Speaker 0 00:00:00 <inaudible> <inaudible>
Speaker 1 00:01:37 You're listening to right on radio on KPI 90.3 FM and streaming live on the
[email protected]. I'm Liz Oles tonight on, right on radio. Dave talks with Thomas D peacock author of the Wolf's trail. And I'll give away story told by wolves from Holy cow press in Duluth. He is the author and coauthor of a number of books, including two Minnesota book award winners. The seventh generation, a multicultural children's book was named most multicultural children's book of the year by the American association of multicultural education. He is a member of the fond du Lac band of Lake superior on a Shinobi Ojibwe
Speaker 0 00:02:22 And I'm Josh Webber. And the last part of the hour, I'll be chatting with Juan Manuel Munoz author of from primates to politicians. Premiers. Politicians is a fascinating journey between the animal side of a human species and politicians. It explores the reasons for many human behaviors based on the evolution of species and the resources necessary for life. Munoz is a physician and political scientist who lives in Panama all the, some more. So stay tuned to write our radio and hello, David, can you hear me, Dave? Can you say something again? Can he sounded right now? Hello, Dave, are you there? I'm still, I can see you talking to it, but I can't hear you at all. Okay, Dave?
Speaker 2 00:04:20 Yes. My mistake. You are on
Speaker 0 00:04:22 The air. My apologies, gentlemen,
Speaker 2 00:04:24 Not at all. Thank you, Josh. Thank you, Liz. In the studio little glitch there it's live radio is wonderful. Thomas, welcome to the show.
Speaker 0 00:04:33 Thank you for, thank you for adding me.
Speaker 2 00:04:36 Well, we're thrilled to have you and it's election night in America, but we're going to do something even better than talk about that. We're going to talk about your book, um, which is a Marvel Thomas, uh, congratulations on the book and on your amazing career. Um, it's really quite impressive. So Thomas let's begin the title of the book is the Wolf's trail and Ojibwe story told by wolves. So let's begin with the inspiration for this story. If we could. Thomas, where did you come up with this idea that you're going to tell this sort of parallel story? It's a story about the Ojibwe, but it's a story about wolves and, um, how'd you come up with this?
Speaker 0 00:05:17 Well, um, you know, the, um, the Amish Navi way, we have a part of our creation story. And so I, I, I, the idea was born and from our creation story and, and, and I can tell part of it, you know, um, um, after the earth was made, um, uh, the creator sent first human out into the world to name everything on earth. And, um, and after a while, the first human notice that that most things were either they
Speaker 3 00:05:58 Were in flux or in groups or in pairs and, um, and felt lonesome and asked for someone to ask, to create for someone to go along with them to help, uh, do this work of naming the earth and the creator of sent my anger and sent Wolf. And, uh, so they, they went out and they named everything, um, uh, on earth. And, um, and that's so the, so the idea for the story was, was born from that. But what, and, and, and what happened after, um, everything was named was, um, uh, Wolf first human and, and my angle were broccoli for the creator again, and they, um, and the creator told them certain things. And one of the things that, that the grater said was that whatever happened to one would happen to the other and that they would part, um, uh, and, uh, and so that's that parallel story.
Speaker 3 00:06:59 And it also said that in honor of, um, that, um, work that the Wolf did that, um, the face of Lake superior, um, the Lake superior would be in the face of a Wolf. And, uh, so we see that on today. So the idea of the story was born from that. And then I sort of built on that, um, uh, because, um, you know, wolves have remained wolves, of course, and, um, uh, their cultures remain strong and, and, uh, as our job way, people, we, you know, we, we wrestled with, uh, colonization and results of colonization. And, and so, you know, we've changed them a lot and, and wolves of course worry because, um, because of that parallel story, it, where are you what's happening to with us. And so I built the story from there, and that's the idea of it.
Speaker 2 00:07:54 Well, thank you for that. That's, I'm really glad you talked about the creation stories, the story I was really taken by that I was not familiar with this particular one and, uh, uh, this idea of wolves sort of telling their stories to themselves, but also in partnership, uh, with the Ojibwe, uh, was fascinating. Then you introduced a lot of themes in your answer there, Thomas, that I was going to get to later, but let's just jump right in. Um, first of all, let's talk about Wolf culture as you describe it. Um, did you do a lot of research to understand how, you know, the alpha beta Omega the way wolves hunt, or is this just sort of knowledge of the crude over time? Cause you've done a lot of historical writing yourself. Yeah,
Speaker 3 00:08:40 I, um, I, it was this particular story. I, I, I didn't know an awful lot about Wolf social behavior, so I had to do quite a bit of reading. And so I did as much reading as I could, and I watch, um, launch videos and, um, um, you know, it's impossible of course, to capture, you know, little social behavior when you give, when you give animals, um, human voice, intentionally emotions, that kind of thing. But, um, as much as I could, and then once I had a manuscript done and I brought it to the wildlife biologist for, you know, in my reservation and on the, uh, Mike <inaudible> and I, I asked him if he would take the time and, and read over a rough draft of it and tell me where I was really off Wolf behavior. And he helped me out just an awful lot.
Speaker 3 00:09:38 I mean, it, yeah, it just as an example in part of this story, um, uh, Zetia, you know, that the elder uncle and, um, and the two pups, um, um, uh, youngest nephew and little niece they're on this journey. And, um, and they have to cross, um, um, uh, make a crossing of a river. And, uh, initially I had them crossing, uh, crossing a bridge, um, in the night and, and, uh, the metros, the wildlife villages, you know, when he, when he reviewed it and he said, you know, he said, well, this would never, ever, uh, cross a bridge. They'll swim, they'll, they'll swim that river. They would never, ever walk across a bridge. So a lot of little things like that, he correct corrected. And so that was, uh, that was really helpful. So
Speaker 2 00:10:42 Are already getting the sense that there's a lot going on in this relatively short book, I will say, well, under 200 pages, um, we get this parallel story of, uh, wolves and the Ojibwe there's history in here. Um, there's just a lot happening and a lot to pick up. And especially someone from, you know, my point of view and non-native point of view, uh, I found it very eyeopening and, uh, beautifully written also Thomas, and I hope you have, um, an excerpt you're going to read for us in a moment here. Uh, but before you do, let's talk a little bit more about wolves. So did you, when you had the wolves speak and communicate, did you try to bring in a sort of Wolf idiom, if you will. Um, and then a second question along with that is there's humor in this story. There's humor between the, uh, the wolves and the characters, especially the young, the uncle and the younger ones, the storyteller. Um, is that a reflection of you Thomas
Speaker 3 00:11:41 It's? Uh, well, it's, uh, what I, what I do with, uh, quite a bit of my writing and it really came out in this one, just like, you know, other works of fiction that I've done is I, um, I, um, the way that I speak. Okay. Um, and, uh, and I use Rez, uh, Rez talk. Okay. So the walls and the wolves are really, uh, they're doing in a res lingo and, uh, and also that kind of survival humor that we have. Sure. So, you know, we call it res humor and it's, uh, it's pretty dark. And, um, um, you know, the topic, the, some of the things in the story of course are, um, you know, are emotional, deeply emotional. And so to mix that in with, with humor to lighten that up, to make it a little easier to deal with. So yeah, I did throw in that and it's just, it just sort of comes out as I was doing the writing and I just kept it there, I guess. So,
Speaker 2 00:12:43 All right. Very good. There is, as you said, very emotional, um, sort of dark or heavy passages. And I wanna, I want to talk about those too. Um, before I have you read, uh, one more question. I promise, um, I love the phrase Thomas talking story. Um, the uncle Wolf is going to talk story, uh, to the nephews. Is that, uh, where does that come from? Is that a no, I think as you described it lesser reservation, uh, phrase, or is that something you pulled out of your hat?
Speaker 3 00:13:19 It's not really anything that I pulled out of my hat. Um, actually, um, um, there are quite a number of indigenous cultures around the world that let use that, that English speak story and got it. Um, actually got, got that particular phrase from a native Hawaiian, uh, friend who uses it all the time and I just started using it. And then, uh, when, when I started writing this particular story, I, it's something that I use all the time now. And I noticed that native people are beginning to use. So yeah, it fits perfectly. So
Speaker 2 00:14:00 I love it. I, I would love to be able to borrow it. It's really great. So when you say talking story, Thomas, what do you mean by that?
Speaker 3 00:14:08 Talk story is, um, is that, uh, to me, it's, uh, it's, it's at all part of our oral tradition. Um, that's, uh, uh, you know, a long time ago when people would sit around and winter winter camp and, um, you know, it was done with everything. It, it, it includes everything. It includes the, um, not just the telling of the story, but, uh, what the pots is and, uh, the cadence, um, um, the fire, um, uh, everything that's going on is all part of that. So it's, it's the wholeness, I, if you can think of it that way being of that. So that's the way that I think of it when I, when I think talk story.
Speaker 2 00:14:55 No, I, I love the phrase. It's fantastic. Uh, do you have a reading for it?
Speaker 3 00:15:00 I, I, I could, uh, I do have something. Yeah. And maybe if I could just for a minute, just set it up. That's great. In part of the story, uh, auntie Luna is telling, uh, is talking to the pups. Um, um, and it's, uh, it has, it's part of a chapter on the six fire and the six fire of courses. One of our processes of when, um, we go through this very, very difficult period and it's, um, it's it, it's a part of, uh, where we are now as a Ojibwe people. We're somewhere in that six fire. Um, and, uh, anywhere she's talking, talking story to the, um, um, in telling what happened to wolves, she looked around where they were all sitting right here, and this is what they call them, Minnesota. Should we applied? We are the few who are left. She said, there are just a few of us left, asked a voice from somewhere in the huddle.
Speaker 3 00:16:01 Auntie, could I sit up closer to you as to another voice from the huddle? Me to ante, of course, have more voices joined and come here, all of your seats. She said, softly, all of the pups gathered in close to her. I watched them from a distance, their auntie soothing them assuring. They were protected, loved several pups bird, their faces deep into her for, as they listened to her talk story, the new humans are bad. Aren't they, auntie owner asked younger nephew, she began licking his face and ears as a tasting for what seemed like the longest time. Then she moved on to another pop. Then another, even the one who always says the word stupid, or he was the one who was closest to her, the one world, the deepest into her for, with his snout. Then she answered. No, they aren't that it wasn't all of them who did this.
Speaker 3 00:17:00 Only a few only those who believed all the bad stories I heard about us. Many of them tried. Many of them try to live their values, their teachings on how to live their lives in balance are a lot like ours. Theirs were scratched under rocks, using different words. They call their seven grandfathers angels, their teachings, commandments. They scratched on paper. This thing made from the meat of trees, the whole story of the creator's lessons and how humans should live their lives. What they call a Bible? No, they aren't bad. Little nieces and nephews. She said, they're just human.
Speaker 2 00:17:42 Thank you. That was Thomas peacock reading from the Wolf's trail. And Ojibwe story told by wolves out, um, this year, not that long ago from Holy cow, press in Duluth. I'm Dave. And this is right on radio on KFA. I thank you, Thomas. Um, that's a nice example of you telling a story about humans through the wolves. And, um, it's a great example of, uh, I guess speaking for myself, um, viewing humans, moving through the earth and through time through, uh, through different eyes, it really sort of opens your mind up to, uh, uh, the relationship between humans, animals, and I guess the rest of the world. Um, let's talk about a theme that's really powerful in here, and I'll just describe it as loss. That's how I felt at Thomas. And that's a loss of tradition, loss of language, and even loss of spirit, um, that the walls observe in various times, uh, in the Ojibwe people and the wolves themselves also experienced a similar loss, similar losses. Um, is that a correct reading?
Speaker 3 00:19:00 Yeah, you're, you're right on there because, um, you know, the whole, um, one of the major themes in the, in the story has to do with, um, um, w with that, and, um, in the fear, of course it was that, that, you know, that maybe we as Ojibwe people are losing our way or that we've lost our way. And, um, they're worried of course, because, um, what happens to us will also happen to them because we have that parallel story. And so they're worried about that. So really it really, it, it is, uh, a calling, uh, at least on my part, you know, Alto, you know, other Ojibwe people that, you know, we need to, we need to remember who we are. We need, we can't forget, um, who we are, and there's this intense pressure all the time, you know, just from living in contemporary society to, to, for everyone to be alive. And, and, um, and we need to remember our story. So that is definitely a major theme in, uh, in the book. So
Speaker 2 00:20:09 Very somber moment or chapter, I suppose. Um, when you address these issues that you just raised, these concerns very directly in the book, um, and it, it felt very much like, you know, we were hearing from you and hearing from other LGBT elders about <inaudible> people today. There's a beautiful line on page one 34, um, chapter 11, picking up the pieces, begins with the individual one at a time, then a few more than a community, a tribe, a, um, w w what did you mean by that, Thomas?
Speaker 3 00:20:51 Well, I, if, if, um, you know, and, and, um, you know, what happens when, uh, when a culture begins to disintegrate, um, um, the culture that had once held people together, it was one strong enough to hold people together is no longer strong enough to, to buffer us from everything that, you know, we're being hit with. And, um, and, and people need to realize that, you know, that we need to realize as individuals that it begins with us, you know, it does, it begins with one person and one person, and then, and then another person it builds like that it's the nature of change. So
Speaker 2 00:21:38 Continued on that theme, and then we'll, we'll, we'll move along, but it's such, such a powerful moment. And the story builds to this sort of reckoning. Um, uh, one of the, I believe it's pups asks, um, why is it that humans continue to suffer so deeply while we wolves have seemingly recovered? And then, uh, part of the answer is the difference possibly is that wolves remained wolves. Um, it's another beautiful line. There's a lot packed into that very simple sentence and that simple phrase wolves remained wolves. So I'll ask you the same question, uh, Thomas, uh, what do you want us to take from that?
Speaker 3 00:22:21 Well, um, you know, uh, Wolf cultures will cultures remain strong, you know, through everything that, that happened to wolves. Um, um, the fewer remaining packs of wolves that were left, you know, he had it out deep in the woods, um, um, and, uh, and remained to this day, very, very wary of, of human, any kind of human contact. And, uh, it's why, uh, you know, I live, uh, uh, I live in the area, uh, of the echo Valley. Um, we'll pack them in Northern Wisconsin where my, um, uh, seasonal places and, and, you know, it's a large pack and I hardly ever see them. So you will very rarely see walls. So Wolf culture that remains strong and, uh, and it's held them together. And, and I think I made, um, I said something in that part of the story that, you know, um, what happened to us as Ojibwe is, um, well, wolves were able to hide deep in the Bush. Um, we Ojibwe had nowhere to hide. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2 00:23:33 Yeah. That's a powerful moment. Thomas, you described where you live now, maybe we should talk a little bit about you and, um, uh, your career and your, in, in your, in your story, what's the arc, the narrative arc of your story, Thomas?
Speaker 3 00:23:49 I really don't know, you know, I haven't, uh, I haven't done that kind of stuff in the house, so I, yeah.
Speaker 2 00:23:56 Okay. Well, how did you become, uh, uh, uh, the writer that you became and really a scholar of, uh, uh, of history, uh, Ojibwe history and,
Speaker 3 00:24:09 Well, I, I, um, I, um, I, I grew up in a, in a family where, you know, a large family and, uh, spent a lot of time around my grandparents and I grew up in an Indian home, and I always say that because, um, and then in a, in a native home, uh, traditional homes, um, you know, um, uh, kids, uh, when, when, when, uh, when a company came over, um, kids were always sent into another room. And, um, and, uh, I, I was, uh, we were all put, it usually put in one room and we never would ever, ever, um, interrupt adults. And, um, um, and, uh, I was that kid who was laying on the floor with my head, stuck, halfway out to door listening. And I say that, you know, I'm an avid listener. And so I started listening to, you know, two adults and, and my grandparents, some tell stories, and, and I started remembering the stories and, uh, I spent a lot of time doing that. And then when I became older, I, um, uh, I, I, I went around them. I back in the old cassette recorder days, I started interviewing elders and, uh, in my early twenties. And, um, you know, I don't have any kind of formal background in, in history or in Ojibwe history. I don't have an Indian studies or indigenous studies, anything. So I just took it on as an interest. And I started writing history and I made the transition a few years ago over to fiction. So, wow.
Speaker 2 00:25:52 You're a scholar by any definition of the term, that's for sure. Um, and we're all, we all heard that story and we're all hoping, boy, we hope you saved all those cassettes and maybe turn them into, I don't know, something else. Um, so there'll be preserved, but I'm sure you've, you've taken care of that. Uh, say Thomas, this book has so much, as I described in a relatively small package, including on glossy paper in the front of the book and Ojibwe sky star map, I am incapable of pronouncing the Ojibwe. Um, but it's really beautiful. It's another bonus you get from this book again, we're talking about the Wolf's trail by Thomas peacock. Um, can you, I know listeners can't see the map, but could you describe the sky star map and the significance?
Speaker 3 00:26:39 So, but the significance of it, of the, of it with the story is basically, you know, the, uh, Ojibwe people, like a lot of, uh, indigenous people, we have our own, uh, we have our own cosmology our own. Um, when you look up in the sky, we see, we see our own constellations and our own stories that go along with those constellations and how that fits with this particular story. Um, it's actually the title of it on the Wolf's trail though, the Wolf's trail, if you, if you have, you have, uh, that, that constellation map in front of you will see a Wolf tracks going around the middle of the sky, that is the Wolf trail. It represents the, and our ancestors figured out, uh, the ecliptic, the path of the sun, um, uh, around the universe, the path of the earth and the moon and all the other planets around the sun. Um, it, it, uh, the ecliptic, um, tells us, uh, why there are seasons, um, uh, why there are eclipses, why are you there are the different phases of the moon. So, um, somehow our ancestors who had no access to, um, uh, what we would call, um, Western science or astronomy had figured that out. And, uh, and they called it my anger and Midcon, which translates to the Wolf's trail. Wow.
Speaker 2 00:28:24 And not only that, but it's a beautiful map too. I mean, it's gorgeous. Um, we are very well. We were going to stress this out a little bit, Thomas cause we're having a good time. How does that sound, we're going to give you some extra time, say Thomas on page one 50, six of your book, not the beginning of every chapter listeners, um, Thomas gives us a snippet of history or whatever he had in mind. Uh, maybe some, a story, a fable to sort of set up the next chapter and prior to chapter 14, um, there was a piece of writing that Thomas I took to be from you in your voice.
Speaker 3 00:29:04 Is that true? Yeah. And that's me. Yeah, you're, you're reading that correct. That is me. And it's a piece of pros, um, that I wrote, um, that describes my own life. So we,
Speaker 2 00:29:17 Can we have you, can we have you read that for us please?
Speaker 3 00:29:20 I good. Now in the winter of my time on earth memory often takes me down the old road that overlooks the river that flows through nigga one on the bottom of the Lake fond du Lac reservation in Northern Minnesota. It seems the whole story of my life sings in chorus along the way of that in all its various cadence, cadences, octaves, and ranges and moods and in my childhood voice and that of an adult along the way, I recognize all the sounds and smells and bright colors in the many angles of sunlight through the trees and their seasons. And I know the dark road equally as well. This place, this road walked with parents and uncles and aunties, brothers and sisters and cousins, nephews, and nieces. This place LA walked alone. This place journeyed this place run upon, laughed upon dance upon wept upon this life of great joy and great sorrow. The spirits of the living inform the bright sky and soothing rain and wind and waving summer flowers of this place. Bittersweet memories of loved ones who have passed on inform the moonless nights. Sunless winters and heavy air for my life has been all of these things and more in the continuous play of light and shadow the dance of hope and despair my life, my life.
Speaker 2 00:30:53 Well, that was beautiful. Thomas that was Thomas peacock reading from the Wolf's trail and Ojibwe story tool by wolves. That was really beautiful. And I would say Thomas, that not only are you in a story on a now a novelist, but also a poet. I mean, that, that was really, really beautiful and in a more succinct and, um, I I'll, I'll, I'll use the same word again, poetic memoir. Um, I have never read before, but, uh, that's really nice. Um, uh, so many stories in here. One is, you know, particularly stands out I think. And that's the story of this about little boy. Um, do you want to tell us about that in the significance of little boy, that story for your overarching story?
Speaker 3 00:31:37 Sure. This is the, um, the, the, one of the stories that I, I really hesitated whether I should tell that that part of the story because, uh, we have, uh, one of our, one of our, um, prophecies, um, one of the teachings is that, um, you know, when, um, when our culture became, uh, uh, very heavily influenced by, um, by, um, Western culture, our spiritual people and leaders, um, took all our teachings, our sacred teachings, um, that written on bark tablets. And they, um, they put them in, uh, they put them into, um, um, put them into a, uh, an Ironwood log and sealed it and they put it into a cave somewhere. And so that particular chapter is built around that. The little boy you might think of in terms of more symbolic, um, there could be a little boy, uh, and it could be a little boy, but little boy could also represent, um, our, um, our, our spiritual practice because in our ceremonies and, um, little boy, uh, represents the, uh, the water drum.
Speaker 3 00:32:58 Nice. Nice. So, uh, before we wrap up here, uh, Thomas, uh, what are you going to be working on next? Well, I was working on something and, uh, I have, uh, I have a pile of rejection manuscripts. Um, this is what as tall as I am. So, uh, um, other stories I was that they go, well, you know, it's good to hear that you're human. And, um, I like the rest of us. Uh, um, that's wonderful. I tell you, Thomas, it's been an honor and a privilege to talk with you. Uh, it's Thomas peacock, the book is the Wolf's trail and Ojibwe story told by wolves. Um, you can get it wherever books are sold. I'm pretty sure about that. Uh, uh, thank you so much, Thomas. It's just been a treat. Thank you very much for having me. Yeah. Wish you all the best. Uh, and with that, Josh, we'll turn it back to you in the studio,
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Speaker 1 00:35:59 You are listening to K FAI 90.3 FM in Minneapolis and on the web at <inaudible> dot org. I'm Liz Alz. And this is your what's happening calendar of literary events brought to you by the rain taxi review of books on Wednesday, November 4th, that's tomorrow from 7:00 PM to 8:00 PM. Books and bars discusses virtually the vanishing half by Brit Bennett. Join us for a virtual discussion with this local comics creator on Thursday, November 5th, from 7:00 PM to 8:00 PM at moon pals books, join blue Della quanti about their book meal coauthored with Soliel hope on Thursday, November 5th, from 7:00 PM to 8:00 PM. Author speaker and creativity expert Mary Potter Kenyan we'll be live on the majors and Quinn Facebook page discussing her latest book called to be created. And on Sunday, November 8th, from 12:00 PM to 1:00 PM, join Mizner for a virtual launch of the summer 2020 issue, Misner, queer and trans voices readings from authors, Marlin M Jenkins, Joe caddie, ni hel Berberich, Trish Sutta and guest editors and CUDA cur. This has been your what's happening calendar of literary. That's brought to you by the rain taxi review of books. There are many other events you can check
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Speaker 4 00:40:35 I am here as Juan Manuel Munoz is a physician political scientist, futurist business administrator, musician, and social activist in the areas of human rights passivism. And I'm moving towards a sustainable environment from primates to politicians. It's a fascinating journey between the animal side of the human species, and politicians explores the reasons for many human behaviors based on the evolution of species and the resources necessary for life. Welcome to Ray on radio one. Thank you for the interview. So I want to ask you initially, so your, your, uh, vision scientists, how does one become an ophthalmologist and political scientist?
Speaker 0 00:41:12 Yes. He made it out of school, were taught to care about people's health and health is more than the absence of disease. ESA will be biological, social, psychological, and even spiritual wellbeing. All in political sciences. It gave me a better understanding of a
Speaker 5 00:41:34 Health to achieve that social wellbeing.
Speaker 4 00:41:37 You talk about in the book, how binocular vision was an important factor in the expansion of brain structures and increasing our brain size. How did binocular vision allow for expanded brain structure?
Speaker 5 00:41:49 Yes, eh, binocular region is a complex process. Every time a complex process appears in the human brain. They new structures, new pathways are needed to make it more efficient by nuclear research is not just a biological evolutionary advantage is also a process that has improved the human brain.
Speaker 4 00:42:14 The process you're referring to is natural selection. And, uh, I want to talk about that for a little bit while natural selection is significant. I was surprised to learn from this book that it's, despite how roundly supported different evidence has been out there for it. It's one of the theories most widely accepted by scientists, but it's also the one that doesn't get talked about as much in the public. Why don't we hear that enough in the public sphere?
Speaker 5 00:42:37 Yeah. Josh is a very interesting question. It seems like there's something missing between the scientific world and come on people, the communication is not clear and it's not enough. In fact, every day you can see more conspiracy theories and they're more pseudoscience rather than more science among common people.
Speaker 4 00:43:02 Can you explain for our listening audience? I was, I did not realize this, but there are two different schools of thought when it comes to primatology are two different branches. There's what's Western primatology, which I referred to as a, for my own notes, like a psychological anthropocentrism and Japanese primatology, which is more sociological and base off of primates in their natural element.
Speaker 5 00:43:24 Yes. Well, both of them started few years ago, world war two in Japan, they started serving in monkeys in their natural environment. They, they just observe what goes on in me too. And in Western primatology, they have a story of the same primates, but in lab control conditions. So allow the scientists to have experience on them.
Speaker 4 00:43:55 Yes. You mentioned a small detail that I think is worth analysis in itself. Why are so many primatologists, mostly women and political scientists, men.
Speaker 5 00:44:06 That's a good question. I don't have an answer for that. I don't want to see that there is an issue with gender in biting. In fact, we have very good primatologists that are male, and we have very good political scientists that are a women, but I don't know why this is different for one branch of science then Hm.
Speaker 4 00:44:37 Humans have five dimensions to our personalities of extroversion, conscientiousness, openness, neuroticism, and agreeableness. What dimensions a personality have been observed in primates outside of humans.
Speaker 5 00:44:51 Okay. Then the most tolerant of the privates outside humans in our sheep, Aziz air, they have a suite of the dimensions we have, they have a regalness extroversion and they also have openness. Okay. But the other two dimensions we have as human beings are replacing them by its suite or dimensions, dimension or neuroticism in humans might be a chemo to a dimension of rapidness in Asian pansies. We'll ask the consciousness dimension in human beings is replaced in chimpanzees by two dimensions. One of them is about being metabolic and the older is about being dominant.
Speaker 4 00:45:47 You say in the book that anthropocentric mentality robs us of learning about the possibility of learning about ourselves and understand the relationship between our biology and politics. How so?
Speaker 5 00:46:00 Okay. If we understand in mankind is human beings just as something different from the rest of nature that erupts the opportunity to totally human beings as part of the rest of the, of the animals, as Eve will understand human beings as part of an evolution as part or innate to that evils the opportunity to learn from all our species, from all our societies or animals, and to extrapolate that knowledge, to understand better our societies
Speaker 4 00:46:46 Hmm. Politics. You talk about, isn't an exclusive activity for humans. Animals have their own organizational structures for organizing their societies. How can we understand human societies better to the study of animal societies?
Speaker 5 00:47:02 Okay. Eh, human societies are not isolated. As I told you before is in a societies that are part of law process of evolution, millions of years and older species also have a issues that we are discussing nowadays before selection. For example, migration, no, it will still in market. We can see some patterns of migration and the reaction or them when they have migrants out and in their groups, understand better those problems in all our species. Give us a more elements to understand the growing each human societies, and also give us a new opportunity to get better solutions to the problems we have. Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:48:01 In a book about animals and politics, a question that has only gained more relevance you addressed directly are homosexual interactions. Natural.
Speaker 5 00:48:10 There are natural. There are natural. There are, there are very common in different species, at least 10 to 20% of different species of animals have homosexuals in humans, almost also networks. Okay. We have to make the difference between natural and normal when you're standing or modality as a, how come it is. Okay. Maybe most of the individuals are not homosexual. Okay. That makes almost <inaudible> something not normal, but it's natural. It's natural. It's part of our species. It's part of the animal kingdom.
Speaker 4 00:49:01 I was wondering if you could explain a greater length, this notion of theory of mind stating leadership is nothing more than a product of asymmetric information management among individuals in a group I'm trying to obtain social advantage. What does that really mean?
Speaker 5 00:49:16 It brings it, the animals. Leadership is yours in the school in terms of, eh, full reproduction. Okay. And the leader guides the rest of the group and in the case of humans, and we're more complex handles in order to guide a group, we have to have a better knowledge of the environment and a better knowledge of ourselves and issue in New York. Every time you have a symmetrical distribution of knowledge, we one with more knowledge about the environment and the growth and UVB will knowledge or issue of the members of the group, that person, or that, that person will have the advantage to become a leader within the group.
Speaker 4 00:50:20 So you talk a little bit, how primates have a limitation for their cognitive ability to be able to in interpreting and understanding populations, is there a limit for human populations that can exceed their cognitive building?
Speaker 5 00:50:38 Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:50:38 Is there a limit of, for human populations that can exceed their cognitive ability for individuals? The number I'm thinking of which I was, I was going to ask about you, didn't directly mentioned the book is I think it's around 250 people. We can maintain social interactions or have contact with people. And there's a point if you exceed that amount, it's default goal for us to maintain and be able to process that. I was wondering if you could talk about that a little bit and for primates.
Speaker 5 00:51:01 Yes. You know, our patients just have around 60,000 years on earth. Okay. But to have an important change in our genes to adapt to these situation, we need around 50,000 years. So our genes are genes of small groups of Honduras nine gathers AF especially after every development of agriculture, we have, eh, had increasing number of individuals in our societies to reach that number of individuals in this society. We have, eh, we needed communication. Okay. Especially speech. So we have to socialize more to have a more, a complex society of more individuals.
Speaker 4 00:52:05 And based on, uh, you, you talked about your comparative studies in the book, on the discussion of socialization, uh, demonstrate that it's crucial to enlargement of the human brain. If we keep increasing our signs, our lines of communication, would this increased our need for moral neural connections. And if that's the case, then what does that mean? Humans are getting smarter through social media.
Speaker 5 00:52:28 That is a very good question. That is a very good question. We can have that extrapolation. We can say something like that, like, okay, we're having more communication that will lead those two more complex societies, and then we will need a better, better connected brains and maybe bigger brains. Well, we can not blame those programs in these kids has yours within one or two decades with us. And we have to continue serving a what change is occurring our brain. In fact, even just in the last decade, we have been observing that in use of social media in Greece is some mental diseases. So IDC says, well, we don't know in the future, when, when will we find in, in our brain as a whole
Speaker 4 00:53:31 On the topic of the future. My last question for you and perhaps the most difficult one is have a really good line in the book, uh, on a discussion of politics, you said politics remains an art far from being able to decipher and evolutionary politics, I think is an example of how it's become more interdisciplinary in the Brown, political science. What other fields of study do you think will be integrated in political science in the future, based off more research and more understanding.
Speaker 5 00:53:58 Okay. I will go back to one of the first questions. Do you remember? I told you there's something missing between scientific knowledge and common people. Well, there's also something missing between scientific these greens and maybe in the future, we won't see the development of something as specific to understand more politics. Maybe what we will see is a better connection between different branches or sciences, different branches of knowledge. So we can integrate them to have better understanding of them as a whole. Eh, for example, in political science, the sciences, it, they, they considered for example, a rheumatology and maybe they also go consider a medicine. Okay. I neurosciences. But all those branches of sciences are really running, are really generating new knowledge that can just be integrated in what we're studying.
Speaker 4 00:55:16 I really hope so.
Speaker 5 00:55:19 Indeed, indeed. Neurosciences will be the next boom in political sciences. Well, I'm not sure that it will be that easy for us to restart human brain. You know, we're trying to resign human brains for centuries.
Speaker 4 00:55:37 Yeah. That is it. We are at a time, but you've listening to my interview with Juan Manuel Munoz about his new book from primates to politicians, Juan. Thanks so much for being here on the show with us.
Speaker 5 00:55:49 Thank you very much yours. And
Speaker 6 00:55:53 <inaudible>
Speaker 0 00:56:40 C a P I U S a <inaudible> you are listening to right on radio 90.3, FM, Minneapolis and streaming
Speaker 4 00:57:07 On the
[email protected]. I'm Louisville. And I'm Josh Webber. I'd like to thank our guests tonight, Juan Manuel Munoz and Thomas D peacock. Plus our listeners who make this show possible without your support and donations cafe, I would not be possible. You can find more news and info about right on radio at cafe.org/programs/write on radio. Plus listen to recent episodes on our recently launched podcast found on Spotify, iTunes, and anywhere podcasts can be found. Bone Minnesota has been preempted this evening for live coverage from democracy now going over the results of the 2020 presidential election. So stay tuned.
Speaker 0 00:57:47 <inaudible>.
