Speaker 1 00:00:16 Hello? I'm Dave Fettig and you are listening to right on radio on K F 90.3 FM and streaming live on the
[email protected]. Tonight. Liz olds talks with Carol about her messy girl mystery murder on Hollywood beach. When Amanda Beckwith's ex-husband's new wife is found murdered on the beach behind her house, her life spirals into chaos with few people, listening to her side of the story, Amanda resorts to her own devices to clear her name as she edges closer to the truth. Her status shifts from person of interest to next victim. Can't wait for that.
Speaker 2 00:00:55 Then I'm Annie Harvey. In the last part of the hour, I will be chatting with Lee Cole about his debut novel groundskeeping. Um, this is a love story, about two very different people who navigate the complications of class and identity of coming of age in America as social tensions. Increasingly widen Cole is from Kentucky, I believe, and a recent graduate of Iowa writer's workshop, all of this and more. So stay tuned to write on radio.
Speaker 3 00:01:39 Hello, Carol. This is Liz. Are you there?
Speaker 4 00:01:44 Hi,
Speaker 3 00:01:45 Greg to Greg to have you here on, right on radio. Just real quickly. We want to mention that it's our pleasure to drive. So you can go to cafe ai.org and give us lots of money. So, um, So Carol, why don't you give us, uh, well, we already did a, uh, a brief synopsis of the book. So why don't you just dive right into your reading for us?
Speaker 4 00:02:07 Okay. I'd love to. Okay. So this is the chapter in the beginning of the book. Fear is sensitizing. Every nerve in my body, my skin hurts. I'm freezing. I can't stop shivering. I think I'm developing breathless body syndrome. Grief, stay on the line that just pasture says, what else am I going to do? But I'm not good at rating in runs in my family. If I didn't have a cell, the cell phone ground into my ear, amplifying to dispatchers, heavy breathing, I'd seriously be rearranging my talk to her. How much longer I walked back to the window and fixate on Jean's house. Daisy isn't making the peat, which is more disturbing. Men are bark and growl. Why is it taking so long? There's an officer in your area. The dispatcher says, I swear, she's appeasing me. I can hear it in her monotone. She knows something, but doesn't want to tell me, are you holding back on me?
Speaker 4 00:03:13 I say, stay calm. I'll let you know. When the sheriff has survived a tree branch banks against the wind, my stomach quakes. I retreat retreat to my closet and tinker with the perfume bottles and flames on top of my dresser or thinking on queen Gail. By that time, the back door bubbling, I'm almost my normal neurotic sheriff outside. The dispatcher says gaze. He had started Burkeville again, I'll stand the line until you make contact. I unlocked my bedroom door in. Hurry downstairs, switching on lights. As I go at the front door, I looked through the tiny window. It's the cop alone, his name tag region and nother officers in the distance near the sand dunes. His back is to him often, sir, young is Alec Baldwin, big, huge worrying eye, huge gun on his belt, along with a whole lot of other dangerous working equipment. The side of him instantly restores my well-being with one deep breath. My heartbeat returns to almost normal. I can't believe how scared I was.
Speaker 3 00:04:33 That's Carol Benita, reading an excerpt from murder on Hollywood beach. Thanks again for being here with us on this Tuesday night on right on radio. Uh, well, let's start with what made you decide to write a mystery as your first, uh, novel debut novel?
Speaker 4 00:04:53 Well, I love, I love breeding mystery and, um, I was going through a really, really hard time in my life. I had, my husband was just diagnosed with cancer when I found out that my daughter was an alcoholic and, um, it was like the perfect storm and sitting in the waiting rooms and, you know, turning to, uh, distract myself. I just started imagining this young woman very much like my daughter, very smart, very well-educated, but for her drinking, um, she would have been a great success, but she let her drinking get in the way. And it caused in Amanda's case her to have a couple of arrests, uh, a divorce, bad marriage, messy marriage. And, um, like that finally, she was trying to piece together. Um, when her ex husband's wife washed up on the beach behind their house.
Speaker 3 00:06:11 I'm curious. Uh, excuse me, I'm curious, uh, who some of your, um, influences are, uh, generally in specifically.
Speaker 5 00:06:25 Okay. For authors.
Speaker 3 00:06:29 Yes. Yes.
Speaker 4 00:06:31 Oh, other authors. Okay. So light, I'm going to tell you right now life changing experience. So I I'm a writer
Speaker 5 00:06:39 And
Speaker 4 00:06:39 A ranger professional binder. I was a
Speaker 5 00:06:41 Sports writer, but as
Speaker 4 00:06:44 I always have, since I love breeding, I dreamed being, uh, writing a mystery novel
Speaker 5 00:06:53 Early,
Speaker 4 00:06:53 Early in my life. And it's kind of a funny
Speaker 5 00:06:57 Story.
Speaker 4 00:07:00 My boy was when I started reading Sophie Consella he can still up the shopaholic. Yes. And it was her character that sort of inspired Me to look at my amateur sleuth, Amanda, with my main character who, you know, was just struggling to keep her feet on the ground. And she really didn't have to be an expert at very much. She basically just kept hitting up against the wall, left a wall and stumbling through her own messy life until she finally came to terms with How I'm going to grow up. And very, I read, I read a lot. I read, um, Eleanor, all of that is okay. Do you know that recent book? And I thought of it kind of inspired that same sort of character, first person really, um, strong voice, trying to figure out how to navigate life. And Those are the kinds of books I love to read that I read all kinds of different authors, but none of the like hardcore mystery that I love reading, I could never figure out how to write that kind of book. And so I found the sensei Kuma and the, the sort of, you know, this real life, character, and Sophie console, it sort of match my own voice. And, uh, I think it really gave life to big character. Amanda.
Speaker 3 00:09:08 Um, she's a, uh, an organizer. How did she get into the organizing? She's organized for some very famous people. Carol Burnett, for example.
Speaker 4 00:09:19 Oh yeah. She's Carol Burnett, Rob blow, um, all the, the, the A-listers in mana Tito area and she came, she, she married her husband. Uh, he was a chiropractor. Her mom was a democratic or, um, fundraiser. So they lived from the business, uh, sort of this rarefied world in this beautiful little enclave of, of, of wealth. And, and Amanda, you know, just after graduating from college, started to write a blog and then met her husband who was this famous chiropractor and got married. And she really didn't have a real life until Jeff divorced her. And she had to sort of go in on my own. And the only thing that she could think of to do was organize. And she's very good organized her. She's obsessed with, with overthinking every single thing in her closet, in her kitchen, everything
Speaker 3 00:10:36 That her
Speaker 4 00:10:36 Whole, her personal license, a map.
Speaker 3 00:10:39 Right. But, uh, she keeps her closet, uh, in the spectrum. She Organizes her shirts in the spectrum, but then she gets irritated with somebody else because they do the spectrum in the wrong direction. As I recall, That's pretty organized. She's almost kind of compulsive about it. I would say
Speaker 4 00:11:06 She's very OCD.
Speaker 3 00:11:08 Okay.
Speaker 4 00:11:09 These very OCD and really what I think when I think about, you know, you ask, you know, like how, what inspired this character? And I, you know, I went through this really difficult time in my life. And when you think about, you know, trying to control what you cannot control, but when I discovered in writing is that even though I couldn't control the outcome, you know, for my husband or my daughter, who's really struggling with her disease. I could control in finance this character that I created, I could, I could help her find her way out, find the light at the end of the tunnel. And it was very therapeutic therapeutic for me.
Speaker 3 00:12:06 Did you, uh, write some in the hospital waiting rooms and the pencil on a notebook? Well, that must've helped a little bits anyway.
Speaker 4 00:12:19 I think it did. I take it? I actually helped a lot and my husband is, um, well, he's in a con, he was sorry, but, um, he was, but, uh, Nicole randomness, but he also had a passion for writing. So the two of us would, it was something that we could share together. He was working on a little detective novel and I was working on my nephew girl theories. And it was something that even in the, you know, the under the club that we were living under, we found this thing that we could do together.
Speaker 3 00:13:06 And we're
Speaker 4 00:13:06 Both optimists, you know, we both were optimists. We both, you know, never thought that, um, you know, just life we go on forever.
Speaker 3 00:13:20 Well Amanda's is kind of an optimist too, really. I mean, she, she, uh, uh, goes through a lot of questioning kind of Socratic method of trying to solve the crime there, uh, uh, questions and, um, comes up with a lot of different answers. And, uh, yeah, it's, it's a very interesting book in that regard. Uh, the way she, uh, tries to figure out who the, uh, actual murder is as she is, the suspect were personal interests. Those they say,
Speaker 4 00:13:53 Yeah,
Speaker 3 00:13:55 I'm talking about Danny. Oh, go ahead.
Speaker 4 00:13:59 No, no, no, you,
Speaker 3 00:14:01 Well, I wanted you to talk about Danny star. Uh, she starts out not liking him and then she kind of likes him and is kind of an ambivalent kind of a situation. Um, I'm curious, uh, how that came about in your mind.
Speaker 4 00:14:16 I, I, you know, I really, I really liked Danny star. You know, I like all these characters. I loved Lynette. I love, um, faintly her husband, all the characters that sort of came together, you know, came, you know, you as, as a writer, you know, you drink someone new on stage and you know, when the end and didn't really have great luck with, with her husband and not very good luck with the men at all. Um, and you know, the disease of alcoholism women, and I'm not sure about men, but they isolate themselves. So they ate, even though Amanda, somewhat of an optimist, she's sorta looking suspiciously at Danny. Like, you know, she speaks, he's very cute, but then he turns out to be this reporter who cooks this horrible picture of her on that, you know, uh, second page or front page or whatever, the second section of that LA times. And she feels totally, you know, in this moment, she's, she's in the church, she's cool. She's growing as she, you know, evolves in the five days, this normal takes place. But, um, you know, she felt betrayed, you know, she kind of looked at him like, oh, he's cute. And then decide later after he, you know, tells her that, asked her her name, you know, I just took a picture and, you know, to not forget it all he's after is a scoop.
Speaker 3 00:16:04 And then, uh, he tries to help her as well after, uh, after the betrayal he comes up and he says, I had got some news for you. And he, uh, she doesn't want to hear it. And it takes a while for him to be able to help her.
Speaker 4 00:16:23 Yeah. I think he, I think Amanda on the mandate is at least how I envisioned Amanda is like, is like the kind of person that you want to help because you can see she someone, if a train wreck, you know, and you kind of want to, even though he's the reporter and it's probably not ethical to talk to a possible, you know, to, you know, uh, she's just, she's protectively a suspect, you know, a person of interest and he's sort of, uh, there to rescue her in a way he sort of Amanda's that kind of, of person that you kind of want to help because you can just see her tripping into the bed, you know, the next payout, bad mistake. And you want to pull her back, you know, from the edge of the cliff,
Speaker 3 00:17:21 Don't go in that room.
Speaker 4 00:17:23 Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 00:17:27 Well, let's talk some, well first I, I want to say that we are speaking with Carol for Nisa about her book murder on Hollywood beach. And we are also in our, uh, fundraising drive our pledge drive and just very briefly, uh, want to let you know that this is the kind of thing that KPI does, uh, interviewing these wonderful authors and learning about their books. This is one of the things that cafe does, and this is what right on radio does all the time. And so if, uh, it would, uh, please you to help us out, give us, uh, uh, uh, tuned into our website kfa.org and follow the directions. And it will tell you exactly how to give to us. And it won't say how much money to give to us, but you can, uh, just be generous and we will appreciate it very much. So, uh, again, that's, KFA i.org. Carol, let's talk about some of the other writings you've done. Uh, it sounds like you're very much of a beach person. You wrote a book called survival. You want to talk about that book a little bit?
Speaker 4 00:18:35 Yeah, that was my, that was my first little book. And it's this, it's a little empowerment book for women, you know, younger women, I would say than anyone, honestly, it's, it's so cute. It's such a cute little book. And, um, my job as a marketing director for a company and a developer here in Dana point, California, um, there was a period of time between us getting our entitlements and then us moving forward with our projects. And in this downtime, I, you know, I lived on the beach and, uh, I grew up surfing and I grew up really growing up on the beach. And I really saw that the whole industry, the whole surfing culture had evolved. And now it wasn't like, you know, moon doggy or did jet and the surf. Um, it's really the whole, um, surfing culture had really elevated and women doctors and lawyers or young girl, um, you know, in sixth grade or 10th grade or scholar, athletes were, uh, surfing and competing.
Speaker 4 00:20:02 And it, it just, the whole sport had just evolved in such a way. And I thought more and more, especially in the women who were out there surfing. And so I wrote this little book and actually I started a company called smart girls who surf and I developed this product sunscreen. It really, really amazing product, um, for all mineral, for really protecting women and men really against skin cancer. So it really was this very high quality, custom, um, formulated surf, you know, waterproof, everything was a great, it's a great product, but I turned this little 12 page a user's manual into a 98 page, um, inspirational book for women. So, and women who, who served and women who don't. And, um, I have a chapter in that book on the city girl, and it just really all positive. Like the, I think the subtitle is work hard, have fun, be passionate. And I think that's a theme that thrilling on through my life, having finance and pig theme in my life and working hard.
Speaker 3 00:21:35 That sounds wonderful. Be passionate. I love that. Uh, why don't you let us know if, uh, if, uh, the messy girl is a series?
Speaker 4 00:21:45 Oh yeah. Okay. So it is Amanda. You just can't stop Amanda. So the next book, and it should be finished within the next four or five months. And now next year, probably, uh, this time next year. Um, yeah, exciting.
Speaker 3 00:22:07 I hope you'll send us a copy. Maybe we can interview you again about the new messy girls
Speaker 4 00:22:16 And your senior cause to your patients.
Speaker 3 00:22:23 Um, yeah,
Speaker 4 00:22:27 No, I always want to help.
Speaker 3 00:22:29 Oh, thank you very much. Uh, we've been talking with Carol vendetta for Nita. I'm sorry. We're out of time. Uh, it's been fun to talk to you about domestic girl mystery and hopefully, uh, people will hop to it. Who was the publisher?
Speaker 4 00:22:46 Uh, like messages publishing and the book just came out today. So this is a celebration.
Speaker 3 00:22:52 Let's celebrate that.
Speaker 6 00:22:55 Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:22:56 Okay. We will celebrate and you can celebrate, and it's a great celebration to have you with us and I'm afraid. I'm afraid I have to Go ahead.
Speaker 4 00:23:07 Okay, Liz. Oh, no, it's been a privilege really? Thanks.
Speaker 3 00:23:11 Oh, thank you for, for joining us and it's time to say goodbye now. So thank you very much. And goodbye, Carol finito, author of murder on Hollywood beach.
Speaker 4 00:23:24 Thank you. Bye-bye
Speaker 3 00:23:25 Bye-bye
Speaker 1 00:23:33 And if you haven't picked it up yet, ladies and gentlemen, it is pledge week here at K F a I, and we know how much you listeners are to write on radio, appreciate and love station. And, uh, there's a little way you can show some love. You can go on to K F a i.org and make a donation whenever you think is appropriate. Am I right? Annie and Liz?
Speaker 2 00:23:57 You are so right. Um, for those who are perhaps newer to cafe, um, we are community radio. We are 100% community funded, um, and right on radio here, this show you're listening to right now. Um, we are not in any kind of financial relationship or anything with any of the publishers whose books we read. Um, we do this because we care and we care about the public conversation around books, and we care about, um, the representation and dialogue that they bring to the world and to the, to the community here in the twin cities. Um, we're here doing this because we love this and we love to be on a station where one hour you are listening to, um, Somali, popular music. And then a couple hours later, you're hearing, uh, um, intense dialogue about current events. And then we also have, um, amazing discussions about books and music and art, and, um, coming from all kinds of cultural perspectives
Speaker 3 00:24:57 And music shows as well. For example, a boardroom in Minnesota comes on right after, right on radio. And that is a show that, excuse me, that is a show that, uh, features, uh, music from France and artists interviews with artists from France and so on. It's a great show it's been on for many, many, many, many years, started out with Georgette, Frank, who, who has, uh, uh, passed away quite a while ago. But, uh, the, the, um, torches continued to be born by, by, uh, Freddie now and his friends. So it's, uh, it's a great show. And, um, we do the calendar every, uh, every week we do the calendar, I put it together and other people read it. And, um, that's something that's important. You know, it's funny because we stopped doing the calendar for a while and we got all kinds of calls saying, do the calendar, do the calendar. So, so all you people who like the calendar, give us a call, uh, or at, uh, 3 7 5 6 1 2 3 7 5 9 0 3. Zero is the way to, uh, call in. I believe Miguel is sitting in there waiting for your call, or you can just simply go to cafe i.org and, uh, follow the instructions
Speaker 2 00:26:16 Last. But absolutely not least will perhaps not last because my Palestinian might have something else to say, but we do also have, uh, podcasts not only from us at right on radio, but from cafe in general. So you can go in Spotify, apple, Google, play, whatever the podcast app you got on your little devices and, um, look for cafe I, and for right on radio and listen wherever you are. Um, we're really excited to be on podcast platforms and right on radio, we to adapt, uh, occasionally and additionally bring some longer interviews that don't fit in the usual two times 30 minutes,
Speaker 3 00:26:50 Which is w R I T E right on radio. Isn't that clever?
Speaker 1 00:26:56 That was the point I was going to make Annie. And I would just add to that. I listened to, KFA mostly on my phone with the little app to listen, live, live radio on your phone, not just sitting at your desk when you should be working. So there you have it any,
Speaker 2 00:27:10 Yeah. Well, thank you so much. Um, yeah, you can give us a ring at 6 1 2 3 7 5 9 0 3 0. If you don't really want to be on the phone right now. Totally cool. cafe.org on your computer, on your phone, wherever it is. And you can donate if that's financially hard right now, that's totally fine. You can also volunteer at KFA if you're in the area, um, we are all here because we're volunteers and we love what we do. So feel free to feel free to reach out and join us. Thank you.
Speaker 3 00:27:37 Hey, we got a pledge here.
Speaker 2 00:27:39 Yeah, we did. Okay. Um, I'm super excited and cannot hold back any longer. Our guest Lee Cole, um, has called in. So, um, thank you for helping us out with pledge y'all and very excited to welcome Lee on air Lee Cole. Welcome to cafe I, and thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 8 00:28:01 Hey, thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 2 00:28:02 Thank you. Um, so Lee Cole is the first-time author of, uh, groundskeeping out now. Um, an excellent novel, um, oh quick, thank you for pledge. Uh, thank you, Jeremy B for your pledge. Thanks so much for listening. We love having you. Um, and now, uh, back to the matter at hand, um, Lee, could you please give us a brief summary of grants keeping for anyone who hasn't had the chance to pick it up yet?
Speaker 8 00:28:32 Sure. So groundskeeping is about, um, uh, an aspiring writer named Owen who has kind of, uh, had some wild days in his early twenties, and he's returning home to rural Kentucky, to live with his grandfather and uncle he's living in his grandfather's basement. And they're both Trump supporters and he gets a job as a groundskeeper at a nearby college. Um, and in exchange for the work he's allowed to take a writing course. Um, and it's here that he meets Alma. Who's a visiting writer at the school and comes from a really different background. Her family members are Bosnian immigrants, and she grew up in the suburbs of DC and went to an Ivy league school. And now she's a successful writer. Um, and they began a kind of secret romance. And as time goes on, things sort of, uh, go awry. They find it hard to understand one another and to make their relationship work amid all of the kind of turmoil around 2016.
Speaker 2 00:29:35 Yeah. I, one of the reasons I wanted to have this show cover this book specifically as I think that it does a wonderful and lovely job of complicating and really looking at different sides of people across party lines and across political divides and kind of rural urban divide. So just wanted to shout that out on the top in case that, um, interests anyone who's listening and just to thank you, Lee.
Speaker 8 00:30:02 Thanks.
Speaker 2 00:30:02 Um, so to kind of dive into how you structured and wrote the book, um, is there any particular reason or kind of stylistic thing that drove you to, um, write this book in a structure where it's not really broken in specific chapters?
Speaker 8 00:30:22 Yeah, I mean, it, you know, it doesn't have, I guess, conventional a number of chapters, but it does have these discrete sections with page breaks between them. And as best I can remember, I think that these sections were sort of what I was able to write in a single sitting, as I was composing the first draft with some exceptions, there were some longer sections, but, um, so yeah, it's just, it kind of came out that way. Um, but I found when I was revising and rereading that the, that the short sections gave the book kind of propulsion, um, and that a reader might be willing to read, you know, just one more section, if it's only a few pages as opposed to a conventional chapter that might be 20 or 30 pages. Um, but honestly the, you know, these justifications are mostly retrospective. It was kind of just the way it came out. And, and once I gotten going on it, you know, I didn't want to break the spell by changing the structure midway through.
Speaker 2 00:31:21 Yeah. And it felt, it felt to me reading it, it felt like a very natural flow picking up and pausing. And it also felt like, you know, as a writer, when you write a certain period of time or a certain section of a book, um, it, they felt very complete left as kind of the pieces that they're in rather than chopping up periods of time into different chapters. Like it felt very much like a lived experience.
Speaker 2 00:31:47 Um, so I kind of want to take a moment to spin over into the creative writing class, um, in the book, a lot of books that center on kind of future author protagonists, at least that I've read, make the focal creative writing class, this amazing revocatory experience. And, uh, oh, and the protagonist does get good support and mentorship from his creative writing professor who helps him prepare to get a master's, um, the class itself, um, which is called jungle narrative, um, sometimes will feel Naval gazey or cringe, or, um, so tell me about your experience making this, what the creative writing classes and what the experience you want it to be for Owen and for the reader.
Speaker 8 00:32:33 Yeah. Um, so I started out, I think, kind of writing about this class as a fairly conventional writing workshop, um, with the sort of usual wisdom one gets in a writing workshop, but I found after a while that I was just really bored with that. Um, and I thought it would be funny, I guess, or I dunno, just do it would make it weirder and more interesting for me for Owen to be sort of subjected to a themed workshop. Um, so when I was teaching an Iowa, a lot of grad students chose themes for their classes and because there was very little supervision, people could sort of pick whatever theme they wanted, even if it was only tenuously related to writing literature or whatever. So, um, the writing class was in that way kind of a satire of some of the bizarre or ill-advised themed workshops I've heard about or participated in over the years. Um, but you know, I think that the writing teacher though gives Owen some of the best advice with the book. Um, you know, he, he's consistently giving him this good advice that, uh, you know, whatever you think about a character or a person that they're always more complicated than that. And I think that's a lesson that Owen has to keep learning throughout the book. For sure.
Speaker 2 00:33:53 Yeah. The creative writing teacher was both, um, someone who brought information that was really needed into the book for Owen, both about, um, kind of basic tenants for structuring books, but also, um, ways to think about his future and ways to pursue options, um, outside groundskeeping. And yeah, it was just funny to have that. I love the juxtaposition with everyone with, even with him saying like, people are more complicated than you would think in your characters, even characters you don't like, he also is teaching this class where it clearly something in the topic is about something that's been triggering him in his own life. But then at the same time, he also can give this really, um, insightful work to this clearly smart and interesting person. Who's a little adrift.
Speaker 8 00:34:38 Yeah. I mean, he kind of has this compulsion or obsession or something with these jungle narratives and can't really step outside of that and see how problematic the classes, but you're right on, on the other hand. Yeah. I guess you could say as a kind of solid foundation in technique or writing Korean craft, I guess, you know, and he's able to pass that on to Owen, I think.
Speaker 2 00:35:00 Yeah. Um, just for fun. Do you have any odd in real life, uh, workshops that you have given or participated in you don't, you don't have to list out who taught them, you know, we don't want you to like, to anyone on this podcast, but
Speaker 8 00:35:20 Yeah. I mean, I'm thinking, you know, well, I taught a lot of, um, courses on Appalachian, uh, literature and fiction. Um, and it was in Iowa and I can remember, you know, there were some, some days where that went really well and other days where, you know, it was just a horrible train wreck. I can remember like asking at what, because we were talking about cliches and stereotypes and I can remember asking one day, like, what are the, what cliches do you associate with Kentucky or stereotypes associated with Appalachia? And they, I was met with a barrage of, uh, stereotypes that I wasn't ready for, you know, so I can remember, you know, the there's, you know, and I would always have a theme, a loose theme at the beginning, and then the class would always kind of spiral out of control and just become about, you know, the difference between past and present tense and, you know, not using so many adverbs and that sort of thing. So yeah,
Speaker 2 00:36:20 The, the moment and every writing workshop where you got to go through it and be like, so this page is in present tense and this page is in past tense. Let's talk about that. Yeah. Um, on the topic of kind of Appalachian, um, stereotypes and assumptions, well, first of all, uh, Liz, who is a co-host in this room, you can't see her, but she gave a little fist pump at that. She's from, she's also from the Appalachian region. Um, this does segue really nicely into, um, something else I really wanted to talk to you about, which is that, you know, there, um, there came a point in the Trump presidency and kind of just life right now, where we all get sick of like seeing Trump on our phones or at least many of us do or seeing Trump era media. Um, but this, this book impressed me as a capital T capital E Trump era book, because I think that it does a good job at nuancing and, um, giving multi-dimensional stories, uh, to middle America and giving, um, realistic depictions of people's experiences and how they kind of come head to head if you're in like a middle American city versus the country, um, different family, um, and more nuanced depictions about how people's political views and vocabularies have this like deeply circumstantial and cultural element to them.
Speaker 2 00:37:44 Um, and I just wanted to hear a little more about kind of your process building people's characters, political views.
Speaker 8 00:37:53 Well, you know, writing about, about politics in fiction anyways hard because you want to avoid being didactic or making it into a kind of screen, a political screed or something. And I also, you know, wanted to avoid, I, I felt like, you know, there was so much political theater during the Trump era, which makes sense, given that he's this, you know, reality show clown. Um, but there was so much that was just kind of surreal and, and, uh, you know, seemingly unrelated that theater, that political theater seemed pretty unrelated to the real hardships and problems that people were having.
Speaker 2 00:38:32 Um,
Speaker 8 00:38:34 So, you know, it was important to me though, to try to make an effort to understand why people voted for Trump in a way that didn't assume the worst about them, or reduce their motivations to some kind of really simplistic explanation. And that doesn't mean, you know, defending, defending them necessarily or their beliefs or their behavior. But I think it just means kind of trying to make an effort to understand where they're coming from. Um, and the truth is that people had a lot of different reasons for voting that way. Some of which were, you know, contradictory or based in emotion rather than rationality. Um, and I guess you could say the same for Clinton voters too. Um, I mean, I think there are a lot of millennials who voted for Clinton because they felt they had no better choice, you know, so I don't know, I guess I think I was just trying to write about real, real complicated people who couldn't be reduced to a label. It couldn't be reduced to, you know, capital L liberal or capital C conservative. Um, and I just tried to keep in mind that, you know, nobody's life is defined by who they vote for, you know, in an Electrum
Speaker 2 00:39:42 Totally when you're creating a character in this book. Um, and that includes primary characters and side characters. Um, do you typically, um, are you someone who will conceive of someone kind of in an amalgam of people that you've known before, or are you kind of more of like a invention and research type of writer? I'm just curious about your process?
Speaker 8 00:40:08 Well, it depends on the character. I mean, I think a lot of times, yeah, a character will be a kind of composite character. So I mean, a good example is, is Rondo, you know, who isn't based on anyone in particular, but he's just sort of based on this particular kind of dude that I feel like I've worked with and a lot of kind of bad jobs over the years. And he's like, you know, smoking like four packs a day and he's got his giant thermos of coffee and he's, he's pontificating about his Beatles, you know, vinyl collection. And I just feel like I know that guy so well and in his different kind of incarnations, if that makes sense. Um, so for that character, it was, it was sort of, yeah. An amalgam, I guess, but, um, you know, there are other characters that are maybe less familiar to me that, you know, do involve some research or, you know, something like that, I would say,
Speaker 2 00:41:03 Yeah, not to put a hard and fast rule down about the universe, but I feel like there's a rando at every retailer surface job also
Speaker 8 00:41:12 Sounds about right. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:41:14 Yeah. Uh, to kind of stay on that groundskeeping team, uh, where Owen works with Rondo, um, his friend and someone who is very kind and insightful in the book, his coworker James is the only black character in the book. Um, and the only kind of character with a prominent minority status who can't pass for white and he'll often end up voicing statements about racial and political privilege, um, in the novel and kind of cultural alienation. Um, why did you include, um, well, I'm, I understand why you would want to include his perspective, um, cause it's, you know, a book about kind of the multiplicity of ideas. Um, but how did you choose James particularly? And why did you choose to make him the sole black perspective, um, in this particular book?
Speaker 8 00:42:01 Yeah, so I mean Ashby college, which is kind of the campus where it sat as our fictional place, but I think I was kind of imagining its location roughly to be in bullet county, which is this county sort of south of Louisville. And, um, demographically bullet is about 96% white. You know, only about one, 1% of the population is black. Um, and Kentucky generally is about 87% white. So, you know, if James does sometimes end up voicing statements about race, um, I think it's because a lot of black folks in Kentucky find themselves in that, you know, unfair position of being one of the few black perspectives in a town or a county that's it's overwhelmingly white. Um, having said all that though, I think, I think there's more to James as a character. And I think most of his dialogue isn't about race. He has, he has his own arc as a character and his own goals and he's a history student and an arborist and accomplished arborists. And I think if looking at his scenes throughout the book, I think he's just as likely to be talking about those topics as he is about issues of race.
Speaker 2 00:43:11 James also provides support and company to Owen in a way that Owen doesn't always reciprocate. Like it seems like James really goes out on a limb to be there for the other people on the grounds keeping group, in addition to being a grad student and working and Owens kind of like just, just do an Owen stuff.
Speaker 8 00:43:31 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's a little, you know, self-involved as a, as a character, I mean, he's, he's a flawed character just like anybody else in the book and it, yeah, it does. It would make me a little bit queasy to think that anyone would sort of see on as the, uh, I dunno, like the hero of the book or something. Um, but you know, yeah. He's only sort of surrounded by people who are giving him a lot of wisdom. You know, we mentioned the writing teacher, for example, or even, even Alma, you know, um, and he has to learn the same kind of difficult lessons over and over again. Um, I do think that he grows as the character by the end, but you're right. That he's, he's often, uh, in his own world, I think,
Speaker 2 00:44:18 Yeah. I'll say, I'll say I can make this joke because I studied creative writing, but like a lot, a lot of creative writing majors kinda like got their, got their own little world going on. Just fine. Um, yeah. So speaking of, kind of the interpersonal relationships in the book, um, I like to also have this book treated what it is to know someone and kind of what your self perception feels like versus others perception of you. Um, and I was just wondering how you conceptualize and build out oh, and an Alma that primary couples, self perceptions and social norms and kind of how you wanted to treat and describe those in the book.
Speaker 8 00:44:58 Well, I think that there's, you know, this kind of inherent level of self-consciousness whenever, whenever you begin a new relationship, I guess. Um, so you're kind of seeing yourself newly through the eyes of this other person. Um, and I think that's the case for Owen and Alma. He's thinking about whether she's going to judge him based on his background or based on his family members. Um, and you know, when she finally does end up meeting them and then I think she's having similar worries, you know, so these questions of class and politics are, you know, I think we're simmering beneath the surface for both of them, especially for Owen, but, you know, it's their relationship beginning that brings those to the, to the foreground. Um, and you know, while there are different, I mean, I keep saying in, in all my interviews and stuff, promoting this book, I keep talking about how different they are, but they do have a lot in common, I think.
Speaker 8 00:45:57 And the main thing is that they both have this longing for the unfamiliar, um, you know, for Owen it's that he longs to leave Kentucky and to get out into what he imagines is, you know, the quote unquote real world where life is actually happening. And for Alma, I think Kentucky kind of comes to represent the unfamiliar for her. And she almost sort of starts to see it as this quaint or exotic place. Um, and as time goes on, she becomes more attached to it. So as characters, they kind of meet each other going in opposite directions, you know, but I think they're, they're both Mo motivated by, uh, similar impulses.
Speaker 2 00:46:37 Yeah. And I don't want to spoil too much, but the conversation about the ethics of using real life, people and events in your published writing hits a fun twist in this book where Owen kind of seems like he's going to land in a different area of the power dynamic and a couple people hint at it, but then he winds up somewhere else. Um, did you as an author or as a writing teacher at Iowa, um, bring any personal experiences or reckonings into that kind of dimension of the book?
Speaker 8 00:47:08 Well, I, in writing this, I wanted to push Owen to make mistakes and to transgress in ways that I wouldn't as a person, because I feel like misbehavior is often what drives good, good fiction when you can, when you can make a character and misbehave. Um, so, you know, I wouldn't, for instance, you know, write about someone else's family secrets in the way that Owen does, because that would be invading their privacy. Um, but you know, writing a character is a different story. I mean, I, I, it was painful. They make Owen do these things and make these dubious choices. But, um, you know, I think that pushes pushes the conflict even further. And, you know, I did base certain characters and events on, on life experiences, but they're pretty exaggerated and pretty distorted in the book. And I think people have tended to assume that it's more autobiographical than it is.
Speaker 8 00:48:11 Um, you know, for instance, I worked, I did work as a tree trimmer for awhile, my early twenties, but it was trimming roadside trees and trees and in city parks. So I wasn't doing that kind of work on a, on a college campus, um, and zoom. So most of the autobiographical details I've used have just been kind of jumping off points. Whereas Owen Owen is, it's more of a one-to-one relationship is really kind of just transcribing his life onto the page. And it's this compulsion to record everything about his relationship that ends up kind of damaging the relationship. And that's, that's a tension that I wanted to explore.
Speaker 2 00:48:48 Yeah. Well, I'm glad you have the opportunity, hopefully in many interviews to kind of clear up that difference because I feel like a lot of times our writer can use their own life, I guess, as like set dressing and background more so than every plot point of the book. Yeah. Um, to kind of spin back just for a hot minute, do you have recommendations for Appalachian literature, for anyone who may be listening? Who's kind of curious to get into that area.
Speaker 8 00:49:19 Sure. Um, so there's a West Virginia writer named Breece pancake. Um, you know, it's sort of a strange name I guess, but, um, he was writing in the seventies mostly, um, and he really just has one story collection. Uh, but the stories are all just really fantastic. Um, and then there's a Kentucky writer, uh, Chris Offit, um, who's fantastic. Um, is this collection called, um, out of the woods? Um, I think that's what it's called. Yeah. Out of the woods. Um, that's great. And another called Kentucky straight. It's good. Um, and then, uh, uh, there's a Western because she's not Appalachian really, but she's from closer to my neck of the woods and in Kentucky, Bobby and Mason, um, who is a fantastic writer and one of my big influences and, um, she wrote two really great collections in the eighties and then wrote a novel called in country, um, which was made into a movie with Bruce Willis. Um, pretty great movie too. So, uh, she's, she's really fantastic.
Speaker 2 00:50:28 Cool. Well, thank you so much. Um, I, that is all we have time for today. Um, but I really appreciate having had you on the show for those who joined
Speaker 8 00:50:39 Us.
Speaker 2 00:50:41 Yeah. It's, it's really been great. Um, for those who joined us partway, this is Lee Cole, um, author of debut novel groundskeeping. Leanne has been so much fun to have you. Um, thank you and take care.
Speaker 8 00:50:52 Okay. Thanks. Bye-bye bye.
Speaker 1 00:50:56 You have been listening to right on radio on K F AI 90.3 FM and streaming live on the
[email protected]. I'm Dave FEDEC. I'd like to thank our special guests tonight, Carol and Lee Cole, and all of our listeners. That's you without your support and donations, K F a I would not be possible. You can find out more, find more news and info about right on radio at K fai.org/right on radio. And don't forget about our wonderful podcast. Oh, that's the next item. Please listen to recent episodes on our podcast found on Spotify, iTunes, Google play, and anywhere else, podcasts can be found.
