Speaker 1 00:00:28 You are listening to a right on radio podcast, exclusive with Annie Harvey. Let's dig in
Speaker 1 00:00:49 Um, you were listening to KFA I 90.3 FM and streaming live on the
[email protected]. I'm Annie Harvey. And today I'm here talking to Mari Naomi. They are the author of Dragon's breath and other true stories along with many other collections, prolific comics, artists for decades. And I am so excited to have them on the show today. Hi Mary.
Speaker 2 00:01:13 Hi, thank you so much, Eddie, for having me
Speaker 1 00:01:16 Here. Could you kind of just start us off and welcome those who have not read the collection yet in bite kind of briefly just describing the collection, what it's about.
Speaker 2 00:01:28 Sure. A Dragon's breath and other true stories, which came out, um, a number of years ago, it's all autobiographical stories. The theme central east is compassion. Uh, most of what I write about is involves looking through other people's eyes or, you know, getting into their skin, which I feel like is the whole point of human existence, honestly. And certainly the whole point of literature. So I just was trying to follow along that vein. It's a, it's a bunch of short stories. They all hopefully stand on their own, but also kind of interconnect because they are just my life.
Speaker 1 00:02:09 Yeah. And this is a compilation and part of the joy of a compilation is that there's some work that's older or previously serialized and there's some newer work and they're all kind of hanging out together and a reader can really watch your style evolve over time and see, see those changes. Do you feel like your evolution over time in your comics stylistically has been deliberate or like how much do you think the growth and change just as what comes with practice and time?
Speaker 2 00:02:40 Well, some of it does with this particular collection. It's not over a, a very long amount of time. Um, I came out, this was the second book that I came out with my first book. I was very desperate to promote it. And so, um, as it, after it came out, it came out with Harper Collins, your perennial, which is a pretty big publisher, but I was the, the smallest minnow in that big C. So I was thinking, you know, how do I get my name out there? How do I get this book to sell? So I was just taking a bunch of web comic, uh, jobs and just as any gig that I could take that had high profile so that I could get my name out there and get people interested in my book. And that's what you end up with with Dragon's breath. Another true story is a compilation of all I was doing in about a year or two. So it was very short. Um, the reason that you see a lot of change in styles is because I was using that, uh, the web comic format, which to me seemed like, oh, it's no big deal. This is going to, no, one's going to pay attention to this later. I could just try whatever it'd be experimental ha ha. Jokes on me. It's an, a book now that people still have read many years later.
Speaker 1 00:03:54 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:03:55 When you're one story, uh, that involved a leather jacket that I just, I was like, well, I'm just going to try out this new pen set and see if it works. And so that's how I drew that particular comic was through markers. And I don't think I ever used those markers again because honestly I did not enjoy the experience sort of drawing with them, but it was very experimental for me.
Speaker 1 00:04:16 I like the idea of experimenting and then allowing that to be work, you shop out and show places because I feel like a lot of people, including sometimes myself really get afraid to like show people, experiments, or show people, things you haven't done a thousand times. Um, how did it feel to send out more experimental material? Like, did that just feel run of the mill for you? Or was that something you had to make a really conscious choice to hunker down and do?
Speaker 2 00:04:43 Well, this is the first time I ever put stuff on the internet and I was, and I'd been making comics. So this was probably done in 2011 and 12 when I started these stories. And, uh, I've been making comics since the nineties and it was always in mini comic format or a book or anthologies. So that's a very different experience putting something into the world that, you know, that will end up in random people's hands, you know, maybe a year later versus putting it on the internet and getting instant feedback. And I, it was terrifying and appalling and wonderful and just a beautiful experience instantly instantly connecting with people, particularly on the rumpus where, you know, there was such a tight community of writers there, and everyone was pretty much a compassionate person who would comment. And it was, it was not the same as some other web sites that I will not name here where you do not want to be the comics.
Speaker 2 00:05:40 So the re-emphasis, I very much wanted to read the comics because people were so supportive and wonderful and it just, it felt like I was just diving into a community when I was making a lot of these comics. And sometimes I would gauge the comment comments, and that would determine what would work on the next week or two. Uh, that's that's, that's sort of the progression. The emotional progression of the stories is what really resonated with people. And I would say, oh, this really resonates, which, you know, of course gives me endorphins when I connect with people. I'm like, this is great. And so that encouraged me to make more intimate work, done a line or to do this or that. And, um, I just, you know, I wanted to jump further and further into the pond. It was, it was really great.
Speaker 1 00:06:24 That's so cool. Do you feel have having started more in many comics and paper comics and stuff, do you feel like there were similar learning analogs of that, like from when you were doing like paper work or do you think the immediacy of the online comics really just gave a different experience fully about like how instantaneous feedback can be?
Speaker 2 00:06:47 It was pretty different. Um, I don't know that I learned anything while I was making comics other than to not show certain people, your mini comics. I feel like I learned so much while I was making these particular comics, uh, you know, both in technique and storytelling and all sorts of things, even though I'd been making comics for a very long time, but, but I, but I was very, very alone when I was making those other comics, you know, aside from when I would show it to a friend or a coworker, never again, whatnot,
Speaker 1 00:07:29 Where it's still live by what you learned from many comics is who to show your mini compass
Speaker 2 00:07:34 Curiously.
Speaker 1 00:07:38 So when bringing these web comics where you were kind of on this, like evolutionary snaky journey of learning and feedback and turning them into a physical compilation, how did you build kind of a structure for the book? Is it a chronological? Is it an ideological structure?
Speaker 2 00:07:56 It was chronological for the most part. Uh, I was having issues about what to end with because some of some of that stuff, like, I didn't want to end on a dark note, which I ended up doing, because I think that's, it makes for a better book, but, you know, I, but ending on a lighter note, wouldn't have been chronological. I mean, ultimately what you see is just the chronologic chronology of me. So,
Speaker 1 00:08:21 Yeah. Cool. Um, so in a lot of your illustrations, something that I loved visually is every page has this very clean feeling for those who have looked at the book, you'll see that a lot of the pages give you some have more traditional little panels and a gutter, but a lot of them are just a single panel on a page. And a lot of the illustrations, um, omit extra details down to exactly what is needed for an image to come across. So like, there'll be two people in a car and the car will just be represented by a couple of carefully angled lines, but you can still feel the fact that they're in a car and you're not kind of looking at it and thinking like, oh, that kind of looks like a Corolla or like, oh, I wonder what it is based on what this car looks like. It just puts you right where you need to be. And I was just wondering for you, um, what is your process for building a panel and finding exactly the right amount to show versus omit
Speaker 2 00:09:19 While I was making this book, I was sort of learning that technique. Now I'm sort of intuitive about it. Thank goodness, because it would take a long time for me to figure these things out. I once had a friend, Rick <inaudible> is a cartoon, is to set, suggested that I try telling as much as possible with the fewest lines possible. And that's not always my rule, but sometimes it is. And in these instances, it is, I feel like when you do that, you're really zooming in on a feeling or a character. And I really like that, uh, that feeling a lot of when I was making this particular book involved, me, drawing out entire scenes and then just erasing everything until I had what I wanted. And it was, as you can imagine, took a long time
Speaker 1 00:10:09 Wondering if you would ever do that, like draw something big and then erase our omit down that. Yeah. Did that ever feel painful to like put a lot of labor into something and then get rid of the
Speaker 2 00:10:23 Killing your darlings? It was pretty rough, especially when I'm particularly happy with how a building came out or something, but sometimes it's just not necessary. And I just, um, as, because I was doing all these mini or all these web comics at the same time, also, I suddenly had deadlines, whereas I really hadn't prior to that. Cause I was just doing it for my own hobby, just happiness. So, uh, at one point the rumpus asked me to do more and I think it was every week or every couple of weeks. And I, all I was doing was making comments all the time. Like I didn't have time for the, my freelance work or anything. And I was making these comics that were essentially free. I wasn't making any money off of them for the most part. And, and so I was just, uh, and I just was working constantly.
Speaker 2 00:11:10 And so just by that very nature, I got really good at paring down without, uh, overtime without drawing too much. Uh, and ultimately I think I told the rep as after a couple of months of this, I'm like, I can't, I can't keep up this rate because I have, you know, all these other web comics that I'm also working on, it was too much. And so I scaled back a little, but even so like I was still working constantly. Um, now I'm at, uh, at the point in my life where I'm like, I need weekends, I need a day off some tough times. And I refuse to work on Saturdays and Sundays, unless there's something urgent
Speaker 1 00:11:46 When you're resting. Do you also end up doing art in that time or has art kind of been caught? Do you have, like, I guess what I'm asking is, do you have like rest art or is art primarily in the like workspace for you now?
Speaker 2 00:12:01 I forbid myself to make art when I'm not on a, it's not a work day and you know, sometimes on workdays because I do have a flexible schedule sometimes. Like if I'm not on a, uh, a deadline, like I will get creative and I will do me stuff on, on a Workday, but yeah, weekends are banned. That's the day I clean my house and go do stuff. Otherwise I go crazy. I burn out it's it's, uh, even, you know, you can burn out on fun. It's it's
Speaker 1 00:12:32 True. Definitely.
Speaker 2 00:12:34 Definitely. I have, um, I have a Patrion that I do a lot of my experimenting on now. Cause I, I do a daily comic, a diary comic every day for my patrons. And that's really where I'm doing most of my art for fun kind of stuff, even though technically it's for money, but really I'm just experimenting and you know, that's, that's the venue for it while meanwhile, I have these other graphic novels, et cetera, that I'm just, you know, and, and freelance gigs that I'm working hard at and yeah. In their structure. Uh, yeah, I go, I go kind of crazy on Patrion, which is fun.
Speaker 1 00:13:09 If someone wanted to look up your Patrion on after hearing this interview, what is it?
Speaker 2 00:13:13 It's, uh, it's just patrion.com and then my name slash Mari. Naomi.
Speaker 1 00:13:18 Great. Thank you.
Speaker 2 00:13:19 They could go on my website and get links to all these things and see lots of free comics there too, if they want
Speaker 1 00:13:26 Sweet. So to kind of dive back into the comics and kind of that very paired down, very present style, something that really drew me to these comics and made me want to talk to you is how good the balance between surprise or pain that immediately follows something happening, something big happening in your life or something happening near you. And then the realization that comes a while later, like when there's been space for retrospection and distance, and you can really process something that's happened. Is there any kind of necessary cooling period after an event that is true happens in your life and it's a little painful or uncomfortable that you need before you can draw about it, or like, is there any other sort of healing or does art kind of fill in a healing role?
Speaker 2 00:14:15 Uh, I don't really think that art heals, uh, especially old wounds. I think it's actually the opposite, especially with painful memoir. Uh, a lot of things you can can get over and then you're like, oh, maybe I can write about them now because it's not so painful, but really essentially you're re wounding yourself by putting yourself back there. Uh, because you have to, your you're drudging up the memories and you are essentially reliving them for the, I don't know, 40 to a thousand hours that you're sitting there drawing these things that you're just really sitting with them. Uh, I recently started therapy and I'm wondering how that's going to change how my comics, uh, have here because, uh, because a lot of the, the challenge for me in comics is to find out, like, take a memoir, a story from my life and then figure out what the story is, you know, at the beginning, middle and end.
Speaker 2 00:15:09 And, uh, my therapist kind of does that for me when I'm just like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And she's like, well, what you're saying is, and then she gives me like a mission statement for my life, which is amazing. Um, I generally, I didn't really think that you shouldn't, well, each you should write whenever you wanna write and you should draw and make art whenever you want to make it. But what you're going to end up with is going to be vastly different. If you've had the more time you've had to sit on it. And I do believe that most things age like wine, well, actually not all wine is like that, but it'll get better with time because you do have the perspective, but there is something wonderful about reading someone's diary comics, or just someone's angry scree that they just, you know, just figure it out.
Speaker 2 00:16:03 And I feel like sometimes an author not having perspective is just as exciting as them having perspective, because you can feel just like the core, you know, rage or sadness or happiness or whatever. And you, as the reader might actually have perspective on them and say, Hey, you know, you're 25, this is going to pass. Or, or this happened to me or, oh, I can see, you know, this, this dark path you're going down or whatever, or, you know, that, that person's no good for you all sorts of things. Like, I, I think there's value in every kind of art. And generally for me, especially stories like the ones that you see in Dragon's breath are things that I've had time to think about. Um, maybe not the ones towards the end of the book, but a lot of, you know, where I, where I was able to draw out the bigger story versus having it be a story of, oh, this happened, this happened, this happened.
Speaker 2 00:16:57 And maybe some of those, those facts aren't really relevant to the story, but I don't know that yet because I don't have the perspective and see how, you know, how it all ties together or my brain, you know, makes that happen over time. And so it totally depends. I, yeah, my general rule is I like to have time away from it. Um, and when I, when I have mentees, I generally say, well, you know, look, you don't have to rush into this because it's, the story is going to be there as long as you ha you're you're there and it will get better with age. You'll have more perspective and you'll see the story better, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't write about it. Um, you should definitely write about everything and then come back to it later when you're ready to write a bigger story, perhaps if that's what you want to do.
Speaker 2 00:17:43 Although I just, uh, I recently wrote a book it's not published yet where it's very immediate and it's almost like reading a diary. And I, cause I wanted to see what that was like. And I think it turned out really well specifically because it was going against all of my rules that I've been practicing for years and years and years. So I broke my own rules and, you know, which was kind of thrilling for me, but it makes for a different kind of story. Um, so again, I don't think there's any right or wrong way, but they, they do come out with different results. Yeah. Long-winded
Speaker 1 00:18:18 Oh, no, that was great. I loved it. This is kind of an aside, but while you were talking about like therapy and the role of like art in, uh, thinking about something, I guess I could say I was thinking it might be a fun concept for like a comic or a or something to do initially draw or write what the individual like I, or you, for example, think about an event or a series of events and the significance you put in it and the ways it connects to other things and then dry it again, after you've had a therapy session about it, to see like how, how the reframing of an external person and how, whatever you're doing, like CBT, DBT, whatever affects how you conceptualize the event.
Speaker 2 00:19:07 That is actually what people do generally with writers groups. And I D I've had, I've kind of done that without a therapist before. Uh, there's a story specifically in Dragon's breath, uh, that, uh, about herb, who, who, um, passed away, killed himself. And, uh, I had been trying to write that story for over a decade. And, uh, I just recently found a story that I wrote like pretty much the night I came home from the bar, when I found out he was dead and it's, I mean, it's intense and, but it's not, but like I kept trying to rewrite that essay and we write that essay and just wasn't pulling together. And then the, yeah, there was a moment where I'm like, well, what if I make it a comic? And it just pulled together. And I, I mean, that's one of, I think it's one of my favorite comics that I've made just because I was finally able to articulate something that I'd been trying to for so long. But even before I'd been making comics, I'd been writing about the incident again and again and again, trying to work it out in my head.
Speaker 1 00:20:10 Yeah. I think that is definitely an example of something in this collection that stuck with me for days and days after I read it, just thinking about it because it so encapsulates the feeling of something that you can't really turn into a tidy narrative after it happens. It's something where you don't really expect it. And you're not really thinking about ways, a certain thing thing connects and then, um, just kind of mulling over the circumstances. And I just think that, that this book handles that so well, like there's such a temptation when yeah. I love it. Cause there's such a temptation when making stories about one's life or about how the world works when trying to turn things into stories, to understand them, to make the stories overly patch or like draw too many connections where there aren't any, and there are some places in the, um, in the collection where you do draw really fun connections that I would not have expected, like the, um, the bug infestation that lasts longer than the relationship. For example, like there are sometimes really funny parallels and coincidences, but I feel like there's something nice and kind of like anti think piece about like, just writing about the complexity of an experience and kind of the mystery of life in a way, even in the form of mini comics. I think it's actually a great forum for that.
Speaker 2 00:21:29 Oh, thanks. Yeah. I'm blushing. The ring light might be washing me out, but I'm flushing
Speaker 1 00:21:38 Blushing and podcast, but I keep kind of talking about the meat of the stories and how they work kind of intellectually and emotionally. Um, you're very Frank in these comics about how the idealized conception of oneself or specifically in these comics yourself often doesn't match up to what you do in real life or your first instinct. And this is shown from like interactions with vulnerable former friends. This is shown in voting. This is shown in a comic where you're next to a sixth stranger on public transit. And it, I was just wondering, um, how does it feel to share these comics, uh, publicly and like what, what makes you feel driven to, and I'm especially interested in this, in the context of talking a few minutes ago about how it's like, it's not necessarily a healing process. Like even if it's processing, it's not necessarily a healing process per se.
Speaker 2 00:22:34 Well, I think just by nature, I tend to be a TMI person. And the reason that I am like that is because I just really enjoy, uh, connecting with people. And I feel like, and this is not always the case. Sometimes people don't like TMI, but I feel like to get people out of their shell that tends to be, you know, when you, when you give a little of yourself, then people give a little of themselves usually. And you know, in high school, when I figured this out, I would, you know, try to be funny and try to be just self the facing or self deprecating getting, sorry. Yeah, no, you're good.
Speaker 2 00:23:12 And, uh, you know, so I've always kind of used that tactic to try to, it's like the big dogs who get down to the little dogs as level to try to give you, like, not that I'm the big dog, but like, I just don't want to seem like a jerk. I just want, I want to make people feel comfortable because that makes me feel comfortable when they're comfortable and then everyone wins and then you get all the friends and, and I could find out all their secrets and I can tell them all mine. I mean, I just, I just loved that. You know, I love, I love reading. People's intimate thoughts. I love hearing people's secrets. I love telling mine, like, that's just, that's just who I am. And I've always been that way. Uh, and, uh, it, I mean, that's, I feel like that's such the magic of interpersonal relationships is just, you know, sharing and opening up.
Speaker 2 00:23:54 So, I mean, that's, that's really, what's underlying when I wrote my first book kiss and tell, which is all pretty much all embarrassing stories about my love life from, from a young age, until my twenties, uh, I thought I was being really open and vulnerable and whatnot. I was just giving out these secrets, blah here's, here's some really weird stuff that I did. And, and I think I just got a little, I don't know, full of myself as the right word, but I was like, oh, look, how, how open I am? And everyone's like, oh, hi, I don't know how you tell these stories. They're so embarrassing. I'm like, yay. I'm so open. And then I read Cheryl Strayed's dear sugar column on the rumpus. And, and I like, oh no, that's what intimacy is not the stupid, like trying to make people laugh at my bad mistakes.
Speaker 2 00:24:44 Like, that's not intimacy. That's just trying to get to people to like you. I'm like, no, I don't want to be that. I want to be open. I want, you know, I just want just everything. So this collection specifically was inspired by her. Um, at the time she was anonymous, but by her stories, because that's like, that's what I wanted to be. And I thought I was until I read that and I realized, no, I've got a long way to go. So I feel like each story that I wrote mostly on the rumpus, but elsewhere too. And even now, like I was just trying to push myself further and further, like, how far can I go with this? And sometimes it was scary. Sometimes I was admitting things that I'm like, oh, people are going to hate me. Like after I published this, they're going to hate me.
Speaker 2 00:25:27 They're going to think, oh God, you were that person that was fighting above me in that in the department, you know, you're, you're one of those. And I'm like, oh God, well now this big audience I've built. They're all going to turn against me. But every time I would open up like that, like I would just feel so much love back from the community. And, and it just made me realize, okay, I can be myself without having to worry about people hating me. I mean, yeah. And I mean, it's a, it's a great feeling. And I know that's not always the case. People get canceled all the time on the internet. And that could certainly happen to me, especially with my habit of putting my foot in my mouth sometimes. But, um, but I'm willing to take that risk. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:26:06 I think that what you were saying just now really made me think about the difference between like honest humor and uh self-disclosure and then where self-deprecating stuff fits within that. Like, I feel like many of us as young people really lean on self-deprecating or like self judging in that specific way, kind of making little jabs at one's appearance or, um, one's creative work or something like that and something I really, yeah, yeah. It's definitely disarming. It can make you feel a little more comfortable. The other people, like they don't think you're arrogant or whatever, but this book to me felt very, um, rooted in self, like self-examination that was not really like, like Nagin kind of deprecation. It was very like actually thinking about how do I perceive myself versus how do I actually act and kind of like exploring kind of a difference. That's less of a small surface level deprecation pick and more like examining a question that I'm sure a lot of people have, like how does my self perception interact with my behavior and how does it not interact?
Speaker 1 00:27:21 And that's something I really I'm assuming because I, this probably isn't true for everyone, but at least for me, I found these really disarmingly wonderful because it was like, I think that's a really valuable kind of work. I think, especially right now, there's so much fear about, or generally, um, in a creative life about doing or saying the wrong thing by accident or admitting mistakes you've made and haven't fully learned the right solution to yet, but there's such, there's something so comforting about seeing someone you admire or even just someone with a bit more of a public platform, making mistakes, admitting them, learning from them, treating life as something to have with a gross mentality. And so, yeah, I just wanted to point that out because the, like, I think the gap between deprecation and, um, analysis is definitely bridged in all this work
Speaker 2 00:28:17 As a gen X-er I, I was raised to be a self begging person. That's just like the culture that's, you know, that's how we show love for ourselves and others. And it's something that I think it's very tired and I'm tired of it in my self. It still pops up every once in a while. And I'm just, I'm trying to outgrow that because I don't it's I'm over it.
Speaker 1 00:28:41 Yeah. Have you ever found self-deprecation to be inhibiting to your ability to create, or have certain conversations? Because it seems like you have a strong creative drive, regardless of that, at least based on your proliferate, proliferate Asian Olympic prolificness I'm doing my best
Speaker 2 00:29:06 It's it hinders me from promoting, um, or it has, or it hinders me from getting my stuff out there. I mean, I'll put it out there, but like a lot of people have this same issue where that, you know, they just they're like, am I talking about my work too much? Am I talking about myself too much? And, um, yeah, I'm over that took a while. It took a while because you know, now I'm like, well, this is my job before I had day jobs and it wasn't my job. This was my hobby. And I'm like, oh God, I just I'm, you know, I have to constantly talk about this show I'm having, or this book or this comic. And I, it felt horrible. And what's worse is even finding out that people. Yeah. They thought it was horrible to, you know, sometimes I have to do that when you're starting out. And, but what are you going to do? It's part of, part of the gig. And I think more people realize that and if they don't, then they can, you know, go do their own thing. I'm definitely learning as I edge closer to age 50 just to not care what other people think. So that's nice. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:30:14 I also think, as you say that about, um, I listened to a lot of podcasts and interviews with Nicole Georges and I love her. Yeah, she's cool. And, um, there are, are a lot of instances where she is answering advice on her podcast. And a lot of people are very afraid to self-promote and she talks about like a, it is your job, but also be like the people who want you to follow through and the people who are interested in seeing what you're doing, really value, seeing that. And, um, how, when she thinks about someone she cares about, she would want to see them promote their stuff. She would want to see what they're working on. And, um, I try to think about that. I pro I did not phrase that quite nearly as well as she did, but like the, um, just thinking about that as a two-sided point. And like, there is the kind of glut of content on the internet where you'll stumble across someone whose stuff isn't exactly your taste and that would perhaps need to lead to like negative interactions. But the idea there is,
Speaker 2 00:31:20 There's definitely a balance. Um, there, there are people who are told by other people, perhaps their publisher, perhaps people, they want to be their publisher that you need a social media presence and they don't know how to go about that. And then they get online and they're like, oh, okay. So I'm going to, I'm going to get a Twitter and then I'm just gonna promote, promote, promote, and that's all I'm going to do. And yeah, no one wants that. No one wants to follow that. You know, there it's like going to a party and someone's like my book, my book, my book. And yeah, you want to hear about their book once you like them. But
Speaker 2 00:31:53 So the, you know, there's, there's definitely a balance. And, um, and I think it's important to just spread the gospel of like, look, you know, you're at a party, talk to other people, inter interact with other people. Don't send them private messages. Oh, you know, follow me for dah, dah, dah, or don't ask people to follow you, like, make them interested in you. And then, you know, once they are interested, then throw out like, oh, by the way, here's what I'm doing, because they're already interested. But you know, when you, when you just go there, it's just like a Jack hammer of self-promotion for some people. But that's just because they don't know how to use the platform. They're not bad people, you know, that's just what they do. And, um, yeah, it takes, it takes a lot of getting used to figuring out how to use the different social media platforms. And there's always a new one, you know, hopefully there'll be even more new ones. Uh, But there's, you know, there's definitely, you know, sometimes I remember in my twenties, there'd always be like the 25 year old guy who was just like promoting his, his party. And all he would talk about is like the promoting his party for winning his party. I'm like, who are you under there? Like,
Speaker 2 00:33:03 So there's a balance.
Speaker 1 00:33:05 Yeah. Yeah. Um, on the topic of kind of connecting online and networking with other people's creations and such for anyone who doesn't know, um, Marie has created databases and resources that can help you find, um, underrepresented or marginalized creators. Like there's a queer comics database, there's a people of color comics database. And I just wanted to ask you, Marie, how do those resources intertwined with your own creative work beyond just pertaining to your own identities?
Speaker 2 00:33:43 So I have the cartoonist of color, the queer cartoonists and the disabled cartoonists. Um, I'm not at this time a disabled cartoonist, but I thought that's something that I wanted to add to the databases because I feel like there should be one, um, I am queer and I'm a cartoons of color, but I feel like I'm at the point of my career where I don't kind of, I don't really need the help that I'm giving others through the databases. Like I'm in the databases, two of them, but they're not really, for me, I feel like they're kind of my community service a little bit like I've, um, I think of all the things that I would have, you know, I mean, I, in the nineties, it really sucked to be a not white male person who makes comics. And, uh, there was, I felt like there was a lot of gatekeeping whether real or perceived, but either way, it's still stopped people who were not in that group. And, uh, I don't know, I saw an opportunity to help others and I just, you know, why not?
Speaker 1 00:34:52 Yeah, that's really neat. And especially since anytime, at least it appears as such any, it feels like any time, um, an industry starts to open up outside white men, just there's this whole slew of promotion of white women. And it's like, just, it's nice to see the variety thrown in and to see the, uh, interactions with specific identities and, and acknowledging kind of the intersections available there in, um, just cause it can be so easy to just promote people who already have a lot of the resources that white men have. And just to see, um, does either variety, uh, available in those is really great,
Speaker 2 00:35:36 But I have a problem. White men, I have some white male
Speaker 1 00:35:39 Friends. They're wonderful. No, it's, it's uh, yeah, it's about sharing. It's about letting people do what they want to do.
Speaker 2 00:35:49 That's true. I mean, just even as a reader, you know, this is my selfish side. I want to see more diverse stories because as I said, connecting and learning about new things is one of the great things about reading. And, um, just to see these same old, I'm not going to describe a story, but there's a, there's a lot of the same story out there, uh, especially in comics where it's maybe not, um, get there's a lot of the same story out there. So I want to see more. And I like, I love personal auto bio, especially these stories, but like all the stories that I just, I want to see more, and this is my way of making it happen. I mean, there's, yeah. I feel like I'm in a really privileged, privileged situation where, you know, I have a little bit of power, so I'm like, okay, well, how can I distribute this so that other people could have this power to like, it feels great. There's I mean, cause this is the point really. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:36:41 Yeah, absolutely. That's great.
Speaker 2 00:36:44 Unless I wanted to wreck the environment. That's another thing I could do with my power. Just kidding.
Speaker 1 00:36:51 I think plenty of people already love doing that with their power. So
Speaker 2 00:36:56 I won't bring up NF teas right now.
Speaker 1 00:37:00 LOL. I just, what the world needs is just another podcast talking about NFPS and that's why we're, that's why we're here today.
Speaker 2 00:37:13 Uh, I'm really, I'm really lucky that I don't connect with that many people who are into that. Like I, I had one friend who's not even he's on an artist or anything. And he's like, have you thought about doing NFTs? Like, and no. And then I had a, um, a, um, w what's the nice way of putting this very interesting person come up to me when I was doing a dedication for my mural recently, who came up to me and was like, have you thought of making this into an NFT? And I feel like, have you thought about making this into an NFT as a new, have you thought about Jesus or have you met Jesus?
Speaker 1 00:37:51 So, uh, I know the answer to this is not NFTs. Is there, so you, you were mentioning earlier that you recently wrote a collection. What are you working on right now? Um,
Speaker 2 00:38:03 A number of things I just finished a comic for a children's magazine called kazoo. That'll be out next year. Um, I've got a couple of other comics things in the mix. Uh, I'm not allowed to talk to about a bunch of stuff, but, um, I'm just going to say that I have two books that I've finished, that I've not, are not in print yet. And I have one book that's coming out next next month, which is, um, it's a gag collection of sexy fruits and vegetables getting it on. And it's called dirty produce the New York for a daily shouts, did a feature about it. I, if you go to my Twitter, I have it as my pin post. So you can see a little excerpt of that there, you know, there there's, it's fun, it's silly. And I'm thinking, wow, I've done all these comments about feelings for so long. It's nice to do sexy fruits and, and you know, maybe that'll be my legacy. That's fine,
Speaker 1 00:39:01 Balanced diet, really.
Speaker 2 00:39:04 You need your fiber. And then I have other things in the mix where I'm trying to sell pitches and trying to make books and stuff lately. I've been in the brainstorming phase for a couple of books. And I start to say, that's such an exciting time because, you know, that's, when you're thinking this could be it, this could be the one that, that lets me tell my husband, he can quit his day job, but you know, obviously that's never going to happen, but that's the hope it's not the dirty produce and you know, some young adult book or something, but it is very exciting coming up with these, these scenarios and, and especially I'm reading fiction again too, or playing with fiction where I'm just dreaming up things and, and it's just wonderful letting your imagination go. And, uh, my, at my therapist appointment not to bring up my therapist too much, but oh my God, I love therapy.
Speaker 2 00:39:55 I'm so excited. Why did I waste so long to get therapy? My therapist pointed out that, uh, that this, this, uh, what do you call it? Feature of my brain that lets me just run free and think of all these new, wonderful scenarios for these characters that don't exist, but kind of do, uh, is the same mechanism in my brain that makes me catastrophize about like stupid things that aren't even going to happen. Like I see some horrible thing in the news about something happening to a dog or something. And I'm like, oh no, what w what if that was my dog? And my I'm like, thanks brain. That's really helpful. Like, we're doing that. And she was like, you realize that the that's, those are both your imagination. Like, oh yeah, that is the same thing. And she's like, you know, you could always like, take that catastrophe, CATA, whatever. I can't pronounce it. But instead of thinking of horrible things that could happen, maybe you can train your brain to think of nice things that happen. And of course, I had to joke and say, well, you know, sad stories sell, which is only a joke. Having stories are good too. But, um, I was kind of blown away like, oh yeah, that is like, the same brain is doing both of those things and letting itself be free with thoughts. And it's something that's definitely been on my mind lately, as I brainstorm Pappy things.
Speaker 1 00:41:16 It's so nice to think about, um, like imagination and elasticity as the core of both creativity and anxiety. Cause so often it feels like those things are so opposite and so fighting against each other.
Speaker 2 00:41:30 Absolutely. Cause anxiety makes me not be able to do anything like, you know, productive, but yeah, it is the same thing. It's just a matter of channeling blowing my mind. Wonderful.
Speaker 1 00:41:42 Yeah. Oh, that's so cool. I'm very excited to see what you draw with that in mind.
Speaker 2 00:41:49 Yeah. I hopefully, I, I, my, my, my comics won't get boring now that I have therapy.
Speaker 1 00:41:57 We'll see, oh, your happiness, your happiness will sell your hot fruit will sell.
Speaker 2 00:42:03 You know, they, they, this is the first work I think that has come directly from a happy place. Is the, is the sexy fruit. Because honestly, every single one that I, I think that there's like almost a hundred of them in the book and every, every single page was just me like giggling the whole time. So hopefully that'll make people the readers giggle too. Who knows. It's fine. If it's just me,
Speaker 1 00:42:26 That's such a nice creative process to think about just every page, a new laugh. Cool. Well, it's been so nice to interview you for anyone partway through. This has been Marie Naomi talking to us about Dragon's breath, her collection that came out a couple of years ago. Thank you so much, Mary. It's been really great to have you.
Speaker 2 00:42:50 Thank you. This was fun. Thanks for talking about my book.
Speaker 1 00:42:53 Thank you. It was great.
