.
Speaker 1 00:23:31 Oh, okay, great. Um, I wanted to especially talk to you about the, uh, the time that you were in the faith community, and especially when you first got there, how you lost everything you've owned in a fire, and I'm wondering how that affected your relationship with God. Uh, and if you got mad or sad or, you know, what you thought about God after that happened.
Speaker 2 00:24:04 So I, um, I'll preface my answer by saying that I'm not, or at, at that point. And, and certainly today, I, I wasn't someone who thinks that God can kind of inter intervene with, um, kind of the natural law physical laws and make things happen so, um, or intervene and not make things happen. And certainly, um, that, that kind of day six mock in a God is, is not something that I'm, I am personally familiar with. I mean, certainly it's out in the culture. Um, so, so when the fire happened, I mean there, so basically I had all my belongings stored in the garage and the garage burned because of a faulty ignition in the car. And, um, and it was a huge fire. Um, so when that happened, like it was a period of terrible grief because I lost all my writing. I lost all my photos.
Speaker 2 00:25:16 I lost, you know, really important gifts, like my grandmother's Afghan and quilt from my mom. And, you know, so, so, so some terrible grief and especially around my journals. Um, but, and, and I was incredibly angry <laugh> so, but I was angry at the, um, I was angry at the, the automobile manufacturer who, you know, it was a, it was a fault in the manufacturing and apparently they knew about it. And, um, and that there, you know, statistics that showed that this car had this fault, but, um, didn't take ownership and didn't compensate anything. And, you know, so, so I was really angry, but in terms of my relationship with God, I mean, that was, it was kind of a question, cuz you always in the middle of grief kind of wonder like what is going on with this world. <laugh>, it's like a really screwed up hard place to be.
Speaker 2 00:26:22 Um, and at that point, my sense of God really was of this, um, a sense of a being outside of myself. My, my sense of God has really changed since then. But, um, but, um, there was one moment after the fire, when I was out kind of walking through the hot ashes or, and looking, looking for anything that survived. And I looked up and there were these five Norwegian Pines that had surrounded the barn. Um, and they were all seared up the insides. You know, they, they AC a couple of them burned their tops and, but they're all seared up the insides of their trunks. And, um, and I walked up to one and it was just oozing sta SAP out of the wound of the, of the burn and that image, you know, I, I just, I felt so strongly in that moment that the tree was weeping, um, that the tree was hurt too.
Speaker 2 00:27:29 And that hit me really powerfully as kind of the sense of God or the divine or the universe accompanying me being present to, to this loss and grieving with me. Um, so that's, that was a deep comfort to me at that moment that it wasn't, that God made it happen or, you know, like it's just the world's is set emotion and awful things happen. Um, but I felt probably the sense of grief and presence that was beyond me. That was part of the natural world part of the part of divinity and with me through my grief. Um, so today I would say that that, that, um, divine presence was that I recognized in the tree was also very much in me that, um, that, um, that sacred part of the world always Wes at loss and, um, and always is angry at injustice <laugh> and is with us in, in our, um, our anger and our sadness
Speaker 1 00:28:52 And people came through for you.
Speaker 2 00:28:55 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:28:57 Yep. You talk in the book about, uh, books that people, uh, sent you, and there's a particularly moving passage about a pair of shoes that you, uh, received. So, uh, it's nice to hear that people came through for you. And that, I mean, I think that's sacred too. I mean, that, that is actually in my mind how God presents God's self to me anyway, as other people. Um, how has your life, what has happened in your life since, I mean, I know this is a huge question, but I, I imagine there are a few special things that have happened in your life since, since the book was originally released that, uh, have moved you forward spiritually and changed you and caused you to grow and mature. What kinds of things have happened?
Speaker 2 00:29:45 Oh gosh, well, um, I got married <laugh> I fell in love, got married. Um, my partner had a very serious form of cancer and almost died. And, um, so we came through that, uh, illness together. We adopted a kid, she grew up <laugh> she's 13.
Speaker 1 00:30:07 Wow. She's 13.
Speaker 2 00:30:09 13. Yeah, my goodness. Yeah. I've lost my parents. So yeah, lots happened since then.
Speaker 1 00:30:19 What was it like to lose your parents? I, I, uh, that's, that's a hard thing to become a, an orphan at, uh, at middle age.
Speaker 2 00:30:28 Yeah. It's, it's a hard thing. Yeah. I'm still in that, that transition for sure.
Speaker 1 00:30:38 You have taught and been a spiritual director, um, are these things that you're, uh, kind of semi-retired from, uh, what caused you to make that choice?
Speaker 2 00:30:49 Yeah, so, no, I'm still, I'm still, um, teaching right now. I'm taking a little sabbatical because I've got a big creative project. Actually. I've got two big creative projects in the work that need a little space, but yeah, it continued to teach creative writing, particularly as a spiritual practice. I'm really interested in revision and taking a project through many layers of, um, of drafts and, um, and how as we transform our text, we can transform ourselves. Um, so I'm less and less interested in, um, writing for the sake of, or, you know, or teaching writing for the sake of only making art or only publishing and, and, um, getting a readership and, um, much more interested in how a commitment to making art also is, um, an opportunity for us to grow as human beings and become more fully who we're, who we are, um, to continue to come out, so to speak and to ourselves.
Speaker 2 00:32:05 And so, um, so for me, um, teaching writing is, is really about a means of, um, of becoming more fully ourselves and also making manifest in the world around us, our vision for it, for the world. So, um, so that intersection between which, um, writing does for us personally, and what it can do for our communities and our readership is, um, is really where I, where I'm thriving. Um, but I'm kind of like that trip in Wales. I think that that early experience of retreat has taught me that it's important to step back and take time apart to regroup before, uh, launching into something else. And so, um, so I'm taking a, I, I should say that I am still teaching. And in fact, I'm teaching an introduction to spiritual memoir this Sunday at wisdom ways. I'm sorry, the Saturday. Um, and so, so it's not that I'm completely not teaching, but I'm not doing my regular classes for, for this next semester.
Speaker 1 00:33:13 Well, I think we kind of finish up with this. We might have time for one more question after this, but this might be a big answer. I'm wondering in this political climate, how you feel your memoir is relevant and can be of assistance to people at this difficult time.
Speaker 2 00:33:34 Yeah, that's a great question. Um, that's I think really part of the reason that I wanted to put it out again and why Skinner house agreed is that the political climate means that, um, G L B T Q a rights are, are threatened again. And, um, and the Christian right. Is very powerful. It, um, and at the same time, there's a lot of people suffering inside of fundamental Christianity. And, um, and my hope is that the readers who, who are suffering, who are struggling with their sexual identity, um, can find a companion, um, on the journey in this book, a loving companion that, um, that, um, can uplift their truth. And, um, and also perhaps, um, pro you know, proclaim a, a, a loving universe at a loving divinity that, um, that is, I think quite contrary to the, um, punitive God that is often taught in, in conservative Christianity. So, so, yeah, I mean, I think I hope that it's a voice for, um, for a different way of being a faithful Christian.
Speaker 1 00:35:08 Ah, <laugh>, this has been a wonderful interview. I, uh, am wondering if you're gonna write another spiritual memoir someday,
Speaker 2 00:35:18 You know, um, that's, I'm sure I will. I have, I've written lots of essays since mm-hmm, <affirmative> sweet on the garden gate that, um, have a real strong spiritual memoir bench. They always include some memoir. Um, although I tend to, when essays be a little bit more philosophical,
Speaker 1 00:35:36 You actually have a book that was nominated for, uh, the Minnesota book award. What, what was the name of that book? And
Speaker 2 00:35:43 That's called on the, yeah, yeah. That one's called on the threshold and it's a collection of personal essays and that one's outta print, but you can get it through Amazon.
Speaker 1 00:35:54 Ah,
Speaker 2 00:35:54 Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:35:58 Well, this has been a wonderful interview. Elizabeth, we've been speaking with Elizabeth Jart Andrew author of many books, including, uh, some books on revision. Uh, before we go talk about revision, I know you're a lover of revision and you have two books about writing and one of them is specifically about revision. What, what does that mean to you?
Speaker 2 00:36:20 Yeah, so the book is called living revision. A writer's craft is spiritual practice and, um, so revision is literally seeing again, and to me, that's what it means to be fully alive is to always be seeing the world with new eyes. Um, so I love revision because it's a craft practice that forces us to see with new eyes and it gives us all kinds of exercise in, um, stepping back and letting go of former ways of seeing things and, um, practicing, um, new ways of seeing things. So that's, that's a skill talking about political climates. I mean, the, the capacity to, um, to question your own perceptions and, um, your own meaning, the meaning that you put on your story to kind of extract yourself from your own beliefs and call them into question and revisit them, and then take another stab at, um, at putting them together again, um, that takes a lot of humility and I think that's a, a very important muscle for us to exercise right now. Um, so that's why I'm such a proponent of revision is because I think it exercises that, that muscle, that, um, that makes us available for growth and, um, better able to talk to each other <laugh> um, and, um, you know, practice, humility and, um, and take risks. So that, that's why I like revision so much is that there's just all sorts of, of, um, spiritual skill that comes spiritual skills that emerge from the practice of revision.
Speaker 1 00:38:18 You had one big thing in your mind to say about swinging on the garden gate, both the original and this, uh re-release um, what would it be? What, what can we glean from this book?
Speaker 2 00:38:36 I think we can glean that matter and spirit are far more intertwined or perhaps not separate at all <laugh> than we imagine, um, that, that, um, we tend to elevate spirit as kind of separate from the material world. But I think, I think our essence is so intertwined with our bodies and, um, and the essence of creation is so intertwined with the natural world that, um, there inextricable and there's, there's something very challenging and beautiful about that.
Speaker 1 00:39:19 Oh, thank you for a wonderful interview. We've been speaking with Elizabeth Jart Andrew author of swinging on the garden gate, which has just been rereleased. And, uh, now we're gonna go back to Annie and do the calendar. Thank you so much, Elizabeth. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:39:34 Thank you, Liz. It's good talking with you again.
Speaker 1 00:39:36 Yeah, so it's good to talk to you too. And now this,
Speaker 3 00:39:56 You are listening to write on radio on K I 90.3 FM in streaming, live on the
[email protected]. I'm Annie. I'd like to thank Liz and our special guest tonight, Elizabeth Jarret, Andrew, and all our listeners without your support and donations cafe, I would not be possible. You can find more news and info about right on
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