Speaker 1 00:00:39 You are listening to right on radio on KFA 90.3 FM and streaming live on the
[email protected]. I'm Annie, and it is pledge week on KFA tonight on, right on radio. Dave FEDEC talks with Jessica Linde Peterson about her, her essay collection sound like trapped thunder. The star Tribune says it's funny, weird, witty, and off-kilter in its delivery. Peter Peterson's collection crackles with dangerous energy Peterson is an essayist playwright arts administrator and co-founder of yellow tree theater in Osseo, Minnesota. Uh,
Speaker 2 00:01:16 Thank you, Annie. And I'm Josh Weber. And the last part of the hour, I'll be talking with Davon, CPL and award winning journalists on how Israel's actions run counter to traditional historical values of Judaism and are putting Jewish people worldwide in an increasingly untenable position and the latest book, the state of Israel verse the Jews. He lived in Israel for 12 years and is now based in Paris. His book Wald Israeli society is at an impasse was published by other press in 2007, all the, some more so stay tuned to write on radio
Speaker 3 00:02:07 Well, good evening everyone. I'm Dave Fettig and I am very pleased to introduce Jessica Lynn Peterson to write on radio and KFC. I hi, Jessica,
Speaker 4 00:02:17 Thank you so much for having me
Speaker 3 00:02:19 There you are. Yeah. Way up there and Duluth right
Speaker 4 00:02:22 Way up there and dilute.
Speaker 3 00:02:23 Yeah, we love to lose. Thanks for joining us. I'm very excited to speak with you tonight. So Jessica, we typically get started with a reading at the top of the hour to introduce our listeners to the voice of our writer. But before we do that, let's learn a little bit more about you. And how about telling us about your writing background? I know you're a playwright also. Um, so why don't you give us a little background and Jessica Linda writer?
Speaker 4 00:02:51 Yeah, well, I started my writing career primarily as a playwright. Um, mostly in the twin cities at a theater company. I found a called yellow tree out in Osseo, in the Northwest suburbs. Um, and I, I, I have a sort of, I sort of fell into writing, uh, holiday comedies, which is never something that I saw myself doing. It sort of manifested more out of necessity than anything. Cause we always needed like a good small cast quality comedy.
Speaker 3 00:03:22 Yes, indeed.
Speaker 4 00:03:23 Yeah. So I started writing these sort of Minnesota centric, um, holiday comedies.
Speaker 3 00:03:29 Okay. Okay. Before you go on Jessica. Yes. So give us a line, give us one of the, he has great laughs. He got from one of your holiday shows. Come on. That's what we do here.
Speaker 4 00:03:45 Well, I have, I have six plays and so they're all swirling in my head. Um, you know, they are doing, they're doing one coming up at, um, it's called miracle and Christmas, like to the CQL this, this winter.
Speaker 3 00:04:00 Wonderful. Okay. You know what, we're all going to go see it. I used to live up at Christmas lake, not on the lake a much more humble home in the vicinity of Christmas lake. Um, but yeah, well that's great. So that's a nice plug.
Speaker 4 00:04:12 Well, I actually didn't, I didn't know that there was a Christmas lake when I started writing my miracle and Christmas like series and it was literally only 20 minutes away where I was living and I didn't know that, but so I started writing, I started writing plays and I have some other romantic comedies. And then I went to Hamlin, um, a few years ago to get my MFA in creative writing and started exploring other genres. And I sort of fell into, um, this form of the lyric essay, which I kind of fell in love with. And so then I started writing and publishing essays in literary journals and magazines. Um, and I feel I'm a very, I'm a leader artists. And so I, um, this is a sort of a very dramatic kind of worm. Um, so it kind of fits me really well.
Speaker 3 00:04:57 Nice. Nice. Well, thank you for that introduction. That's Jessica Lynn Peterson. And now how about a reading from sound like trapped thunder, your collection award-winning collection of essays. I might add. What do you read for us tonight?
Speaker 4 00:05:11 Um, yes. So, um, I'm going to read from an essay called dear GB and what this, this is a, this is actually a letter to a grizzly bear. GB stands for grizzly bear. So give me a little signal when my time is up, because I'm really bad with timing myself. Okay.
Speaker 3 00:05:27 Very good.
Speaker 4 00:05:30 All right. Uh, dear GB, you're here again. And this time you're sitting on the sofa with my mom. I can't stop staring at your claws. Soft brown eyes, like a middle school boyfriend and a nose as big as a coffee mug wet with snot slick black lips. These details are almost too much like a cartoon that I can smell you. Pant hot, deep tuba breaths through your open mouth in perfect staccato rhythm. Have you swallowed a metronome? Are we at band practice? You're staring at me, staring at you from across the living room entryway one hand on the door knob in case I need to escape. No offense. Living room scene is appearing very dignified and I fully expect finger sandwiches to be served on a wheelie cart at any moment until my mom reaches out to pat your Husky unfamiliar shoulder, like you're a visiting uncle from Indiana or something.
Speaker 4 00:06:23 I warn her not to do it, but she does it anyway. Even in dreams, she refuses to listen to me. She doesn't say, but I know she's thinking your shoulder hair is coarser than it appears less like for more like small brown wires, probably useful for quick drying. How do you stand on the edge of a waterfall without falling it? Nevermind. I say stupid boring things. When I'm trying to get someone to like me, my mom is too close, but because you're so beautiful, maybe she thinks it doesn't matter. Maybe she thinks Rudy is a barrier that you will always be this cool, but the moment she touches you with that finger, you attack swiping at her chest, her neck, your, her face with your black claws. Each one of them are poised dagger. You're up on all fours on the sofa cowering over her small body, a furry brown building.
Speaker 4 00:07:12 Ready for the kill. Your roar, deafening you're meaning precise. My mom's last words are a gurgle, nice touch. Anyway. I thought you were in the bushes a few weeks ago, but it was just a giant bull moose eating leaves. His rack was exactly the size of a kitchen table and soaked in fuzzy velvet. He reminded me of Elton John. I stood there on a trail watching Elton John Grunden eat leaves with my family and some other families. It felt like we were watching TV, but it was real life, you know, really happening. I took a lot of pictures. I was disappointed that he wasn't you like the time I was trying to meet staying after a concert by hanging around, back behind the dumpsters. And all I met was his sister-in-law. I was 19 and living in London wearing a long velvet skirt that Elton John would've gone nuts over my plan was to start singing the moment, staying emerged from the backstage door and he would be overcome and invite me on tour. When instead I was shooed away from the dumpsters by the security guard, I went crying back to my Swiss cottage flat. And on the way I let a middle-aged guy with a greasy ponytail, usher me into his close cafe. He could have killed me, but instead he made me a steak. While I sat at the empty bar nursing, my shattered dreams and feeling very sorry for myself that I wasn't on tour in the arms of my beloved.
Speaker 3 00:08:29 Ah, that's Jessica Lynn Peterson reading from sounded like trap thunder, her collection of essays. Thank you, Jessica. That was great. Uh, there's a lot in there. Um, really reflect when I think of your work. Um, w w what I hope we all hope is a metaphor, the grizzly bear, um, and that wasn't a real scene. And then what jumping right to what we perceive to be a real scene, which is he has a 19 year old infatuated with sting. Um, you, you jumped back and forth very nicely. Um, so, uh, I wanna, I want to talk about essays a little bit, Jessica. So, uh, I feel like that it's a form. It's a writing form that, you know, in large part you'd think would have had its heyday years ago, right. When, you know, as he has seen SAS seem to be more in Vogue, um, I want, I want to say mid century and that sort of thing. And earlier in literature, and yet here you are making a name for yourself, writing essays. How did you come to this form? Why essays?
Speaker 4 00:09:34 Yeah, I think that, um, essay is the word essay. The genre of the essay now encompasses so much more than the traditional form of the essay, which, you know, is, is really about exploring a question and explaining your thoughts. Um, but you know, there's just so many more hybrid forms that have kind of emerged since those days of the sort of linear form of the essay where you have, I guess, a thesis and then you have the supporting paragraphs, and then you have your conclusion, um, nothing wrong with that. But the kind of essay that I feel like is kind of exploding right now, and is the kind of essay that I'm interested in is this sort of lyrical essay that kind of combines this poetic, these poetic forms and sort of musicality and language, um, with the essayistic question, um, kind of this sort of imaginative form that bumps up against, um, fact in fiction. And it was very playful. So, um, it's a very exciting time to be a non-fiction writer because there's a lot more allowable
Speaker 3 00:10:45 If I close my eyes and listen to your words or, and, or looked at beautiful weather's on the page, I would have guessed poetry, I would guess poetry. Um, so tell me, uh, and, and you hinted at this, are there just simply no rules for essays now? Uh, because, uh, boy,
Speaker 4 00:11:09 Well, that's, I mean, it is it's, it seems that way to the naked eye that there are no rules. Um, but especially for the essay that you just pointed to, um, beautiful weathers, that's a type of lyric essay called a collage essay where you take, you take bits and pieces of other people's published words, and you put them together in a collage to say what you're trying to say. And so all the words in that essay are don't belong to me. But what I say with those words does belong to me. Um, and yeah, I mean, it's not just a free for all, you know, it's still the lyric essay in this sort of lyrical form. It still has to obey rules. It still has to obey its own rules or you lose your reader. And so we're really interested in form, you know, all the essays in my book are kind of different forms. There's a letter there's, you know, there's, um, uh, you know, there's, I'm trying to think, oh, there's the bits and pieces of boy, a voicemail that somebody leaves me. Um, and I think it's about just sort of setting up this, um, form and kind of leading the reader along with these little crumbs and, you know, you can't stray too far away from the form of the leader gets lost and frustrated.
Speaker 3 00:12:34 Uh, and I would just want to let the readers know, uh, and this is, you know, praise for you, but it maybe also reflective of the modern essay form. Uh, it's just fun to read impossible to stop reading. Um, you pull us in and pull us through, uh, but, uh, lyrical essays, which I love the term. Uh, uh, they're just a blast to read. And, um, uh, let me ask you also, we'll pull it, do you play with poetry? Do you play with poetry? Do you write poetry?
Speaker 4 00:13:06 I know, I love that. Actually I dapple I actually, the first play that I ever wrote was, uh, called string and it was about a poet. And so there was a lot of poetry in the play. Um, but I never, I never really pursued poetry, but I did take some poetry in graduate school just because, I mean, as an essay as I can, I just feel like I can learn so much from, from the form of poetry. So I feel like poetry really, really inspires my writing and, um, informs it and you can sort of get the poetic sense, but I would never call myself a poet. Wow.
Speaker 3 00:13:45 I would, I would call you a port and I, I think number one, it's beautiful writing, but two, I take as my definition of poetry from Harold bloom, which it has to have metaphor. And if there's a metaphor in there, it's, uh, it's poetry. And, uh, uh, this is, uh, just stick with beautiful metaphor. Um, we are speaking with Jessica Lynn Peterson and we are already rapidly approaching our halfway mark. Can you believe this, Jessica, this is the way it goes here on the radio. I know it is pledge week or weeks or something. We're asking our listeners to support the coolest radio station in town, uh, by almost any measure. And, uh, the only one with a program like this, uh, K F ai.org go out there, show some love for cafes and your friends at right on radio. We bring you wonderful writers like Jessica Lynn Peterson.
Speaker 3 00:14:33 Okay. Jessica, let's talk more about essays. And I asked this often of our poets who joined us, who often write about very personal things and they put themselves on the page, uh, and they put other people on the page. And sometimes it's quite obviously we were talking about, um, these are personal essays, you know, very intensely personal essays, most of them, many of them, um, how do you navigate the, I'm still unsure of this. I'm going to mispronounce this of what you need to say and how you want to say it. Your life is not alone. You're not alone, you're with other people. How do you do that?
Speaker 4 00:15:15 Well, first of all, I just want to say that you should never ask me how to do it because I feel like I got on it very Well. That would be my first piece of advice.
Speaker 4 00:15:30 I have made so many mistakes and, um, this being my first published book, um, it happened very quickly and I feel like the next time I go around, I will probably be a little more thoughtful and aware of, especially not when you know, more so when I'm writing about others. Um, but I also feel like we respond to writing that as vulnerable and truthful. And it's really scary to write things that are, they feel secretive. And it's one thing to write it in a class and to show it to your classmates. But once it came out, I wasn't really prepared for how I would feel for people to know these things about me. It feels very terrifying really,
Speaker 3 00:16:19 But you should know, and you know, this as a reader and other people have told you this it's really a gift to the reader because when we read you, we find ourselves in your stories too. So, uh, um, you should know that you're communing with your reader and, and, uh, uh, you know, you're laying bare yourself on the page, of course, but, uh, um, we go along for the ride to, uh, the boy you do. So let's, instead of talking about other people, let's talk about you, you do, or you very honest about yourself and, uh, periods of your life and, uh, um, uh, your body changes in your body to what degree. And maybe this is a guy thinking like a guy, but, uh, were you writing about being a woman? And if so, were you writing for women when you were writing passages about being a woman?
Speaker 4 00:17:07 Yeah. Yeah. Um, I, it was pointed out to me that this collection is very woman centric and it's not something that I set out to do, but once you break down each essay, you realize, wow, like, there's that, there's a grandma, that's a hero. There's a, you know, a female friend, that's a hero. There's, uh, there's just a, there's a lot of females in this, um, in this collection. And I just think being a mother, I stayed at home with my kids while I run my business on the side. And, um, and I'm a wife and I've, you know, my husband, I've been married for almost 20 years and, um, being a woman and sort of wrestling and grappling with those, those gender roles and both in my place of business and at home and, uh, the domestic life, I've always kind of wrestled with that.
Speaker 4 00:17:54 I never saw myself as a stay at home mom and I sort of fell into it and I don't regret it. I, I loved it in so many ways, but I, I didn't have an easy time. And I think that some of the work and this book kind of reflects that wrestling. And I, I think that sometimes we don't give ourselves as women permission to say that's really hard. And I don't really like this part of this, you know, it's, I think it's okay to give yourself permission to just admit that yeah, like some of it, sometimes it's just really hard and that's what I was trying to do. I think with some of these pieces is just to say, I see you, I hear you being a woman can feel like a constant state of balance balancing act where you never put yourself first and so hard. And writing really helped me sort through some of those things and really see the beauty and all of that struggle. And so that to me, would that writing is a gift in that.
Speaker 3 00:18:50 That was my follow-up question. If you go to writing to figure things out for yourself to stop, think Mino, pause, and the time, um, make sense of your world. And, and clearly you do, uh, I, there's a section in here page 61, you talked about wounds and I have a piece of art from a local VAR artist hanging in my home. Um, and it's a monster with a tear rolling down his cheek. And it's, uh, a phrase in German, which means look out for the wounded. And, um, you talk a lot about wounds. Um, and so this is related to our past when we're getting deep here, Jessica. So does writing help heal your wounds? Does it help heal your wounds writing?
Speaker 4 00:19:37 Oh, I, I think it does. I mean, I think of that many therapists would give people advice, you know, when they start therapy to start keeping a journal, even if you don't ever show it to anyone, um, it's just a way to organize our thoughts and to take emotion out of it and be a little more cerebral. Um, and I, I really love to spin to dig down and find the hope and the joy in things, even in the darkest of things. There's a lot of, um, generational trauma in my family, especially with women with, um, you know, addiction and things that have happened. And I didn't realize how much of that I was carrying from my grandmothers and my sisters and my mother. And, um, now, like if you crack it open, there's a lot of gaping wounds. And so that essay, dear GB, I was really exploring this idea of rage and wound being wounded and what that means,
Speaker 3 00:20:32 Uh, another line that appealed to me and I thought this would make a great title. Uh, anything in a strange place seems important. Um, I love that. I could ask you to talk about that or we can just let that go. I just wanted readers to hear that sentence because it really spoke to me. Well, let's talk about horses. Why is there a horse on your cover and why do you write about horses? What's up with horses.
Speaker 4 00:20:56 I mean, I actually, I did not pick the title of this book. My editors picked it. It was called actually it, I wanted it to be called living room horses when I submitted the manuscript. That's what it was called. That's pretty cool. Yeah, I liked it. But, um, yeah, I liked this a lot too. I didn't pick this. This was the first design that I saw and I was like this, I love it. I just love it. Yeah. Um, the sound like trout funder is a phrase from, from the PSA about horses and it's really kind of touching on the feeling of being trapped in this sort of dumb domestic city. And what, you know, how do you find your way when you feel trapped in a life that you can, you know, sort of scrape out of the barn or something? I mean, so I, I write a lot about very large animals, whales, horses, grizzly bears, and apparently I'm obsessed with things that are bigger than me. I don't really, I don't really know what that's about, but I, if you were a therapist, you could probably say, go on alive that,
Speaker 3 00:22:02 But I'm going to suggest fear and fascination. I'm going to, in all those sorts of things that you read about, um, in, in that essay, you're riding a horse, uh, very pregnant. And I got very nervous reading that I have to tell you. And I know that's it that's me. That's me again. Here's another guy thing to say, but holy cow, you were really, you were riding that horse hard.
Speaker 4 00:22:23 I was stupid. I didn't get it right. I'm so fast. I, you know, he's thought and that's another sort of, I guess you could see that as a metaphor, but he saw at home and he wanted to get there. If you've ever gone on a horse ride, the horses always steam when they, when you turn toward home. And so he was probably like, this is fine. I know I'm not going to hit this tree, you know,
Speaker 3 00:22:48 But it really, I
Speaker 4 00:22:49 Literally didn't wear a helmet because they wanted to, I didn't want to mess up my hair. Like, that's terrible.
Speaker 3 00:22:56 I got a big laugh in the studio. Yeah. You probably heard that.
Speaker 4 00:23:01 My son never hears,
Speaker 3 00:23:03 Oh my God. That's great. Well, you have to tell him that someday. Maybe not yet. Um, so where do your ideas come from? You sort of hinted at this. Um, do you sit down and every morning I ask poets a lot the same similar question. Um, is there a time of day you write, do you wait for something to hit you? Do you make yourself get X number of words done a day? Okay.
Speaker 4 00:23:23 No, I don't. I'm the most undisciplined writer. I, when I was in graduate school, I just poked my way through scratch at school. It took me four years and you know, that sort of discipline really. That's where I wrote this book, but, um, I become obsessed with things. If I see something in the news or I'm on a walk and I see a certain bird or like, you know, read an article in national geographic, I, I F I get an image in my head and I like latches on and I can't stop thinking about it. Um, and like the grizzly bear essay, you know, that was based on a walk that I did with my family in Montana and, and a dream that I had about a grizzly bear. And they sort of, but I did become quite obsessed with, with this grizzly bear character. And, um, yeah, I would say obsession is, is an inspiration for me.
Speaker 3 00:24:13 We make a lot of fun connections, uh, and I want to stress to listeners. There's a lot of laughs in this book. Um, just a really great smiles and laughs you surprise us all the time, um, with the way, um, I dunno the way your mind works, however that happens, whatever, whatever, whatever goes on there. Um, we, we are nearing our end here. I want to talk about what you're working on next. Um, more essays. Will there be another collection? Are you turning your attention outward away from JLP or what's happening? What are you writing about?
Speaker 4 00:24:46 Well, I've been in a transition. I I'm, my family moved up. We left our theater and moved up north and got a new, I got a new job and getting the kids settled in a new school. So, um, once that all settles down, um, I D I D I can't stop writing essays. I have to keep on, I'm just in love with, I'm just in love with this form and I'm going to be teaching at Hamlin, um, adjunct next semester. Um,
Speaker 3 00:25:14 Yeah. So,
Speaker 4 00:25:15 Um, but I'm going to keep writing essays. We'll see. We'll see what happens with them. Maybe I'll start writing about teeny tiny animals this time.
Speaker 3 00:25:24 That would be in cute little animals. I'm sure something terrifying will happen. Jessica. It's been a treat, getting to know you and having you on our show right on radio. It's Jessica Lynn Peterson, author of sound like trapped thunder. She lived in Minneapolis. We've lost her to Deluce it's diluted gain. Um, we hope we can have you back some time. Um, thank you for being with us.
Speaker 4 00:25:48 Oh, great. Thank you so much for having me. This was lovely.
Speaker 3 00:25:51 Absolutely. It's been a treat. And now this
Speaker 2 00:26:08 I'm here with <inaudible> to discuss his latest work. The state of Israel verse the Jews. He's a writer for the magazine America, the online news website, orient 21 and a former senior editor for alimony. He lived in Israel for 12 years and is now based in Paris. His book walled Israeli society at an impasse was published by other press in 2007 seven. Thanks for joining me on right on radio. Thank you. So my first question, can you describe for us the paradoxical society of Israel? You described the book, how it's not democratic, but very liberal. It has a thriving culture of secrecy, yet it enjoys in astonishing freedom of speech.
Speaker 5 00:26:52 Yes, it's it is paradoxical. I agree. You know, in Israel you can burn an Israeli flag in public if you're not Arab, but if you're a Jew, you can burn an Israeli flag in public. You can express any idea you want to express. If you do the right to speak, to express an opinion, any opinion is almost absolute. But, uh, of course, if you're, and if you're not Palestinian, you even had the right to say that Israel has no right to exist. For example, it's an opinion. Then Israel has had also adopted a low the Nathan state, the cold, the nation stateful of the Jewish people that proves that Jews and Arabs have not equal rights in Israel. Even if both of them are citizens of the same country have same passport. So it's very paradoxical, but I believe you American could. For example, I, I it's, it's easy to understand for an American it's much more difficult for a French. If you look at the history of America, for example, during, during, uh, hundreds of years, you had a democracy for whites, I mean, for whites and you have, you had first amendment, but this was only for white. So it's, it's something a little bit similar because if you're a, you can say whatever you want, but the, the level of democracy is low. The level of labor of liberality in speech, or in opinion, is very white.
Speaker 2 00:28:43 In the first chapter you discussed, the learned helplessness Palestinians have acquired. You call these really occupation, a dull headache for many around the globe. What are the factors that make the Palestinians? The Palestinian oppression is something we have grown accustomed to globally. What ways can we change that?
Speaker 5 00:29:04 It's a, I can tell you, uh, is there is a very good Palestinian joke. It goes like that to old Palestinians. <inaudible> speaking one in which the other, and one says we are so unlucky, unlucky. We fall on the Jews. If we had got to come to with the Jews for dozens of years, we would have our state. So, but because these are the Jews and then we can't have it because everybody support them. And the other one answers you're wrong. We are lucky having a conflict with Jews, because if we, where we go is from China or currents from your ag or for, from Turkey, who would bother about us. And you know, what both of them are, right? Both of them are. Right? So that, to answer quickly to your question, what I think is, uh, people got used to the idea that there is no solution to the Palestinian issue for many reasons.
Speaker 5 00:30:21 And the, the, I would say that the main reason is that people look at that conflict. And the conclusion is one side is too strong for the other. It's all one, there is one side, some think is good. Others think it's unfortunate, but the Palestinian cannot win. And the problem is that they cannot lose because it's a simple fact of existing is a problem for Israel. So there is no winner in that conflict. And then, and the, the whole power of Israel is not able to bring for a victory. They come, they can just dominate the Palestinian. They cannot finish with the conflict. So it, it takes time. And, and, uh, and in the last period, the difference is so huge between between both protagonists, that the feeling, the general feeling is there is no solution. And altogether it goes with another feeling. It's a kind of conviction that at the end of the day, if it doesn't disappear, if no one's solved that issue, it will come back.
Speaker 5 00:31:37 No one knows how when, but it will come back. And the reason is that Israel is like the last colonial state on earth. This is it. This is the problem. And, and, and it will not, it will not stand like that. It can not work. All colonialism has finished someday one day. So there are also kind of oppression in other countries, but this is pure colonialism. So, so it has to be brought to an end. So this is probably boxing Cole. No one knows how to do that. And then many people think that it, it has to, to happen.
Speaker 2 00:32:26 I was shocked by a statistic in this book, American studies show that Jewish Israeli supported Trump more than anyone else in the world. Why did Israelis see him as an appealing leader?
Speaker 5 00:32:41 You know what these an ideal type in, uh, in sociology, it's the idea we say in French, I D I did. I B I was tired. It means, it means it represent because Trump really re present a very huge way of thinking. Very common in Israel. The first thing is that, first of all, first of all, this statistic is right. Even Mississippi, you've been, uh, in Wyoming, didn't vote for Trump as the, the polls in Israel showed that 70 to 75% of the Jewish of the American use of the Israeli Jews would vote for Trump. So first crumb things that you can solve everything, uh, through folks, this is he, he doesn't know any other way to find a solution to any problem, but using folks, uh, and, and these things that there is no issue that force cannot resolve. The second point is that he's very disruptive. He is, he's not ashamed of using, uh, dogs enough, a big arguments. Thirdly, he shares with Israel and equals disdain for international low. He makes his own load like Israel and Y majority of Israel, Israeli Jews think that this is the right way of sinking, because this is the way they think they themselves are used since more than 50 years, not to submit, for example, to international low. So the way he behaved, the way he behaved was a deed. And the way he speaks was very attractive for the, for the Israelis.
Speaker 2 00:35:06 You mentioned a flourishing of what can be called a Jewish KU Klux Klan in Israel. What enabled this group to flourish?
Speaker 5 00:35:17 Well, this is a long story. Really. We have time. I'm trying to make a choice that, you know, in 48, the Israelis expelled 85% of the 87% of the Palestinian population that was living on their territory. But in, in 67, they counter the Palestinian Territories Gaza and the west bank, and the colonization started almost immediately. All the governments left or right had supported the policy of settlements. When, when you look backward, it's impossible not to think that this was not planned. There was a will and a half hidden agenda, I would say. So you'd take the land that other village for security reason. And then after three, five or 10 years, you see a sense of nothing built on it. This is an organized land-grab, and it goes like that for 55 years already. So the, the Colonian camp has grown. Like, you know what? There's a golden, it's a monster.
Speaker 5 00:36:43 And the Colonia can, what's not so, so big at the beginning in 67, it was an idea. But you know, th th the settlers were very few today. It's a huge force. It's more than half a century. And the colonial mentality was already present in Israel in 67, but it has completely invaded the minds of these Railey Jews. If I can say that, and I, I already gave you an example. I know very good Israeli friend. I met her. It was just as the beginning of the second Intifada. And we started to see, to have an argument, et cetera. And at one point she said to me, oh, you know what? You are a journalist. You, you know, to better than me, the history of my own country, et cetera, et cetera. I not able to argue with you. She said, but you know what? I tell you, what is my position? I am, uh, ready to make peace with the Palestinian. There is. And to give them back all the territories, including east Jerusalem, I'm a rent to that. I have only one condition. Well, I asked, I said to her, it starts to very well, what is your condition? And she answered. They take us all our Arabs.
Speaker 5 00:38:14 It means to expel all these records, all the Arabs who have Israeli passport, I can assure you. I know her well, she's a nice woman. She doesn't know that this is called racism. She doesn't know that you don't decide full the life of others. You cannot expel population that you don't like just before you dislike them. It's it's things don't do not go like that. It's not a way to solve a problem. She doesn't know she's an, this is a mentality. She had the force. She has a power. So she thinks that it's possible to impose anything to, to the, to the opponents, to the enemy. It's, it's sad, but it's, this is the situation.
Speaker 2 00:39:13 I think it's a great time to segue now, to my next question. Over the course of 50 years, fanaticism has played an ever larger role with young soldiers of the Judas eternity unit, where you're seeing more and more religious ultra nationalists. What made this possible?
Speaker 5 00:39:33 No, again, they'll keep patient your patient. There is nothing else. I mean, when the colonial mentality invades all your way of thinking, when you think that the other is a barbarian is ambulant by nature, that God gave us, gave you this land. And that honoring ownership on it is illegitimate. Even if he's here for 10 generations and the taking his land for yourself is legitimate, because God is on your side. You come to sing that, to eradicate the land from the bar, this bar, Byron population, pleases God. And, and then you start killing with the feeling that what you do is good for you, for your peoples, for God, it's as well. And you, you start to behave yourself like Ababa iron, and this is what the heck, what is happening then.
Speaker 5 00:40:33 And then you act as about buy-in in almost total impunity, which is very problematic. I mean, what's happening in the west bank is awful and terrible or in Gaza. And there is no, you don't pay for that. You know, it's, it's no one comes and asks you to stop that. Or there is no bike of the state, nothing you can, they do whatever they want. So, you know, when, when, when essentially kills a Palestinian, it happens every day. You read how Alan sees writing newspaper. Every day, there is an article not, not killing, but including killings and other nice treatments. And the Israeli police never investigate. And then comes the, the United States and put in there. And they said, they told any decision of the UN of the security council. So you get used to the idea that impunity is the best situation I'm nurse, and then it brings, and when you're a religious, it's a long story. But no, again, again, it's a very sad story because the Jewish religion was not his target. Historically speaking, this kind of a very aggressive religion, but the link between the hyper nationalism and religious appeared to be, to have terrible, terrible consequences.
Speaker 2 00:42:29 There's an expression in Hebrew that goes to piss. And it's William pool from the diving board. What is meant by this?
Speaker 5 00:42:37 Well, Hebrew can be very, sometimes very crude,
Speaker 2 00:42:45 Very crass. Yeah.
Speaker 5 00:42:48 And the meaning is simple. You and I, it happened once, at least with this in the industry, Nick pool. Well, you know, it was hard. We decided to do that. And nothing happened to her. No, no one knew it's very different to, to go on the diving board and to piss in the water from the diving board. It's a way of thinking, look, I do something which is forbidden. And so what I piss on you and nothing will happen to me. It's, uh, it's, it's the phrase is inclination of what is impunity and the feeling of in tunity.
Speaker 5 00:43:44 Why are, why are you the, I can bend that. It's a phrase in Hebrew and the president of <inaudible>, which is a human rights organization, uh, in Israel, in the man who, who said, this is a situation in the occupied territory. It's pissing these Israeli PIs in the swimming pool from the diving board. I can't tell you his story. Uh, there was a fee because there are consequences to that. There was, uh, there was a movie called Manchuria by a filmmaker documentaries that I know her very well. She's a very good friend of mine. And at some point it's about the neighborhood in the CTO Jaffa, and it was destroyed to, to make it it's near the sea. So it was destroyed in the seventies to make a new neighborhood, very full, full businessman and et cetera, et cetera. So that, so someone from the municipality says that, uh, the population that was living that mostly poor Arab, uh, poor American Jews were, were expelled.
Speaker 5 00:45:04 Then the professor of the students that all here asked him, why don't you remind that before that expulsion, there was another expression, tenure, 20 years earlier, the expansion of the population of the Palestinian population. And then the guy says, well, why, why did you speak about that? Oh, change the professor, because this is history. Oh, says the, the guy, the, of the municipality, I took history, book history. Why do they care about history? And, uh, and, and then he starts speaking and saying, the one who wins makes the low, and this is it. So we're spending. So what now, why I'm telling that story, because for generations, young Israelis were taught at school. We never expelled the single Palestinian. They have you say, they fled, they plead the flame alone.
Speaker 5 00:46:21 No, we never expelled them. Why did they? They lie. But why the denial of from the deed they did the denial comes because you know that if you agree to recognize that you organize and that clean thing, then this is a crime and you committed the crime. So that's the reason why you say it didn't happen. We never did that. What same, the guy of the municipality today. Of course we did that and we need to do it to gain if that's, if it's necessary. So you assume the crime, this is a feeling of impunity. So what it's okay. We know it's penalties people. And I it's like, this is why Trump is. So the sex appeal for the, for the Israelis, he saved the things. And this is the new Israelis from that point of view are quite different from the fathers and grandfathers pastors. They don't like it's okay. You can say that we expelled. Yes. We didn't that
Speaker 2 00:47:45 You say that Americans have a lot of influence on Israeli academia. I was wondering to talk about that. Yes.
Speaker 5 00:47:53 Well, no, you need to know that American impact on, uh, on the academic fields is important to everywhere. Not only in Israel, but I would agree with you. It's, it's more like that in Israel because of the special relationship between the two countries, half of these Israeli academy have for sure, or a lot, or a long period, they studied and or taught in U S universities and that, and this Trenton strongly the relation between both countries. And of course, both academic fields in many way, the way of thinking is in Israel and in the U S is often quite similar in there. Uh, so, so this has been built, but it's, it's not only true in the academic field. If you take a security services, for example, this is the same. You can say the same is the security forces in Israel and in the U S the CIA and the Mossad handed, very close and special relationship, and you can multiply the fecals.
Speaker 2 00:49:24 So I think the best way to end this conversation really is going back to the quote that opens your book. The historian, Tony judge said that Israel is bad for the Jews. What did he mean by this? I mean, it's an issue of the Jewish Homeland versus having a Jewish state of Israel. Yeah.
Speaker 5 00:49:45 Diamonds and has been historically founded on two pillars. One was emancipation of the Jews through the building of a Jewish state in Palestine. The second pillar was a classic colonialists colonialism up settlement, not it wasn't the total domination of the native population. The idea was, uh, of a colonial settlement. The S the state of Israel was founded on two basic clothes that stated that Israel is both the nature of Israel. The political nature of Israel is both Jewish and democratic. It means both ethic and democratic, but since then, this idea has shown that it doesn't work together. Ethnicity and democracy doesn't work well together, and you have to choose. It is either a Jewish state where non Jews cannot have the same rights as Jews, which is the case now in Israel or a democratic state where everybody has equal rights. And then the state has no has to abandon their ethnicity as its essential main component.
Speaker 5 00:51:06 Tony jug wrote these statements 55 years ago, uh, 55 years after the creation of Israel in, but in 48, Israel procedure's expulsion of 85% of the Palestinians who lived on this territory. But in 67, the conquest of the Palestinian territory, the west bank and Gaza reintroduced the Palestinian issue inside the Israeli society itself. Today, there are 6.5 million of Jews, but also 6.5 million of Palestinian on the same territory. So it's nine is my created estates and apartheid state. Was it written? No, not sure. Not necessarily, but it happened. What you'd said was simple. He did Israeli Jews continue to wish to live without Arabs, which mean without the natives, they will continue to strengthen and about us and about the state. And this has no future, or it may have even, he, he, he spoke about that. It may have even a more dramatic future. Israel in a foolish state of mind could tries to make the reality of the dream of so many Israelis to get rid of the only Palestinians and new ethnic cleansing. I don't think it is possible today, but in specific very particular conditions, it may happen. And if it does happen, Israel will definitely become the pariah. It's tight. In both case predicted Jude, Israel will then become a terrible threat for the Jews and for all the Jews, not only for these Rangers, this is the meaning of the book.
Speaker 2 00:53:05 You've been listening to my conversation with Selvon Siebel, talking about his book, the United States of Israel verse the Jews Sabaan thank you for being on right on radio with us.
Speaker 5 00:53:15 Thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 2 00:53:17 And now this.
