Speaker 0 00:00:00 <inaudible>
Speaker 1 00:01:53 You are listening to right on radio on cafe 9.3 FM and streaming live on the web at <inaudible> dot org. I'm Josh Weber tonight on radar radio and Dave FEDEC. We'll be talking with Cynthia Miller Aegis about her new book hate in the Homeland. The new global far-right Miller address is professor of sociology and education at the American university in Washington, DC, where she directs the polarization and extremism research and innovation lab per peril in a center for university excellence and our Manny Harvey in the last half of the hour, I will be talking with Margie Prayas the New York times best-selling author of the Newbury honor winning book, heart of a samurai and other notable books for young readers. Her books have been honored as ALA I L S C notables and selected as an NPR backseat club, backseat book club pick, pardon me? Um, new in 2020, our village of scoundrels, the littlest Voyager shore and the silver box, which is part of the enchantment like mystery series, all this and more. So stay tuned to write on radio.
Speaker 2 00:03:05 Dave, are you with us? Ready to go? Sound good to me? Okay.
Speaker 3 00:03:11 Okay. Thanks Amy. Hi everyone. This is Dave and I am really thrilled to be speaking with Cynthia Miller. I address her address, address your address. Okay. I was wrong twice. That's very typical of me. Uh, thanks for being on the show. Congratulations on the book. That's true. Thanks for having me. I see it get mentioned. You're very welcome. I want to begin with a very basic question. So we know what we're talking about, which is to say what is the far right. But I would like you to answer that question in terms of two words in the title of your book, which I kind of feel like you're not positioned to each other, but I, but they aren't having read the book and they're key to understanding what your point is. So that would be Homeland and global. So, uh, if you would please.
Speaker 4 00:03:57 Yeah. So, um, first thanks for having me. It's great to be here and I'm delighted to have a chance to chat about this. Um, the far right is an I say in the book, it's not a great term. I don't even really like the term. I think it's the best bad term we have available as I describe it. Uh, it is, uh, a spectrum of, um, of extremist fringe groups that are United mostly by their sense of threat. And that's where the Homeland part comes in. There's a sense of entitlement kind of to land, um, a sense of threat and then how that threat is defined. Depends on what the group is. So you have antigovernment extremists who see the government itself as the threat white supremacist extremists who are threatened by demographic change or immigration. Um, there's a single actor, antiabortion extremist groups that fall on the far right fringe, uh, conspiracy theorists.
Speaker 4 00:04:48 Um, so these are groups that are anti-democratic that promote authoritarianism, refuse to protect minority rights, usually set up hierarchies of inferiority and superiority and use violence to enact their political goals. But it's global, um, because it's not just something that's happening here in the U S we've seen us 320% increase in, right when Tara globally, just over the last five years. And so there's a global narrative about this. They imitate each other, they get inspired by each other's acts and they copy the narratives. So we're even seeing that right now with, um, protests against coronavirus restrictions happening across Europe and in the U S using very much the same kind of language, um, to protest some of the same symbols too,
Speaker 3 00:05:34 Is this, thank you. Is this, transnationalism something new, like, uh, you know, social media sort of way land, or is this been going on for some time and just maybe
Speaker 4 00:05:42 For some, yeah, it's been going on for some time, but social media has accelerated it. I would say that the phenomenon makes it much easier. It sort of underpins the whole thing. It's an online ecosystem that supports the communication, the sharing on the terrorist fringe, they share tactics and bomb making techniques and materials that they've traveled to see each other. They, but we saw back in the eighties and nineties, um, you know, far-right rock concerts and festivals, gatherings across borders and these right, you know, sort of, uh, white supremacists, Neo Nazi bands would go on tour. And then those festivals became gathering spots for kind of neo-Nazis and white supremacist extremists across the globe. So, so there has been going on for a long time. It's just much faster, much easier to connect now than it ever was before.
Speaker 3 00:06:30 So this idea of place and space sort of was reinforced for me. I didn't don't, I don't really think about it that much when I think of the far. Right. Uh, so it was a key point for me. Uh, how do white separatism and white nationalism, uh, fit in with that space and place narrative?
Speaker 4 00:06:48 Yeah, so the white separatists are a part of the white supremacist fringe, although they would deny that usually it's same with white nationalists. They tend to, they argue that they are, um, promoting white civil rights or that they want separation of racial, ethnic groups. As I argue in this book, when you see those plans through to their logical conclusion, which always involves kind of different rights for people who are ethnic minorities in those different citizenship rights or voting rights, if you have a mixed ethnic marriage and a white ethno-state, let's say, um, it's clear that their supremacy evolved, there's still hierarchies of superiority and inferiority. So I think following that to its logical conclusion shows that white separatists and white nationalist groups are white supremacist groups, but they are groups. There's a sort of subset of them that, that advocate for physical separation onto white ethnic States, and then other ethnic groups would have their own, uh, ethnic States. And those kinds of proposals exists across borders. You see it in Germany, um, and other places that are calling, if not for an actual ethno state, they're calling for, um, kind of what they call autonomous areas that are separate and fully independent and run separately from governments. So they could be, um, re really separate among racial groups.
Speaker 3 00:08:05 W what's your sense for the degree to which those ethno States that's a great term. Those ESMO States exist in America today. Um, and I, of course I don't mean a great expanse of an actual state, but it could be as small as a, a real intense neighborhood or a particular town or a private native space.
Speaker 4 00:08:24 It's a great question. Um, so we definitely have seen, I mean, obviously the history of segregation or residential segregation in this country alone means that there were micro ethno States kind of set up if you will, micro ethnic communities set up within cities within regions. Um, because of the way that, um, housing mortgage laws worked, formal segregation, school segregation worked really preventing, um, you know, uh, intermarriage in the segregation laws. I mean, uh, preventing, um, interracial marriage. I mean, we had all kinds of legal ways of separating races up until a couple of, you know, a few decades ago. And there were also state, you know, you look at the Pacific Northwest in States like Oregon, there were, there were specific kinds of rules, um, that lead histories in particular parts of the country to be, uh, to have been designated by these groups as the regions where they want there to be the ethno state.
Speaker 4 00:09:21 So they say the Pacific Northwest, this is the desired territory typically. Um, and the place where the white ethno-state would be, that's the kind of fantasy. I mean, these are, these are fantasies for these groups and they're animating fantasies, they mobilize and kind of, um, but it's, it's very hard to see how they could ever create actionable plans. And then they use often language in these modern groups that, you know, softer. So they're not quite talking about ethnicity, but they're saying re migration, you know, instead of deportation. So they're modernizing language, they're softening it. Um, and trying to make it seem more palatable.
Speaker 3 00:09:55 So this isn't like a recreation of Jim Crow South. This is something more than that.
Speaker 4 00:10:01 It's something more than that. And again, these are decidedly fringe, I mean, part of what Jim Crow South, and, you know, that was the mainstream, right. You had, um, right. And so, uh, so we still have, I mean, and part of this book is about the creep of extremist ideas into the mainstream. And I think that's part of it is when you see things like, you know, re migration or, or stronger, you know, deportation called forest struggle, border controls, those are the same ideas just in a more mainstream form that are really trying to designate certain people as entitled to certain kinds of land and keep out others. Right? And sometimes those are, those claims are even framed like the Christ church in El Paso terrorists used environmental language and climate change to justify those acts of terror. I'm arguing that because of climate change, there's going to be less space for other people. So there are spatial claims, uh, for white people, meaning that there'll be, and so, you know, there's a scarcity kind of happening. And as a result, we should have stronger border controls. That's the logic. And therefore, I mean, they commit these terrible terrorist acts. So, you know, you, you even see kind of a twisting of, um, ideas sometimes that would have not necessarily fit naturally on the far right spectrum, like environmental and climate change protection, um, arguments being used to argue for very strong anti-immigration and mass violence against ethnic minorities.
Speaker 3 00:11:28 I want to give our listeners, uh, another term that they can take home, uh, which is overturn window. Uh, can you tell us what that is and why we should care about that or how we should,
Speaker 4 00:11:38 The Overton window is really interesting. Concept is a phrase that refers to, I mean, it refer, it really literally emerged from a pamphlet that had a, an actual sliding window, uh, you know, made out of plastic that showed a whole range of spectrum of policy proposals. It's easy to think about it on something like, um, school attendance, right? So, uh, if there's a range of acceptable policy solutions about school attendance, that range from the state has no say in whether kids attend school, um, to, you know, the state mandates mandatory attendance for every kid and there's something in between, right? So we allow some homeschooling, we allow, um, different kinds of attendance policies. Kids, parents could pull them out for special occasion, so that Overton window slides along that spectrum and what's inside the window is what, what the American public considers to be acceptable public policy solutions at any one time.
Speaker 4 00:12:35 And the Overton window moves often through grassroots efforts. So you get, same-sex the legalization of same-sex marriage moving into the Overton window, um, from one side of the spectrum, but you also get stricter border controls, you know, or a Muslim ban moving into, you know, so-called Muslim men moving into the Overton window from another side of the spectrum. And when those rapid shifts happen in what are considered, um, you know, acceptable public policy solutions, when things that used to be considered fringe move. But in my case of what I work on from the far, right, it's the Overton window. That's how you see that kind of mainstreaming of extremist ideas. They start to become, they seem less, um, less unacceptable. It become more normalized,
Speaker 3 00:13:21 But I want to talk about that next. I want to remind our listeners, we're speaking with Cynthia Miller address, author of hate and the Homeland, the new global far, right? So that's a frightening concept for me. I'm not a scholar of these things, but this, this idea of mainstreaming, uh, really comes through strong in your buckets of powerful scene. And, uh, uh, tell us what you mean by mainstream of extremism. And let's talk about how that's happening.
Speaker 4 00:13:49 Yeah. I think a lot of what I have studied over the years and before this book, I had written two books about Germany, which is where I'd been studying school-based responses to extremism in Europe. And I had been studying the mainstreaming of what I call the aesthetic of extremism, which was the shift from what we maybe think of as the racist skin look, a shaved head and bomber jacket and high black combat boots and things that people had seen in kind of the area in brotherhood or Backwoods of Alicia that look to a much more modern mainstream, what then showed up here in the States as the khakis and polo shirts and the Charlottesville marchers. It very much the kid next door, um, clean cut mainstreaming, but often in what I've been studying was coded symbols that unclothing kind of still convey messages of extremist ideas.
Speaker 4 00:14:39 And that cleaning up of extreme ideas was both top-down and bottom-up. So it was a strategic effort on part of fire, right groups to have their ideas seem more acceptable to the public. And they thought that, and they were right, that the public would be more likely to listen to those ideas. If they came in a package that looked much more presentable, but also it met kind of a younger generation of young people who didn't want that uniform look okay, and wanted to be able to blend in with the mainstream. And so, from my perspective, I have been studying school-based responses for all these years. It made it much more difficult for teachers in the classroom who suddenly had this shift and not knowing which kids were the kids who kind of, they needed to reach with ideas about civic education and democracy or protection of minority rights.
Speaker 4 00:15:28 And so it changed the dynamic in schools and the need to diff to understand different kinds of codes and symbols that youth were using, um, to convey their ideology. And that's one way that extremist ideas get mainstreamed is, is really literally in the cleaning up of extreme appearances, um, in ways that kind of obscures some of those extreme ideas. But other times it's through political speeches, through presidential rhetoric, um, through, you know, we have seen, uh, over the last several years, the use of language that just is racist or incendiary or, uh, policies that are, are, you know, anti-immigrant, or again, that kind of Muslim ban, uh, and those kinds of policies also help bring ideas that are strongly anti-immigrant anti, uh, elite that suggests there's a conspiracy theory, motivating a migrant caravan, um, in funding, a migrant caravan, for example, those kinds of conspiracy theories, uh, that, that bleed those into the mainstream where they get picked up then by, by, uh, mainstream media sometimes as well.
Speaker 3 00:16:32 Well, I really hate that term conspiracy theory only because it takes a word used by science, science in science, which is theory, which is an, uh, an explanation based on fact. And it puts it, it links it up with something.
Speaker 4 00:16:45 Well, actually, there's a really interesting, uh, book called, um, uh, let's think of the title it'll come to me in a second, but, um, a lot of people are saying, which makes the argument right now that the, the new conspiracy ism is conspiracy without the theory that we've gotten rid of theories entirely, we're just into conspiracies. And I think there's some truth to that.
Speaker 3 00:17:06 What do you mean by that term? What, what, what should we, it's good for all so much? I don't even know what it means anymore. Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:17:11 I mean, basically, there's, there's a kind of architecture, scaffolding to almost all conspiracy theories that, that, um, say there is orchestration. That's the major thing that there's an orchestrated group typically of global elites, um, often that has antisemitic underpinnings or, or, or blatant antisemitism words, Jewish elites, um, uh, sometimes use the language of cabal, uh, this, this idea that there's, uh, Democrats leads, um, a Jewish, uh, group of Jews globally, who are, uh, in the case of the great replacement, um, conspiracy theory that motivates modern white supremacists they're orchestrating demographic change through immigration, um, and through the, what will ultimately replace whites. And so, uh, sometimes the, in Europe that conspiracy is Muslims are at the helm. So it's saying that Muslims are orchestrating a replacement of Europeans. Um, so that Islam will become dominant in the U S it's typically an antisemitic, uh, conspiracy theory, but it's the same ideas, the same architecture. And, um, regardless of the conspiracy theory, there's always typically orchestration behind it. Somebody is a puppeteer, you know, who's, who's manipulating the strings and has, there's some bigger story out there, um, of bad actors, nefarious actors. We see this in Q and on right now, um, that are, um, that are, that are pulling the strings that are trying to manipulate everybody and cause tremendous harm and often real evil harm. Right. Um, and so, uh, an existential threat, essentially,
Speaker 3 00:18:45 You know, certainly back to mainstream, you have some wonderful anecdotes in your book about types of mainstreaming from cooking shows too, um, which really struck me, uh, to, uh, so-called sport in a name mixed martial arts. Um, can you, I guess I'm one, well, I just can't get over this idea of mainstreaming and about how, uh, it's just parcel of everything we do. Um, is there, uh, in terms of MMA and then I'll let you just tell me about more mainstream ideas, but I just think more about sports, different types of sports. Um, is there anything else besides MMA where this is heavily influenced? I'm thinking of NASCAR.
Speaker 4 00:19:26 Yeah. Yeah. That's an interesting question. I don't know about NASCAR, although it's it, it's there medically possible? I think it's, I think part of them, part of the message in this book is I think that, you know, the extremism is no longer a destination that part of these both online and the way that it leads into the real life in real life settings, you know, extremism has decidedly moved into the mainstream and it doesn't mean you're going to encounter it everywhere you go, but the chance that you or your child or your sibling or aunt or uncle will encounter it as much higher than it used to be, whether that's through a paper flyer on a college campus that directs you to a URL, um, you know, that is a racist flyer and, and just a medic flyer, anti immigrant fire, or whether that is, um, something else, you know, in a, in a mixed martial arts to recruit are actually trying to reach out to someone or use an online gaming.
Speaker 4 00:20:16 I mean, we know that about a quarter of online gamers encounter, white supremacist content while gaming. Um, and so the idea, you know, it just, there's much greater likelihood that you're gonna encounter through means through videos through, um, cooking shows that show up in your feed of recommended videos because of an algorithm where somebody's using that platform to introduce extreme content. So on the sporting side, you know, this there's a long history of soccer hooliganism in Europe. And I think one of the things that, what you see in this, in this new phenomenon is the soccer hooliganism was really like an alcohol fueled, um, undisciplined, um, drunken kind of party scene that was led to a lot of street fights. You know, where Neo Nazi Culligans would kind of attack, um, ethnic minorities in the streets. Let's say, there'd be that kind of, or, or anti-fascists, um, against right-wing extremists in the streets and what the mixed martial arts and combat sports scene has done is kind of recruit from that whole, again, soccer hooligan scene, and turn them into a much, it's a straight edge, no drugs, no alcohol, much more physical fitness focused, um, much more attention to the body and to muscularity all in the name of, you know, kind of preparing for the street battles of the race for, or the apocalyptic end times that are coming.
Speaker 4 00:21:41 And some of that has historical roots. I mean, Hitler was also a fan of jujitsu and the mixed martial arts as a way to train soldiers for street battles. Um, but it's also rooted in this popularity of the sport in general. So it becomes an easy place to recruit. And of course it's like the fastest growing sport in the world. There's, you know, the vast majority of people out there are not, you know, to be recruited into extremist fringe groups, but there are extremist fringe groups recruiting from those scenes. And I think that's kind of the message here is that it exists. There are dedicated gyms owned and operated by right-wing extremist groups, um, in a couple of places around the world, as I talk about in the book. And, and then there are festivals that are dedicated as well, where they come together and, um, tournaments and, and have, uh, there's lifestyle elements, there's brands, they sell clothes, there's merchandise, there's music there, there's food. Um, so it becomes a whole kind of lifestyle and scene attached to it as well. It's a community, it's a community. Exactly.
Speaker 3 00:22:46 Yeah. And that's attractive. I'm sure. I want to remind our listeners, we're speaking with too. And with Cynthia Miller address hate in the Homeland, the new global far, right. And the book is as interesting as her speaking and in our, in our conversation, she's an academic and wonderful scholar you are. And, uh, uh, but the book is relatively short and there's so much in it. I can't, I can't recommend it more highly. I want to ask you to kind of, uh, I don't know what kind of question, but how should I feel about living in a country where this is going on? How should people feel listening to this about this happening? It's just, should I just hate all these people should grade? What can I do? Well,
Speaker 4 00:23:25 I wrote the book actually. I mean, I, and I, you know, I run a research lab where we basically, the book is almost like an agenda. Um, for the research lab, we are now designing and testing intervention ideas out of the box intervention ideas to see what might work in cultural spaces. How could you work to create and prevent, um, young people in particular from, from falling into this and how can you better equip parents and caregivers and teachers and coaches, um, with knowledge about what to look for and what are the red flags and, and how would you understand how to intervene more effectively? So we've been developing a series of toolkits on that front for parents and caregivers, um, which people can find at our website at American university. Um, and, uh, you know, they're all free downloadable. We have an education guide as well to an animated video on antigovernment extremism that we created.
Speaker 4 00:24:19 So lots of different tools for folks. Um, so I think, you know, what I, what I want people to take away is, is not a anger necessarily, but concern and, um, awareness. And it's much, much easier to create off-ramps at the beginnings of exposure and the radicalization process than it is to deradicalize or disengage someone. And I think a lot of people are seeing that now with, with these conspiracy theories, um, that are growing really quickly. It's very hard to pull people out once they fallen down the rabbit hole, but it's, you can create offerings and prevent people from getting there. Um, at the beginning, if you know what to look out for.
Speaker 3 00:24:58 Great, great. By the way, Cynthia's last name is hyphenated Miller, hyphen ID R I S S Google it, my friends, and she has a great website. Your personal website is fabulous. Um, my day job, Cynthia, I work with economists who are very happily point out a problem or lay up findings, but almost, or most are very reluctant to go to the policy side. And you're not, not afraid to do that. And I was so pleased to see that at the end of your book, where you stand up and say,
Speaker 4 00:25:27 We're trained not to do it. Um, and you know, I was trained not to do it. I had to retrain myself to, um, to do what I wanted to do, which is create and make suggestions for policy solutions. And I, it's something I deeply regret about academia, I think, is that the perception is that if you start making policy suggestions, you're biased or that there's, um, you're no longer neutral, but I think, you know, when you're talking about extremism and talking about radicalization and to violence, um, and the harm done to vulnerable communities across a wide variety of groups, you know, how can you just analyze and then end the book? Um, so for me, there was never a question. And especially after spending 20 years studying how teachers have been heroically, trying to develop interventions in this space in resurgent, far-right extremism in Germany, there's so many good ideas out there that have to be amplified. And, um, so many interesting and effective strategies globally that we can draw on. And that's what I try to do in the conclusion is, is highlight some of that work that's been done in other places that hasn't really been introduced in the U S
Speaker 3 00:26:36 I've just been given about a minute left, and I hate that, uh, this has been, we could talk forever and he's likely to talk with you about this forever. Definitely.
Speaker 2 00:26:44 Um, so tell us what you're working on next, if you can, I'm sure it's an extension. Well, I'm turning now. It looks like to a new book on, um, misogyny and extremism. So, you know, people ask me often about the issue of gender and, um, you know, how misogyny works, how toxic masculinity works, but also about women's engagement in the far. Right. And, um, so finally I decided I would, I would turn to that and work on that for my next book. So that's what I'm diving into now. Fascinating. I hope we get to see that. And we'd love to have you back on, I'd love to come back again if Cynthia Miller address and the book is, uh, Kate and the home Homeland, the new global far, right. And by the way, you win for having the most questions in most pages in Dade FedEx notebook that say, thank you. Thank you so much, so much. It's been a pleasure. Thanks for having me. I really enjoyed the conversation. Great. Thanks back to you, Josh. Thank you.
Speaker 1 00:27:46 Thank you so much.
Speaker 0 00:27:49 <inaudible>
Speaker 1 00:28:15 Hi. Welcome to right on radio, everyone. This is a 90.3 FM K FAI here in Minneapolis, Minnesota, and anywhere in the
[email protected]. I am very excited to have with us today. Um, the winner of many, many awards, she's got a Newberry, she's got a New York times bestseller. She's an ALA notable. It is, um, Margie. Pro-choice Margie. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 00:28:43 Thanks. Fun to be here.
Speaker 1 00:28:45 Well, um, I know that I'm probably going to want to ask you about many things in your illustrious career as a writer for young offers, but we're going to be mostly focusing on your new book, the silver Fox of the silver box, pardon me today. Um, coming out through the university of Minnesota press, um, if you could start off the conversation by kind of describing the project a little bit, um, and reading a short passage from anywhere in the book, just to kind of get everyone into the feel.
Speaker 2 00:29:17 Okay. Sure. Um, well, the silver box is the third and last of the enchantment like mystery series. So the first is, uh, the first one is entitled in Chapman Lake and it takes place in the summer at a Northern Minnesota Lake where there are cabins and, you know, everyone in Minnesota knows what I'm talking about. I don't have to describe, um, and the second one takes place in the fall and this one takes place in the winter. And originally I was going to have a fourth book that took place in the spring, but as it happens, Northern Minnesota doesn't really have a spring. So there's about one paragraph worth of spring. And, uh, well maybe a couple of more pages than that, um, in this book. And that is about right. That's about how long spring lasts in Northern Minnesota. So, um, so that seems to work out just fine.
Speaker 2 00:30:17 So my hero is Francy fry. She is 17 years old. She spent most of her life in New York city, very living very independently. Both of her parents are dead she's her grandfather is pretty much her, uh, guardian, but, uh, in the first book, she gets an urgent message from her little bit loony old aunts who are great aunts who live at a cabin, or as they spend their summers at a cabin on this Lake and Chapman link. And they talk about murders that are taking place. So Francy hops on a plane and she goes home, or she goes back to the cabin that she had spent summers, um, there when she was young. And, uh, she loves it so much. She ends up staying and going to school in this little town in Northern Minnesota. And, uh, that's the fall book. And then in the winter, she's, she's still in school and she, she really gets herself into all kinds of predicaments. Um, so each look has its own mystery, but there's an overarching mystery that takes all three to solve. And that's really what happened to her mother. And did I say both of her parents were dead? That's terrible. What? I said that just yet, I ever said that because first of all, it's incorrect. And secondly, I don't want to, you know, I, I can't say, I can't say what her mother disappeared. I can't believe I said she was dead. Yeah. Um, spoiler alert, spoiler alert, little, little red alarm emoji.
Speaker 2 00:31:56 No people are going to think she's dead now. Anyway. Well, this is crazy. I, I, uh, should have known better, but, um, you know, I'm just gonna read a little bit, get myself out of this one before I say anything else that's terrible, terribly wrong. Um, and as it happens, the book starts on Thanksgiving weekend. So it seems like a good place to start for a little, um, a little bit of reading. So when she wakes up, um, she, her brother and two of her friends are, have spent the night at her great aunt's cabin. And, um, over Thanksgiving, as I said, and she has come across in the previous book, she has procured a silver box, which she believes will lead her to her mother in some mysterious way. So when she wakes up, she sees that box, but she's a little bit too afraid to try to open it and see what, what mysteries it contains.
Speaker 2 00:33:02 Um, so she goes outside to use the outhouse because this is Northern Minnesota and it's a very rustic spot and they have outdoor plumbing. So, um, I'll start there. She stuffed her feet into Theo's boots. Theo is her brother. All she had brought to the cabin were her sneakers who would have thought it would snow on Thanksgiving weekend. She threw on Theo's park at two and crept outside, trying not to wake the others. First. She made a quick shivery visit to the outhouse and then headed for the woodpile with her head down to keep the falling snow out of her eyes. She couldn't help noticing that many creatures had been up and about. There were the widely spaced, hot marks of a rabbit, and there the little stitch marks of mice and then something that made her stop and stare big human footprints punched into the snow.
Speaker 2 00:33:53 She could still make out the pattern of the tread of boot soles. So they must be fairly recent glancing glancing behind her at the cabin. She wondered if one of her friends or her brother had been out already then gone back to sleep without bringing in any wood to stoke the fire. But the soft depressions in the snow didn't lead to the outhouse or to the woodpile, or even down to the Lake as she would have expected. Instead, they led back into the woods that as far as Francy knew, stretched all the way to Canada, who could it be? All the cabins were shuttered and closed up, not a soul to be seen, not a dock out all boats off the Lake, and definitely no cars. There was no road on the side of the Lake. She pulled Theo's jacket, snug and stood for a moment staring at the Lake or where she knew the Lake to be a dark line of trees was visible along the nearest shore, but everything beyond dissolved into a Misty whiteness, she blinked away the snowflakes on her eyelashes turned and started to follow the tracks as snow settled into the footprints ahead of her.
Speaker 2 00:35:00 They slumped into ill-defined round circles, simple holes punched into the snow that could have been made by anything, a deer, a bear, or she thought at nearly the same time. And she sought standing at the edge of the forest, a Wolf. He was huge and noble with his thick coat of silver gray for and watchful yellow eyes. The royalty of this kingdom, the way the lion is King of the Serengeti, or maybe Francy thought this Wolf was the queen. And queenly, she looked literally shimmering as if silver threads were woven into her coat. The Wolf's yellow eyes, flamed was something that set Francis heart racing, something ancient and wise, utterly wild in some deep place inside her. He felt her own wild nature flutter to life. Then the Wolf shook itself, casting off a glittering shower of snow and disappeared as if in a magician's cloud of smoke Francy, staggered back toward the cabin. The footprints forgotten as if she'd fallen under a spell, the crack of a rifle shattered the stillness jolting through Nancy's straight out of her enchantment and sent her racing to the cabin. We'll stop there.
Speaker 1 00:36:19 Yeah, that was an Epic place to start and a place that segues us perfectly into kind of talking about what I see as kind of the main crux is at least when I was reading of what the enchantment like books are about. Um, kind of finding the intersection between adventure and seeing kind of, um, not even larger than life, but perceived as fantastic things in the real world. Um, kind of this lively, youthful adventures and jokes, spirit, um, but also discussing serious topics about the environment. Um, including like this book alone talks about, um, sulfide, ore, mining, corporate irresponsibility, and corporate greed, and, um, a ratio of native plants at the hands of manufacturers, including seed manufacturers. Um, how do you as an author and a creator of this world, um, strategize the integration of serious topics like environmental research, um, into like a classic lively adventure story that you could give, uh, a middle-schooler
Speaker 2 00:37:27 We'll strategize. I think I heard him say strategize. Um, that's an interesting choice of words. I, I wouldn't say that I, I really strategize anything, but, um, but you know, as I, since I live here, I'm very well aware of all the environmental threats there are to this part in Northern Minnesota is a resource rich, um, in many ways. And, um, and some of those resources, conflict with each other, and it's very, there's a lot of water and there's a lot of clean water and, um, a lot of these other, um, resources to, to extract them, for instance, with mining, um, or pipelines or whatever, you know, that's a threat to our other resource, which is water. So, um, there's a lot of conflict there and that's of course, interesting and writing, but, um, also it's something that interests me. I find that as I'm writing these things, just sort of rear their ugly little heads. No, it's just there, she's, she she's living in Northern Minnesota and these are some of the issues. Um, and interestingly, I should point this out because since I read that part about the Wolf, um, I had a, uh, a reader young reader who suggested to me, um, that I use Wolf hunting as part of the mystery, my next mystery. And I really liked the idea, but then, um, there, uh, they'd stopped hunting wolves.
Speaker 1 00:39:09 Yeah. And
Speaker 2 00:39:11 Then just as this book is coming out, now they have D listed gray wolves. Um, you know, so likely there's going to be hunting again. So, um, and the whole argument about hunting wolves is something that's just been going on. Um, so frequently that it's hard to keep track, you know, or not. Yeah. But, but so, you know, some of these things, they just come up, you introduce a Wolf into a story and then, uh, you know, what, what are all the implications of that? Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:39:48 Yes. Did you have anything close to our in line with our research process for this book? Or were you fully just drawing on, um, things that you knew were, um, preservation issues in the environment that the story is playing out in and thriving in?
Speaker 2 00:40:06 Well, I originally, I started writing this because, you know, I, I also write for historical fiction and I do a lot, a lot of research for each one of those books. And I thought, Oh, it'd be really fun to set a story in, um, contemporary times where I live so that I don't have to do any research.
Speaker 1 00:40:26 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:40:29 It didn't, it doesn't turn out that way at all. In fact, I do quite a bit of research for these mysteries. And as you pointed out, a lot of it has to do with some of these environmental issues that I bring up and other, not just environmental, but other issues. So, and then there's law enforcement. So, um, which I don't know very much about. So I ended up being research about all those sorts of things, but, but the way I do it is not ahead of time. Um, I, I write and then I researched when the story, you know, when I, when I need to know something I in and try and find out more about it that can create, you know, days worth of going into deeper and deeper.
Speaker 1 00:41:13 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:41:14 Until I, you know, eventually I'll end up buying shoes, but that's kind of the way
Speaker 1 00:41:21 I'm assuming you've got a lot of tabs open on your computer at the time, if you're an online researcher.
Speaker 2 00:41:27 Yeah. Well, I use both, you know, and I call when I have, you know, law enforcement, I have fortunately a nephew and his wife who are, um, have been very helpful to me. Oh, kind of questions about that sort of thing. So I just call them up.
Speaker 1 00:41:47 Um, so as we've been saying, this book is set in the North woods and, um, as you touched on briefly at the beginning, the protagonist Francy, she's kind of a city country transplant. She grew up in, she grew up in the East coast and the big cities and, um, is now experiencing all the classic things of Northern Minnesota with all of them being kind of fresh and novel. Um, since you kind of, you kind of hinted at like a convenience and a fun to writing in your own location, but what made you choose to make Francy a transplant rather than a lifer?
Speaker 2 00:42:23 Uh huh. Well, I'm glad you asked that. Um, there's a couple of reasons. One, I think it's the outsider who sees and notices things that the life or takes for granted. Um, for instance, I was struck when I read, um, <inaudible> who, who's a Norwegian who wrote these mysteries set on the North shore of Lake superior. And, um, I was just struck with the things that he noticed it noticed. And one of which is the smell of Duluth. Oh yeah. You know, we live here, it just smells normal. And um, so that's one, that's one advantage of having an outsider come in and as they do, um, I think they observe things in a different way. And, and, um, and what more important lead for me than that is that I have really, um, wanted to show that this place was not dull and boring, which is, uh, my pet peeve about a lot of literature and film where any place in the Midwest just has these dollars and going on boring life kind of bleak, you know, and I, I wanted to show how exciting I was and, and how beautiful and how her life is not boring at all.
Speaker 2 00:44:04 Yeah. She's leaving this place, which everyone would assume would be a very exciting place to live, um, here at city to come and live in a, in a little, in a small town or on a Lake. Sure. And, um, and she finds that she can't get it. It's plenty exciting. Yeah. Yeah. So that's another reason why I chose to have, have her be an outsider.
Speaker 1 00:44:33 Yeah. As, as a Midwestern, my, uh, as a Midwesterner by choice myself, I, I love that. I really enjoyed the representation of all the things that make the place unique and magical and, um, have its own elements of excitement and diversity and such, um, on a, on a kind of silly or note about that. Um, I loved that there were some of the kind of comical elements that someone may not associate with Minnesota if they haven't been from here. Like there's a, there's a, um, villain chase on cross country skis in this book. They talk about all the weird giant statues in the Midwest, like biggest Muskie and stuff like that. Um, I bet it was, I bet it was fun. Uh, picking those and finding ways to plant them. Was that a motive at all for you?
Speaker 2 00:45:22 Oh yeah, definitely. I had to use the giant Muskie. Well, I don't know. I don't know if it's a musky really. There, there is one in Beena. I think it's been a Minnesota. I don't know if it's a Muskie, but I made it into a Muskie. Um, yeah. And all the giant things. Yeah. Yeah. And the, and the cross country DJ's um, yeah, for sure. I, I really, really wanted to get that in there. Um, you know, cause can you think of any other, um, work of literature or a movie that has a cross country ski chase in it?
Speaker 1 00:46:05 No, because I think it translates poorly as a viewing sport. It translates poorly onto television because it doesn't have as many like spur of the moment kind of like wrestling elements that a lot of other sports have. So I think that many people perceive it as not that exciting, but you can get going pretty fast and you can go a huge range of places.
Speaker 2 00:46:29 Yeah. That's, that's one of the things you can do. I mean, yeah. James Bond is always on downhill skis, right. When he's being chased, because of course it's exciting to see them go over, you know, jumps and crevice and lifts, but what if he's go up
Speaker 1 00:46:46 Hill, is he going to take those things off and run and get his leg stuck in the snow and gets to know in his boot? I don't want to get, see him take snow out of his socks.
Speaker 2 00:46:55 There actually is one, one movie that has a cross country ski chase. And it's very old. It's like from the fifties and it's, it's, um, it's called, uh, heroes of Telemark, huh? Kirk Douglas, uh, is in it. And it's based on a real thing that really happened in Norway during world war II. But, um, my kids, when they were in, um, they were just starting, well, probably the very junior high and on the ski team, man, we watched that movie so many times. Oh. And I had that my, in my mind too, when I wrote the scene was that that cross country ski chase.
Speaker 1 00:47:38 Oh, um, additionally in fleshing out kind of the world of this book, um, I think that another part of the book that felt so true to me was the family dynamics of middle-schoolers basically the way Francy and FIO. Her brother kind of had little, little bickering bouts or there's kind of the feelings of like pers me versus me with my family versus me and society kind of stress that Francy goes through in various ways in this book. Um, I know you're quite a, quite a successful and accomplished, uh, writer of books for youth. How do you get into the Headspace of like family dynamics and world dynamics where a young person when you're writing?
Speaker 2 00:48:22 Well, we're all, we, we remained somebody child for our whole lives in a way. Um, uh, yeah, I think that our childhood, especially the emotional parts of it, um, and the relationship, the long-term relationships like you have with a parent, um, those feelings stick with you for a long time. And, um, so I don't, uh, I, that didn't seem, yeah, you don't, you didn't feel like you had to go
Speaker 1 00:48:59 Do a contrived place for it. You're saying like, you didn't have to, you didn't have to channel put on a costume and channel for that one.
Speaker 2 00:49:07 No, I mean, you know, I'm sure a lot of people in this part of the world can relate to that sort of Scandinavian reserve. Um, my family is reserved or anything, but I think talking about emotions, there's not, not a big part of our lives. Yeah. Yeah. Well, um, and you know, there's a certain amount of, uh, avoidance of conflict when it gets into something really deep, like transient her mother have, um, now we are, this is a spoiler now I just realized we are giving it away. So as you can tell, she does her mother doesn't die. Um, but you have to read the book anyway, just to find out how they find each other. Yes, that's the yes. Yeah. They, you know, th there, there, the damage, their relationship is, is deep painful. Um, and so there's a lot there to have to sort through, and I wasn't writing a psychological book, so I didn't, you know, it wasn't going to be about that above doing. It would be more about, we can see they will, you know, they'll get, uh, and, um, the, and so, you know, rather than crack the nut and then go, Oh, well, I've opened the Pandora's box and everything have to search through. Um, it was very natural to me to just have them be very reticent and, um, just not talk very much to each other.
Speaker 1 00:50:54 Yeah. And I think that, especially when you're dealing with someone who has a significant age gap or life experience gap from you, sometimes it feels, it feels most comfortable to stay silent and try to focus on the things that you respect about that person instead of, instead of risking offending them or picking a fight. Yeah. Um, on a, on a similarly emotional, uh, level. Now we're at the we're, we're, we're in deep here. We're not talking about muskies anymore. Um, the moment in the book that felt the most poignant to me and this, this isn't a spoiler, um, on any plot point level, but, um, Francy is thinking about everything that she doesn't know about what her mother's life was like. And she kind of has this broader realization that she doesn't give much thought to learning about other people's lives. Um, and she thinks of her friend, Raven, uh, for those who haven't read the book yet, um, Raven is a native American and much of her family lives on reservations.
Speaker 1 00:51:55 Um, I think it's so common to like start your life, or even default your life to viewing yourself as the protagonist. There's even, there's even like a meme about this on the app, Tik TOK. Um, I'm the main character of this neighborhood, uh, which I find kind of funny. Um, but how did you choose this realization and for this moment and how did you, how did you work to like, make it feel earned for this character? Or if it, if it doesn't feel that contrived for you, um, why did it feel important for Francy to learn that when she did?
Speaker 2 00:52:29 Yeah. That, um, that's an interesting question. I think also when you write in the third person limited it's limited. Yeah. So you are really focused on that one person's mind and, and what they're doing. And, and so it's easy as a writer to become very, keep that focus really tight on that person. And, uh, so you know, that might've been, some of it was my own feeling like, you know, broadening, I think some of it is, you know, this is, she's got, we've gone through three books with her and, um, she's growing up, she's going to graduate from high school. And her world is really broadening in, in, in, uh, in the way that she relates to it. Not she's always had quite a broad world, but just the way she, she relates to it.
