Speaker 1 00:00:28 You are listening to a right on radio podcast, exclusive with Annie Harvey. Let's dig in
Speaker 1 00:00:50 Tommy Tava. Welcome to
Speaker 2 00:00:53 Thank you. Thank you. I'm so delighted. You have no idea, but I used to go to school at university of Minnesota. I had friends who worked at care, so this is very exciting for them.
Speaker 1 00:01:04 I L I love to hear that a full circle story, everyone. This is AMI Tava, Kumar, uh, the author of a time outside this time, and many other novels. Um, here's a Minneapolis reunion for him, I guess, by zoom.
Speaker 2 00:01:20 Yes. Yes, very much. So, could
Speaker 1 00:01:22 You start by kind of describing a time outside this time for those who perhaps haven't had a chance to read it yet?
Speaker 2 00:01:29 Yes. Uh, there is, uh, our narrator is a writer he's on an island in, uh, Italy on a cushy fellowship, and he wants to write about the news. In fact, he wants to write about fake news and, uh, he starts doing, uh, work, but then the news of the pandemic arrives and along with a pandemic, of course, there's also the sense that there is an infographic that the da who has declared an info DEMEC, uh, kind of an epidemic or pandemic of false information. So, uh, the book really is an investigation into truth. It's also a meditation on what to do, what should fiction do when we are surrounded by that fiction called fake news. Does that sound a fair summary?
Speaker 1 00:02:26 Yes. I think that was an excellent way to kind of cohere the primary themes and something that I want to ask about just immediately jumping off that is, this book belongs to a tradition of works in which the narrator is not the author, but share certain qualities with the author, shares a name with the author, share certain occupational or circumstantial details with the author. Um, which I thought was a fun, little play for a book that is about misinformation or false information. How did you choose the sort of distance? Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:03:02 Yeah, yeah. That's a good question. I, you know, I would think that because I, I am missing with this idea of whether it is me or not me, because there are so many references to the real world events, things happening in real time. It seems I just wanted to keep my reader alert and maybe even a little bit skeptical to think, let we check this in fact at one place, I think I have managed to have my narrator say, why don't you Google this, you know, to the reader. So it's, it's, it's a desire to promote a certain type of skepticism. Yeah. Because I want, I think that is the alertness we want in our citizenry today. We don't want to quickly accept you don't want to be the gullible, uh, consumers of news. You want actually to be a critical consumer of news, which is, uh, the role of AI.
Speaker 2 00:04:03 I think so, so, so, so, so I chose in some ways, you know, well, let me put it this way. Luckily, a novel book, COVID he, uh, his, his, his memoir called speak memory. Parts of it were published in the new Yorker's fiction, but it was a memoir. And then it was published as a book, as a memoir. So he was messing with people's expectations. And I don't know what his context was, but in my case at the current moment, this was not such a coy CLI it was more about just promoting a certain alertness in the reader thinking, is this also true? Well, let me check it out. You know, that sort of thing.
Speaker 1 00:04:48 Yeah. Yeah. That's so interesting with the <inaudible>. I love the book speak memory. I think it's absolutely excellent. And the idea that Novaka as an author who plays with perspective so much, like so many of his books, like Lolita and Sebastian Knight and stuff really do the old meritorious twist where you're given someone's perspective. And then towards the end of the book, it just flips on its head and you see that the person is actually quite scary or quite biased or something like that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:05:20 In fact, because you seem to know his work so, well, I just want to very quickly confess them before you accused me that I stole something from him. There is something there's a little section where he's sort of says for someone who thinks for you for that reader, who thinks that I, um, I'm sorry for the rubles I lost, or sometimes I didn't know, because his property was taken over by the revolutionaries. He says, uh, you know, he, he, he can tell his showers that kind of redirect content. And he says, but, and then he has a little riff and then he says, and now the reader may go on or something like that. And so borrowing from him, uh, bordering around with, you know, just stealing from him. I said, I have said somewhere in my book that, um, you know, the reader might wish to skip the next chapter because of what I've done is just once this fall, all kinds of new started flooding in during the pandemic on top of that, we just have a chapter about the news, just listed down some things it's called the velocity of lies. So I said in another COVID gesture, I said, uh, for those interested only in the story, I say slightly contemptuously for those interested, only in the story, please skip this part. But for those other more sophisticated readers, like Annie, please read this chapter, you know? So, yeah.
Speaker 1 00:06:49 And you even referenced in the book that kind of the dichotomy between an kind of an Ezra pound style thinker of literature about, um, literature is entirely separate from the news. Um, literature is its own thing versus kind of the sort of thing you're doing with this project to kind of more immersive, the skills that you use to unpack and create and process good literature can also be useful in terms of news and unpacking skills in the world.
Speaker 2 00:07:22 Yes. Part of it came from just understanding how the word novel from the Latin novellas applies to news, whatever is new, it applies to use and also to the novel. And of course, then we have the phenomenon of the novel coronavirus, right? So I was thinking also, of course, I had read a study, which said that humans spread lies six times faster than true news on social media. So I was interested in, and when I wrote to the researchers, they were from MIT, why is this? So they said probably because, you know, their, their understanding was that bots, their research had shown that box spread fake news, true news, both, but the spread bots spread it at the same rate. Humans spread fake news six times faster than what is just played through news. So I asked them why. And the guy wrote back to say, because fake news is novel. And I was like, WTF, I am writing a novel.
Speaker 2 00:08:42 This is much better than what someone it's fake news, but, you know, so it becomes a little bit of a meditation. When some people like pound we're thinking probably of something is real literature that stays eternal. I was interested in what is it in the present moment that makes one kind of fiction so appealing to people and by fiction, I mean, fake news, so appealing to people or to certain subset of people and what must this other fiction called literary fiction do in order to also engage people's attention. And I'm not entirely sure about my answer, but I think I'm trying to say that you have to slow jam that news.
Speaker 1 00:09:31 Yeah. While we're on that topic, can you just describe, I love the phrase, slow, jamming the news and how it repeated in this book, but can you describe slow jamming the news a little?
Speaker 2 00:09:42 Well, again, I'm sorry that you have brought out all my confessional streak here. That's another thing they stole. I still that from Jimmy salad. Oh my God.
Speaker 1 00:09:58 What if I brought you here to docs
Speaker 2 00:10:00 You? I know my God has to do something. I, you know, I think, I think you have introduced me. I think this is easy for me to do this because of the whole Minnesota connection. It's like returning to my youth, all the mistakes, remembering with guilt, all my misdemeanors. Um, so Jimmy Fallon, you know, he, I don't know whether you ever watched, you must watch a video, for example, of Jimmy Fallon slow jamming the news with Obama or Bernie Sanders thing. What does he do? It just orders. It is both news and something current and commenting on it. But also there is music and somehow it becomes sexy. You know what I'm saying? Or at least fun. Yeah. So what I was thinking though, was in a slightly Gandhian way, you know, when God, he went to South Africa, he decided to bring other the paper and he would, and I have put this somewhere in the book, but it was, he, he decided that there should be little quotations from Touro or story, and he wanted to slow instead of people reading the news quickly.
Speaker 2 00:11:14 And, uh, not even absorbing something that was how the world worked. He wanted to slow it down. We wanted more reflection of meditativeness. Yes. I, you know, I'm not entirely gone hand. I wanted my own little speed, but I, I thought, why not just take something from the news? A man has been lynched in India on the suspicion of eating beef and this barbaric act a photo of this lynching, which everyone is familiar with. What if I painted it and I would slow it down and simplified it, remove some things from the picture. And I thought, anyone in India, for example, familiar with that iconic picture, coming to my painting, which I've put in a book by the way, would absorb it in a slower way. And that's what I'm building with the story itself of the news. I'm slowing it down. And that's what I mean by slow jamming doesn't mean yeah.
Speaker 1 00:12:17 On the topic of kind of slowing down and unpacking the news a little more. A lot of what I love about this books participation in larger social conversations is that it picks apart what, I guess you could call truisms that are going around right now, such as like belief science, things. That's things that feel right. And when you immediately hear them, they feel right. But then when you think about it, it's like, okay, but in what circumstances is there a limit to that? And there's a little, little bite on page 15 that I'm just going to read to kind of bring us into the context before we talk about it a little more is science the answer, not if scientists don't recognize that they too are telling us a story, trying to find their truth by setting up situations and in the topic of that in the topic of the fact that, um, science too is trying to tell us a story or trying to, to like rich from one idea to the other. Could you tell us how you chose kind of facts, examples, pieces of science for the book, because like you and I both know that you could, for example, give a very limited trial of something to people or like hydroxychloroquine or ivermectin or something. And it could, it could work in a, in a tiny fraction of the time. And if you present that really quickly, it could be like, oh, great. Believe science, this works and you know, might be trash.
Speaker 2 00:13:41 Yes, I need, you know, you're so right, because let's think about phrenology because the signs that told people in this country that you can measure the size of the skull of people and thereby conclude that African-Americans are inferior to white people, right. Yeah. Is also always ideological. Yeah. It's based in the world and share six prejudices. In my case, it was not so much simply the prejudice. I wanted to point out of science because of course I'm for science. Like you are, I suppose, you know, um, everyone with a brain. But I was more thinking about how to emphasize the fact that these are also stories that people tell or that science stills. And that's why, what I did was I just, over the years that I was writing this, I would just take down notes of experiments that I would come across and think, whoa, that's neat.
Speaker 2 00:14:47 The narrator Satya is a little bit skeptical of that because he thinks those stories are a bit, excuse me, are a bit too neat. He's interested in more complicated narratives. So more individual narratives or more idiosyncratic narratives. Um, so I have set up in the structure of the book. There's a, the foil to mine, the rater is his wife. Who's a behavioral psychologist. So from her, we learned things like the reason why Celine Dion is played on loop in Walmart is because if you're sad and you're made sad by the sad song, if you're sad, you want to cure your sadness by buying things. And therefore that's the science behind it. And that's when I read about that, I thought that was very interesting. And I stole that too. So just to provide another item on the roster as my pilfering,
Speaker 1 00:15:43 But the little target that's in dinky town right now, it's always playing like Donna summer, what are they trying to get us to do? And they,
Speaker 2 00:15:52 Yes. Yes. You tell me. Yes. Yes. But what do you want these little stories, for example, I've used the Stanley Milgram experiment. I, during his trial said that he was only following Hitler scholars. So a researcher Meldrum Yale immediately things, but what extent will people follow orders if someone in authority gives? And so it has people inflict pain on others, but he has this person in a coat in a white coat saying, go on. You must go on. And so how to keep just doing that is in my opinion, excellent science to investigate under varying conditions walk up to, and in some ways, therefore it is some practical with my own narrator's instincts to go out into the world and see what people do in certain settings. Yes. But the truth is he finds that a bit more individuals, less generalizable, less universal. And I think that is the gift of literature. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:17:01 To dig into that a little more in a specific circumstance, um, your narrator, um, has kind of a battle with subjectivity objectivity, um, when he's been spending time with Farrukh and <inaudible> who, again, for those who either haven't picked up the book yet, or only part way through, um, he is also an immigrant to the U S just like our near first person narrator. Um, but he has a very different class in migration story than their writers. He got in some trouble, he ended up getting tapped by the FBI for some work. The narrator perceives him as being kind of used by the United States. Um, but as he spends more and more time with Faruq and talks to people for Ruth knows, he starts to not to give away too much, kind of see that not all is exactly as it seems, um, that he might be getting some sides of the story that others may disagree with. And that also that he too, might've kind of been commodifying for root situation or for root story. So could you speak a little to the role that instinct or subliminal bias play either in this particular book or, um, in your writing more generally and your narrator's writing more generally.
Speaker 2 00:18:15 Yeah. Um, the sort of twists and turns, let's put it this way. You are stopped at customs, you already confronting and an official of the state. You're already a little bit nervous. The person barks out the question to you. You'll give an answer that is actually an accurate and can be confirmed by looking at the document, this insights, the other persons, both doubt and curiosity. In fact, it incites the other person's suspicion seeing that the other person is suspicion seeing that the other person is suspicious. You become nervous and give another wrong answer. Yeah. You know where I'm going, I'm going with this. The other person is the person in polity is predisposed to suspect you. And you put in a position of power that is vulnerable stumble, make mistakes. Yeah. I'm very interested in that. I'm very interested in that encounter, which is marked or tainted by power and which he leads to mistakes on one side of assumption of presumption of guilt.
Speaker 2 00:19:49 And on the other side of just innocent stumbling into mistake and often that, and lead in certain situations to tragedy, someone is being interrogated. Someone is stopped at a light. A person happens to be black. The officer is white. The person thinks this person is threatening. The officer takes out a gun. It happened in Minneapolis, a black man simply says, officer, I just want to say I have a gun. He has barely finished the sentence when he's shot dead. The case of Philando Castille. So, um, I'm interested in how, uh, implicit biases shaped stories lead to results that neither party could have foreseen. Maybe that's the tragedy. And sometimes, and only sometimes the comedy of human life. Um, in that particular chapter that we we're talking about, then a student who has been a student from the sub-continent from Pakistan, who has been enlisted by the SPI in the war on terror.
Speaker 2 00:21:00 And I had, you know, I wrote a book called a foreigner carrying in the crook of his arm, a tiny bomb. And that was written out of my experience of attending terrorism trials involving people of might interpret suasion. And, um, it was very interesting to see how people have been entrapped because of petty crimes, but because the water terror was going on those petty crimes ballooned into such weight on these people's minds, that they were, they easily became collaborators of the state and try to end trap other innocent people. So for example, someone who had committed credit card fraud would be enlisted as an informant would go to mosques. And by two young talk to young men and said things that were very, very insightful and involve them in conspiracies. This was detailed. And, um, I'm trying in that book to really say in that chapter to really say that the state, the state, the powerful state is a producer of bad fiction. And we as ordinary citizens have to produce our own protective little frictions to guard against what always threatens to overwhelm us in a moment of bad judgment. So that's my report. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:22:26 It's also interesting to see how the state's norm or idea of what someone should perceive as important or how someone should set up their life often doesn't match that of the actual person. My significant other works in de deportation defense here in Minnesota. And there are situations where, um, they're trying to prove that evidence is real to the state when something doesn't seem right to them, but it's actually, it's, someone's real life. It's very interesting to see someone's real life be perceived as fiction by someone whose real life looks very different than that person's life
Speaker 2 00:23:03 That's. That's very well put that's exactly. Yes.
Speaker 1 00:23:07 Yeah. To continue kind of on the topic of, um, narrative and fiction created by the state versus fiction created by individuals. Um, so there is a point where the narrator is, um, overseas writing. He is, um, kind of using the good faith of a friend from when he was young, who, who he uses to get into some situations and ask some questions. Any kind of has a moment where he's like, oh, am I, am I betraying this friend's trust? But also I need to tell the story. And I don't quite feel right about what my former friend is doing. And there are several other positions in the book in which the narrator mentions tactics of interviewing or different ways to interview. Um, could you describe to us the, uh, kinds of nuance or sort of different interview styles in the interview process of this book and how you chose what to include and how to describe it?
Speaker 2 00:24:08 Yes. Yes. Um, there's a, there's a line called <inaudible> the Irish writer who teaches at Columbia, which is that he says that you have to be a monster to write when students, um, express some ethical compunction about using in one of their stories, a story that a friend has told them, yeah. Come to me and says to be a monster, right? If you do not want to use this story, then I'll be happy to write you a letter of recommendation. You can go to law school, don't become a writer. Okay. That's a hard line, you know, but, uh, that's the truth, which is that as Janet Malcolm in her opening line, in that book, the journalist and the murderer, uh, declares, um, any journalist who, you know, I'm paraphrasing, but any journalist who thinks that they are not betraying the trust of the interviewee or is deluding themselves. That's what she says. In other words, it's always, you're getting, I wanted to what I'm trying to do in those sections that you just cited is say that I shared an ambivalence and would be honest with me to express this. I shared an ambivalence about the act of writing when you're reporting on other people's stories. This should be foreground.
Speaker 1 00:25:44 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:25:46 And so when, what, even the strategy of an interview is, or the ambiguous situation that when it's caught in or how you're exploiting a certain contact you had in order to get somewhere that shouldn't be exposed as a part of the machinery of your production. Yeah. I even make a point in this and other books when I try to put in clippings, I have, you know, kept it from my notebook or in this case, tweets of Donald Trump appear in this novel or clippings are taken from the New York times. I pasted it there because I want to tell my reader, dear reader, this is how the book came to be. Yeah, it's not, there's a material process through which this book was created. Yes. It is not some sort of a magical thing. And it goes, not someone just sitting in the quiet of the room, receiving divine inspiration, uh, lost that did not happen. I struggled with real things from my notebook. This is how it was made. This was the historical moment in which he was engaged. So that expression of ambiguity, but also pure materiality through which this book came to be, should be a part of the quote unquote education of the reader and the writer. And that's what,
Speaker 1 00:27:05 Yeah. Yeah. Um, for the setting and larger context of the book, I appreciate that you brought up the notebook because that's something that I really enjoyed in this book, the way you could see the author narrator kind of, um, dissecting what ideas he finds salient and important, writing them down, kind of looking over things, kind of keeping a more casual notebook rather than perpetuating a fiction that, um, writers just kind of poof make a great first draft and that it's done. And it was interesting to see. And you mentioned this at the beginning, the author is working on his book at what is described as the cushy fellowship. And they're literally on a beautiful island. And, um, he's like, I'm, I'm being fed nice food. Like I'm like a child or something like that. And, um, he's in this situation where there's this pandemic and this racial justice movement and racial reckoning occurring. And it feels both like the narrator is engaging with the world and piece includes together. But also that he's like so separate, he's like again, literally on a beautiful island. Um, what do you think about how that dissonance creates, uh, contributes or creates to the specific story that the new writer ends up telling that kind of dissonance?
Speaker 2 00:28:30 Yeah. Um, well, you know, first of all, let me acknowledge that I was on this, in this beautiful place called Bellagio on lake Como in Italy. So I was literally there and I was beginning to write this book and I was contending with the rise of Trumpism. I was thinking about how is it best to respond to it? And I also felt a little distant because I thought my God uniformed servers are giving me the best food. I could imagine things that did not. And I would, there would be the cocktail hour every afternoon, where you even when I just descended from the stairs, the waiter would already have an Aperol ready for me. So I am enjoying the highlight and I can, I can see George Clooney's realized the distance across the stretch of water. And I'm thinking, you know, this, I'm writing about all of these terrible things, but here I am in the lap of luxury, that was in a very real way. Those are dissonance.
Speaker 2 00:29:44 But, you know, as we realized during the pandemic, uh, luxury, the walls of luxury do not protect you from the pandemic, you know, uh, uh, and, um, in the same way, as one must realize that being in the first world will not protect you from the effects of climate change that we are in all that we are all in this together. And that globalization is a certain destiny and that civilized and the world civilization has to confront world problems. So at once the idea of dissonance and then the idea of walls, dissolve of crises, gathering on a world scale and developing everyone that two was a part of that is those were the two pensions I was working through throughout so that the pandemic arrives and the residency is closed and he has to come back home and he comes home, but he can't find the, we culture happened with me. I can't find there's no chicken, even, there's no TOEFL for God's sake in the grocery store, no toilet paper, you know, in the midst of the pandemic, a man in Minneapolis is killed by the police in a particularly brutal way. And a movement arises despite the pandemic. And I wanted to register all of that in the story. Yeah. So that's what it is.
Speaker 1 00:31:22 Yeah. I really appreciated the, it felt very visceral, a lot of the world events that were going on, like, it felt very much like you had recorded things in the moment and then returned to them later. Like, I feel like now there are a lot more kind of flat or retrospective takes on Trump and COVID more broadly, but the way that you nail the uncertainty and kind of churning inconsistency, um, an example that was particularly funny to me was like the flight where the flight attendants are masked and they're like speaking loudly over everyone else. And now we know just like spewing particulate, but all of the passengers are things like that. It's just this whole experience of the past two years has felt very like who is setting the rules. Like it's a weird guessing game of like what you're supposed to be doing. And I thought that it was really interesting to see a depiction that is so detailed. And so visceral of like all of those events congeal.
Speaker 2 00:32:22 Yeah. I appreciate that. Because when you said the thing about the flat tape ha you know, what perspective, what happens is that when we were going through it, everything was so uncertain. We didn't have the right information. We were wondering, and I wanted to capture that so that the movie, any novel moves across time and moves across space often suddenly moves across time, time passing is the essential story of a novel. And I, through using my own journals and records, I wanted to preserve that sense of what was known at that time, what was not known, what was the confusion of the times, what was not, and therefore language and literature becomes a way of both remembering what is easily forgotten by the next day or the day after becomes a way of remembering. And it also becomes a way of bringing order into chaos. That is the essential work for good or bad of narrative. Additive reduces something that is confusing. Okay. Optic into some sort of it, it lays it down on the line. And I was trying to do that with my narrator, trying to make sense of what will happen.
Speaker 1 00:33:40 Yeah. And seeing it in retrospect is nice to have it kind of made concise, laid down in a line when a lot of it felt very surreal, like living in Minneapolis last year, it was like, I would be laying in my bed at night and it would be hard to sleep because there would be helicopters everywhere, or like I would go to the grocery store and there would be like someone with a machine gun outside, all the, like, what is, and like, I personally was very safe because I am, you can see me where, uh, for those listening, we're recording this on zoom. I'm very white. So like, I was not necessarily the target of things. And I had a lot of freedom in what I could say, the opinions I could express the places I could go. But there was an element of surreality to like living in a, a greater, like a heightened degree of surveillance, a heightened degree of militarization where like, sometimes I'll remember it like that was real, or like at the beginning of the pandemic, when we had no idea how it's spread and people were like putting their mail in the oven or things like that, protect your families.
Speaker 1 00:34:43 And I think that the book captured that kind of chaotic element in a great amount of, uh, detail, reality lived in this. Um, there's one more thing I want to talk about before we wrap up here. I know a lot of the writing that the narrator is talking about in the book, um, overlaps with actual writing you've done in your career. Um, but the narrator throughout the book references, working on a book called enemies of the people I went on, my little good reads app and my little Google, I was not finding enemies of the people. So could you tell me what, how you picked your enemies of the people? What do you think it's like?
Speaker 2 00:35:22 Yes. Very good question. You know, I heard, I think it goes a Hulu show in which Sarah Silverman was playing the role of Trump's press secretary. And she would say these were enemies of the people, journalists were enemies of the people. And I heard one of the great things that has happened in re in resistance literature or resistance movements in this country is that we take the oppressor's word and turn it around queer, uh, et cetera. Right. So, um, I thought my narrator as a journalist would be writing a book called and that's how I was thinking. And just to have in the background figures like Sarah Silverman and fade on whom I've had a lifelong crush, inspiring music, looking over my shoulder, I was thinking, yeah, that's the way to go, man. That's, you know? Yeah. And then I don't know whether it is a right to have this ambition or expectation somewhere towards the end of the book. I began thinking, you know, what the pandemic comes and this guy stops talking about enemies of the people, but hasn't, this book really become that book that he wanted to write. So, so, uh, so you know, Annie, you have to be a sweet and generous person and say, yes, it does. I mean, you can now go with a bold confidence that the work has really happened, but that's what it later occurred to me that maybe this book becomes textbook. I don't know.
Speaker 1 00:37:06 Yeah. I kind of would wonder that too. Cause it, it feels very much, you were describing like enemies of the people as a way of reclaiming kind of reclaiming a negatively connotated thing and taking it to be a symbol of power or something to intrigue people that participate in journalism. And I definitely feel like that's something that this book does. I think this book engages with the problems of contemporary storytelling, contemporary journalism, trying to make narratives, they're trying to make valid conversations out of the chaos of news and really pulls it together.
Speaker 2 00:37:47 That's right. I mean, thank you. But you know, Trump was asked by a NEC or NBC reporter, something about, what will you say? What do you want to say to the people Mr. President, you are very much, uh, panicked right now. This was in the beginning of the tour of this book. And Trump said, I think that's a nasty question. And I thought, okay, let my book then be proof that someone inspired by a journalistic pursuit of truth is interested in not being an enemy of the people is actually doing something that is for the general. Good is exploring difficult truths, not easy truth, not even a desire to be right, as much as our desire, to be honest and therefore implicating himself sometimes in what seems dangerous or compromise, but that, and therefore the expression of betrayal of truth that you had earlier when asking about. And so that is what I was doing over and over in every chap. And before I hope that this becomes a sort of rewriting of the Trumpian, uh, condemnation of generalists and becomes instead a little manifesto for the pursuit of truth, you know? Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:39:07 Yeah. Well, I think that, um, I could talk to you for so much longer, but I think that's actually a really good place to wrap up for those who joined part way. This has been AMI Tava Kumar talking about a time outside this time. You've been listening to cafe I 90.3 FM and on the
[email protected]. I mean, Tava, thank you so much. This has been such a fun conversation. I feel so lucky to have had you here.
Speaker 2 00:39:31 Thank you. Just such a pleasure. I'm truly honored and such a delight to be back in Minnesota in this small way.
