Speaker 1 00:00:11 You are listening to right on radio on K a I 90.3, FM and streaming live on the
[email protected]. I'm Josh Weber tonight.
Speaker 2 00:00:20 Liz olds talks with Matt bell. Author of refused to be done, how to write and rewrite a novel in three drafts.
Speaker 3 00:00:33 Matt, can you hear me?
Speaker 4 00:00:36 I can. How are you?
Speaker 3 00:00:37 I'm doing great. How are you doing?
Speaker 4 00:00:40 I'm good. Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 3 00:00:42 Oh yeah. Well, thanks for joining us. Uh, you said, uh, I, I understand you said that, uh, you had an introduction to your book that you wanted to share with us.
Speaker 4 00:00:52 Oh, I can definitely do that. Yeah. <laugh> um, I'm ready if you are.
Speaker 3 00:00:58 Pardon me?
Speaker 4 00:01:00 I'm ready if you are.
Speaker 3 00:01:01 Yes, go right ahead.
Speaker 4 00:01:03 Great, great. Uh, yeah, my, uh, book refused to be done, how to write and rewrite a novel and three draft is a guide to novel writing scene through the lens of write, uh, revision and rewriting looking at the path from sort of initial conception of the book all the way through the final draft that you would send to readers or agents or editors.
Speaker 3 00:01:26 Okay. That's great. Uh, you say one of the first things a novelist needs to do is to say to himself, perhaps stand in front of the mirror and say to him or herself, I am a writer. I am writing a novel. Uh, how does this basic affirmation get, uh, one, uh, to the right foot?
Speaker 4 00:01:50 Yeah, I, I think one of the things that's a really struggle when you're writing a novel, especially writing your first novel is that, uh, you don't always have a lot of proof that you can do it. I think people have struggle to claim the title of like writer, like the idea, like, am I, a writer makes people feel kind of anxious. Um, it's something that feels like it needs outside affirmation, but I really love the idea of like the verb writing. Like I'm writing a novel, which is something you're kind of either doing or you're not. So anytime you're writing, you can claim that for yourself. It's just an act you're doing. So any day that you sit down to work on your book is a day you're writing a novel. And I think that that's easier to hold onto than the idea of like being a novelist or being a writer, uh, because somebody you can claim for yourself. And I think there's something really powerful in just claiming those options and those are something we're doing as opposed to something we're being. And I think that's an easier thing to hold onto at the beginning of the process.
Speaker 3 00:02:46 Now you kind of suggest not outlining, but I'm wondering if you could talk about the pros in, cause cuz you did talk about some pros of outlining too of outlining.
Speaker 4 00:02:57 Yeah. I, I think, you know, there's many different ways to write a novel and certainly the way I outline in the book I'm now using outline, um, it's not the only way to do it, but I think for me, uh, I mostly have not started with outlines that I've started sometimes with, uh, an image that I'm interesting exploring. Sometimes I know a little bit about my character sometimes. I, I think more often I know like the setting that I want to explore and I think what I really think of a first draft as is an exploratory draft that I'm discovering the novel by writing the novel that I'm finding the material by looking at the material. I do outline, uh, in my process and now process by describing the book in the second draft and what I do is I outline the draft already written.
Speaker 4 00:03:39 And then I use that outline as a guide for revision to use that, to sort of study what I've made and to imagine a better version of it. Um, I think it's really hard to know before you start what the book is or what the book wants to be. Uh, there's this idea from Richard Hugo where he talk, he is a poet, but he talks about in poetry, the triggering subject and the real subject and that the triggering subject is what makes you want to write the book. So you start with that. And then at some point there's a turn towards sort of the real subject or the real version of the book. And I think sometimes outlining before you start makes it harder to make that turn, cuz you're a little over sure. Of what the book is. Uh, and by being a little more flexible or a little more exploratory in the first draft, since it's easier to arrive at like the best possible version of the book
Speaker 3 00:04:26 You suggest too using, well, this is an improv tool, the yes and improv tool. And you talk about that in the book. Uh, why don't you describe what that uh, tool is and how it helps with writing the book?
Speaker 4 00:04:39 Sure. Uh, in improv the idea of yes. And is simply that you're working on stage with a partner you're, uh, creating a story without, uh, without any guidelines without knowing what's gonna happen and the first person to speak posits a scenario, um, uh, you say like I'm a janitor on a space station and if the other person says, no, you're not, then the story ends and that's sort of the end of the thing. So, you know, if you shut down that initial inspiration, but the second person says, yes, you are a janitor on a space station and the gravity's just gone off, then you're in the middle of a story. And so one of the things I suggest is like kind of cultivating that yes, and thought even with yourself, um, so that you write something on day one and the next day you sit down and look at it, instead of saying like, no, this is a bad idea.
Speaker 4 00:05:26 I shouldn't write this book. You say yes to your ideas that are already on the page. And then you try to add to 'em. So you yes and yourself. Um, what I find with students often is, uh, a lot of my students who are writing short stories, try to write stories all in one sitting mm-hmm <affirmative> because they have trouble coming back to it. The second day they come back. The second time they go, oh, maybe this wasn't a good idea and they give up, but if you're gonna write a novel, you really can't write it all in one day or you probably can't write it all one day. And so learning to come back to the work and to be excited about it and to build on, on what's there. And what's already working, feels like a really essential tool for novelists.
Speaker 3 00:06:03 You have a lot of suggestions, uh, a lot, especially for the first draft and then more for the second and third, but, uh, what suggestions do you think are the best ones for, I realize this is asking you what your favorite child is, but, um, uh <laugh> what are some of the ones that you like the best, especially right now, we were talking about the first draft. Let's talk about the first draft, uh, for, uh, moving forward or, or getting yourself rolling with this first draft.
Speaker 4 00:06:33 You know, I, I think one of the things that's hardest in the first draft is, is kind of suspending judgment. Um, I think a lot of us wanna know, especially when you're setting off like a big project, like writing a novel that could take several years, you wanna know in advance, is it good? Is it worth doing, will it succeed? Uh, and I'm not sure you get to know that at the beginning. And so one of the things you're trying to do is, is to spend judgment for as long as you can, that you're sort of letting the thing be what it needs to be. And I think part of that is trying to follow your own excitement rather than like what you think other people might like or what you think might be sellable to editors or publishing houses that you're really just trying to follow your own joy and your own wonder and your own interest.
Speaker 4 00:07:16 Uh, there's an idea in the book that comes from a novelist named Charlie Smith, uh, that he called writing the islands. And I think this is one of like the most key suggestions for first draft. And what Smith meant by writing the islands was that you write the part of the book that you can see that you're interested in right now, um, rather than trying to get to that part, rather trying to save that for later that you spend it all right now that you put the scene you're most excited about down on the page, um, when I've been giving a lecture version of this book a lot this spring, and one of the things that always lights people off in the audience is, uh, I say most of you are probably here writing a first novel because there's like one scene you really wanna write, like, that's the reason you're writing your book.
Speaker 4 00:07:59 And then I ask how many people have written that yet. And it's almost always almost no one, right? They haven't quite written the thing. That's like the reason to writing the book. And I think the writing, the islands idea is if you get it down on the page, uh, more good ideas will come that by, by making room, by writing that you make room for other things, it also means that your manuscript contains the thing you are most excited about. You're gonna rewrite it anyway. You're gonna revise it anyway, you can't ruin it by trying to write it. And I think that's really important. It's a way of staying in contact all the time with its most interesting or vital to you in your own manuscript. Um, and that seems like a way to, to, you know, you have to stay in love with the book for a long time to write it. And by writing the things you're most excited about all the time, that's one of the ways to do that in the early going.
Speaker 3 00:08:46 It sounds like sometimes the younger writers almost wanna punish themselves by writing the hard stuff first and not giving themselves the joy of writing the writing, the islands, as you say.
Speaker 4 00:08:58 Yeah, I think there's some truth to that or, or even the idea of, um, that they have to like prove everything before that they have to somehow like, like earn it or get to it. I think there's a real fear in not just young writers, but writers of, of all ages, um, that we're not good enough to write the books. You wanna write that we're not good enough to write the scenes you wanna write. Uh, but I think the truth is you become the writer. You wanna be by writing the books you wanna write. Um, every book I've written is something that I feel like I'm not really ready for when I start out or I feel like I can't do it. Um, I was just today facing in the book I'm writing now the like, how am I gonna do this? How I'm gonna figure this out.
Speaker 4 00:09:37 Um, in some ways it never gets easier, but the, the exciting thing is sort of moving into that sort of doubt and moving into that learning. Um, I saw maybe 10 years ago, the, the writer Ann Carson is one of my favorite writers, give a talk and you know, she's written, uh, novels in poetry and she's a critic and she's a translator and she has all this different stuff. And someone in the audience asked her, like, why have you written so many different kinds of books? And, and she just looked straight at after me and said like, every time you write a book, you learn how to write that book. And then you're done learning how to write that book. You learn how to write another book mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I was like, right, that's kind of the goal as opposed to something to like wait for or to flee from that we want to be growing by writing. Um, and so yeah, writing towards the things that are most exciting to us instead of avoiding them is one of the ways we become the writers and the people we want to be.
Speaker 3 00:10:26 We're speaking with Matt bell here tonight on, right on radio, on his book, refuse to be done, how to write and rewrite a novel in three drafts. You know, when I read that title first, I thought it said three days and I was like, oh, good. I wanna know how to write
Speaker 4 00:10:42 A novel in three
Speaker 3 00:10:42 Days <laugh> but then I got into the book and it was like, no, it's three years maybe, or maybe more than that.
Speaker 4 00:10:49 <laugh> so, yeah, I, uh, you know, uh, Michael Ock is a, a science fiction and fancy writer, uh, as being of his career, uh, wrote books in three days. There's this great interview where he talks about how to do it, but I've learned a lot from, but I also never wanted to write a book in three days. Uh, but he had this whole process for like, if you're set up in this way, you can write 60,000 words on like a weekend. Um, but that seemed tough and maybe not advisable for most of us,
Speaker 3 00:11:17 I can't see doing it. Uh, so, uh, we were talking a little bit about this, or you were talking a little bit about this when you were talking about the book you're working on now, but what I wanna ask is, uh, and you, you, you address this in the book in, in some places, what do you do when you get stuck? What do you do? You know, when you are facing the page and it just looks blank and nothing's coming.
Speaker 4 00:11:41 Yeah. Um, which does happen, right? I mean, in some ways it's just one of the things that that's gonna happen in every project. You're you lose steam for a little bit. You have parts where doesn't go well, um, I wrote two novels before my first published novel, but when I was writing the first draft of my, my first novel that got published, I remember like halfway through it this month where like my enthusiasm was just really low and I felt like this isn't very good. I'm gonna be able to see it. When I go back, I'm gonna be able to see this month where I wasn't that enthusiasms about the book. Um, and you know, I think in the end, it wasn't really that much different than the rest of it. We all have days we're not enthused about our jobs and we do them pretty well anyway.
Speaker 4 00:12:19 Right. Um, and sometimes the days where most enthused aren't any better than others, uh, I do think there are ways to get unstuck. Um, when, when I teach an operating classes, I, I assign students to write about 2,500 words a week or 500 words, five days a week. And that's about two pages, double space. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Uh, and so one of the things I suggest when, uh, every day starting out by revising like the last three pages that you wrote, and if you do that means you're always kind of going back like a day and a half, and you're sort of remembering what you've done and leading yourself back toward the kind of blank edge of the page. And I think that that's really helpful. Um, this is something that's not in the book. So just be an extra thing. Uh, I assigned my students this semester, these three themes to write when they were stuck.
Speaker 4 00:13:04 And they're all about, um, making your characters act and also seeing them in a relationship to other people. So these are three scenes that are about your character's relationship to their own power and to other people's power. And so I had students write a scene in which their protagonist does something to someone else, which means they act upon them a scene in which the protagonist does something for someone else, which is they act on their behalf and then a scene in which the protagonist has something done to them where they're acted upon, and then they react. Um, and those three themes are all create cause and effect, which is usually the reason you're stuck is cuz there isn't any sort of causality happening in your book. There isn't this scene isn't making necessary the next scene. And by writing these scenes in which characters are acting and choosing and doing things, uh, it's one of the ways to get your book in motion again.
Speaker 3 00:13:53 So would you say that lots of descriptive passages about the beauty of the mountains is not necessarily, uh, good for the book or, or it can be in places
Speaker 4 00:14:06 <laugh> yeah. I mean, I, I I've, uh, I was a nature writer to some extent. I don't mind the passage about the beauty of the mountains. Um, I think the, the main thing is the descriptive passages, uh, should reveal something about the characters, right? The, the, the person seeing that beautiful mountain is a character who sees it in a particular way. Um, we were talking at the beginning of this conversation about like not outlining. And one of the, the interesting things to me is that if you just described things through the, through the eyes of a character, through the mind of a character that even when you're just describing a mountain, that mountain tells you something about the person who's seeing it, it's not neutral. Right. Um, that each of us would describe that same mountain in different place. Some people would hate being on the mountain, right. So they wouldn't see it as a beautiful mom. Um, and so, uh, there's nothing wrong with scenery. There's nothing wrong with setting. Um, in fact, setting of course is one of the most powerful tools, but it works by, uh, revealing itself through the lens of a character. So anytime someone's seeing something and feeling something about that setting, then you're probably okay. As long as you're moving towards action and choice and change,
Speaker 3 00:15:14 I had a teacher once tell me not to start a book writing about the weather, but we live in Minnesota up here <laugh> and, and the weather is very important to us. So <laugh>, so I feel like it's okay to start a book by writing about the weather.
Speaker 4 00:15:26 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, how many, how many conversations start with the weather? Right. I mean, it's sort of, it's the one thing we all share is the weather we're under, um, I'm from the Midwest. I grew up in Michigan. Oh, right. And lived in the, uh, yeah. Uh, but now live in Arizona, which are, you know, two extremely different sort of weathers. Um, and I had trouble when I first moved to Arizona, cuz there were like wasn't enough weather to trigger my Midwestern, uh, emotions and memories. So I, I think, uh, being in Minnesota and thinking about the weather feels very correct to me.
Speaker 3 00:15:57 <laugh> okay. Uh, I have another question here. Um, you talk about this and, and it's a question you poit, and I'm wondering if you could kind of answer it, which is what is the first draft and what is not a first draft?
Speaker 4 00:16:13 Oh yeah. <laugh>, that's interesting. Um, I think for me like a first draft, especially if it's your first novel, ideally you write all the way to, you have a beginning in a middle and an end. Um, I, I really see over and over that, uh, that writing a whole first draft creates confidence in you as a writer. Even if that book doesn't turn out, even if that book isn't publishable or even really readable, um, some people having gone the distance, having written the whole 300 pages or whatever it is convinces you, that you can do it again so that when you have another idea or maybe a better idea or something that means something more to you that you'll be able to go that sort of distance. If I, if I was writing a first novel again, that would be my goal to have a beginning, middle and end.
Speaker 4 00:16:56 Um, if you have 90% of one, it's not the same thing. Uh, I think, you know, as I've gone on writing, I write more partial first draft. Um, although I always worry that I'm flinching a little bit, but I, I, soon as I can see, like, okay, I've discovered enough about it now I need to stop and outline and plan. Um, but I think, yeah, if I'd never written a novel before I would, I would try to get the whole, a version of the whole thing down, even if it's not perfect, because I think that will give you all the confidence you need to sort of go forward from there.
Speaker 3 00:17:26 Let's move on to the second draft, but I'm wondering, uh, yeah, you suggest something to be done between the first draft and the second draft to make it go well, uh, what, what is that at?
Speaker 4 00:17:38 Yeah, we talked just a little bit at the beginning, but I think my, my first step in the second draft is to make an outline of the first draft. So rather than outlining, before I start, I outline what I've already made. And then I revise that outline into a plan for a, for a better second draft. And I, I think it's trying to get the most, you can out of that organic exploratory first draft, and then also create a course, a well structured, well plotted book so that you, you want to have both those things sort of happen. Um, and then I, I, after I have that outline done, I take it and I rewrite the book from scratch, uh, which is always the part that feels really daunting to say to people. Um, and from scratching to a couple things I, I do keep using the first draft round.
Speaker 4 00:18:24 I let myself retype things from it, but I don't copy and paste things from the first draft into the second. Um, outta the belief that copy and pasting is not rewriting, um, that you'll copy and paste a scene that isn't working or a sentence that isn't very good, but you will get tired of retyping scenes that aren't working. Um, and you'll rewrite them to make them better. Um, if you're a person who hand writes and then types in, you're already doing a version of this, right, you're sort of like re rewriting as you're, as you're typing in what you wrote. Um, and the goal for this, um, there's an Amy tan quote where Amy tan said the second draft is written in the voice of all that happened and that when you're writing that second draft, you're writing it, not trying to figure out what happens in the book, but with this knowledge of what happens in the book mm-hmm <affirmative> and some of that's in the first draft, some of it's in the outline and it sort of combines into this more full conception of what you're trying to do while you're writing that second draft.
Speaker 4 00:19:18 For me, I think that's actually the place where the most work gets done. Um, the really crucial thing for me has to been to do that. And it's been really interesting, both learning how many other writers I know do some version of that. Um, Lauren gro who's one of my, my favorite novelists, um, told me once that she writes a first draft by hand, she puts it in a drawer. She never looks at it again, and she types the second draft on the computer. I've never been quite that brave, but I really think that there's something to that. Um, since this book comes, has come out a couple months ago, I know a lot of writers who've been trying it. It's really interesting to see how many people have found this to be like, like, uh, really changing their book for the better. There, there really is something about the act of rewriting, as opposed to just revising to just tinkering that gets a fuller effect, especially in this transition between the first and second draft
Speaker 3 00:20:08 You, the thing about the fascinating thing to me was the thing about the outliners and, and using the outliners for different kinds of things, different colors of, of outliners for, mm. You wanna talk about that a little bit?
Speaker 4 00:20:23 Yeah. Um, I think this is one of my favorite parts of the process. Maybe for me, this is like late, late in the book when it's all plot completely, it's all structured pretty well. And I'm just trying to make it the best it can be. I'll print out a draft and I'll go through and I'll use highlighters to note a couple different things in the book. Um, for instance, I'll highlight all of the backstory in the book, all the flashbacks, um, I'll go through and I'll highlight all the explanations in the book where, where the narrator's explaining something to the reader, uh, and what I do with both of those, they really try to get rid of as much as possible. Um, Hemingway famously had his iceberg theory that when you're reading, uh, book or reading a story, you only see like 10% of it that the other 90% is sort of hidden from view, but you feel it.
Speaker 4 00:21:09 And I think when I was younger, I thought you were just supposed to be like a genius who could like Intuit the other 90%, right. And not have to put on the page. Uh, but I think what really happens for most of us is we make the whole iceberg and then we remove a lot of it that we want characters to think from their backstory, that when you write those flashbacks, you're making your character's memories, but you don't actually have to include them. All the reader will still feel them. Um, which I find really fascinating. And the other highlighter thing that I, I love. And I think it's is daunting and, and interesting is that will go through the entire manuscript, whether it's a short story or novel, whatever I'm working on. And I will highlight the weakest sentence in every paragraph mm-hmm <affirmative>, which doesn't mean it's bad.
Speaker 4 00:21:50 It just means it's not as good as the other stuff. And then I will try to delete all of those weakest sentences, um, with the goal of leaving the better part of the book on the page and getting rid of the worst percentage of it. Uh, my last novel apple seed and the final version of it has 2,500 paragraphs in it. And I did this to that book. So at some point I went through the book and I took out the 2,500 weakest sentences. Um, of course I had to write some stuff back in to some of those places, but a lot of it just came out and the book got tighter and what was left in the page was better. And it's just a way of finding the things that you can, you can go without finding the things that don't have to be there and leaving the best possible version of your book on the page.
Speaker 3 00:22:33 But you save all that stuff in your, what do you call it, your deleted file, your trash file or something like that. You save everything. It sounds like
Speaker 4 00:22:42 I do. I, I think, well, I keep a cut file and I, I call different things from different books. Uh, but I think, um, well, two things, one is like, sometimes there's good stuff that gets cut and you can find another place in the book for, you can use it somewhere else. Uh, but I think part of it is just a confidence trip because over here in the cut file, I don't worry that I've deleted something that's really great, right. Like, I, I, I can have it back if I want it back. I very, very rarely take stuff out of the cut file. Um, but I think it gives me, uh, a license to sort of be ruthless with myself because I know it's not really gone if I need it. Um, I do lay in the, in the draft, look through the cut file and see like, is there anything I still love here? I feel sort of affectionate toward, can I find a home for it, but a lot of it, uh, goes and, and that's okay. I, I think that's, um, just part of the process
Speaker 3 00:23:32 We are running out of time. I can't believe it. I have so many more questions. I, uh, uh, well, I love the book. I'm a writer myself, if my me, so, so I love the book.
Speaker 4 00:23:41 Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:23:42 Thank it. Um, what do you say for draft three kind of briefly cuz we're running outta time.
Speaker 4 00:23:48 Yeah. You know, I think draft three for me is really about, uh, the turn from the writer based version of the book to the reader based version. You just want the, the reader to have the best experience they can. And I, I think there's an interesting sort of letting go in that, you know, as it sort of becomes for other people, instead of for you, the very last thing I suggest people do with their draft the last, last moment before they send it to readers or their agents or editors, whatever you're gonna do with the book and you're done with it is to read it aloud, cover to cover yourself, um, which might take a couple days. It usually takes a couple days for me. And the reason for that is you'll find a couple things you can edit. You'll find a couple things you could change.
Speaker 4 00:24:28 But at the, at the end of the process, you've been so enmeshed in this book for so long, it's spent long time since you've seen the whole thing or you've experienced the whole thing. And it's hard to read on the page anymore. You're like skimming it by that point often. And by reading it aloud, you get this kind of embodied version of your book and you get to like, feel the thing you've made. You get to have like the best version of it you made before you gave it to other people. And it feels like a gift that the novelist sort of owes themselves as they're finishing the, the process. Actually, I always find it like very moving to sort of have that experience like, you know, the couple days before I send it to my agent. Um, and I really hope people do that or something like it for themselves so that you can really feel, um, this incredible achievement that writing a novel is no matter what happens within the world to write a novel is, is, is an incredible, incredible act. Um, and so that's one of the ways you get to feel it before you pass it on to other people.
Speaker 3 00:25:19 That's the joy of it? I think the, yeah, reading out loud is really pretty wonderful. I think, um, mm-hmm, <affirmative>, we've been speaking with Matt bell author of refused to be done, how to write and Revis a novel in three drafts. Uh, we didn't talk much about your personal novels. Uh, what's coming up next for you.
Speaker 4 00:25:40 Uh, the paperback of my novel apple seed will be out, uh, July 5th, I believe so, uh, month or so away. Um, and then I'm working on the next novel after that. So hopefully I'll be able to follow my own advice and bring it to a good end.
Speaker 3 00:25:55 Matt, thank you so much for coming on right on radio tonight and telling us about your book refused to be done. Uh, we, uh, enjoyed it very much and all I can say to you is right on <laugh>.
Speaker 4 00:26:09 Thanks so much, Liz.
Speaker 3 00:26:11 Thank you, Matt Liz,
Speaker 5 00:26:13 With the, for the win
Speaker 2 00:26:29 You are listening to right on radio on K F a I 90.3 FM and streaming live on the
[email protected]. I'm Annie Harvey. I'd like to thank all of you listening at home for your patience. As we experience the technical difficulty in the first half of the show, we were able to get it resolved and we appreciate your patience. And we'd also like to thank Matt bell, um, for all of his wonderful insights about writing and living a writing life. Um, thanks also to all of you listeners who provide support, whether it's sharing donations, et cetera, K F a I would not be possible without you. You can find more news and info about ride and radio at K F i.org/write on radio. You can also listen on, uh, to your favorite write on radio episodes on whatever your favorite podcast app is, whether that's Spotify, iTunes, Google, or apple.
