Speaker 0 00:00 KPI.
Speaker 1 00:03 <inaudible>
Speaker 2 00:26 you are listening to right on radio on cafe 90.3 FM and streaming live on the web at <inaudible> dot org I'm Josh Weber and Mandy Harvey. Tonight on right on radio. Josh talks with Dr. Richard Haas about his new book the world. A brief introduction. The world isn't designed to provide readers of any agent experience with the essential background in building blocks. They need to make sense of this. It's complicated and interconnected world. Dr Haas is president of the council on foreign relations and experienced diplomat and policy maker. His has served as the senior middle East advisor to president George H w Bush and as director of the policy planning staff under secretary of state. Colin Powell is old. The last part of our show, Andy will be talking with M S partners. She is a cartoonist based out of Minneapolis, Minnesota. She's the author of the claim to graphic memoir, Tinder. Ella, a fearless autobiographical account of a young woman's difficult relationship. All this and more so stay tuned to write on radio
Speaker 1 01:32 <inaudible>.
Speaker 2 01:38 I am here talking to Dr. Richard Haas about his new book, the world of brief introduction. He's a veteran diplomats, a prominent voice on American foreign policy and an established leader,
Speaker 3 01:48 nonprofit institutions. He is in his 17th year as president of the council on foreign relations and independent, nonpartisan membership organization, think tank publisher and educational institution. The world focuses on ideas, issues and institutions essential for a basic understanding of the world. Welcome to right on radio. Dr Haas, thanks so much for having me. So your book, it covers a lot of ground. There's a history of global politics. You examine six distinct regions in the world and their political makeup you size, the global challenges and the conditions of living in the global era. Did you have an outline for the structure of this book before it began or did it become clear what you want to say as you began writing?
Speaker 4 02:32 If you want the honest answer, it's no, uh, this was actually a very different kind of book for me to write and it took a lot of laps walking around central park. My step count increased dramatically. Uh, cause when you, when you approach a subject that's so vast and essentially almost anything is potentially included to make it manageable though to be able to say shrink, to cut it down to size. And the one of the hardest, there are two challenges in this book. One was to decide what to put in or another way to put it, what to leave out. And the other was how to make it accessible for someone who didn't have a background in these issues to make it interesting, accessible. But the first order challenge was what to include. And that's where I did a lot of walking and a lot of thinking and basically came up with the structure of a focus initially on history, then on the regions of the world. Then on the 10 global issues that I thought would define in particular this year, the 21st century. And then at the end is what the idea is and about how the world worked that I thought people needed to know.
Speaker 3 03:39 You preface this book, um, you preface this book with an anecdote about fishing with your friend's nephew who was a computer science major at Stanford. You question him about his knowledge of history, economics and politics, and discovered he knew very little about his own country in the world. Is this a common experience for you to encounter people in the United States who don't really know how the world operates outside the us border or
Speaker 4 04:02 so my concern is that most Americans simply don't have the kind of background or foundation choose what would you will to make informed choices, uh, to essentially protect their own interests, viewed as citizens or as individuals. And that's why I left this.
Speaker 3 04:18 Do you think other countries in the world, uh, countries in the U S and the EU, for example, they're more globally literate in your opinion?
Speaker 4 04:27 They are based on my experience, obviously not uniformly and still not never enough, but the answer is yes. I think it's because of many cases in other countries they haven't been so dominant. And I think Americans grew up in a two things. One. We've been the most powerful country in the world for the last 70 75 years. And with that, that does not come off and the necessary degree of curiosity or or humility. We also have a trip, you know, we're a continental country. We have a strong tradition of isolationism from the world. It's never far below the surface. So in my experience, Americans important again because we're so often at the center of things, don't learn about the rest of the world, whereas much of the rest of the world, because they are not at the center of things because they have to worry about the United States because whatever it is we do or don't do has such an impact on them. In my experience, others know much more about us in the world than we know about them.
Speaker 3 05:23 You chose to begin, um, the essential history of the modern international era and your book in the 17th century. Why is this period considered the beginning of modern international relations?
Speaker 4 05:36 The reason I started to chose that, and it wasn't random, is I had, I wanted to go back and I thought hard about where did the kind of world we live in today have its roots. And it really is then that's when the bottom system independent countries came into being. Uh, before that there was really a hodgepodge of all sorts of principalities and, and empires. But this was the rise of the modern state or country system. So here we are three and a half, four centuries later, and this world is recognizable. Uh, we still have it now we have over 190 countries, but this is still a world dominated by, by independent countries. There were borders. And the whole idea is that borders ought not to be changed by military force. They want to be respected. Well, those were the rules that were created then. Obviously a lot of history is about how those rules were. We're not a juror, but my point is simply that if you want to understand the origins of this world, you pretty much need to go back to them.
Speaker 3 06:35 Yeah. And this leads into a discussion about the 30 years war in like you just said, um, in this period it replaced large empires and principalities with governance composed of independent countries. And this was seen as a huge innovation. And with this change you saw a greater degree of stability and peace, but there's, um, inherent risks that come with this kind of stuff as well. Correct?
Speaker 4 06:57 Well, sure. I mean you look at what was set up the world and you have this world of sovereign States. Well, there's risks because sovereign States can behave badly beyond their borders. And the 20th century has a lot of that. And then also one of the problems is, and it's one where we're wrestling, like a sovereign States can behave really badly within their borders. And what happens then? She goes, you have a world that's based upon respectful borders, respects the sovereignty. What do you do when bad things happen inside countries? For example, genocides is one, one the case we're living with now, a pan, a disease breaks out in China. China doesn't act in a responsible way. What? Then on nine 11 what we learned was a bunch of guys in remote parts of Afghanistan were training and then got on a plane and killed 3000 people in the United States, one one a morning.
Speaker 4 07:49 So what we're learning is on one hand, we need a world where we're sovereignty and borders are respected. That was the great innovation of the early 17th century. We don't want to go back to what existed before. On the other hand, what we're learning is that if their respect for sovereignty is absolute terrible stuff can go on inside a country that could affect us. Take one more example. Brazil, Brazil now is systematically destroying the Amazon rain forest. This will have tremendous implications for the pace and scope of global climate change. So you can't say, well, it's Brazil's business to do it at once with the Amazon because it's inside Brazilian territory. Most of it. Yeah. But the response needs to be, well, even though most of it falls within its territory, the consequences do not. They spill out all over the world. So how do we deal with this tension? And I would say that I was simply, to me one of the most difficult, interesting and important questions right now that people such as myself in this field or are struggling with.
Speaker 3 08:51 I want to quickly take a turn back to a discussion on the history here. First of a global order of falling world war one, uh, we saw this establishment Felipe nations, it was a collective Alliance amongst nations to peacefully resolve disputes that might arise. What led to the failure of the league for our listener audience who don't know much about this?
Speaker 4 09:12 Sure. At league of nations, which was supposed to after the war to end all Wars, world war one, the league of nations was going to be the international body that was going to help prevent future Wars. But the problem was it couldn't do that. It was a needed unanimity to act and more important, there was no consensus. So the major powers of the day didn't agree and essentially the league fell apart when they couldn't agree or they weren't prepared to act. Essentially. They didn't like something happening, but they weren't prepared to do anything about it. So it, it ultimately died a death of a, a lack of consensus and a lack of a will. And the rest, again, as they say, is history of the lead up to world war two. And it's not so much that the league was, uh, the cause of world war two, but it's failure had in it many of the roots, uh, world war II.
Speaker 4 10:05 And when we, when the United nations was created after world war two, the idea was to create something stronger. And I would say it is slightly stronger but not fundamentally strong. And it's still to me shows the limits of these international ordinance or these international institutions. Uh, they, they, they're still not, I'm not saying they should be, but I'm simply saying that they're there. They're not strong enough to make a decisive difference. They ultimately, what matters in the world is what the most powerful countries, uh, agree on and what they're prepared to do. If they agree what to prepare to do, if they disagree in places like the United nations or even the world health organization tend to be more reflections of the state of major power politics than, than anything. Anything more than that.
Speaker 3 10:52 It's in the post cold war era. There has been a revival of friction and rivalries between major powers. Um, I was reading this and I was wondering what, what should be our primary concern, the United States? Should we be worried about a possible cold war between China, nine States, cyberspace regulation and inability to take on global challenges as international community? Or is it even possible they prioritize a single concern?
Speaker 4 11:18 Again, it's a big debate. I seem to be in the middle of it. Uh, I think there are those who would say that the principle focus of American foreign policy should be a rising China, uh, and, and the challenge that China poses and they would, they would have that I disagree for, for three reasons. I would say that one, uh, I don't think China's aims are unlimited or in every area and consistent with our, uh, second of all, I think China has many internal problems that will limit some of its rise. And thirdly, even if I'm wrong and we succeed at China, even if I'm on the China is worse than I'm suggesting, but we succeed at pushing back against it. That still isn't going to help us cope with pandemics or climate change or terrorism or any number of other challenges to proliferation of weapons of mass destruction.
Speaker 4 12:07 So I think there's an element of great power competition. I understand it. We, we need to be alert to it. We need to push back when China or Russia encroaches upon base what we do, what we think are our core interests or the basic rules. But that can't be the central focus of American foreign policy in this century. I would argue that we need a larger foreign policy. And again, I would say the priority ought to be dealing with the, these global issues that I think are far more likely to, to shape history. And then the, then the behavior of China.
Speaker 3 12:39 I agree. I did like though later on you, you, I'm going to quote you here. You taught how the internet is a huge concern as well. How governing the internet promises to be one of the century's greatest, most important challenges. Because right now those favorite established rules are losing out to fast changing technologies that unlike nuclear weapons are increasingly available to the many and not just the few.
Speaker 4 13:02 Yeah. It has the virtue of being true that cyberspace is kinda like the American wild West. There's a lots of people with guns, but there's very few laws and not enough sheriffs. So it's essentially undisciplined. And again, unlike nuclear weapons right now there's nine countries with nuclear weapons. Uh, there's, you know what, a seven and a half, 8 billion telephones out there in circulation. And I don't know how many people with access to a desktop computers and how many people are capable of doing serious things on them. But this is, it's a world of proliferation of decentralized technology. And depending on how it's used, cyber weapons can be weapons of mass destruction. Imagine a cyber weapon that's done used to dismantle the functioning of American nuclear sites or to deal with the American financial sector. So you've got Trump or Haas, you know, the utilities of hospitals. So cyber to me is an incredible threat. It's central to everything we do now in the modern world and the degree to which it is essentially unregulated. It's a kind of international freefall that gives me real pause.
Speaker 3 14:10 There's a great quote in your chapter on the middle East where you described international relations as more than statecraft and national interests. You say it is also about ideas and ideals and what motivates people. Is this something you find that foreign leaders lack, that uh, this, uh, inability to recognize people's ideas and motivations?
Speaker 4 14:32 Interesting question. I think some are better than others. You know, a little bit of man does not live by bread alone. I think most outsiders think that foreign policy is largely motivated by economic considerations in the narrow sense. And actually under Mr. Trump, they may be bending. All the presidents I worked for, uh, they were not, and people actually were moved by human suffering or they were moved by principles about democracy or moved by concerns about security and order much more. So I was an advisor to George Bush, the father at the white house. And when we were involved, when I was involved with him and responding to the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, a lot of people on various sides of the political spectrum said we were motivated by oil. And, uh, I said, you don't even begin to understand. I've never been in a meeting where anyone has talked about gaining control of oil from us, about American, uh, company or shareholder. And we were concerned about the security of oil supplies, but only so the world could continue to function. Uh, no foreign policy has much more of a big ideas in my experience than it is about these, these now are commercial concerns
Speaker 3 15:45 while reading your chapter global health. Um, I couldn't help her be reminded of, there's an article Dr. Henry Kissinger just wrote, um, I think it was last month in a wall street journal called the coronavirus. Will forever alter the world order. And he talks about how now the moment we had addressed the necessities of the moment and we must ultimately be coupled with a collective or global collaborative vision and program given the Cohen 19 pandemic, uh, do you think, is that the priority for all countries now? Do you think it's more like we'll see more nations operating in tandem over our collaborative vision and program like, um, dr Kissinger wishes?
Speaker 4 16:20 Well, it's a wish. Uh, I just don't see evidence of it, but clearly I would like that to be the case. Anytime there's a great crisis, whether this or nine 11 or what have you hope that people draw the lessons. And in this case they'd say we need greater international cooperation collaboration. So we're prepared to either to prevent the next such challenge or deal with it more efficiently if it, when it happens. I just don't see a lot of signs of it. I, we'll say we'll see what other, we're looking come together to improve the, the machinery of global health, the world health organization, or create some other new organization. We'll see if this spurs any global effort to deal with climate change or anything else. Uh, I'm skeptical. I'd love to have the skepticism proven wrong. I, I'm worried that a lot of countries are going to turn inward and they're going to say we don't have the time or the money or the energy to focus on international collaboration. We've got to get our own people back to work. We've got to keep our own people say. So even though this is a crisis that brought to underscore the need for a global foreign policy, I'm afraid that many countries, including this one may become at least for a while more inward looking, uh, where all of our bandwidth is, is, is, is absorbed by dealing with the domestic aspect of, of this challenge.
Speaker 3 17:35 You raise a, an interesting complication for trade and investment on the global market. I didn't realize this, but from your, from your read, from reading, um, I found out that one third of global exports are accounted for by the importing of foreign goods of raw materials or in that production process, right? This phenomena is referred to as the global supply chain. This makes it very difficult to measure exports and imports. When you have the items come from one single country, does having a global supply chain is that effective in bolstering alliances with different countries?
Speaker 4 18:06 It can be a cause wanted. So that mutual dependency, uh, builds relationships and to the extent countries are dependent, it makes them think twice before they upset the Apple cart. I think I wanted the results of this crisis is going to be the weekend. Global supply chains at least selectively were more countries including this one are going to say we can never again be in a position where we're so dependent upon imports. For example, significant percentages of uh, aspirin aspirins or products like, uh, Tylenol come from India or China and some prescription drugs come from there as well. Certain types of high technologies come from around the world. So I can imagine that there'll be a big move of foot in this country to make ourselves less vulnerable. And that could either mean diversification of foreign supplies, but it probably will also mean greater domestic production and stockpiling of items deemed critical. So my sense is we're actually going to reduce our, some of our dependence on on long supply chains.
Speaker 3 19:08 You say in the book, the bedrock of world order is the respect of sovereignty for countries that they have with each other and what our country has acknowledged and having a national government and so on and are ongoing debates and recent years. You've already touched on this discussion on when's appropriate to intervene in the internal affairs of other countries by purveying genocide. This concern though is more complicated than it appears. I was wondering, you talk about why this is such a contested issue amongst different people when it's appropriate to intervene.
Speaker 4 19:36 Sure. Well, it's a, it's a really big and difficult question. It's, it's such a tough issue because on one hand sovereignty is good. When it came along, it was a great organizing principle and it was a great way of helping to keep peace in order in world essentially a live and let live system. We won't invade you if you don't update us. Uh, so I understand that. And the great Wars came about when that principle was ignored. The problem now is that in a global world, so much of what goes on inside a sovereign country, inside its borders, it's not, it's business alone. So way beyond issues of genocide. But we can talk about things that are done to accelerate climate change, things that are done to allow diseases to break out, harboring terrorists, building weapons systems that can reach any, every corner of the globe.
Speaker 4 20:22 So the question is, how are we supposed to, how are we able to maintain what's good about Jonathan? At the same time, we limit what is bad about sovereignty and how do we, what is it we're prepared to sign up to it? Because others will say, this applies to you buddy. It's not just something you apply to everybody else. This is a tough, tough issue and big tradeoffs, uh, complicated. And we're just beginning to think our do this. I think, I think in some ways this is one of the areas where people in my business need to be more creative and need to move things along. But we come up against the reality of sovereignty, of nationalism. Uh, and this is a president who clearly believes in that talks about America first. On the other hand, we are not immune from the effects of what goes on inside of other countries and squaring that circle. How do you, again, how do you preserve what's good about sovereignty but limit what's bad about where you draw those lines? Because at some point you've got to go down from 36,000 feet to sea level and get specific. How do you do just that in a way where we're prepared not simply to demand of others but to accept ourselves? That is a tough, tough, important question. So it's easier to raise the question right now than it is to in some ways to answer it.
Speaker 3 21:39 I think my shortest and probably most important question I'm gonna ask you here is why does world order of matter as much as it does? We've been talking a lot about this, but why should we care?
Speaker 4 21:50 Well, my favorite expression for world order is it's oxygen. It's the basics. Essentially. If the world is at war or this turmoil in the world, pandemics, what have you, you can't get anything done. You can't cross the street to go shopping. You can't, uh, go to work. You can't go to schools. Your life is directly and indirectly threatened. Your livelihood is directly and indirectly threatened. Well, daughter is all about the conditions, uh, where there's a balance out there on which, uh, there's, there's more peace than there is a conflict. There's rules that are being observed to allow trade and investment to go on it. Countries agree about what they will or won't do in terms of involvement in one another's, uh, issues. So world order is, to me, it's kind of like the architecture of the world and we're all, the order is robust, where it's strong, where forces of order, integration and created enforces of disorder.
Speaker 4 22:48 Then a lot of good things can go on things that we normally would take for granted. But when world order is upset, either by conflict, a civil war, a war between countries are now by a pandemic or increasingly by climate change and suddenly we land, we can't take anything for granted. We can't assume anything that so much of what we think of as normal, it gets interrupted. And that's why world order is so basic. It is in some ways the, the fundamental measure of the situation in the world and the trends in the world. And so when world, when the, when the situation is bad or the trends are pointing in the wrong direction, then that is a, that is a, by definition, a bad, bad situation.
Speaker 3 23:29 And my last question for you, dr Haas, um, what is your advice to younger people who want to, who want to get involved and have an interest in pursuing a career in international relations? So what do you tell them
Speaker 4 23:41 besides reading this book? Uh, of course, sorry. Couldn't resist. Uh, the look, first of all I'd say it's so interesting. Some of the things we're talking about I think are inherently interesting. So I would encourage them to read. Uh, my, my first love is always history or biography. I would make a point of reading a major daily newspaper, the New York times, the wall street journal, the financial times, the Washington post that has international coverage or listened to a serious podcast, read the economist, read the magazine, my organization publishes foreign affairs and essentially get, get, get informed, study it a little bit if you're still in school. And then think about that as a career. I'm going to look into it. The military, the intelligence service, the foreign service, or if you go to work for a business, uh, 80% of the world's economy is outside this country.
Speaker 4 24:34 96% of the world's people are outside this country. So you're going to need to get involved in the world to get knowledgeable about it. Uh, what do you do it as a full time job? I kinda, I think it's great as a full time job and was all sorts of things and um, non government organizations go around the world doing humanitarian work. There's a lot of wonderful career opportunities journalism, but even if your field is his business or something like that, you're going to be much better positioned if you have an appreciation of the relationship between this country and the rest of the world and in both directions. So I would say, uh, figure out and spend some time and get up. Get up to speed on this.
Speaker 3 25:14 We are unfortunately out of time, but you, everyone you've been listening to my conversation with Dr. Richard Haas about his new book, the world, a brief introduction. It is a remarkable and fascinating read. I can recommend it more. Dr. Richard Haas. Thanks so much for being on right on radio once again.
Speaker 4 25:30 Thank you sir. I really, really enjoyed the conversation. And now this,
Speaker 6 25:35 Hey, it's <inaudible> from am drive on cafe. I joined me for the launch of season four of the mini culture podcast. We're going to find out how local artists have adapted to social distancing. We'll hear a house call to mung chef Yee Vang. Plus we're going to share an intimate audio diary. Recorded at home was Haitian dancers, Shannon st juice. And then this is kind of like a punch in the face. There's survival mode, right? Find cafe has been in culture podcast on Spotify, Stitcher, Apple podcasts, and wherever you find your podcasts
Speaker 0 26:08 <inaudible> here's the calendar or
Speaker 7 26:20 custody to the cupboard. With 19 situation, the rain taxi calendar has been either canceled or postponed. Um, now as you know, we have, uh, stopped, um, uh, my brain just stopped working. Uh, we've stopped the stay at home order. So some of these shows are gonna. Uh, some of these stories are to be reopening, so give them a call, uh, at these numbers we're going to give you the phone numbers and give them a call to see if and when they are reopening majors. And Quintin is (612) 822-4611 once part of crime is six one, two eight seven four three, seven, eight five moon palace books is six one, two, four or five four zero four five five. The loft is six one, two, two one five two, five, seven, five. Next chapter books is six five one, two, two five, eight, nine, eight, nine. Eat my words.
Speaker 7 27:24 Bookstore is six five one, two, four, three one seven, five, six. The book house in Dickey town is six one two three three one one four, three zero. The red balloon bookstore is six five one two, two, four eight three two zero. Mayday books is six one, two, three, three, three, four, seven one nine. Birchbark books the six one, two, three, seven, four, four, zero, two, three. We've got uncle Hugo's bookstore is six one, two eight two four, six, three, four, seven and in the same building as uncle Edgar's bookstore. Six one, two, eight two, four, six, three, nine, four. No queen books a six one, two, two, one five two, five, four. Zero. Subtext books for (651) 493-2791 wild rumpus a (612) 920-5005 the James and Mary Lori booksellers is (612) 338-1114 dream Haven books for (612) 823-6161 and the paperback exchange is six one two 99 eight eight zero one again, give them a call and see when they're opening back up again. This has been right on radios, covert 19 bookstore updates. They will stay safe. And now this
Speaker 0 28:59 <inaudible>.
Speaker 7 29:06 I'm Annie Harvey and I'm really excited today to have
Speaker 8 29:09 ms Harkness on the show. A very delightful and talented local graphic novelist. Um, and I believe in M CAD grad. Are you doing? I'm doing really well. Nice to spend a little time outside today feeling, feeling pretty excited to have you on the show. How are you doing?
Speaker 9 29:25 Doing great. Actually went on a run just before this, so I, I was veering in and out of traffic, making sure I was within my, within my bubble. I'm supposed to give everyone
Speaker 8 29:34 well, yeah. Um, my, my roommate's mom made me a mask with little running shoes on it that I were running. Uh, just to be fashion. I'm really excited to have you on today to talk about Tinder Rella uh, your graphic novel that's out now that I really enjoyed and tore through. And just a couple sittings. I think the arts really wonderfully expressive. I think it unfolds a protagonist in a really cool and interesting way. Something that I just want to start off on, especially to provide context for people who maybe haven't read the book yet, are probably going to order it after they hear this. One of the first things that you do in the book is introduce your protagonist, ms Harkness, who's the first person narrator? Would you consider this a work of autobiography or kind of like a looser auto fiction and kind of how did that form, how you chose to tell this story?
Speaker 9 30:22 I did a really autobiographical work. Um, and it's, it's funny as the person who made it, who, you know, made this incredibly cut for my own diaries sort of novel. Um, and when people read it and have no idea that it's even autobio at all. And I guess it's kind of coming from that sort of nineties black and white sort of tradition of auto bio for people who maybe are more familiar with more literary comics to say stuff that isn't necessarily like superheroes or you know, Garfield strips. So, um, I made the book actually is my thesis study right while I was at the Minneapolis college of art and design. So it's about 120 pages of me, you know, being a young 20 something, just kind of figuring everything out. So
Speaker 8 31:09 I think that I like probably many other listeners right now I'm drooling at the idea of having my thesis published. I also had a creative major. Another thing kind of probably related to that sort of Genesis story is one of my favorite things about this book was how perfectly the Minneapolis of it is drawn. Like even details from the snow emergency route signs to like the very specific like big boxy duplexes and Whittier people's kind of scrubby, uh, yards and kind of the brownstone apartment complexes that people see around em CAD. Did you dry your locations in person or did you tend to use reference photos or just think about them and did you feel the background was a part of the story or kind of just a backdrop for the story?
Speaker 9 31:58 I mean, it's definitely a big part of me coming up in my early twenties. I've lived in the Metro here for about 10 years to some extent. Like I totally want to own the fact that I'm here and these are the stories that I have here. I'm not like some, uh, some big wig on one of the coasts that's trying to work for a, a Nickelodeon show or something like that. So, um, I'm, I'm doing even a comic right now for an anthology where I'm, I'm trying to find this really good balance of how to be specific but not be super photo realistic and kind of just figuring out how, you know, my little cartoony character fits into the world. Um, but I'm finding myself referencing a lot of, uh, photos I've been taking. Uh, just, you know, of a lot of the construction that's going on around my house and Whittier by the Mia.
Speaker 9 32:44 Um, and you know, just like the areas of downtown that, I mean, it's creepy as it is right now, just that a lot of places are pretty vacant, so you can get really good reference photos where you're not trying to necessarily edit out people, but, uh, you know, those little bits that are very distinctly Minneapolis or you know, those, those snow emergency sciences, very specific, sort of like cater a little street tags and things like that, and just making sure the trees are, you know, the right kind of shapes. So, um, I do try to take a good amount of reference photos, but then, you know, when I'm kind of putting the finishing touches on things, it's more trying to go from memory and not, not be relying too heavily on a photograph to make it work.
Speaker 8 33:27 Yeah. Well I absolutely felt that in the book and think that got executed very well. Yeah, I really loved the way that the settings both take on a tone of their own but also feel so true to what's really there. Um, speaking of such your book, another thing I love about it is it exhibits such a large artistic range. There were some really detailed and realistic drawings in there, but also some more cartoonish and silly images for anyone who needs more incentive to check out this book. There are some parts that I found really funny, like there are a bunch of fish in the sea spouting pickup lines, fishing on Hennepin Avenue. How did you choose the style and tone for different ideas or moments within this story?
Speaker 9 34:13 Oh, it's tough. Um, I feel like a lot of the energy of the book is definitely like, like me being this college grad being like, I have all these opinions and I have a lot to say and not maybe having a perfect vocabulary and a perfect, uh, sort of realm of reference and in cartooning to pull it off. Exactly. But I'm glad you associated well with it. Um, I, uh, I feel like a lot of, of what I want to, you know, what I want to do in my early career at least, you know, just anyone who's trying to figure out how to draw and tell stories is just, you know, like what's your style? Like what level of realism or per Tunis are you sort of reaching for? And I think maybe that time that I was making that book and to some extent now like I, I think I get a lot of enjoyment out of having like a really cartoony little figure maybe in like a big wide realistic world and then maybe kind of changing, you know, the shape of the head, the, the relative detail of the face when you've got like maybe a more serious scene or just something that is more specific to your own experience.
Speaker 9 35:15 Because you know, without getting too into the nitty gritty of all the sort of Scott the cloud, how, how comics are made, um, mumbo jumbo usually kind of the rule is if you have like a really simplified character, you're kind of talking about a more widely understood experience where you know, the person reading it can kind of put themselves in it. Right? So there's, there's a few scenes in the book where I usually, when I'm pitching this and describing it to people, it's like I got like a, a really funny burrito is like a really serious part right in the center, frozen in there. It's like I kind of, I don't spoil it, I kind of leave it up for surprise, but just with all the different themes and all the different things that are going on, it's not like I'm telling just a funny story or just a serious story, but rather, you know, that's something that's an, you know, informed by a lot of different things. So I feel like when I'm, you know, as I'm making more work and I have my second book that'll be coming out later this fall, that's sort of like a functional SQL that Cinderella things are a little bit more nailed down. But like all the energy and all the, all the good stuff is still there
Speaker 8 36:19 as you were speaking. But also as I was reading this book, the word that just came to mind for me was range. Like you can be very humorous or very somber or you can be very detailed or very purely expressive and for lack of a better word, quite cartoony, but kind of getting right into the meat of things in terms of the epicenter of the burrito, the spicy center to me as a reader, this really felt like a book about someone whose effort, whether conscious or unconscious to be less vulnerable, is deep rooted within her psyche and often ends up kind of backfiring leaving her with some excess emotions. And I was just wondering if as a creator, does this story feel that way to you from your side? How does it play out in terms of vulnerability and personal intention around emotions?
Speaker 9 37:08 You know, as, as we as people get older, you know, we're able to sort of look back on things obviously and sort of draw conclusions or, or maybe connect the dots a little bit as far as behavior goes and, and choices that we as individuals make. And I think as somebody who is a work is pretty much directly driven right out of their life, it's, it's entertaining to be able to pull the strings together for comedic effect and be like, I'm going to just going to destroy my own little domino tower here of, uh, you know, you try and be vulnerable with somebody that maybe isn't gonna reciprocate those feelings or you try to be open with somebody that clearly you're shouldn't be oversharing with and it can be pretty painful, you know? And as we've all experienced, you know, just putting ourselves out there in a way that, uh, maybe other people aren't ready for, you know, it's, it's fun and maybe to some extent therapeutic to kind of put it out there as sort of like a comedy moment or just, you know, for other people to relate to in the way of like, this is life.
Speaker 9 38:08 This is disappointing. There's, there's certainly moments where in the book, the character, me, myself, however I want to say it, you know, almost hints that kind of figuring something out or getting ahead or making some connection. That's the maybe a little bit deeper than just kind of the frantic energy of being in your early twenties and just running around, um, and maybe getting it but not quite getting there. So, um, it's, it's part of this ongoing story that I'm kind of working with and, and you know, just just like in life, you know, we have these things happen to us or we have these moments where there should be an epiphany here, but then you don't get to it and then it's, you know, it can be really exhausting watching the character or another person, you know, just running around in circles, you know, creating dusts. So,
Speaker 8 38:55 yeah, I think that's extremely eloquent and true for my experience as a 20 something I'm doing my best not to spoil anything for folks who haven't finished the book yet. Coming up on the end of the book, kind of as you were describing a moment ago, I felt like, um, narrator ms was on the precipice of a big realization, but then the ending of the book felt more like a continuation than a conclusion. So how did you decide to make that decision on where and how to end for this particular volume? Cause I know, I know you hinted at SQL.
Speaker 9 39:28 I think, uh, it's kind of more fun to kind of play with how things can harmonize, um, than necessarily kind of neatly be folded up in a little package. Um, it's obviously a great device if you maybe don't know how to finish a story. You, if you're like, all right, the book is going to be this long and I have this long to do it, which wasn't necessarily what I did. But, um, I think, uh, from someone who's doing an auto bio work, it's good to kind of give yourself a rules to play with. Um, so you don't just run around pretending you're a hero or, um, making kind of whiny, miserable, uh, comics about how you're sad and the world against you and things like that. Things that have been done to death. But, um, it's kind of just like a Frank expression of that amount of time in my life.
Speaker 9 40:17 You know, you think about just like a year or so, um, when maybe you're a little bit of a winery individual who isn't super concerned about our own safety or, or you know, what other people think. Um, so I'll walk in, happen in that amount of time when you're, you know, a teenager, young, younger person. So it leaves it open ended, it leaves, it leaves it say on a comment instead of a period and, and again, just kind of mirrors, mirrors life and that you can go through a lot of things and, and maybe not get to the conclusion that's actually gonna make some sort of reaction happen in your life the way that might lead to a better ending.
Speaker 8 40:55 Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. A lot of the book is about more dating relationships, whether they're physical or romantic or both. And your protagonist is clearly dealing with a bunch of internal stressors and trauma. I kind of want to take a moment to look at her relationship with other people in the book that she's not necessarily going out with. So she's got her stressors, she's got her past traumas that are beginning to open up. And, um, in addition to being open from what I could see open and interested in a certain degree of chaos in her dating life. Um, she also has what seems like healthy, positive, close relationships with brother and her roommate who kind of seemed to be of a mellower disposition. So I was wondering if you could tell me a little more about your process for the comic character. Ms has relationships with her non romantic confidence and uh, where you kind of think that divide plays in.
Speaker 9 41:49 I mean, just because those are actual real people. I get to do the sort of cornball shout out right now, but my sibling and my, uh, my good friend Nicki, um, well we're all still good buds. Um, so, so I mean, for me as an individual can kind of talk just readily about my own experiences. I mean, this sort of chaotic character can exist without those people that are sort of rooting them to this planet. Um, and you know, we all have those people that, that ground us hopefully, um, lest we fall out in the orbit. But I think, you know, just from a narrative perspective on just said, this is a story about somebody who is kind of a cartoon character in the way that they're living their life and, um, is entertaining but maybe not always realistic. I mean, those, those are the characters that route your story down there, the little paperweights on the canvas tent so it doesn't blow away. Um, and you know, kind of being there in place of the reader being like, what's going on? What are you doing it yourself. So, um, those, those sorts of characters just, you know, in life and in, in books and reading, um, they're gonna, they're going to be the ones that, uh, that keep the story moving along to some extent because, uh, they're making sure that characters eating and dressing themselves.
Speaker 8 43:11 When I, when, um, when you would go home in the book to the roommate, Nikki, I'd always be reassured like it, it felt like coming home to a, uh, to a very pleasant and kind roommate. I think you captured that like early twenties roommates such very well in the comic. A lot of the jokes and a lot of the plot points come from experiences on dating apps and comic M S who may or may not have everything to do with real ms as we've learned, um, suggest that dating apps haven't been around long enough to have good etiquette established. So if you could define dating app etiquette yourself in your own words and opinions, how would you do that if you feel so capable? It's,
Speaker 9 43:52 it's tricky cause I, I, I can do a cop out here where I say they still haven't really been along there really to be too many rules. But I think to some extent it really just comes down to the individual being honest about what they're there for. And I can say maybe the character in the book, uh, isn't really that honest and isn't really that upfront with what their needs actually are because they aren't really aware of them. Um, and so I think that's where a lot of the sort of the slipperiness of Tinder and OkCupid and in your hinges and your bumbles and all of those things kind of kind of come into play. Cause I think, um, it's, it's always healthy to have an understanding of when you're looking at these websites or these, these apps and maybe how you feel when you're on them.
Speaker 9 44:40 Because I think, um, there's been a lot of times where I realized that I am on them cause I'm bored or just just like looking for a distraction. And that's not really a time where say if you're looking for a stable individual who you want to maybe be a partner or maybe not just some sort of fly on the wall, um, person in your life, uh, not like a great time to be logging on, just to have somebody be entertaining to you. That's not a, that's not a very good behavior to have. So, um, and then, you know, when people are on there and are pretty upfront with maybe they don't want something serious or they don't, you know, they aren't necessarily looking for a husband or a wife or a what have you then, you know, just being respectful of that and not calling them, you know, shallow apes. Um, it's, it's just tricky. I think just, uh, you know, making sure that you're asking questions, you're reciprocating information, you're, you're not dropping by with the Hey at two 30 in the morning. And, you know, being around in human hours is, is a good, uh, primer in using those apps. But, you know, people are tricky people. People are individuals and humans. And I think just being, you know, on the side of understanding and kind is, is usually a good way to go. So,
Speaker 8 45:59 yeah. Well, those sound like good rules for dating, but also good rules for life. Um,
Speaker 9 46:06 absolutely. Oh, and then make sure your, you know, your profile pictures well lit. I think that kind of goes without saying, but there's, there's uh, there's men folk out there that still haven't really figured that out. Yeah.
Speaker 8 46:17 Um, I think that one thing that is very well demonstrated in Tinder, Ella is, uh, the art of the weightlifter photo, the art of the weightlifter or appearance. Um, if there are any, uh, weightlifter slash graphic novelist out listening to this, you need to get on this book right away. So
Speaker 9 46:38 maybe the only one I feel like I've run into them by now all maybe one or two of us out there, but uh, but yeah, if, uh, any of my, uh, home friends at Los <inaudible> are listening, they need to get, they need to go buy this book and then they can critique my form whenever we're back in the gym.
Speaker 8 46:56 Gonna wrap us up with an exciting question about the future. I heard you mentioned earlier in this interview, uh, that you're working on a sequel to Tinder. Barela I was just wondering if you wanted to share a little bit more about that project.
Speaker 9 47:09 Yeah. So that's going to be out, um, sometime in October, you know, assuming everything's going to go okay. There's been issues with comics distribution kind of going through this pandemic, but I think everyone's kind of figuring themselves out. Yeah. The publisher of Cinderella's uncivilized books, um, they did a reissue this spring, so the sequel is called desperate pleasures, which pretty much picks right back, left off. It's a, it's better drawn I would say. Um, and it's, it's just a little bit longer. It's a little bit more meaty. Um, other than that, I mean I'm, I'm going to be working on the third one, com, you know, assuming we're all, you know, doing what we're doing. Um, and the next couple of years I'm working on a anthology piece for a, uh, anthology that's out of Lebanon right now. Cool. And if all goes correctly, there might be this weird little Xen called the new Yorker that might have
Speaker 8 48:03 my workout on Friday, but
Speaker 9 48:06 yeah, we'll just see if that, uh, that gets, that comes out. I think it's going to be just an online thing, but keep your eyes peeled for that. So,
Speaker 8 48:14 great. Well, I hope I haven't used up all my free articles, uh, for the month on the New York incognito tab. Really everybody. Well, great. It was so much fun to have you on the show. Um, I really appreciate your calling in.
Speaker 9 48:27 Yeah, absolutely. Anytime.
Speaker 2 48:29 I hope you have a great,
Speaker 8 48:33 you as well. Take it.
Speaker 1 48:34 <inaudible> <inaudible>
Speaker 2 48:43 Hey, all you are listening to right on radio, on KF AI 90.3 FM and streaming live on the
[email protected]. I'm Annie. Thank you for joining us. I'm Liz Oles. I'd like to thank our guests tonight, Richard Haas and ms Hartness for being on our show and the listeners who make the show possible. You can find more news and info about right on radio at Kay fai.org/program/right on radio plus listened to recently.
Speaker 1 49:11 <inaudible>.
