Speaker 1 00:00:42 You are listening to right on radio on cafe 90.3 FM and streaming live on the web at <inaudible> dot org. I'm Annie Harvey. Tonight on, right on radio. Dave talks with Jim Moore, the author of prognosis, a collection of poems written in Minneapolis during the pandemics masked and distance loneliness after the police murder of George Floyd and what an empire falls more than just meditations on dark times. These pumps turn toward the living woman as a surprising source of abundance,
Speaker 2 00:01:10 Dave Fettig and the last hour of the show, Josh chats with Cleco about Lincoln land, a diary, chronicling America's fray. Favorite bread baker. I had trouble with that because it's hard to believe America's favorite bread baker in his quest to make contact with the ghost of Lincoln, all this and more. So stay tuned to write on radio. And now this
Speaker 2 00:01:43 Hello, everyone. I'm Dave and you're listening to right on radio and we are very pleased to have Jim Moore in the studio with us. Good evening, Jim. Good to have you glad to be here. Welcome. I know this. Isn't your first trip here. You've been here before.
Speaker 3 00:01:55 I have been here before. Been a little while,
Speaker 2 00:01:56 But yeah. Good. Well, welcome back. And we're going to have you again, I'm sure this is your eighth collection of poetry. We are delighted to, uh, talk about it in a bit, but for starters, Jim, why don't you tell us about your relationship with poetry? You've been writing for some time, but, uh, I like to ask people how does one become a poet?
Speaker 3 00:02:13 Well, a very good question as to which there are as many answers as there are. Pullets okay for me, I began rather late lots of boats start when they're quite young, but I was really in college. I was going to an experience here, in fact, a Carleton college, where I had fallen in love with my, uh, my roommate's girlfriend. And I kind of freaked out. I was a junior in college and I left and went down to Oklahoma and had a whole series of adventures. But that was the point at which I went into a bookstore that year. And it was a long time ago now. And there was a, a little slim book by a poet I'd never heard of named Kenneth Rexroth. And this guy had gone through what I was going through on only he did it in a really adult way.
Speaker 3 00:03:00 He did, you know, he, uh, he kind of, he was able to write about what he went through and think about, I think a true and I w I was riveted. I remember sitting on the floor of that bookstore, reading that book, and then buying that book. Um, before that, uh, many years before that, when I was a kid, my grandmother wrote a novel and that was a big event in my life. I thought this is a good life. She gets to be alone all day for quite a long while years. In fact, she comes down. There's a big party in our little town in Decatur, Illinois. The book sold quite well was on the New York times best seller list. Then you go back up to your study and start writing again. I stopped. This was an ideal
Speaker 2 00:03:42 Life.
Speaker 3 00:03:44 Those are my two, two stories about, uh, about becoming a writer.
Speaker 2 00:03:48 Well, good for you. And, uh, again, this is your eighth collection, congratulations. And you're with gray Wolf. One of our favorite publishers, a local publisher, of course. Yep. We love our local publishers. So our gym, we like to start at the top. If you could, with a poem, with a reading and give our listeners a sense for what we're getting into here. So what are you gonna read?
Speaker 3 00:04:06 Well, why don't I read the very first poem, the book, which was the last poem I wrote. Okay. So I went in last, that's called look again, right? And it's for chance. Erolin my editor and Marie, how a fellow poet and friend, and they both helped me edit this poem. So it became the poem. It should have been a look again, let me just preface it by saying, uh, as you mentioned in the intro, uh, this book came out of w everything we've all been through these last few years, pandemic George Floyd, Trump, the whole deal, right? So this poem is written, I can't say after that, because the pandemic's still going on, but just Palm is, is the most recent response I had to these events. And most especially, I was thinking of George Floyd, look again, right? It was just luck. Orange grows those two olive orchards, the way we sat side by side on the picnic bench, you in that white blouse, open at the throat, those goats in the pen with the two dogs who looked outnumbered, but happy in their confusion, a gun mistaken for a taser, a murder, you know, the rest, none of it is just luck too early for the swallows, but right on time for the red wing blackbirds look away, then look back.
Speaker 3 00:05:38 I can almost see it the world as it really is, but not quite.
Speaker 2 00:05:46 That's Jim Moore reading from his collection, prognosis, Jim, uh, it struck me as I'm reading this and thinking about that, these poems are, uh, two large degree about this time COVID timing and other things that were going on. And it was struck by, I know a little bit about the publishing world, and it takes a long time to get a book published. These books, these poems perhaps were written during this period and published another out. And we're still in core, still in it. Uh, it's it's rather mine, mine.
Speaker 3 00:06:13 It is my, you know, my books typically take quite a long time to write, uh, the first two books each took 10 years. And just when, uh, it took a few years, although the emphasis is on the poems that I wrote most recently, I started working on this book, uh, around 2016. So that's, you know, five years ago, but I would say the sort of momentum for it happened because of what was happening in the world. I was writing long anyway, and then what happened happened. And I started responding to that and went back to the early poems cut poems that didn't really seem to have much to do with what's happening. These days kept the ones that seemed like they did.
Speaker 2 00:06:56 Did you, this could feel like pressure to some writers it's it's pressure you put on yourself. So it probably wasn't pressure, but I'm going to write about COVID right. Uh, when you say it like that, it sounds like a, you know, a recipe for a writer's block and staring at a blank page for a few years,
Speaker 3 00:07:11 I'm sitting here smiling because actually for me, it was the opposite. I know exactly what you're saying. And I know many writers did respond that way. I heard some writers on a zoom call, not long ago saying I just stopped. I just started playing video games. And when all this is over, I'll start writing again. I kept that. Of course, for me, it felt like, you know, now is the time to do, try to do what poetry can do. I mean, I was just so overwhelmed as everybody was by what was going on, what is still going on? And poetry just has that unique. How often do you have a chance to write about a worldwide event that's affecting the whole world? That's a great point. And it's like, this is what poetry is supposed to do. And this is what's moved me in poems from the past, whether we're talking about Homer or Chaucer or right up to today and tomorrow. Yeah. So I felt like it wasn't a, it wasn't a burden. It was like finally now is the moment to be a poet. And I, I wrote like crazy during that period. And now not so much now, but especially during the beginning and the first year, year and a half of it,
Speaker 2 00:08:23 Did they isolation move you
Speaker 3 00:08:25 To write more? Yes. Well, the isolation for me and for, I suspect a lot of writers and probably a lot of people who aren't writers who are basically a solitary and introverts by nature was not that part of it was not so bad. If, you know, if you weren't, if you didn't have two kids at home that you were trying to take care of and in a big job and all that kind of stuff, but at my age, uh, 78, you know, I, uh, it gave me an excuse to do what I really want to do, which is sit home, look out the read, great poems by other people and try it. Right. Pomace myself. I mean, what could be better?
Speaker 2 00:08:59 Yeah. Yeah. So I'm going to, I'm going to do a mini close reading of one of these poems, cheese, almonds, eggs. And this is the beauty of poetry. So we're talking about writing poems about COVID and if you said that to someone, they might think, oh my God, someone's going to talk about masking and this and all the obvious stuff. Right. But here's a poem called cheese, almonds, and eggs that has phrases in it. Like maybe it was the virus, maybe a heart attack, no one will ever know if they have them. I can't think that doesn't know what to do. I am trying, I know no other way to rest phrases like that. Which for me, that's not the whole point,
Speaker 3 00:09:36 But maybe should've been, I really liked the sound. Those are,
Speaker 2 00:09:39 I picked up the key one English major in me, but I picked those phrases up because for me, they really describe the F the, a existed, the experience of being in, COVID not knowing what happened, what's happening. Why is this person sick? Is this killing this person? How do I respond? What I do? Um, I think it's rather brilliant poem about COVID as much as it's even not about COVID it's about going out and getting cheese, almonds aged, by the way I love. But, um, so well done. Thank you.
Speaker 3 00:10:12 And thank you for the poem. Should I, should I read it? Do you think let's read it? I just want you to say as an intro to underscore what you're saying, this was the first poem I wrote, and this friend of ours who died, he died in March, right at the beginning of, of the whole pandemic two marches ago. And no, we really didn't know what the heck was going. We knew something was happening
Speaker 2 00:10:34 So many questions
Speaker 3 00:10:35 Back then. It was like 50 something in terms of COVID that's very young. So, uh, so that's where this poem comes from cheese almond eggs. He'd been sick. Only five days. Our friend, it turned out later, maybe it was the virus, maybe a heart attack, an autopsy was refused to him. No one will ever know. Now he is Ash. Soon. The grocery store will open because I am old. I will go in first cheese, almonds, eggs. If they have them. I can't think any further than that yesterday, I heard the first Redwing Blackbird. We were on the bridge where they come back every year to the tall weeds, by the river, a small, invisible wind that doesn't know what to do with itself. Like a child lost somewhere near home, but too far away for him to see how to make his way back. If you tell me, try to rest, I will say, I am trying to find the words to say how it feels to be that child. I know no other way to rest.
Speaker 2 00:11:47 Thank you, Jim. That's Jim Moore reading from prognosis, his latest collection of poetry. Um, it seems
Speaker 3 00:11:53 Like Redwing blackbirds, by the way, in both pumps, I've read, but I do love them. I know I'm already looking forward to next.
Speaker 2 00:12:01 Uh, now I'm going to have to ask you because that when I hear that poem, when I read it, I think of a place that I'm familiar with along the river downtown, where Redwing blackbirds tend to hang out, which is down. And maybe just, are you writing about downtown
Speaker 3 00:12:13 Along the river or some stone arch. They come out and sit on the light pole, right? The bridge. I'm sure it's the same family and the descendants of the
Speaker 2 00:12:22 Understand. I know exactly what you're talking about. It's exactly what I thought about by the way, because I'm the one on one in particular dive bombs me routinely in the spring.
Speaker 3 00:12:31 If you wrote a poem about him, he probably wouldn't do that
Speaker 2 00:12:34 To, I don't know. You seem pretty, uh, pretty upset about something. Uh, so, um, to continue along the lines of what we just talked about, which is how to write poetically about something without writing about it, but still give us some insight, um, the pandemic halo. Yeah. Um, we can read that if you want it or sections of it, but I want to ask you the pandemic halo. Describe for us what that is for you for, for the readers, what you mean by that. And is this something that you coined Jim or is this,
Speaker 3 00:13:03 Oh yeah, you did. This is a Jim, our original
Speaker 2 00:13:07 Idea of a pandemic halos.
Speaker 3 00:13:09 No, nobody else has come up with appetizer. Cool. Page number this first, by the way, this is the first occasion I've had to do something public with this book. So
Speaker 2 00:13:19 Thank you. We are something here, man. You're welcome January. <inaudible> it's my, I have a proof copy. It's my page 20. But, um, let's see. It's probably follows grace and received by transfiguration. Well, while he's shuffling and
Speaker 3 00:13:41 Feels a little
Speaker 2 00:13:44 Turned around, I'm going hand you my book. See, that's the way it works. Good. We're a community radio station folks we share.
Speaker 3 00:13:51 Yeah. So the pandemic hail, you know, I wish I could remember where that, where the idea came from, but I love it. What I did during this period was I sat at my window in my study and I looked out and what I looked out into was the parking lot across the street and folks, very few folks, but some folks out walking their dogs, few construction workers going to work again. This was very early in, in the pandemic. And I don't know where I got the idea, except I'm really interested in Renaissance art. I love those pictures. Yeah. That's
Speaker 2 00:14:20 In the brand. Gelical the idea
Speaker 3 00:14:22 Of these, these halos. And I think, well, why can't ordinary. People have these halos. And then I thought, you know, the halos coming from the pandemic. And then I thought, you know, we're going to need that halo after the pandemic too. Should I read it? And we
Speaker 2 00:14:36 Have time for it, or this is why we're
Speaker 3 00:14:38 Here. Okay. The pandemic table, by the way, before I read it, I'll say this. I love this story. Apparently there was some class, somewhere doing work around a pandemic and people were taking this class on this pump, came up in 50 people, read it together. Oh yeah. And apparently it was a chaotic, but wonderful. So yeah, that sounds amazing. So if you all want to join yet, no, no, don't nobody. Nobody will hear what the heck is. The pandemic halo. The pandemic halo began to appear a few weeks into it. Oddly, the first time it was surrounding the head of an old lab, he was being walked as usual at 7:00 AM. By his young owner, lots of lampposts stops there. It was faint at first, then hovering at a tilt above the silky hit. I thought maybe it was a weird trick of light. The day was bright, but the next morning it was still there.
Speaker 3 00:15:35 That same day, the nurse who wears a pink Cape and parks in the lot, across from me, almost always empty now was trotting along on our way to the clinic that is just below my window. She had it too. I don't think she noticed it at all. She was walking quickly, a little late to work. So I think that was on her mind, not holiness. The third day, a young man in a red cap with a backpack slouched past. I'd never seen him before. You could see he was seriously depressed looking down at the sidewalk, but it was there firmly in place. It was above him. Of course he couldn't see how beautiful he really was. The woman would the nasty little dog. Same thing by now. The pandemic halo is well recorded. Everyone knows about it. We almost take it for granted. What had once seemed amazing. Somehow it is related to breath when we die. It goes away after the pandemic is over. They say the halo effect will disappear. They say, we will return to life as usual. We won't need it. They say I have my doubts. I think we might need it more than ever. I think we might be saying things like, remember how amazing it was during the pandemic, how everyone had a halo, how grief and holiness were all we knew of the world and the side of a dog at a lamppost could bring us to tears.
Speaker 2 00:17:06 Jim Moore. That's beautiful. Thank you for reading that. Your charge, everyone, ladies and gentlemen is to find someone with a halo tomorrow on a tree. If you look closely enough, you will find that you will. I think you will. Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned sitting at the desk and writing poetry and I are regular listeners at Jim and they are Legion. Um, we love to talk about craft when it comes to our poets. So are you telling us that you sit at that magical desk of yours and look out the window and here come the poems. Is that how it works?
Speaker 3 00:17:38 What does pretty much not fair by the way? Very much. Wow. It's like a poet wrote once. Uh, uh, how did you put it? Um, you, yes, you need to have a lightning strike, but in order for lightening to strike, you have to go out and stand in the rain. So for me sitting at the window, just sitting there waiting some day, something happens most days, not much, uh, are too much, but some days what comes out is actually something that, that you're happy that you were able to ride.
Speaker 2 00:18:12 Yeah. You mentioned reading poems and writing poems. I know writers who, when they're writing whatever they're writing, whatever genre it is, um, or type of writing, uh, don't read that type because they don't want to be influenced by it, or they're afraid they might be somehow unduly influenced by.
Speaker 3 00:18:29 That's not the case, but you know, I want to be influenced, bring it on, bring the influence on. I want, I want to be moved. I want to be, uh, challenged, uh, overwhelmed by other people's writing. And you know, I I'm sure some poems, I definitely some poems I've written over the years have really ended up being imitations of other poets. But generally what happens is they, they touch me off. They get me going, they give me a push so that, uh, I don't have the desire to, and I don't think generally I do imitate them, but they're in my head the way people are in your head who whom you love and who you're influenced by and, and, uh, are happy to have in your life, whether they're in this case, whether they're alive or dead, doesn't matter at all. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:19:13 How about form? Uh, this is free verse. This is free call it that. And, uh, I, when I look at a Palmer for the first time, first thing I do before I read opponent, cause I look at it, look the shape of it on the page. And I respond to that. We all do. I think what's that shape telling us. And you have some poems where, um, they occur on a two page or a two page spread, commonly and words are sort of, uh, pasted up against the wall. If you will. They're just sort of thrown up against there. It looks like to me, other cases, they're more, uh, standard looking if you will. Um, what comes first for you? The poem, the words or the forum,
Speaker 3 00:19:52 You know, generally what comes first is a phrase will come into my mind or as with the pandemic halo, I'll be looking at that window and I'll just see something, somebody walking by, I'll see a person walking a dog. That's just how that Palm started and something in the visual world. And that world of images will, will strike me and will get me going. I mean, I have written informed in my life, but I'm not very good at it. I remember when I was a student, uh, my I, my teacher was wrote formal verse. So I thought, well, I should write formal verse. You know, it was in my twenties. And so I did, I sat down and wrote some poems and I gave them to him. And I still remember him standing outside the building where he taught his classes, looking at me, handing the poems back and saying, well, now you've tried that.
Speaker 2 00:20:43 So,
Speaker 3 00:20:43 You know, one of the things right, is when you're at poet or probably anything at all is to figure out what you can actually do. You know? And not every, you can't do everything, nobody can do everything. So, uh, so I, for me, the poems work through, once I get that first line or two sound takes over and one sound leads to another and that's generally the path that the Palomas follow. I could trace the vowel sounds through a poem and lots of times I'll play the game of saying, okay, I'm going to do long a and every line. Oh really? Yeah. And something else I do is I do a hundred word poems. So these are generally prose poems, but they have to be 100. So that's kind of my formal form is anything you use to challenge yourself. Sure.
Speaker 2 00:21:33 By the time you're done with the fever's poem, if you look at it, it has taken shape, it has taken some sort of form. And I'm going to push you again on that question. Um, why do your poems look the way they do? Why did they take the shape? They do
Speaker 3 00:21:44 Well, you know, partly I'm just a product of my time. So I'm reading other poems that I love that have really gotten to me. There've been markers for me and those poems take certain shapes. And I suppose my poems are in some way that those shapes, uh, seep into what I do. I've learned, there's a kind of, I don't have a theory like Alan Ginsburg said each line should be as long as, uh, as a breath. Well, that's a great theory, but it doesn't, I don't have anything like that. What I have is I come to a place in the line and generally I'm going to try to surprise. I'm going to try to end the line at a place where when I begin the next line, it will be a little bit of a jolt, a little bit of a surprise, a little unexpected. And that's, that's something that I really enjoy doing. I mean, I don't try to be, uh, too, uh, eccentric about it, but you don't want anything to be too expected. And when you're writing free verse, that is a challenge. Yeah. You know, the sound is everything and the voice, uh, both of those things really matter to me.
Speaker 2 00:22:48 I do this anyway. Yeah. Much to the delight of the, the woman I live with, but I read a number of your poems out loud and, uh, that's what you need to do. She hasn't
Speaker 3 00:22:57 Left, you know? Okay.
Speaker 2 00:22:58 Yeah. We closed the door. Um, Jim, we were talking before the show about this being a good time for poetry. Uh, what do you mean by that?
Speaker 3 00:23:08 Not, I'm not the only boat who's been responding to. What's been going on in this country and in this world over the last night. And I'm not talking, just talking about the pandemic. Correct. Right. There are a tremendous number of younger poets. Uh, many of them, poets of color who are, uh, suddenly emerging. And I was just talking about one, uh, with my wife earlier tonight. Just like, it's so amazing to see this it's a little bit reminiscent of when I started writing and Vietnam war was happening, feminism was starting up again. There was a kind of an excitement about how can poetry deal with these major things? Well, this is even more now we're further down the road of racism and even further down the road of trying to bring some kind of sense of justice and the voices can be heard. So it's really a beautiful moment for poetry. It's kind of a terrible moment for the world, but it's a beautiful, and that's often the case poems often come in various cultures various times because a situation is very extreme. People want poems, people need to write them. So in that sense, it's a good time for poetry.
Speaker 2 00:24:14 Um, ordinary now do a three minute warning here. I can't believe
Speaker 3 00:24:17 This. I saw those fingers wriggling
Speaker 2 00:24:19 Over there and I didn't like
Speaker 3 00:24:21 That. I don't like that.
Speaker 2 00:24:22 Yeah. Um, uh, and, and I want to keep talking, but we can't, but push you a little bit more on that one. You've been, you have the gift of time. You've seen poetry develop. You've seen this country develop over the last decades and, uh, poultry's place in that. Um, we can talk more about that, but, uh, poetry helps poetry does what w w why do we need it? Well, um,
Speaker 3 00:24:42 It's so easy for me to answer that question for myself and I about, you know, it's like, we're all, all the time looking for a way to make sense of the world. Especially during times there's as confused as chaotic as contradictory SRS. How do you do that? Well, painters do it one way. You know, therapists will work with clients another way. The poetry loves to take things that don't seem to belong together, cheese, almonds, eggs, and the pandemic, and put them together beautifully said. And I love that about poetry.
Speaker 2 00:25:11 Yeah. Yeah. Um, before we do run out of time and we'll keep talking here, but, uh, what, what are you working on next? Uh, yeah. And you are, I'm sure. Another question. Do you have some vision in mind
Speaker 3 00:25:22 I'm working on, um, there's a kind of a prose book I've been endlessly working on, uh, uh, and I'm sort of, I'm working on that. It's a kind of memoir, but, uh, I've also been writing poems and, uh, I did kind of pause for awhile when, when the book was put to bed as it were, when it was finished. But now I I'm back into it again.
Speaker 2 00:25:42 I have an idea for a novel for you. Horrible prose, a young man is in college and he falls in love with his, his friends girl. And then he runs off to Oklahoma. I mean, what could be better? I'm
Speaker 3 00:25:54 Serious. She'd go on Netflix.
Speaker 2 00:25:57 That's a, that's a six part or at least, um, boy, what else? Uh, Minneapolis is big, right? Uh, uh, player in, in your poetry, especially you got one minute, we're gonna wrap it up on place, Annie. Uh, come on, take us home, Jim, and tell us about, I don't know, tell us about Minneapolis. Well, because I know,
Speaker 3 00:26:17 And your cousin of George Floyd it's suddenly become a worldwide. A city of, I said to my publisher recently, we took a walk. I said, suddenly I feel more connected to Minneapolis. Now that it's a battery, I was going to use an obscenity, a batter messed up broken city. I feel closer to it now. And just when it seemed like everything was just fine, everything was good.
Speaker 2 00:26:39 That's hot. That's a great way to end this one. And you bring us closer to all of that gym with your poetry. Thank you so much for being here. Jim Moore, the collection is prognosis from gray Wolf. Look it up folks. It's really great stuff. Go ahead again.
Speaker 3 00:26:52 And one final thing go to, uh, Jim Moore, poet.com. I have some readings coming up that are all virtual and free on zoom. So,
Speaker 2 00:27:01 And more poor.com ladies and gentlemen. Thanks again, Jim pleasure. Oh,
Speaker 3 00:27:05 Thank you. I really appreciate it. And
Speaker 2 00:27:07 Now this
Speaker 1 00:27:47 Next week on, right on radio. Liz will interview Jamie Schumacher about her book, butterflies and tall bicycles in history of the west bank of Minneapolis.
Speaker 4 00:27:56 And Andy, we'll be talking with CA <inaudible> Wilberg. I wonder if it was a typo and it was Krista anyway, about her graphic novel draw strength. Trogger focusing on physical self-care for illustrators, and we have some exciting news. We are going to start doing bonus podcasts, and, uh, they're going to be podcasts that haven't been broadcast on the air and can be longer than the 27 minutes. And, and it's a wonderful thing. So why don't Annie, you tell us, since you did the first two, uh, what we're doing. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:28:33 So, um, I really love being on this team because of the conversations that I get to have with authors. And I find myself often wanting to have a larger length of conversation than we can have limited by the time that's physically on air here. Um, or additionally, if we're in a busy time period, if we're in a time period where there are a lot of books coming out, sometimes it's hard to find space for everything. So we decided as a group to start creating bonus content, which you can find, um, on our podcast platform either go to cafe.org or search cafe. I right on radio that's w R I T E on radio on Spotify. Um, I have launched two already in the past week. Um, first I interview Marie Naomi. We start by talking about her collection of, uh, auto bio comics Dragon's breath, but the conversation goes way outside it, uh, we talk about the role and the hazards of self-deprecation and art, the myth of art as a healing process, the value of feedback.
Speaker 1 00:29:33 We talk about flirty fruit that she's been drawing, um, and Mari Naomi's work compiling databases for POC, queer and disabled cartoonists, uh, Miami they're up to a bunch of great stuff. So, um, that's the first one. Um, I have also have one with Amitava Kumar, um, about his newest book time outside this time, which really dives into thinking about kind of our contemporary chaos in new ways from questioning the simplicity of truisms, like believe science to the wavy rules of semi-autobiographical fiction, to the inherent biases. We all carry, um, to a more thoughtful reflection on the early months of COVID-19 and slow jamming the news. So you can check all that out on, uh, Spotify.
Speaker 4 00:30:19 That sounds really exciting. Thank you to our, um, Intrepid podcast, uh, person, Annie. Thank you, Amy. This has been your what's happening calendar of literary events brought to you by the rain taxi review of books. There are many other events you can check
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Speaker 5 00:30:56 Winner of the 2020 Midwest book award Cleco is at master bread, baker writer and poet. Currently he and the Russian supermodel live in imagined catty corner from the home where F Scott Fitzgerald wrote his first novel. He enjoys Nordic authors, the rolling stones, albums, and Dora Maar paintings, his work Lincoln land Chronicles, his quest and making contact with the ghost of Lincoln. Welcome to write on radio. Cleco
Speaker 6 00:31:22 Welcome. And thanks for having me, uh, greetings and, uh, it's delightful to be here.
Speaker 5 00:31:28 So, um, you know, I actually just thought of this before we kicked off this interview, the Russian supermodel, I've heard you use this term on Facebook. I read in the book, this is the term you used for your wife. Where did that come from?
Speaker 6 00:31:42 Well, I mean, her family is, you know, she was born actually in bird island, Minnesota, but, uh, her lineage is Russian. And it's interesting because she has four siblings that all look very Nordic, but, uh, she almost looks Mongolian and, uh, she's a complete smoke show, you know? So when you're a post middle age guy and your wife's really hot, you brag about it. And at least I do.
Speaker 5 00:32:12 Okay. That's fair. So where are you now? I know you picked up Brando on Elvis and letters from Elvis at the, uh, twin cities, rain taxi book festival. Are you still reading those books right now? And how are the
Speaker 6 00:32:22 Yeah. And, uh, they're, they're delightful. It's interesting. Cause, uh, I'm actually, I read oftentimes maybe like you do, uh, numerous books. Like I have a, a book I read, uh, at night and I have a book that I read in my car before I go into the bakery. Uh, but the, the Brando and Elvis book is my at home evening book. And it's, for those of you who don't know, uh, there was a letter, uh, or a suitcase filled with letters that, uh, um, were from Brando to Elvis and Brando was apparently, uh, the Kings spiritual leader. And it is probably the most captivating books that I've read. I'm kind of mixed. I don't know if I want to believe this book is true, or if I'd be more impressive, it was a complete lie. I mean, I would like to write this book,
Speaker 5 00:33:14 This work opens with a special, thanks to George Saunders, leave anchor, Jonathan Franzen and John. I will watch a lot of your posts. I check up on your social media feed. It's great seeing how you have so many friends. It seems like the twin cities that within the literary community, I was wondering, could talk how you've been able to maintain these friendships with all these people.
Speaker 6 00:33:33 Well, not to be contrary, but I, I don't have any friends I have other than lay finger play fingers. My friend, I like him. Everyone else is an acquaintance. And, uh, in, in my business hospitality, you learn to just create win-win situations. A lot of people think, uh, you know, that Cleco is some character that is always looking to advance himself. But if you ask the people that have been connected to they'll tell you I'm much more of a giver than a taker, because I've learned that my trade to be successful, you create the win-win. I've been very, very fortunate to be taught by a superior bakers, how to become the world's greatest bread baker. And with that skill, I bring food to people. I bring them to events, things like that, but you know, sometimes friendship that kind of gets goofy and it kind of ruins it, you know? So, uh, but the reason why anger and I become friends is because he's like me and he's kind of quiet and we just like stand on lake superior and fly kites and we don't talk, you know, so, but you'll learn that when you get to be an old man that, uh, one last talk is, you know, more love
Speaker 5 00:34:46 You think yourself as a bit of a quiet person.
Speaker 6 00:34:49 Yeah. I mean, the, the Cleco that everyone sees is just, it's a fictitious character. I, you know, when I was a child, I was so, I mean, I had to go to see therapists and stuff like that because I never talked. And so they like forced me to like, kind of create this fake person, if you will. Uh, and, and I started off by doing magic shows and things like that, but, uh, I'm a food service worker. And there was a point when I was working on west seventh and I thought, my God, I'm going to die making $9 an hour. And I thought, you know, I didn't, I'm not an entrepreneur. So I, I, I didn't want to invest, um, uh, in a, in a building, but I want to invest in myself. And that's when I started learning how to write and doing things like that. And, uh, but yeah, I mean, if, if, if you came over to my house, you would just see like my, the Russian supermodel and I, this is why it works. We, you know, we maybe talk to each other eight minutes a night, you know, but we have our own little jam and we do our things. And, but we do read books to you with each other. We're reading the new call, Hawkins book.
Speaker 5 00:35:53 Um, one of the things I saw on Facebook, you, you mentioned how floristry you're very passionate about is your favorite art form. How does forestry compare to writing?
Speaker 6 00:36:02 I'm not sure it does at all,
Speaker 6 00:36:07 Because the floristry is far superior. I mean, a bouquet of flowers, um, says more than any, it says more than Moby Dick or Warren piece or anything. And I love the connection. I, I, you know, uh, people are, who know how to do it. Um, well, are, are just wonderful. They're orchestrating, um, the most, uh, living beautiful things, but I liked that connection too. I love the connection of getting a really nice flowers and giving them to different people on different occasions in Washington, the impact, because there's two kinds of people in this world. There's a kind of people who, I mean, totally appreciate it, and you can see it. And then there's the people who act like it's not a big deal, but if it's beautiful, it makes them uncomfortable. And I have nothing against making people uncomfortable. If I, if, if my wife died or kicked me out of the house or whatever, I mean, I would still bring flowers into my house because I mean, you know, I mean, I'm about as macho, the guys you're going to meet this year, and I'm just telling you right now that a macho or, or not has nothing to do with accepting beauty.
Speaker 6 00:37:20 And, and there's nothing more, I mean, you can't name anything that's more beautiful than flowers. So I've given them to like some guys, um, you know, under, you know, um, kind of, you gotta be careful though, when you give a dude flowers, because some people like, uh, it just makes him so uncomfortable. They don't get it. And I don't want to really upset people or whatever, but I want people, um, you know, to, to appreciate the gesture. And I want him to realize that I do care about them, that I love them, uh, that I want them to be happy. And, uh, you know, it's, it's all part of the Cleco back.
Speaker 5 00:37:59 I've given flowers to people, but I've never received flowers. And I think now that you're talking about it, I think I would really be very moved by that. But, um, I'm happy that you're willing to kind of be vulnerable this way with me.
Speaker 6 00:38:09 And then it would depend to, uh, you know, but if you gave you crappy flowers, then it would, then it would be a stupid gesture. Like if they go into Speedway, violate
Speaker 5 00:38:21 The gas station,
Speaker 6 00:38:23 Right, then, then you're basically saying not only do I dislike you, I'm giving you crappy flowers. They've got, I mean, you know, you got to go like to a real florist and, and I'll tell you, right, right now, without like making this a whole floral show, you can never go wrong. Giving a dude yellow roses, like as in the yellow rose of Texas. I mean, that's, that's probably the most like, um, macho flower, straight gay. Doesn't matter. You can, can swing any way you want, but you have that, uh, yellow Rosa, Texas, you're there.
Speaker 5 00:38:55 I have a friend of mine I'm going to give them to be all flowers, I think for his birthday, December 29th. So we'll see how this goes. I hopefully I'll live through it.
Speaker 6 00:39:02 Well, I, I, I want, I wanna report, I want, you know, a follow up on this and, and, you know, w maybe we'll start like a masculine flower ministry across the great Metro. I'll take the six by one. You can have a six month
Speaker 5 00:39:17 And honest 10, you bring up how you try to make a connection between your birthday and Abe. Lincoln's prostates. Now, I think that's really interesting when people try to find or associate people they admire.
Speaker 6 00:39:29 Yeah. Well, I think there's two things people do. We like to make connections to the things that we idolize and the things that we, uh, adore, but we also like to make, uh, you know, there's like, if you're a numbers person, I like when my numbers fit together. And if I can make a number connect between me and Lincoln, it's almost like some kind of like celebrities Sudoku or something like that. And, uh, but it was interesting because when I saw those dates, I ran them by the Russian supermodel. And I, and I said, you know, I mean, kind of connects us in a way. And she just looked at me, you know, with no interest in the topic and said, well, why is that important to you? I thought about it. I said, well, yeah, apparently it is knowing that I'm such a tool that, you know, having a number in common with Lincoln in my head made me feel special. But yeah, to answer your question, I love doing that.
Speaker 5 00:40:28 I love the story you tell in link land, where you've met the last living, Carver Mount Rushmore, and despite whatever significance he might hold to us history, he didn't care. He just wanted to talk about baseball. And I really liked that it, to me, it says something very human. I think that we kind of look past sometimes like the most obvious playing things are probably more meaningful or more, more essential than something like being a Carver to a national monument.
Speaker 6 00:40:56 Yeah. The gentleman's name was Nick Clifford, and he was the last, last living. And I didn't know this, my, my camera ran out of batteries. I went into the gift shop and there's this old guy standing around a table with books and he had a baseball there. And it turns out that not only was he the last living Carver, uh, from Mount Rushmore, but he was also their ACE pitcher of their baseball team, Mount Rushmore had their own baseball team. And, uh, so I mean, I talked to him a little bit and he, you know, I said, you know, do it, I mean, that's pretty whack that you're willing to like, hang down and Carver Lincoln's nostril just to throw a baseball. It must've been terrifying. And Nick looks at me and he said, no. I mean, working in the mines, that's terrifying, um, doing this was, uh, eh, you know, it was just the way you made a living.
Speaker 6 00:41:48 And I also found it intriguing, you know, I mean, his focus, you know, he loved baseball so much because you got to remember when people worked on these monuments, not just Mount Rushmore, but afterwards I've talked to several other people about other monuments. These people didn't look at it in any way, shape or form as art. It was just a job. It's just like you go into the radio station. That's what they, that's just what they did, uh, to do what they do, you know? But, uh, it, it was fun to see them, you know, the joy that he got, because there's the, one of my favorite lines in the book in the entire book is when I saw Nick talking to this kid in a Baltimore Orioles, uh t-shirt the kid was eight. Nick had to be in his late eighties. And just for that split second, both of them wanted to be each other, you know? And, and that was just cool to be often a distance. You know, at least that was my interpretation, but having that interpretation inspired me and made me feel good for like four seconds.
Speaker 5 00:42:48 I wasn't aware. And I really hope you're going to do this. Keep on, do this, go to Ford. But there's McCalsky event at the turf club that I think you organized. And
Speaker 6 00:42:56 I mean, I have done it. I mean, the thing about Cleco that you need to know is sometimes I duplicate events, sometimes I don't, but the second everything becomes predictable on your calendar, you know, in the literary world. It's interesting because I'm a baker, but most of the MFA people, I mean, they'll accept me, but they don't like me because my events are better than theirs and I'm willing to say it. And it's just because I'm in hospitality when you do the same thing. And then, you know, people are after I started doing the Bukovsky show, then other people started doing it because then they start pilfering from my crowd, you know? But the thing is, and it's, you know, an art, you got to shift gears, Picasa then always stay, um, painting the green, Dora Maar after awhile, he switched to different music and stuff like that.
Speaker 6 00:43:51 So Cleco has read more books than anyone that you'll have in the studio this year. I mean, I that's, I don't know, on a TV, that's what I do. And if you have read more books than me than you're even cooler than I am, but I'll tell you this, I don't keep up. You know, like some people keep all their books, but to me that's like putting a burden to cage. You know what I mean? I want, if I'm going to have a book, I want it to be out there. And so I try to encourage people and pass it along or whatever, but there are a couple books that are just so wonderful that they, it just makes me feel good to look at them. Okay.
Speaker 5 00:44:26 So then let's talk about that. So I know in Lakeland, you said you've read close to, if not, maybe more than a hundred books on Lincoln. So those books you have, do you still have those, or did you give those away?
Speaker 6 00:44:37 No, I mean, I gave, I, you know, I had one guy, I have this group either, dude, he's like an old Marine Irish guy and he gave me, um, the Lincoln civil war set, uh, by Carl Sandburg and his autograph, it's like four or five volumes. It's autographed by Carl Sandburg. So obviously I saved those. And, uh, then there's Lincoln on the verge, which, uh, pushed me into Troy, Kansas. I have that. But I think the, and then my wife bought me one. We saw this thing when I talked to the, the dude in Illinois, um, who saw Lincoln space or whatever his dad sounded like in space. They had a relative who was on HBO, who, um, bought all the rights to every Lincoln photograph or something like that. And they did this pictorial book. It was like $112. And my wife gave it to me for my birthday. And so, you know, like birthday presents, you got to hold onto, like, you can't get rid of those right away if you have a wife. So in case you didn't know,
Speaker 5 00:45:43 And my real question for you about the different book club events, Marianne grow has been, despite all the changes, whatever mix up you might do with them. And she'll still be a fixture at these events though, is that true?
Speaker 6 00:45:52 Marianne Grossman is my best friend on the planet. And, uh, I just was on the phone with her 20 minutes ago, um, talking about what you and I were going to be doing and things like that. And, uh, and so oftentimes, you know, we did a, a queer Gatsby show at the university club two nights ago, and she wrote it up in the pioneer press. Uh, and then, uh, the author, you know, she did a Q and a with them and things like that, but she's another one that, uh, um, you know, she's in her mid eighties and she has more energy than anyone I know in their thirties. I mean, I, I took her she's, you know, I, maybe the only person I ever took to go fly kites with lay finger, because that's holy ground. Uh, and we're driving from here to there.
Speaker 6 00:46:43 And she told me about the day she was kidnapped romantically, but she used the word kidnap by studs, Terkel. And I just sat. Do you, have you ever read studs? No. Uh, well, I mean, I'm old, but Google search it he's the, because ski before because ski and, uh, he was here in town and anyways, he was going to some private events and he snapped her up and like made her go out to Minnetonka. And, uh, I asked Marianne, was there a love connection? And she just smiled and I'm kind of guessing maybe there was
Speaker 5 00:47:20 So talk about connections, your publisher. I just met a couple days ago, Julie Fitts singer, she's involved with Paris morning publications. She calls you on the book and tells you that even tide. I think it's what you say is, but it's a better book than Montana in 1948. You told me she was wrong. Oh,
Speaker 6 00:47:40 Well, it's definitely, I mean, tariff tariff is good, you know, who did even tide? It's a, it's a sweet book and it's nice. Um, and it's, uh, it does all the things that, you know, uh, female publishers, like, you know, like has character development and, and, you know, romance and whatnot. Uh, but 1948 was just raw and, and, and, and, and just, it was so sparse and so moving, I mean, and I didn't like reading it because it made me so uncomfortable, but at the same time, like a car crash, I couldn't leave. It's one of the few books over a hundred pages that I just, uh, I bet it's like 1 62 or 1 79. I just nailed it in one sitting because I had to know how it ended. Uh, and, and, and yeah, I mean, 1948, if you haven't read it top of the list
Speaker 5 00:48:38 To Gulf that, but I mean, at least for me, when I have to go for literature, I like stuff that really make me uncomfortable in some way. I don't know if I'm just a masochist that way, but I mean, I love to kind of be pushed in my understanding of like, oh, this makes, why am I uncomfortable with this? I want to know why, and I, I kind of seek that out.
Speaker 6 00:48:55 Yeah. Well, it's, it's, it's, it's good. I mean, it, I, you know, but it's uncomfortable. And sometimes, you know, like, you know, like when I'm sitting, um, in Cleco mansion with the Russian supermodel reading, we read like, you know, uh, Reese Witherspoon book, club books out loud to each other, like, uh, Ruth Ware and Paula Hawkins. And it makes me feel good because, you know, it's, it's, it's a cotton candy kind of moment. And so that kind of literature is really important. And I think people don't allow themselves to indulge themselves with silly literature. But when, when you read literature that changes your perception of the world, I read, you know, a lot of the Nordic literature that I've been reading, um, a lot of excuse, really queer. And, and which was really interesting for me that Joan, who has become one of my favorite authors, he's a queer writer who also, I mean, he's a film maker.
Speaker 6 00:49:57 He did Nicole Kidman's latest thing. And, uh, uh, wrote the music for Bjork, for the academy awards and stuff like that. But I mean, opening pages of, uh, like for instance, a moonstone, the boy that never was, has like, uh, explicit homosexual acts on that opening page, which, you know, I'm not approved by any means, but I just haven't, you know, read just, not even gay books, but necessarily a lot of novels that are sex content and is, is I guess, uncomfortable as it made me feel, it pertained to the theme of this book. And, and it got me through and to understanding a whole different world about persecution, not just of the queer community, but especially, um, you know, in different parts of the world where you get treated much worse than you might in, in Minneapolis, if that makes sense. Yeah. And, and anyone who knows, Cleco knows that I'm for any group of this getting persecuted I've, I've lived it, I've written about it. And I've when you work in hospitality, you work with every minority group with every gender and whatever, but there were talking to bottle about how rock and roll has had to change, um, lyrically and in content. And he made some comment that it made him nervous because young men are filled with so much anger. Young men are filled with so much testosterone. He believed rock and roll was good because it gave them a way to release that
Speaker 5 00:51:34 You wrote a book, you wrote a letter to bill Murray, you thanking him for making the film Razor's edge. I was wondering if you ever got a response from him at all?
Speaker 6 00:51:42 Well, I then, I mean, uh, Lincoln land was written during the pandemic and it was written where everyone was locked away. And I just basically decided I was going to reach out to all of my heroes, people who I liked. Um, some of the people, you know, that you mentioned who I dedicated to, um, answered back. And there's also a page of people who I'm not dedicating that to because they wouldn't participate in my pandemic with me. I could have put bill Murray on that, but I only criticized the writers, not the personalities, but, uh, I don't hold it against them. I mean, bill Murray has every want to be on the planet after them, but I will say that movie, the Razor's edge, uh, you know, I came from a background where everyone, I, you know, in my family everyone's college, um, you know, same with my, my wife, my kids, they all have master's degrees, but I saw that movie where he just wanted spiritual truth and he worked blue collar jobs. And it was the first time in my life. I just thought, you know, I'm just going to keep baking and I'm going to pursue, you know, Cleco, um, my higher power, all these different things. And as
Speaker 5 00:52:57 I actually,
Speaker 6 00:52:59 After summer set mom book,
Speaker 5 00:53:01 And my last question for you, I think you found the ghost of Lincoln in Claremont, Iowa. Why do you think he appeared to you here of all places?
Speaker 6 00:53:12 Good question. Um, and you know, and first and foremost, I mean, it's not the shell, it's not a shell to sell the book. I mean, uh, and I mean, I w some people are going to believe it. Some people aren't, I could really care less, but there's historical data that, I mean, at least 20 presidents, prime ministers, um, you know, people have seen his ghost more than most other people. And, uh, for me, when I was in Claremont, uh, it was, you know, at a point in this, I mean, this, this Lincoln land book was a quest. It was a legit serious quest that I was on. Um, I was truly present. I, and I drove all over America, um, from everywhere from Washington DC, um, to council Bluffs, which is west is only can never went, but when I saw him in Claremont, uh, it, I was just vulnerable. And, and I was at the point where I almost thought that, you know, I was an idiot for, you know, embark, you know, I embarked on a lot of interesting quests, but this one, I was just like, uh, kind of feeling insane. So I don't know. I mean, maybe, maybe, uh, he took pity on me or the spirit, uh, you know, I mean, who really knows,
Speaker 5 00:54:35 You're talking about, I think the red shoes, the Ruby shoes and wizard of Oz, is that how I wonder if such functionality crippled a lifetime of fantasy?
Speaker 6 00:54:43 Yeah, I, I, back when the XL center was a civic center, um, the Smithsonian brought, uh, Dorothy's slippers, uh, into St. Paul. And they were kind of like orange because they had to be for it to show up on sin aScope or whatever. Uh, and they were also very light and they were like sequenced. So it on, so Dorothy could be mobile. And I was nervous because I, you know, I've known the Russian supermodel since eighth grade Bible camp. And she has always been totally down with Dorothy. And she, you know, she's a quiet woman, uh, the Russian she's quiet, and she never tells you what she wants or what she needs. I could see how thrilled she was to see the slipper. And when I saw that it was just kind of trashy and, and, you know, um, disappointing, I thought, oh, shoot, this is gonna like disillusion her for life. But when, when we got outside, she just had this big grin from ear to ear. She didn't care. It wasn't the fact that it was a cosmetically disappointing. I mean, she was just in the presence of Judy Garland's slipper, and that was enough for her. And that is a lesson that all of you can learn from the Russian supermodel.
Speaker 5 00:56:04 I think that's a great point to leave this interview. You've been listening to my talk with Cleco and his, his collection. It's funny. I was trying to think of how you described this, but I it's micro stories. It's short story. It's these entries that make up Lincoln land is published by Paris morning publications.
