Speaker 1 00:00:20 You are listening to right on radio, on K F A I 90.3 FM and streaming live on the
[email protected]. I'm Molly Ray. On tonight's program, Liz talks with Neil Wooden about his memoir with the Devil's Help, a true story of poverty, mental illness, and Murder. Told from two perspectives, the story alternates between Neil's life and his grandfather's accumulating in a shocking revelation. Take a journey to the deep South and learn what it's like to be born on the wrong side of the tracks, the wrong side of the law, and the wrong side of a violent mental illness.
Speaker 2 00:00:56 And I'm Sam, in the last part of the hour, Molly Rebels speaking with Wayne Johnson about their work. Jenny's boy, a misfit childhood on an island of eccentric Johnson's memoir requires a boyhood full of pain, laughter, tenderness, and the kind of wit for which newfound lenders are known by that wit and by their love for each other, so often expressed in the most unloving ways. He, and they survived all of us and more. So stay tuned to Ride On Radio.
Speaker 0 00:01:34 Hello,
Speaker 3 00:01:35 Liz, can you hear me?
Speaker 4 00:01:36 Hey, how are you? Hey,
Speaker 3 00:01:38 Everyone.
Speaker 5 00:01:39 Hey. Hi, Neil. How are you? I'm
Speaker 4 00:01:41 Good. How are you?
Speaker 5 00:01:43 I'm doing great. Welcome to Right on the radio. Thanks for spending a Tuesday evening with us. Neil is the author of, with the Devil's Help, a true Story of Poverty, mental illness, and Murder Quite a bit. Uh, let's start with your reading. Do you have one ready for us?
Speaker 4 00:02:03 Uh, yeah, I have a section ready? You ready?
Speaker 5 00:02:06 Yep, we're ready. Go right ahead.
Speaker 4 00:02:08 All right. I'm gonna pull up the word file here. Uh, I don't think it's going to affect, uh, the video. I'm not tech savvy. Okay. This is from Chapter seven. Life's a Gas 1972. What happened? Nina asked. It had happened so fast that my older sisters were still in the dark. Jinky drank gasoline. I explained is she going to die? Nina asked and started crying. Nina was always the most sensitive of us. I shrugged. I didn't have an answer, but my mind instinctively played out. The worst case scenarios over and over. I wondered how life would be if she didn't make it. We were all kind of fond of her, but she was not entirely one of us. At least not yet. The bond between me and my two older sisters was akin to that of the brotherly commitment of soldiers in a war. We had also been through hell and has survived so far, at least, but I wasn't sure how.
Speaker 4 00:03:23 I didn't know how we made it to the ages of seven, nine, and 11, or even if we'd see the next year. This seemed like we waited for hours. Maybe we did. I went to the bathroom six times. Finally, mama came out to talk to us. She's going to be fine. We all breath the sigh of relief. They had to pump her stomach. Mama continued. She'll have to stay here a little while so they can keep an eye on her. I had never experienced a euphoria that comes with news like this. A few minutes later, daddy came out of the back. He seemed amazingly calm or perhaps just emotionally drained. Go on back and sit with her and I'll take the kids home. We walked out to the car and we all got in the backseat, even though Mama and Dinky weren't in the front.
Speaker 4 00:04:18 Now, daddy drove in complete silence. I felt sorry for him. I knew that guild of setting the jug with the gash right beside the water jugs had to be weighing on his conscience. I thought of offering words of encouragement to lift his spirits, but I decided against it. We assumed Daddy was simply drop us off and go back to the hospital. The three of us have been staying home alone for years. When Mama went with Daddy to put on dinners to sell stainless steel cookware. But Daddy followed us in. Sit down, he said, pointing to the couch. We obeyed. I wasn't sure what was common, but I assumed it was going to be a sole search of speech on the importance of safety or perhaps of the bonds of family. I was wrong. Y'all almost killed your sister tonight. We all three looked at each other in confusion.
Speaker 4 00:05:18 Y'all know you're supposed to keep an eye on her because she's too young to look out for herself. Daddy began in fashioning his belt buckle. It was a familiar scene and what followed next was all too familiar. Also, Nina started crying right away. She did this at the mirror, possibility of a whipping. And daddy could never bring himself to whip her with tears running down from those big brown eyes. That old softie, one thing was clear. Nina was a heck of a lot smarter than Jula. And I, Nina, go to your room. She didn't have to be told twice. It's not that she wanted to abandon us, she just didn't have the strength to disobey. Nina was devoted to our three person ban, and I have no doubt she would've taken a bullet for us. But a belt, daddy's belt, no way. We didn't blame her at all.
Speaker 4 00:06:19 Jolene and I were defiant, especially when we thought daddy was in the wrong, which he was most of the time. And this time we had zero doubt. Argo was to show him he couldn't hurt us. Argo was to show him we were stronger than he was. Argo was not to cry no matter what until he realized his attempts were futile. Our goal was pure idiocy. Daddy doubled over the belt, snatched Julian up by the left arm and swung away. Julian gritted her teeth, pure hatred, flowing from her young face. Her eyes stayed locked on mine. My war face was on full display as well. It was my way of offering support. Daddy continued to swing as hard as he could. The sounds of the belt connecting with my sister were hard. Were louder than you can imagine, and each blow chipped away at her hate and slowly replaced it with pain.
Speaker 4 00:07:20 As I said, Nina was much smarter. Mine and Julene's plan had one serious flaw. Daddy did not consider the punishment successful until he saw tears. Julene held out for an amazing amount of time, but it was not possible to go on forever. And she began to cry from the pain. Daddy tossed her back onto the couch. She stared at me and I could read her mind. She was so sorry. She wasn't sorry for what happened to Dinky because we both knew that wasn't our fault. She was sorry because she couldn't last forever. She was sorry that she couldn't protect me because we knew it was now my turn. Daddy yanked me off the couch so hard, my feet left the floor. I kept my eyes on Jolene. I wanted to make her proud. I wanted to break her record. I wanted to do everything I could do not to give that son of a, you know what the satisfaction, I'm not sure how long I held out, but it was a personal best. When Daddy left to drive back to town, his right arm had to be hurting. We showed that bastard.
Speaker 5 00:08:42 That's Neil Wooten reading from his book With the Devil's Help, a true story of poverty, mental illness, and murder. Um, uh, briefly, generally, why don't you kind explain what the book is about, what the overarch is of the story?
Speaker 4 00:09:00 Well, it's a unique style in that it alternates between my life with my immediate family and my grandfather's life. When I was a kid growing up on Sand Mountain in the northeast corner of Alabama, uh, we were always followed by a black car with men in black suits. And you know, when you're a kid, you just think everything's normal. I figured every family in America had their own car with men in black suits. I didn't know what it was, uh, didn't know what was going on. But as it even mentions in the synopsis, you know, my grandfather was convicted of murder and he was sent to Kilby prison. This was 1963, and that was two years before I was born. And when my mom was pregnant with me, I guess he decided that prison life just wasn't for him. And let's say that he facilitated his own release a tad early and we, you know, discovered that the F B I or whoever the agents were, I don't know really what department they were with, uh, something they kind of frowned upon.
Speaker 4 00:10:05 And they knew my dad had helped, and they knew that my dad knew who he was, and that was their only lead. So they followed us, they spied on us with binoculars, and occasionally they would knock on our door and that would always result in my dad, you know, threatened them, you know, threatening them, them threatening him. And so that was just part of my childhood. So the story inter ways between, uh, me and my brothers and sisters and mom and uh, dad and my grandfather's life. And it all kind of comes together at the end.
Speaker 5 00:10:42 And you say in the epilogue, it took you 40 years to write this book, which I can believe it's, it's very complex and very serious. Uh, what inspired you to wrap it up right now and get it finished and published?
Speaker 4 00:10:55 You know, it, it wasn't, it wasn't really, I, I've written 20 books of fiction and I love non-fiction. I just never thought about having a story to write. And I think the reason is, is when we were growing up, there were two topics we were not allowed to talk about. And one was our home life. You know, the house we lived in. We were not allowed to have friends over. The little shack. Dad was embarrassed. And the other one was, uh, my grandfather and what he had done. So, you know, just like you, things seem normal when you're a kid. The other things you learn as a kid stick with you. So I never actually thought I was allowed to tell this story. I mean, my dad's been dead for 19 years and my grandfather's been there for 43 and I'm still expecting them to show up <laugh>, you know, and be a little upset about the book. So I, I I guess it was just that part. And, and plus I really believe, had I written it, I don't think I could have written it when I was younger. I think I would've been too embarrassed about it. So the timing just seemed right, I guess, to finally tell the story. Cuz I realize that once my mom and I are gone, the story's gonna be lost forever.
Speaker 5 00:12:11 Uh, let's talk about the poverty first. You, you say poverty, mental illness and murder. You lived, uh, grew up in, I guess I would call it abject poverty. Uh, no running water, very little electricity, uh, in, uh, a situation where having a two-seater outhouse was considered a bit of a luxury. Uh, why don't you talk about the poverty and how it affected you as a child and perhaps even as an adult.
Speaker 4 00:12:37 Well, you know, that's another thing that I thought was normal. You know, I only knew a few cousins as far as going anywhere away from home when I was little. And I knew they had that magical room in their house, you know, called a bathroom. And, uh, and I remember my aunts in Fort Payne, where I live now, it's just, you know, the little town right off the edge of Sand Mountain. She had that incredible metal box in her window, in her living room that put out cold air. I had never even heard of such technology, but I thought her house was unusual. I thought she was just really rich. I mean, the house is probably 800 square feet. It's a tiny, tiny house when I look at it now. But they had those things that I thought were unusual. So I thought the outhouse, you know, we never even had a well, you know, and of course you on look on chat Mountain, at that time, they didn't have what we called city water.
Speaker 4 00:13:35 That was only in the valley. So everybody had wells. And, uh, so we never even had a well dug because we never had electricity enough. So going in town in the hollow, they had this beautiful spring down there, and it's just the best water you can imagine. Uh, and, and carrying the water every day. That was our chores every day, one of our chores. And, uh, carrying the water. And we used that to cook with, we used it to bathe with, and obviously we used it to drink, and that's why there were jugs sitting on the kitchen floor. And dad had went in to clean his hands from working on the car and had actually set the gas jug right beside the water jugs. And that's how the whole scene played out, that I just, uh, how it happened, the, the scene I just read.
Speaker 4 00:14:20 So I never thought about it being different as I've gotten older. Uh, uh, to be honest, I realized that in some ways it was kind of a blessing, you know? Uh, it, it certainly makes you not want to go back to that, I guess. But I didn't know it was hard. You know, obviously a child today is say nine, 10 years old, can't even imagine living like that. And I wouldn't want 'em to, but I didn't know at the time. It was hard. So, or even unusual for that matter. But no, I, I just never really thought about it as a kid. And as I've gotten older and realized how unique that was, you know, to grow up that way now that obviously people in this area grew up that way in the thirties, you know, but not the seventies and eighties, you know? So, um, but, but I have really don't have a lot of bad feelings about that. I think it's, uh, I think it actually kind of is advantageous in some ways. You know, I I think it makes you a little tougher and more resilient. So I don't, I never thought about it when I was a kid, and I don't have any really bad thoughts about it now.
Speaker 5 00:15:37 Uh, talk about how important family is to people who are mountain born and bred.
Speaker 4 00:15:43 You know, it's, it's, uh, it's probably the only sure thing they have, you know, the solid rock they have in their lives to rely on. So I think that's something that's really different about rural families, because for generations, especially if they're poor for generations, like a lot of the families were in this area, you always count on blood. And, and what's amazing is that even when I had relatives realizing that I was writing this book, and it took me about a year to write, which is about average for me to, to write a book. And when I was writing this book, I had relatives reaching out to talk about, and mainly they wanted to make sure that I knew how great a guy my grandfather and dad were. I knew my grandfather and dad better than they do, but they only knew 'em as these charming men. And they were charming, you know, they could tell people what they wanted to hear, but that wasn't so much the reason. It's just that this is family. Yeah, your granddad was convicted of murder, but he's a good guy, you know, and, uh, and so yeah, the family bond with families that grow up this way and areas like this is really just a, uh, you know, a incredible thing in itself. So you're, you're right.
Speaker 5 00:17:14 Let's talk about the violence. It's a hard topic I know, but, uh, let's talk about that. Um, do you feel like, and it goes through the book, I mean, it happens a lot to the different younger people in the book the Belt Now it said your father and your, your grandfather was due to mental illness or something else, the way they were raised, perhaps.
Speaker 4 00:17:39 Yeah. You know, we never heard the term back then. The term, of course, was, uh, manic depressive. Now it's called bipolar. But we never heard this. I never thought about it as I've gotten older and looking back, because I would say 80% of the time my dad was very caring and very loving. I mean, he was one of those Dalton dads that loved to show off his kids, and he was a big hugger, you know, strictly in a parental way. Uh, he was just, uh, you know, very loving for the most part. But you never knew. I mean, the silliest things would just set him off. And it was just this incredible metamorphosis into his great personality, into this almost a demon. You know, his demons took over. So I don't think anybody could go from that high to that low over something as silly a as a knocked over a glass of water, you know, could do that without having something wrong. The fact that his dad, you know, Pete, my grandfather, was the same way. I had to believe that it, uh, that that had to be. But yeah, that was never diagnosed. That was just from my belief that that had to stem from some kind of mental illness to be able to do that. And that was daily. I mean, it was at least every day something would send him into violent episodes and he never drank a drop. So it wasn't alcohol.
Speaker 5 00:19:11 Do you think that, or was that common in the mountain, Southern Mountain families, or, uh, was this kind of unique?
Speaker 4 00:19:19 It was more common than probably most places. I, I think ours was probably rougher, but, uh, when dad, when dad and his siblings, you know, seemed to be closer than he was with his kids, and I noticed that in other families back then, there were people my dad's age that were very, very close with their brothers and sisters, probably because they went through childhoods more traumatic than mine. You know, there's no telling of what them, I mean, they were probably yanked outta school in first, second grade and had to work the fields. They, they weren't given a choice. Their, their parents were from the old school, let's say, and they were probably very violent parents. So the bond that develops with the siblings become so strong that, uh, and, and these same men that were just so caring with the brothers and sisters treated their kids very, very harshly.
Speaker 4 00:20:17 And they wound up doing, getting into that same pattern of doing what their, you know, their own father did, which is really kind of crazy. So I don't think it was that unusual, uh, that families, fathers were very, very strict and some violent. And of course, people that grew up here that had fathers that drank that were violent because of that was probably much, much worse, you know? But there were, there were also, I would say probably the majority of people were very good parents. You know, I, I have a scene in the book where I talk about, I was in the fourth grade in Rome, Georgia, nine years old. And, uh, I went to stay with my coach for three days. Cause my family wanted to go on vacation, which they never went on vacation. And I had an important baseball game coming up.
Speaker 4 00:21:04 So the coach, his son, who was in my grade and on our team, was an only child. And I mentioned how he knocks over a glass of milk one day, and I was just cringing, waiting for the inevitable. And his mom and dad laughed about it and cleaned it up. And I thought the coach was weird, you know, <laugh>. Uh, so it is just what you get to know as a kid. But no, there were a lot of, uh, I would say poorer people in this area, kids when I was a kid, that their fathers were really rough.
Speaker 5 00:21:41 Uh, you talk about, uh, your coach, uh, in the book you also talk about a teacher that had a great influence on you. And I, uh, uh, you actually say, uh, everybody has a teacher in high school that, uh, helps em out a lot. And I'm wondering if you would talk about that particular teacher and some of the things she helped you, she kind of helped you get out, I think, and, uh, uh, talk about her.
Speaker 4 00:22:05 Tony Nibble, her husband, Terry Niit was the science teacher, and he was a great teacher. Tony Niit was our math teacher. And, uh, she noticed something in me that no teacher had. Um, and that was that I had a mathematical mind, you know, whereas I didn't realize how rare that was in the population, you know, but I got it from my dad and my granddad. They were just mathematically very, very sharp. So she recognized that right away. So right seventh, eighth grade, I was getting this, you know, uh, direction from her that no teacher had ever bothered. I had some nice teachers, but none ever took me under the wing, so to speak. So that was a very new, uh, feeling for me. And then she put together a math team at this little school I went to, and we tried to sign up for math tournaments.
Speaker 4 00:23:04 And they didn't have a division for schools as small as us, but she made 'em put us in with the bigger schools anyway. And, you know, like, it was just going be for experience. Right. But my first competition, I won two first place trophies. So, uh, that's probably when I realized that coming from a small area didn't really mean anything. And it was halfway through my senior year that Miss Niit asked me, you know, who are you going to college? And I thought she was joking. I didn't think a poor pig farmer like me was allowed to go to school. I didn't think it was allowed. Uh, but she convinced me, you know, that it was, and she also grew up poor and paid her way, you know, worked her way through school, and suddenly it seemed possible. So, yeah, I would say that, uh, I don't know if I would ever done some of the things I've done in life without her, but she certainly set me, you know, in the right direction. So yeah, she was, she's something else. I just emailed her yesterday and we still talk and have lunch occasionally.
Speaker 5 00:24:10 We have about five minutes left. I'm trying to decide, uh, which questions to ask. How did you become a teacher yourself?
Speaker 4 00:24:18 Well, I was not really a teacher. I was director of a math school, uh, that was in Milwaukee. I moved to Milwaukee. And, uh, it's really the only time I've ever used my degree. There was a, a mass school. It was, uh, owned by a company from India. And, uh, so I took that job. I don't know what that is in the screen there. Can you see that? Or is that just on my,
Speaker 5 00:24:40 Oh, that's a note to me.
Speaker 4 00:24:42 Oh, let me know. We got a couple minutes, so
Speaker 3 00:24:44 Sorry guys. I was just gonna let you know what, we got two
Speaker 4 00:24:46 Minutes left on this stuff, and that's how that happened.
Speaker 5 00:24:51 Okay. Well, I guess, uh, it's time to let you go, Neil. Yeah. We've been talking to Neil Wooten, author of, with the Devil's Help, a True Story of Poverty, mental Illness, and Murder. Uh, it's been a great interview. Thanks a lot, Neil.
Speaker 4 00:25:06 All right. Thank you.
Speaker 5 00:25:08 Great. And now this
Speaker 0 00:25:35 Hello
Speaker 6 00:25:36 And welcome to Write on Radio on K F A I 90.3 fm. My name is Molly Ray, and I am here with Wayne Johnston with his soon to be available book slash memoir called Jenny's Boy. Hello, Wayne. It's great to meet you.
Speaker 7 00:25:52 Hi, Molly. Nice to meet you.
Speaker 6 00:25:55 And then where are you call calling in from?
Speaker 7 00:25:58 I'm in, uh, what I call my bunker in Toronto right now. Uh, it's very quiet down here, so, uh, it's, uh, it's where I write where I, uh, actually, strangely enough, uh, it's been where I've been sleeping for the past few days because they're doing construction on the road outside my house. Hmm. Haven't been able to sleep or write anywhere except down here in, uh, what I call the bunker.
Speaker 6 00:26:27 Hmm. That's interesting. Visuals. I kind of like that though. Quietness is imaginable. Um, so I guess we could get start talking about, this is an autobiographical book, and it's one of a few, a couple that you've done. Um, would you like to share some details or exciting things about the plot with, with us?
Speaker 7 00:26:50 Yeah. Um, it's, um, it's a memoir. It's a, it's a, the story of my eight year growing up in Newfoundland, the most easterly province of Canada. And I lived in the most easterly part of that province, so way out in the North Atlantic. Um, I think everyone, when they're a child, thinks they're childhood is exceptional. That notion is something that I still have, because I'm pretty sure that my childhood was exceptional. This book tells the story of one of the places, uh, that I lived in and the story of how I kind of survived the year. Uh, while living there, my family and I, we used to, um, move almost two or three times a year, um, for reasons that when I was seven, eight years old, I didn't understand. Um, we would just be settled into a house and, um, we'd come home from school and find a moving truck in the yard and realize that we were moving again, not having been told that morning that we would be moving.
Speaker 7 00:28:15 So we'd pile into this truck and we'd only drive a couple of miles in the same town that I, that I grew up in, in Newfoundland. And, um, we'd move into a new house. And that's what happens at the beginning of this book. We move into a new house, and this is kind of where both my very early childhood and my family's history of moving kind of hits. Uh, um, I, I don't know if rock bottom exactly is, is right, but it's a, it's a set of circumstances that are quite, quite daunting that we, um, have to overcome in the space of just several months. So that's a kind of pencil sketch of the mm-hmm. <affirmative> book. Yeah.
Speaker 6 00:29:02 Yes. The, the, yes. I'm gonna bring that up again later. With the amount of time that you squish into this book, uh, when I'm looking at your other works and investigating them, there seem to be a lot of fiction and short stories except for this one, and then your other memoir, the Baltimore's Mansion, which also takes place in the area of New Finland, right? Uh,
Speaker 7 00:29:28 Yeah. Yeah, it does. It's slightly different area. Uh, okay. But, uh, yeah, it does.
Speaker 6 00:29:35 Okay. And I wanted to ask, um, is your writing process slash how is your writing process different between writing fiction and then will writing non-fiction memoirs?
Speaker 7 00:29:48 Um, well, as you said, I, I'm, um, I'm, I'm mainly write fiction. Um, but when I'm, even when I'm writing fiction, for whatever reason, this is how I started out. I was still borrowing heavily from my own autobiography. And, um, when I sort of started to run out of adult material, uh, so to speak for, uh, novels, um, I started to think about writing historical fiction mm-hmm. Which has in common with autobiography a kind of ready-made template. Uh, you know, when, when, when you write about your childhood, you're writing about things that actually happened, you don't have to do research because it's all in your head, or hopefully it is mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, when you write, uh, historical fiction, again, you're writing about things that really happened. Although, uh, if you're writing modern historical fiction, you are probably amending the history in some way. But again, you have that template, you have that blueprint already there.
Speaker 7 00:31:07 Mm-hmm. So that part of the method is the same. Um, but when you, when I'm writing nonfiction, which I've only done twice, um, what I find with both books is that it's kind of like going into a closet that's full of papers that haven't been sorted by an archivist. Mm-hmm. And somewhere in there in is a story, if you can find it, and if you are patient enough to look for it, uh, that's especially true with narrative nonfiction. Um, you know, as opposed to sort of, um, autobiographies that are kind of a series of name dropping, you know? Yeah. This is who I met, this is who I had dinner with, et cetera, et cetera. So that's what I did with, uh, with Jenny's boy. It was very intense. Um, you don't, most people I think, don't have occasion to recall their paths in great detail.
Speaker 7 00:32:11 Maybe if they're in therapy or something, they do. But even then mm-hmm. <affirmative> childhoods are, are things, um, that it takes quite a lot of investigating to get into, uh, photographs, for instance, that you appear in that you don't remember ever having been taken mm-hmm. <affirmative>, where, where, where you're, you look nothing like you remember looking no one else looks like you remember them looking. Um, and so it's a journey back, and you take that journey, the same journey the reader takes. I took in my, in writing the first draft, because everything, although it had it had happened, seemed fresh because I wa I couldn't re remember some of those details I found in the photographs. So it was very intense, very emotional going through the first draft. And then the sort of more artful side of writing took over in the subsequent drafts. And I especially did want to write a narrative
Speaker 6 00:33:16 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>,
Speaker 7 00:33:17 Uh, memoir, um, rather than one that kind of, um, gambled about, you know, um, so yeah. In the subsequent drafts it became similar to writing fiction.
Speaker 6 00:33:34 Okay.
Speaker 7 00:33:35 That's something we can get into with, uh, we have a chance mm-hmm.
Speaker 6 00:33:39 <affirmative>. Yeah. I was gonna ask you, and you kind of went into it, like what that journey and process was like going into such an acute piece of your childhood and history and then everything. It's very fast. You know, it's, it's only like a year or two from, I think it's like, it's like
Speaker 7 00:34:02 One year. It's actually, it's actually six months. Um, six
Speaker 6 00:34:05 Months. Yeah. Yeah. It is, it went so fast and it was so much content and it was only six months of your life.
Speaker 7 00:34:11 Yeah. I, I was lucky with, um, I don't even know who preserved all the photographs that I used for inspiration and, and for detail, you know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's not often you can say with your hand on your heart that when you were six years old, you wore a certain kind of shirt, you know, <laugh>. Uh, yeah. But I can, because the, you know, even on the cover, there's a photograph of me that I don't remember having been taken mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and, um, so parading through all those photographs, not just of me, but of my four brothers, uh, of my parents as they were back then looking mm-hmm. <affirmative> so young, much younger than I am now. Um, it was, as I said, a, a very sort of emotionally intense, often very, very funny. Um, I, I remembered comic things from a childhood that at the time, uh, didn't always seem, uh, comic, but in retrospect you have a, or I have, uh, a better context to see the men and, um, especially certain characters.
Speaker 7 00:35:22 Uh, I don't wanna sort of, um, steal and march on your questions, but in a certain characters, like my grandmother mm-hmm. <affirmative>, Lucy, um, who in this book lives just across the road from our house, um, she basically, you know, uh, in that eighth year of my life, um, kind of saved my life. I think that's how I look at it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but I had no idea at that time that anything like that was going on. But she, the funniest people, uh, that I remember meeting ever in my life, and, and I know about her in the kind of detail that I write about because so many other people that I knew growing up after she was gone had known her and had anecdotes to tell about her, um, and anecdotes to tell that it had occurred between her and me
Speaker 6 00:36:24 Mm-hmm.
Speaker 7 00:36:25 <affirmative> that I didn't remember. And so, you know, I called on, uh, family memory, uh mm-hmm. <affirmative> to, to write the book.
Speaker 6 00:36:34 Wow. Yeah. There, it's, that's pretty fascinating to cuz you know, we really do kind of choose what we experience and see to an extent, and we're completely out of control out of anything else. And so history that's kind of happening around you that you don't even register, going back to that and processing that, like Yeah, my family took a lot of pictures too, and I think I'll randomly get texts with pictures that I've never ne ever seen before when they're digging through a box and I'm like, at work and all of a sudden I'm just like, oh, my heart <laugh> of like a surprise and emotion that can just blow through you from a picture is so real. Yeah. And so studying deeply that, that's a lot of energy. I can only imagine.
Speaker 7 00:37:22 Yeah.
Speaker 6 00:37:24 Um, and so in saying that there's so much in this six months of this book, is there more that you think you need to tell? Do you wanna tell more from after that period or there more from before that period? Like,
Speaker 7 00:37:38 Yeah, you know, I, I, I think over the past few years I've started to realize that I won't be able to write every book I want to write. You know, sooner or later everyone runs out of time. And I think of the books that I, you know, I have someone once said to me, re recently actually, uh, or I asked them, you know, it was another writer. I said, are you working on a book? And, uh, she said, uh, no, I don't, I don't have an idea for a novel now. And it just struck me that I have never been without an idea or a anomaly. And, you know, anyone who's ever watched airplanes land at an airport, uh, you can, you know, it's a major airport, you can see them all stacked up, the lights coming toward the airport, they're all of different sizes. So the, you know, the one's closest or biggest mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and they go back and you see this little pin prick of a light that's like a star. And that's coming. And that's, that's how I see all the books I want to write. You know, they're all coming into land, but I don't know when one is going to appear in the sky that will actually never get there. You know? Um, so hopefully
Speaker 6 00:39:08 Never <laugh>
Speaker 7 00:39:11 They don't crash land. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 6 00:39:15 Well, that's amazing. Like, and I'm sure that can be very almost overwhelming to have that foresight of wanting to get all of that done. So I'm glad that you have the ambition that you do because there's also people that have all those ideas and, you know, they never never got to it. They never get to it even though they want to. So bad. You know, I've definitely been guilty of that. So, <laugh>
Speaker 7 00:39:41 Yeah, I'm, I'm just told years ago, you know, uh, if you wanna be a writer, write 'em, write your books, don't talk about them until they're finished. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Cause talk about them, you might talk them out and the inspiration for them might diminish or go away entirely. Uh, so I, I followed that advice, you know, knowing ahead of time that you have books you want to write takes a lot of pressure off mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, because writers are always wondering, uh, what do I do next? And their readers want to know what's coming next, you know, so it's a great, it's a great thing to get you out of bed in the morning, you know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, there's no languishing when it comes to, uh, at least my sort of view of riding.
Speaker 6 00:40:29 That's good. Um, let's see. I wanna talk, obviously I told you I have a cat. Um, I, you have a, the, the cat is so cute cause it's almost a little, it's so sweet how you have this relationship, this like distant relationship with this little cat named Merci. Is that how you're say that Merci, that lives with your grandma Lucy and it's like this little friend, but you're, you never really get to interact with it that much, but the cat kind of followed the timeline of the book to the end, and it was, you put that in there so deliberately, would you, do you wanna talk about that? Just cause you know?
Speaker 7 00:41:09 Yeah. Um, Merci was what I think of as my, uh, my first pet. Hmm. Um, because we couldn't literally afford a pet. Um, and I, I don't think my parents especially wanted, uh, you know, one more responsibility given that they had four boys and quick succession mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So when I went across the, the road, you know, I, I was so sick I couldn't go to school. And I, I would, um, my mom used to teach me at night and then by day I would go across the road to my, uh, grandmother Lucy's house. And she had a, what had been a barn cat, uh, but now domesticated. So it was a huge cat. I don't know what kind, but, you know, imagine something the size of a main coon cat, something like that mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and he, you know, for me, I think of him as, as kind of, you know, the proto cat.
Speaker 7 00:42:07 He was, he was, you know, the first cat and in the book, and I had no idea that this would be the case when I started out. But in the book, what I came to realize was that Merci kind of links my grandparents. They were very, um, sort of, you know, in the old fashioned rural, uh, tradition of, you know, the woman taking care of the house Yeah. And you know, the money and everything else. And, uh, the man in this case, Ned, my grandfather taking care of his farm, they were both so, you know, exhausted most of the time that Ned especially almost never spoke. He, he, yeah. Literally almost never spoke to me. So the Merci would make an appearance during the day from time to time when Ned was having lunch mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and he would always look as though he was about to pounce on my, my grandfather, which would not have been a good idea for either one of them. <laugh>, he, you know, he, he, he, he keeps going in the book like that. And I, you know, I, I realized that it was something, one of the rare things they shared, that they didn't talk about him that much. Ned didn't talk about him at all. But by the time you get to the book, uh, the end of the book, uh, Merci has, uh, achieved a kind of status in Ned's life. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that was real. It actually happened, but that I don't think anyone could have foreseen. Uh, and I don't want to give
Speaker 6 00:43:55 No,
Speaker 7 00:43:56 I don't wanna give the ending a away. Yeah. Um, but you know, he plays a big part in it,
Speaker 6 00:44:02 You know? Yeah, I know. That was very surprising. You know, I think that that was like a very good and lovely treat at the end where I was just like, oh, <laugh>. Um, so then I think we do, I do think we would have time, we have like, I don't know, eight minutes. Do you wanna read a little chunk? Like
Speaker 7 00:44:23 Sure. I can, uh, read a little bit. This is, uh, a section where I go across the road to Lucy's house. Um, it's the first time I've seen her in quite a while.
Speaker 6 00:44:40 Okay.
Speaker 7 00:44:41 Um, she's been sick and I haven't seen her and I've been sick, and therefore, uh, she hasn't, uh, seen me. So I arrive at the house and this is how it goes. Um, I arrived, by the way, with what's called my bed mobile, um, which I would carry around, push around with me from place to place because often I didn't have enough energy to stand. Um, so she says to me as I come in the house, there he is with his contraption, she said, you're like the sick in the Bible. Who carried your palates around with them? She got up and crossed the kitchen floor, put her hands on my shoulders, and looked down at me. Do I look like I'd been sick? She said she didn't. So I shook my head, you look like you are sick. She said, mind you, if you didn't, I think there was something wrong with you.
Speaker 7 00:45:41 Lucy's eyes were as dark as burnt raisins. Her eyebrows were almost as dark, but her hair was white and had been since she was 40, Midland and curled under at the sides. We began today as we had each day I had ever spent at her house with her and making me a glass of quick, I had some, and then she shouted, stop after I'd had about three gulps, she took the glass from me, put it in the fridge and put a saucer on top. There must be something very special in quick if someone is picky as you can stomach it. She said still at that wedding feast in the Bible where Christ changes the water into wine when they run out, he wouldn't have made much of an impression if he'd gone round spooning quick into everybody's glass, even though it would've been a miracle because there was no quick back then. A miracle per se, is not enough. It has to be something good. If all he'd known how to perform or miracles that made things worse, it would've been hard put to find 12 apostles for the last supper. Oh, that's a sin for me, she said and crossed her self.
Speaker 6 00:46:50 Yeah.
Speaker 7 00:46:51 That's kinda a little snapshot of Lucy. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, her, her irreverence is, you know, she was very Catholic, but she didn't go to church. She kind of said, um, kind of liturgy for herself and, uh, was kind of a satirist, uh, um, um, of Catholicism, which I kind of, uh, in some ways turned out to be myself.
Speaker 6 00:47:15 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it gives a good example of like this eerie atmosphere of blase about the, the illness that was very present with you and also like present within the family at certain times. And it, it's just like, it, it became humor at a certain point. And you're eight years old and there's this sense of humor being thrown around about this, and I can't imagine <laugh> that's pretty intense, even though it's so delicate in the conversations that come through.
Speaker 7 00:47:51 Yeah. You know, we, we didn't have a lot, but, uh, like a lot of other people who don't have a lot mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, we had our sense of humor. We had our wit. I mean, you know, if you're, if you're poor, um, you always have whatever you were born with mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And we were all born with the gift of gab, and we were all born with sense of irony, uh, sense of humor. And, uh, it could get quite, although intense, quite hilarious at the dinner table <laugh>. Um, when we all, you know, we were, we were kind of making fun of the terms of our existence, um, as a way of coping, I guess, and as a way of getting on each other's nerves and, um, you know, like any family, but intensely so, uh, with us and, uh, even today, um, one of, you know, one of my brother, one of my brothers, uh, is deceased, but even today, when we all get together, if there are other guests around, they, they are sort of overwhelmed into silence as we sort of, you know, commits back and forth, you know, <laugh>. It's just, just the, it is just the way we are.
Speaker 6 00:49:09 Yeah. I, I I love that. I, I I'm hopeful that I, I do get some of that in my family settings and I am grateful for the bits of that that I have. Um, I'm gonna ask the last question here. And so this book is coming out in next month, but would you please give us some more details about how listeners can learn more about your book and then at the same time prepare to get themselves a copy if they want to do so?
Speaker 7 00:49:43 Yeah. Um, if, if they wanna learn more about the book they're, you know, in advance, the best thing they can do is go to my website. So that's, uh, Wayne Johnston, make sure the t so Wayne Johnston ca and, um, you can find out there all of the books I've written, places you can get them. Um, you'll find out the exact pub date, publication date of Jenny's boy. Um, you'll find out what audible and, uh, you know, ebook editions they're in. And, uh, you know, the, the, you can feel readers will be able to find them in, you know, as the, as the saying goes, you know, wherever fine books are sold, <laugh>, um, which in this day and age is on Amazon. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but also, you know, at, at bigger stores, um, change stores like Barnes and Noble and also at independent bookstores, I would say probably, especially in independent bookstores, um, in, in, uh, in the US
Speaker 6 00:50:52 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah, we definitely have a lot in Minneapolis. So, um, January and you said Jan, is it 20, the 23rd? Uh, yeah. Okay. So post
Speaker 7 00:51:02 February,
Speaker 6 00:51:03 Post February 23rd, that's when it can be ready for that. Well, that's really exciting. You know, that was, um, I read the book a little while ago, and so I'm glad that it was, you know, it stayed fresh in the mind and it was really lovely, incredibly lovely talking to you about it and
Speaker 7 00:51:23 Talking to you.
Speaker 6 00:51:24 Thanks. Uh, I'll probably have to dig out and find some more works of yours. Uh, with that, I guess I have to, I'm gonna close this down. And so I wanted to thank everybody for listening to write on radio with Wayne Johnston and I about his upcoming book, Jenny's Boy. Uh, if there was anything else you wanted to say for a second, welcome to,
Speaker 7 00:51:51 Um, just that, uh, although it's a memoir, it is a sort of narrative driven memoir. It's kind of a, a, an idea that I'm driving home. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> my, you know, um, I think among memoirs it's kind of, uh, rare to have one that narrative driven mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it's not because I forced it that way. It, it's, um, it happened that that one year had that shape naturally. And so I, I guess I was just lucky.
Speaker 6 00:52:21 Yeah. Thank you. Well, thank you. And once again, this is right on radio on K F A I 90.3 fm. And next is this,
Speaker 0 00:52:50 Thank
Speaker 2 00:53:40 You are listening to Right on radio on K F A I 90.3 FM and streaming line on the
[email protected]. I'm Sam, I'd like to thank our guests tonight, Neil Wooten and Wayne Johnston, and all of our listeners. Without your support and donations, kfa, I would not be possible. You can find more news in info about right on radio at kfa i.org/write on radio. You can listen to all of your favorite right on radio episodes, on Spotify, iTunes, Google Podcasts, apple Podcasts, and anywhere you stream your podcasts. Please stay tuned for Bonjour, Minnesota.
