Speaker 0 00:00:00 <inaudible>
Speaker 1 00:00:42 You're listening to right on radio on KPI 90.3 FM and streaming live on the
[email protected]. I'm Liz old and Mandy Harvey tonight on, right on radio. Ian Graham, Lisa talks with John <inaudible> author of self divided in 1995, John <inaudible> and his identical twin brother participated in a gene therapy study in which the HIV positive twin was infused with billions of genes from the HIV negative twin. This memoir details from a firsthand perspective, a time in our recent history, when the world had to reckon with the emergence of a seemingly undefeatable virus
Speaker 0 00:01:26 And I'm Josh in the second part of our show, Liz olds, we'll be talking with bill Shenay, author of chairman and the board recording. The soundtrack of a generation chairman of the board is an intimate, funny, and absorbing. Look at the music business by an insider. Shanae has engineered for such artists as Barbara Streisand, the Jacksons Marvin Gaye, the pointer, sisters, boss Scaggs and many others. He received a Grammy for his engineering of winning Houston's mega hits. I will always love you. He currently lives in Franklin, Tennessee with his wife, Sally, all the, some more. So stay tuned to write on radio. Dean, are you there? I am here. All right. You were on the air
Speaker 2 00:02:14 And I am here as well. Good. Okay, John, off you go with that piece of reading that you've done, it is. Sure. Thank you. As with most identical twins, the first person singular does not exist because our stories are inseparable. The closest to my is our, our story begins with us. And then over time, I'm sorry. Could you say that again? Keep reading John. I'm sorry. Our story begins with us living in an overcrowded apartment. Hold on John. You guys need to turn off your mics. So John can read. Go ahead. Should I start over? Just start over there.
Speaker 3 00:03:16 Thank you. As with most identical twins, the first person singular does not exist because our stories are inseparable. The closest to my is our, our story begins with us living in an overcrowded apartment. Mom and dad are two oldest sisters, my brother, Bobby and I six total at an early age, I became aware of the symmetry in our family though. I did not know that symmetry was the word for it at the time dad and two boys, mom, and two girls. There's a sense of balance. When looking at us from this perspective, then there's the realization I have of the number two, Bobby and I. We were two. He was born two minutes before I was two years before that our sister Debbie was born two years before that our sister Donna was born two minutes, two years, two years, two girls, two boys, two twins.
Speaker 3 00:04:11 I grew to like math. It began there in a clear, on a clear summer morning in mid may, in utero as with all twins. It's ironic to say that we were born at the same time. When for nine months before our birth, we occupied the same space, the womb and egg divided, one fertilized egg, finding the need to split itself in half, perhaps to rebel against itself, perhaps to stand alone. Some, any other, perhaps it was his wish. So my brother tore the egg in half the way a knife, tears that flesh after all, he always was more aggressive. Well, perhaps it was my wish because I feared what life would be like facing it alone without him knowing even then that I needed him. We godless there. We were identical twins in the making split in half from the very beginning of our conception.
Speaker 3 00:05:07 Even in the womb, our bodies took shape and glue in silent competition. My hand pushing on his belly, his foot kicking my arm. We were crowded in that mutual space with me, closer to our mother's heartbeat him closer to the birth canal. Even then there was no escaping each other. We became as real to each other as the fluid that nurtured us today. I think of what it was like for us in that shared space squeezed together in that dark universe, feeling that once we were born, we would be with of the other forever. We don't remember the story, but we remember what we were told. And perhaps it was nothing like this at all, but because we remember it this way, it remains that way forever. This much as fact, the pictures taken when we were infants and like us, they are identical closed eyes, knit hats on our heads.
Speaker 3 00:06:05 And each of our tiny bodies wrapped in blankets with elephants, playing drums and trumpets as if elephants had such talent. But the one feature different in each of the photographs can be seen on our left feet. One of us we don't know, which has a toe with fingernail Polish on it, such a minor detail undetectable to most, but this detail, which somehow define us for years to come and haunt us for the rest of our lives. It was just fingernail Polish associated with little girls whose parents wanted them to grow up too fast, fingernail Polish, a convenience for others to tell us apart, we don't know what color it was because the photograph is black and white, but it was certainly closer to black than white, a light, a lighter shade of black, most likely read for years, we would argue over this photograph as if admission to wearing the Polish or akin to confessing far greater taboos.
Speaker 3 00:07:06 And our parents will always keep the secret of who was forced to wear the Polish. Although it no longer matters. All that matters now is that it once mattered. And while we shall never know whose toenail was painted, we will remember this. The tenement where we grew up was in the middle of the block of the street of a P street, a street, which held a certain power in its name, a name that was both appropriate, like a Catholic Luther Catholic hospital, standing on the corner and ironic because the neighborhood like our house was anything but peaceful and our not so current trends, you know, not so tranquil home with sirens passing by regularly, we had the largest room in the house and everyone, even the guests who rarely visited, had to walk through it to get to any other room with our parents in one bedroom and the girls and the other, this large transformed dining room became ours as infants together in the same crib, we were oblivious to the boundaries between us.
Speaker 3 00:08:10 It was impossible to tell where one of us ended and where the other began and we welcomed the fusion and confusion gracefully, peacefully, sucking each other's thumb back then we made sounds to imitate in our private world, the loud universe around us. Some say, it's a private code. All scientists call it crypto. Phasia a secret language used only by twins to communicate with each other one night in December, 1965. When we were all of six months old, we knew exactly what to do when our parents tried to quiet us by separating our cribs and putting them on opposite sides of the room, lights out, mild Clouder little. Did they know that early, the next morning, after a night of restless sleep, they would find both cribs together in the center of the room. As though we had never been separated at all.
Speaker 4 00:09:08 Wonderful and a very good reading. You've been listening to self divided a memoir by John Madeiras. Um, it's the winner of the howling howling bird press non-fiction. Um, John is a poet and memoirist identical trainers you've just seen and a lawyer. He's the author of couplets for a shrinking world and co editor of queer voices, poetry, prose, and pride. His work has appeared in numerous anthologies and literary journals. And these are the recipient of two Minnesota state hospital grants, Gulf coasts nonfiction award, and the AWP intro journals award. His works have been nominated for a Minnesota book award and recognized as a notable essay, best American essays. He has an MFA and a JD from having university and he lives in Minneapolis with his husband and their pets. Fantastic. Great to have you back on the show, John. Good to be here. What a wonderful book. My goodness. I don't even know where to start asking questions about this because it's just so rich for somebody to come in and try and interview you about this work. Um, you know, twins, gayness, horoscopes numbers, uh, HIV and COVID, um, balanced disbalance um, uh, wow. I don't even so much here what a rich read. This is. I, I, um, you know, highly recommend this book, where do we start? I think possibly you should, you should just try and, um, get our listeners to understand what the book is generally about.
Speaker 3 00:11:01 Yeah, sure. I can certainly do that. Um, this book actually believe it or not started out as a poem and, um, my poems tend to be rather narrative. And when I was in my MFA program at Hamlin, I took the poem and I added more narrative and more narrative and more narrative and realized that what I was really trying to do was create a non-fiction story that was very lyrical. Um, and also one that was, was able to show the reader how I perceive my narratives. And so there's poetry in this book. There's lyricism in this book. I also use white space in this book, the way that poets use white space as part of the narrative. And so there's all that in there, but basically what the narrative itself is about is, um, I obviously am an identical twin and I have learned throughout the years that there are stories that I have, that I can not separate from my brother.
Speaker 3 00:12:04 And then there are stories that I have that make me independent from my brother and a large part of my life was that journey to find independence and find my own voice. And I knew that what I wanted to do with this book was raise the question of how we claim identity when we're always a part of someone else's identity. That's really the crux of this book. And I raised that question by using my own personal narrative. So I raised that question from the perspective and identity of an identical twin. So there were moments in the book where my narrative is my brother's narrative. And, and in those moments in this book, the, the, the page reads like any other book that you would read the full page with, with normal margin. And then there were times in my story where I am really trying to separate myself from my brother and be my own voice and be my own person and be seen as my own person when others around us really just see twins as an extension of each other.
Speaker 3 00:13:15 And so when the narrative becomes my own narrative, which is separate from my brother on the page, there's a, there's an indent on the right. It initially was a half a column, but we made it a little bit more than half, just so the reader would know, could pick up the book at any time and know exactly where the voice was coming from. And, and I knew that there were stories that were mine and I embraced those. And, and so there are moments in the book that, that I experienced things that, that helped define me as a person that is a person unique from my brother. And those moments include, um, my homosexuality and coming to terms with that and an HIV diagnosis when I was 25 years old and coming to terms with that, um, those were two significant moments in my life where I felt I could embrace those.
Speaker 3 00:14:12 And I could approach those as a Singleton that's as opposed to an identical twin. And in the book, I, I come to terms with that and come to terms with my homosexuality, I've come to terms with my HIV diagnosis. In fact, I, I refer to my HIV as a lover who will be with me for the rest of my life. And that's exactly a color POS many times. And then, and then what happens is it's only when I get to the point of being this self actualized individual person, do I find myself in an experimental treatment at the national institutes of health where I'm being infused with 10 billion of my identical twins selves in a gene therapy study as a treatment for HIV, and that's how the book ends. And so, um, so there's that, that hospital thread throughout it as all as well.
Speaker 4 00:15:08 Yeah. Tell us, uh, tell us, uh, ahead of the game, because we're going to be nervous about this and unless you do, uh, where, where is your HIV right now and, and did the therapy with your brother helped him?
Speaker 3 00:15:22 Oh, uh, thank you. Um, my HIV right now is completely managed. Uh, HIV has become a much more manageable disease over the years. Um, the, the, the, the study that I was in was took place when I was, it started when I was 28 years old. So it was, it was, so the book is really set. The hospital seems to set in the mid nineties where, when, when it was still, you know, a death sentence for many people, one of the reasons why I entered the study was because the medications that I were taken, they, um, my body, so it became resistant to them. And, and there was a time when many of us were just waiting for the next treatment to be approved by the FDA before we could have any hope that we were going to make it. And so, um, so fortunately there's been many, many, many treatment modalities approved over the years.
Speaker 3 00:16:19 And, uh, my, my health is, is, um, is good. It's controlled my status. My HIV is undetectable in my system, and I, and I'm fortunate to fortunate to be able to say that, um, the study itself was, um, a gene therapy study, where they took my identical twins selves and infused them with something that would make them uninfected. And then, because we had the same genetic makeup, they would infuse my brothers, they would grow my brother's cells and then infuse those cells in me. And the idea was that I would produce these, these uninfected cells, um, without it disrupting the genetic code, because we share the same genetic code. Um, this study was just a small part of a much larger study that looked at other illnesses as well. So there were similar studies for cancers and similar studies for, um, blood diseases. And so the idea was that ultimately the NIH would create this super cell that, that was uninfected will for lots of diseases.
Speaker 3 00:17:33 And then, and then those cells will be reproduced and given to people to keep them healthy and strong for and help them live longer in our, in our subset, which the HIV study. Um, my brother and I, there was actually a section in the book where I write about this for the, um, of course, most studies have to have a placebo group, right. And so, uh, we were, we were unfortunate or fortunate enough to be part of the placebo group. It's odd that they actually tell you if you're getting modified genes or not. And I remember they, um, they notified us, my brother and I, my brother and me, and they told us that we would be part of the control group. So we would not be getting modified genes. So what I was getting was just a bunch of his genes, his cells that were not modified.
Speaker 3 00:18:26 And, um, and that helped them. And it's interesting because even today they could, they could pull my blood and they could check to see which cells came from me and which cells went look, where was he from my brother? Because they did add a vector, but they didn't, um, they didn't modify those genes. And so, um, it didn't help with treatment of HIV, but also, I would say that other people in the study who did get modified genes, it didn't seem to help them either, but it did, it did answer other questions for the researchers, but it wasn't an, uh, a treatment for HIV.
Speaker 4 00:19:04 It was so fascinating. So that's some of the medical part of this, but let's get some of the spookier stuff. I've always very spooky. I think I told you that when we spoke to you earlier, always thought that, uh, and partly, I think it was because they, they did have their own language and a kind of telepathy between them. And, uh, towards the end of that section that you just read, uh, these two boys, um, come together, they literally do not want to be a part and they pull their cribs together in the middle of the room. And they're only six months old now, I'm sure you don't remember that, but do you still have that kind of synergy between you, you and your brother?
Speaker 3 00:19:55 You know, a lot of people think that, you know, when you get questions, like if, if I hit you, does your brother feel it? And, you know, th th those are kind of silly questions, but I will say that there are moments in our lives where we just feel like we have to reach out to the other. And, um, maybe I haven't heard from my brother. I might reach out to him. I think he might be needing to hear from me in lo and behold, I do. And he, he does and, and vice versa. So there are those moments, but I think those moments might exist with other siblings as well. But then there are really spooky ones. There are very, very spooky ones where, um, I remember when we would, for example, we would growing up. I, um, I rode, I took my bike out for a ride and I came to an intersection and I, um, hit a car because it cut in front of me.
Speaker 3 00:20:49 I hit a car and I flipped over the car and I landed on my neck and I had whiplash and I had to wear a neck brace for two weeks or so week or two. And, um, and after that happened, actually it was one week because exactly, exactly. One week later at the exact same intersection, the exact same thing happened to my brother. In fact, I ended up giving him my neck brace because it's like the Hemi. So there are moments where weird things like that happen that we just can't really explain. And there are several stories like that throughout the book where we just, we just have to say that was a little bit too coincidental to be.
Speaker 4 00:21:32 And what are the, the language that we were talking about crypto, crypto phasia, is there between you a remnant of that in, in any way when you are, uh, let's say talking at a cocktail party and you're both bored out of your minds. I mean, is there a language?
Speaker 3 00:21:52 I think it would be more, we often complete each other's thoughts. Um, we often know what each other's thoughts are like. And so we'll, there are times when we would, um, not say anything conversation, and then later I would say, so what did you think about that? And he'd say the exact same thing that I thought about that. And, uh, and so there are, there are those moments. Um, there are, there are things that w that we do, um, that we've, you know, we, that we interpret in our way that I don't inter like, like a lot of times people might say, well, you know, I have that relationship with my brother and we're not twins, or my sister, and we're not twins, but I think it's important to keep in mind that my, my brother and I also have two sisters, one of them passed away a month ago, which is, um, sad, but, but we, we grew up with two sisters and, um, and we all had the same upbringing.
Speaker 3 00:22:43 And so, so I don't have that. I'm close to my, my sisters, but I don't have that same kind of relates back, same kind of closeness that I do with my brother. And I think it's because my brother and I, we just sort of we're on the same path mentally and emotionally and spiritually. I think we're just sort of in sync, but we weren't always like that. That's the key, that's the other thing. There were times because of my homosexuality, particularly, um, he didn't talk to me. We didn't talk for two years. There were, there was, there was that time and what we came to realize during those two years. And he was very much involved in his church, and I was very much involved in my homosexuality and what, what we came to realize when I moved to Minnesota, I asked him to drive with me to Minnesota and he did, and it was one of the most meaningful experiences in my life because, um, we talked a lot. You talk a lot when you're driving, um, the two days, and we realized that growing up, we were always compared to each other.
Speaker 4 00:23:46 He was always the most social one. I was the one that had the better grades. So, so my, my, my family would compare him to me. And my, our friends would compare me to him. And what, what, what we learned in that trip was there was a time when that started happening when we got to be adults, but we never stopped comparing ourselves to each other. And it wasn't until we realized that, that we could let go of that a little bit. And we could say, wow, that this is the time where we get to explore who we are individually. And that was only meaningful because we hadn't really gotten to that point until I moved to Minnesota. Well, the book just delves into all these wonderful things. And, you know, you ask questions about sameness and duality and lightness and darkness, and, you know, the, the opposites are identical, opposites it with even within identical twins, evil twins, all of these different elements.
Speaker 4 00:24:44 Here are all things that you expand upon that so that people often don't think about. Um, I've got some, a couple of nephews who are wonderful twins, Kieron, and Louie, uh, in London. And they, they, they're just wonderful and they do everything together. I'm, uh, um, kind of not looking forward to the day when they have to be a part and better than the rest of that. So, Oh, this book has really opened my mind about some things and, and reminded me of things that I already knew. So really congratulate you on writing this and a lovely book. And, uh, I wish you great luck with this in the future. And unfortunately, we've got to move on to the next part of the show. Uh, but I loved having you on the show again and come back with your next book. Thank you, Ian. I really appreciate it. All right. You've been listening to self divided by John Madeira. And now this hello bill. Can you hear me? Yes, I can.
Speaker 5 00:25:50 Oh, great. Welcome to right on radio. We're we're going to be talking with bill Shenay author of chairman at the board. Uh, it's going to be a fun interview, I think. Can you start with that little reading I talked to you about,
Speaker 6 00:26:05 Uh, yes. Just one second. Uh, okay. Do you go live with this? Yes. When will that be?
Speaker 5 00:26:21 We're live right now. All right. Yeah, we, we, yeah.
Speaker 6 00:26:26 Okay. Uh, so here, I'm picking it up in my book with, you know, as my memoirs of my incredible career that I've been blessed to have, and, uh, I didn't know what to pick, but I just grabbed one here that a lot of people like the Beatles. So we only worked during the evenings and every night, different luminaries came down to hang out. The list included Brian Wilson, Marc Bolan, Billy Preston, and Peter Sellers among others. I had never seen such a party while making an album. It was a very convenient atmosphere with so many people in the control room to talking could get quite loud. I like to work with the speakers at a nominal level, not too loud and not too soft. I had already learned that when people start talking in the control room, you can't just turn the speakers up because they'll just talk louder, turn up the speakers to get over the loud talk, and they'll talk even louder to get over the louder music when that starts to happen.
Speaker 6 00:27:20 I usually turn the speakers off for a second and just ask everyone to please keep it down. However, with this crowd of notables in the control room on these sessions, I just pushed through as best I could. When Brian Wilson walked in the control room in the midst of all the goings on, it was a major thrill for me, but that incredible thrill turned to chill. When later in the evening, I went to the bathroom and found Brian and Harrington Nielsen crossing swords, and acting like silly little boys, the amount of talent. And those two bodies was immense and it hurt to see them in their current condition. Still, Brian was one of my idols and having two Beatles and the leader of the beach boys at my session. Well, it doesn't get any better than that little did I know what was in store? Richard informed me that weekend that John Lennon had a song for Ringo and was coming in on Monday to record it.
Speaker 6 00:28:11 You mean with George and Ringo? I asked yes. That's exactly what it was to be a partials beetle reunion. This would be the first, the three of them had played together since their demise. John had written the song. I'm the greatest about himself, right after the Beatles breakup as a tongue-in-cheek therapy. So when Ringo asked John to write a song for the album, he reworked the lyrics to fit Ringo's storytelling, singing style, which suited him perfectly. That Monday night, I had a new level of nervousness waiting for Lennon to show up at the studio. He had a deserved reputation for being very sharp with people. When he did arrive, it was in a flurry, as we were introduced. I heard that very identifiable voice. We all know so well, there was a bit of tension mixed with frivolity. Has everyone met and talked to John Ringo and George seemed very happy to see him.
Speaker 6 00:29:03 And he, then it seemed hard for him to sit still. He continually flitted about with his eyes constantly darting around. When they got down to business, there was no doubt who was in charge. Ringo, who up to that point had been the life of the party was now quiet and intently. Looking to John for direction. George had been the leader on photograph and very forward with ideas on the other songs he played on. Now, he too looked to John for what to do next. It was decided that Ringo should play drums alone. On this song. John was on piano and sang a guide vocal. So Ringo could learn the song later. John pushed the session along at a good clip. He was quite dry witted, which occasionally came out in certain comments, as well as in his jokes. It was an era of creative intensity to the vibe as they worked the song out, everyone in the studio that night was a pro and very much in their element.
Speaker 6 00:29:55 When a small bump in the road came up, figuring out the middle late of the song, the three Beatles worked it out with instant telepathy. They still shared song. Craft was an art. They understood deeply. It was amazing to watch and offered a glimpse of what it must've been like when they were making their historic records. I couldn't believe that it was all happening right before my eyes. The whole experience was a pinch me moment. For sure. You could tell that when John was happy with the track, we would be done and not before, but it didn't take very long at all. In fact, the whole session went by way too quickly. For me, after that night with John rumors started flying about a beetle tree union and predictably. The next night, there were TV crews at the entrance to sunset sound hoping for a peak of the fab four to see if it was true.
Speaker 5 00:30:44 All right. That was bill snake from chairman at the board, talking, reading about, uh, a mini Beatles reunion without Paul. So welcome to right on radio bill. We are, uh, excited to have you, um, why don't you talk about some of your life prior to becoming an engineer, just to get us a picture of, of what that was like.
Speaker 6 00:31:12 You mean how I came into this wine business? Okay. Um, uh, I'm an only child and, uh, the kind, some, some only children seem to be happy growing up that way. I, I wasn't. So the radio at an early age became my a sibling. And in those days, the back in those days, a radio was very different than that this jockeys held all the power and they would decide what they wanted to play. And even though certain disc jockey would have a certain bin, certain kind of music, he liked if he heard something that was totally unrelated, he'd play that. So the point is we got a very wide variety of music. I started, uh, music lessons in grade school, first, the trumpet, then the sacks. And ultimately as a young teenager, started with piano lessons. When my parents moved to Los Angeles from Phoenix, um, my senior year of high school, I met some guys that were starting a band.
Speaker 6 00:32:14 And, uh, I asked if they thought an organ would fit in and they said, let's try it. So I had an Oregon and we started a band together and writing songs. And, uh, we eventually saved our pennies and went to a recording studio to do some demos. And one of the guy's parents knew someone who knew someone in the music business and that someone was a guy named Gary usher. Gary was good friends with the beach boy, Wilson family. In fact, he wanted to be a beach boy, uh, but he didn't get that job, but he did right, uh, in my room and four Oh nine with Brian. And, uh, Gary brought us into Capitol records where his office at the time was. And that was very exciting for me because I was slash am a huge beach boys fan. And, uh, I, I asked him when he took us to the studios, this is where Brian records.
Speaker 6 00:33:09 And he said, no, he records across town at a place called Western recorders. But Gary signed us. He had just gotten a deal at Decca records. And so he signed us to Decker records. And, uh, we, in those days you did four songs. And if you had a hit, they released a couple of singles. If you had a hit, you ran in and recorded six more and suffice it to say, we never made an album, but, but, um, on those early sessions, Gary brought in a session guitarist who turns out to also be an incredible engineer and producer named Richie paddler. And after we were dropped from DECA, I went to see Richie at his studio and he said he could get us another record deal, which he did. And we went into his studio, which was a lot funkier than the ones we worked at capital and Western for the decade contract.
Speaker 6 00:34:07 And yet on the first playback of a song that we attract, we had just cut the sound that came out of the speakers, brought such an emotional additive to our band. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. In fact, when the song ended, I turned to him and pointed at all the equipment and said, can you teach me how to do this? That was a real aha moment for me. And he said, no, I'm teaching Cooper, get out there and do another take, but that's how it got started for sure. It was that aha moment at Richard ponder studio.
Speaker 5 00:34:40 And, uh, did you get a break or was it a slow, steady rise in terms of your engineering work?
Speaker 6 00:34:50 Well, if I cut the story down a bit, yeah. It turns out that I, I got, uh, I got a job, uh, in, uh, in a local recording studio that was not very professional, but it was a start. And when the, uh, owner decided we needed a new console recording board, uh, he brought in a guy that he'd heard great things about named Toby foster and Toby listened to what I had been recording there in the, in the studio. And he said, you know, you've really got a knack for this. And I thought he was just being nice, but I saw over time that he was serious. And he, he ended up being a great mentor to me because he, he got a job in LA as a tech and mastering engineer. And, uh, I went back to school. I dropped out of college for two and a half years chasing the band.
Speaker 6 00:35:44 And by now I'm back in school, but I went every day after school to the studio he worked at. And if you would just ask as many questions as he'd let me ask. And because all of my aptitude in school was in math, it was in math and science, uh, where that intersected with where that on the left-brain intersected with my musical right brain, um, just made learning engineering incredibly easy, so easy. In fact, that two and a half years after that aha moment with Richie where I didn't know the difference between a limiter and an equalizer two and a half years later, I begged my way into a job back in that same studio with Richie. And he threw me in, he threw me in on a three dog night session and, uh, I don't know what he was thinking because he wasn't producing them.
Speaker 6 00:36:36 Then he was just engineering them and their producer would also produce Steppenwolf. So he w that Richard engineered. So it was his biggest client with his two biggest acts and why he did that. I'll never know, but he did it and I managed to swim. And so from there, it, it grew kind of, uh, very, very quickly for me. So that was like in, uh, 1969. And I, I just recounted, uh, when I went to work for Richie and I just read the story of the Beatles, which was, uh, four years, three and a half, four years later,
Speaker 5 00:37:16 What was, okay. So the first band you, uh, engineered for was, uh, three dog night. Are you engineered for some lesser bands prior to that?
Speaker 6 00:37:26 Oh, yeah. I mean, nobody that anyone would ever have heard of though in that early studio, believe me. Uh, it w like I said, it was quite a bit less than professional actually kind of comical in retrospect, that he had egg cartons on the wall for sound absorption. Uh, the console quote unquote, was nothing more than a little eight channel mixer with no tone controls and just, uh, uh, like guitar reverb for echo. He only had two professional condenser mikes. You get the picture. And, uh, but the good part about it was that it was only two track, which meant that every session was done, there was done completely live. So I, I was able to learn mixing from, from day one, uh, the ideas of that, because, you know, they're out there performing and you're making the final mix, uh, that would, that would prove to be very helpful in my career. I'll all the way through till today.
Speaker 5 00:38:24 Actually I'm a musician myself. So the egg carton thing is very familiar to me up against the wall, you know? Yeah. Um, you saying the books that you love popular music, and I'm wondering, you know, where your love of that came from, I assume when you were a kid, there was a bit of rock and roll stuff going on in there too, in your mind. So, but, uh, how do you define popular music and what is your love of it, uh, about,
Speaker 6 00:38:54 Well, you know, the interesting thing is I love all kinds of music. Now, the record business, you know, the record business loves to put you in a box and, you know, you belong in this box, so you can't play with these toys in this box. Um, and the case in point, it was just kinda funny. So I came out of, uh, American recording, which became the hottest rock studio in Los Angeles in 1970, 69, 70, and went on as such. Um, and, uh, I had worked when I left, uh, Richie pretty soon. I went to work for CBS and I worked with a producer named Richard Perry on an album that he was doing with Barbara Streisand. And so that was fine and good. And a lot of interesting, needless to say stories about that. Having somebody with that kind of talent in front of me doing a one-on-one concert, basically, but he went on, uh, Richard Perry went on to do, uh, England to do an album with Carly Simon.
Speaker 6 00:39:56 It's the no secrets album with you're so vain on it. And he recorded and there and called me and said that he, uh, that he was just about finished mixing the album, but there were two rock songs that he was saving for me on the album. And that just shows, you know, the perception, uh, his perception because of where I came from. And it w w you know, you know, 10 years later I could beg to get a rock album and the record business would never let me out of the box, you know, put me back in that box again. But I think a lot, uh, I I've loved all kinds of music, but yeah, I, I, I am a, uh, a singles junkie for sure. Uh, pop music, kind of junky, uh, funny enough, R and B is my favorite genre. I think if I have to pick one and, uh, I was very fortunate to do quite a few things in that genre, not as many as I might've liked, but, uh, I'm not complaining
Speaker 5 00:40:57 Well, you worked with Marvin Gaye, correct?
Speaker 6 00:41:00 Right. Yes. The Jackson's
Speaker 5 00:41:03 I think you have listed and, and I've read about, and, uh, also of course, Whitney Houston, talk about Whitney Houston. What was that like?
Speaker 6 00:41:17 Yeah. I always want to give simple answers. That is not what you're looking for, which is incredible. Can we go on, but seriously, uh, there's a, a great R and B artist named Teddy Pendegrass was, and he, uh, had unfortunate, uh, accident that caused him, uh, his ambulatory. He became a quadriplegic and, uh, I mixed the first album he did after his accident, which was not to Teddy of old, because obviously sitting in a wheelchair, you can't, haven't got the same kind of power that you do, being able to stand up and have the diaphragm work the way it wants to for that. But in the course of mixing that album, the producer said that there's, by the way, there's a duet on this album bill. So this afternoon, while you start the next song, I'm going to go record the duet partner. I said, okay.
Speaker 6 00:42:11 So he left and I went onto the next song and he came back several hours later and I said, how did it go? And he had this look on his face and he just said, unbelievable, this girl has dropped dead gorgeous and sings like a bird. And, uh, I said, what's her name? He said, you haven't heard of her, her name's Whitney Houston. And she, she had been signed by Clive Davis already Clive signed her so that no one else would, but he to his credit. And he's, he's done it before. And he's done it since, uh, he worked, uh, very diligently to prepare, uh, a major star. So, uh, anyway, that that song was on Teddy's album and then, uh, a year and a half or so later when she did her first album, I mixed up several songs on that album, including two of the hit singles.
Speaker 6 00:43:00 Uh, the duet was on her first album as well. Um, but you know, the, I suppose the, the, the, my greatest experience with Whitney was, uh, with the movie, the bodyguard, and, uh, that was her first motion picture to act in. And the, all of the, the, uh, songs in the movie were actually records made in a studio that in the film, she just lip syncs. But the producer David Foster called me and said for the closing number on the movie, it's a ballad and the camera's going to be right in her face. And she doesn't want to have to, it's a very explosive song, and she doesn't think that lip-syncing is going to make it, so she wants to record it live when they shoot the film. So will you please get a recording truck? They're, they're shooting this scene at the fountain blue hotel in Miami, and meet me on in Miami with the recording truck on such and such a date.
Speaker 6 00:44:04 So that's what I did. And, uh, the band, I knew the band members very well, and I got there and did the set up and ran through the song and whatnot, waiting for, um, David and Whitney to sh come down. And finally she got there. And the most amazing thing, uh, about that is that here at that point, by that point in time, Whitney had sung in front of 20,000 Cedars all the time, a couple of big, a hundred seat festival things. And yet in this small ballroom, in, uh, in the fountain blue hotel with a crew of maybe 30 people, when we started filming, she was very obviously nervous. And so take, take one. And then we said, well, look, good. Let's, let's do another one, you know, take two and still kind of nervous. And, uh, they, they, they took a mini break and just let her shake it off and came back for, uh, for take three, which was definitely better, uh, but not, not what you'd want.
Speaker 6 00:45:07 And so they took a big break. And, uh, when, when that ended came back, um, the, uh, the next take was really good. I mean, it was a far cry from what they did, but on take five. Let me tell you when she went to that, this is obviously the song I will always love you when she went to that last. And I, uh, every hair on the back of my neck, and I imagine a lot of other necks there went flying flaring up. It was just a moment to behold and then like any good director when it was over. He went, Oh my gosh, Whitney, that was sensational. Let's just do one more for protection
Speaker 5 00:45:55 Boy, the movie business. Yes. Yes. I, now it's funny because I have always heard that Whitney was kind of a diva, but in your book, it sounds like she's just humble and wonderful person. And she was, and, and, uh, so it sounds like you had a very good experience rather than a
Speaker 6 00:46:16 Yeah. Yeah. Even what I think is even more astounding is that, uh, with Barbara Streisand who I've worked with many times over the years, uh, who, and as far as I know, I'm the only, I'm the only person I've ever met that doesn't have something bad to say about working with her, but I've just never, I've never had the first problem. I mean, the closest thing to a problem was on a, uh, an orchestra date where she was singing live, where she wasn't happy with her headphone mix until she got happy. She wasn't going to sing, but you know, that hap that can happen a lot, but it wasn't any, you know, it was worked out in, you know, three, four minutes, but, uh, yeah, she's, you know, I sent in the book, you know, I, I've never been afraid to tell an artist if they want something, that's going to get them in trouble or cause a problem to tell them you shouldn't do that.
Speaker 6 00:47:08 And, you know, I don't remember the first time I did that. If I know I must've done that with Barbara and I'm sure she would say, what do you mean? Cause she's very demanding, but incredibly, incredibly intelligent and, and has a memory, just an astounding memory. She can tell you the way she sang a song, you know, two weeks, she can tell you the notes that she's saying. Uh, but I do that because as, as I, you know, I, if, if it's going to get them up a tree and, and we're going to end up on a branch, that's liable to break off and both come tumbling down. If I explain that to an artist, you know, they'll respect that. And, uh, so I don't know if, if a lot of people have gotten intimidated by her or what, or if I've just been darn lucky the truth, but
Speaker 5 00:47:57 Well, clearly you have the engineering chops to, to gain respect from these folks. Uh, and that was another question I wanted to ask you is early in your, uh, career and even maybe later, uh, did you ever feel intimidated or afraid of these, uh, quite famous people?
Speaker 6 00:48:19 Uh, I can't say honestly. I mean, you know, when they threw me in with three dog night, I mean, it was more just playing fear because here I was the first time I'd ever been with a, a major artist, you know, and I hadn't been engineering that long. Uh, and then, like I said, it was about two years after that, that I'm recording Barbara Streisand. Uh, but, um, I, I can't say that, uh, that I've ever been intimidated in that way, to be honest. I mean, I've been very nervous about sessions, how they were going to go and that kind of thing, but, um, no, not really.
Speaker 5 00:48:56 Um, I'm curious now everything's going digital and I, uh, my experiences in recording my own music have been all analog and, uh, I also used to do some light work and that was not computerized, but, uh, uh, with, uh, theaters and whatnot. How do you feel like things are changing? Is it changed for the better, or is it kind of the same or has it changed for the worse, which with recording everything digitally?
Speaker 6 00:49:28 Well, whether good or bad, it definitely has changed in a major way. And, uh, the, the easy way to describe it for me is that when we made the, when digital first came out, I absolutely hated it. Why? Because I didn't think it sounded good. Uh, we were, I thought we had been sold a bill of goods because, um, yeah, there was no noise for sure, or the noise was gone, but there was a coldness to the sound and absolute coldness and the high end was, uh, kind of Hashi. And, uh, since then, of course we've obviously learned a tremendous amount. Uh, you know, it's interesting with analog from, from the late forties when the Germans develop it until now, it really hadn't changed that much, uh, at all the, the, the emotions on, on the recording tape changed, not in some ways better in some ways not, but, uh, th th the actual mechanics of it, uh, never really changed.
Speaker 6 00:50:34 Meanwhile, with regard to digital, everything has changed. We, we do higher sampling frequencies. We have better filtering. Now we have better converters and, uh, without getting too crazy technical that the sound, the sound of CDs, which is basically, if you just look at it 16 bit 44, one 41,000, if, uh, it, that which never did sound that good to me now we can record 24 bit at 192 K. So it's divided up into more pieces and it's sampled, you know, many, many more times a second. And what that allows for is a lot of what was missing in early digital. So I've, I've, you know, made a major turnaround as far as it goes. The, uh, when the hard system called pro tools came out, uh, I had a second engineer in my recording studio that was a computer whiz, and I bought it for him basically.
Speaker 6 00:51:35 And as he was showing me everything that it did, and there's no question that the production value of a hard disc, you know, computer recording is astounding compared to analog tape, which just captures the sound, uh, because you can manipulate it and, you know, six ways to Sunday. Um, but so what has happened is, uh, for me, a complete turnaround from, from those early days to now, uh, where we're, I think the best, the best capture we possibly have is 24, one 92 with really good converters. Unfortunately, not that many people are using it to record, uh, uh, especially unfortunate since it's, um, since storage is so cheap, but we still have the, the bigger problem to me with it is that now that the world has gone digital, the, the playback is digital, and it's not at a super high sampling rate. And especially now streaming, uh, and there are some, you know, a couple of streaming companies that are doing it better than, you know, better than the average.
Speaker 6 00:52:44 But, uh, I, you know, I still long for the day when people will have no speakers in a room and sit and listen like we do when we make the records, uh, you know, an unfortunate thing that Steve jobs did, he didn't invent MP3s and all, but he just made, uh, you know, he kept people sort of from stealing it by coming up with the process that he did with, you know, iTunes and so on. And, um, but what it, what that kind of situation has brought about is that music in great part has become something you do while you're doing something else. I mean, I suppose the first Walkman is what started that the cassette player that you could put in your pocket and listened to the album where music became portable, but, uh, whatever the cause. Uh, and I think it's great that you can, you know, listen to music while you're at the gym, or, you know, whatever, uh, doing your homework. Um, I guess the kids always did that, but, um, I still think there's so much value to, to the two sitting between some, you know, reasonable speakers, uh, and listening to something with a degree of resolution.
Speaker 5 00:53:58 This radio station still has turntables. So we're unique in that regard say we're running out of time. Why don't you let me know what your next project is? Or are you retired? Are you still doing projects?
Speaker 6 00:54:11 Oh, no. I'm, I'm still going. Um, I've got two, uh, two albums that, uh, are one is just about finished two of the best albums I've engineered in the last, uh, 10 years. Uh, uh, one of them is by a girl I'd produced, uh, uh, twenty-five years ago, the only country record I ever produced a girl named Mandy Barnett, who in the book I say is one of the best singers I ever put a microphone in front of. And, uh, as you know, with the fortunate career, I've had that saying something and her album that's coming out in may is, uh, the songs from the last Billy holiday album torch songs they were, and all orchestrated by a great point of the great old time arrangers, Sammy Nesta, co uh, it's a kind of a cute story. The producer called him up and said, we're going to do these torch songs.
Speaker 6 00:55:10 And I have an incredible singer. I'd like you to do the arrangements. And Sammy said, uh, I'm 95 years old. You know, why don't you let me do one? And you give it to somebody to model the rest after. So producer said, okay, fine. So he did the first one and sent it in and, and the producer called him and said, boy, it's beautiful. And Sammy said, why don't you let me do another, and you know where that's going? So, yes, at 95 years old, he did all 10 songs and I recorded it live with a 60 piece orchestra and this amazing singer, uh, at, uh, uh, Oceanway studios here in Nashville.
Speaker 5 00:55:53 I'm going to have to cut you off. I'm afraid because we're running out of time, but I have certainly enjoyed this interview. We could talk for hours.
Speaker 6 00:56:02 Okay, great.
Speaker 5 00:56:03 So thank you very much for being on right on radio with us. We've been talking with bill Shneyer author of chairman at the board, uh, recording the soundtrack of a generation. Thanks bill.
Speaker 6 00:56:16 Thank you. Take care.
