Speaker 1 00:00:18 You are listening to right on radio on KPI 90.3 FM and streaming live on the
[email protected]. I'm Liz Alz. Tonight, I ran on radio. Josh talks with Carol die-ins the author of the short story collection. The distance we call up her stories, explore the complexities of contemporary family life with a fine balance of humor and insight.
Speaker 2 00:00:45 And I'm Josh Webber. And the last part of the hour, Liz olds talked to Jeanette Escudero, her book, the apology project, her new novel by fired lawyer who decides to apologize to those. She has hurt through her life and career all this some more. So stay tuned to round radio. Hello, Carol, are you there?
Speaker 3 00:01:08 How are you?
Speaker 2 00:01:09 I'm doing great. How are you doing?
Speaker 3 00:01:11 Thank you, grace.
Speaker 2 00:01:13 If you are, whenever you are ready, you can begin your first reading.
Speaker 3 00:01:17 Okay. This is a story. Um, disappearances, and, um, I'll just begin at the beginning. Nearing the end. If my father's sabbatical year in Florence, my mother convinced him to rent a house in the mountains. She slid the holiday homes for sure. On top of his computer. This one has a ping pong table and a waterfall. It was June, 1994, and I had just turned 11 Northern Italy had been deluged by months of rain, cussing mudslides into avalanches. But until we arrived in the mountains, soldiers waving her car around roadblocks. My other, my mother hadn't realized the house we'd rented was that the epicenter of destruction, she stared at the small cement house mountain rising steeply behind waterfall, boring 30 feet away and told me Leah, you're not to go near the waterfall unless we're out here across the valley. Half a mountain had been amputated by heavy rains trees washed down the slope houses buried in mud.
Speaker 3 00:02:29 The waterfalls constant roar was loud, but not loud enough to block the sound of controlled explosions set off to prevent further landslides in the distance chain size wall. Chances, wind as soldiers cleared fallen trees. Each morning, I followed my parents up the mountain, a daily Trek for gelato at the bar near the summit. Wouldn't cross as dotted the path along the road. Some was small bouquets of plastic flowers outside the bar. We sat on the wall, overlooking the valley and licked ice cream cones. These hovered above violent blossoms, the world's smelled of sour trapped water. One morning, a week after we had arrived in the mountains, my father's cell phone rang and he fumbled to open it. He'd only recently bought a cell phone, presumably to talk to his editor in New York while we were on vacation, he flipped up in the phone and closed it, shaking his head, telling us he'd been cut off who wasn't. My mother asked my editor. She stared at him from behind dark glasses, but she just called a half hour ago. My father looked past us toward the road of worry, gaze something different in his eyes. Something that hadn't been there before. Wait here. He told us he was going to the village church where reception might be better above the trees. He didn't come back.
Speaker 2 00:04:02 Very good. You were just listening to Carol Dines reading from her short story collection that this distance we call love. She has been described by author Adrian van young as a merciless tender excavator of the human heart. She has published poems and stories in numerous journals and anthologies, including somebody speaking my language, voices of the land and love and lust. She is the recipient of the Judy bloom award, as well as the recipient of Minnesota and Wisconsin state artists fellowships. Carol, thanks for being on right on radio.
Speaker 3 00:04:34 Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 00:04:35 So my first question right at the gate, it's a, it's a heavy one. Um, the title, this distance, we call love it. Um, it evoked an interesting response for me. It made me wonder how, how limited we are in escaping our own loneliness. Despite choosing to love someone. I kept seeing this idea of recurring in your stories, especially near misses. I was wondering how you felt about this and do you think it's possible to truly know somebody to fully connect?
Speaker 3 00:05:06 I think it is, uh, it's a process to know someone and I think we're all changing. Um, when I began this book, I really wanted to focus on the tension between the demands of the, of relationships and the demands in ourselves to keep growing. And sometimes that means going deeper into a relationship to explore that tension. And sometimes it means breaking off a relationship. And I wanted to look at it that tension between the demands of relationships and the demand in ourselves to be who we need to be in all kinds of relationships. So I do think, um, I think that we are human and we fail in, in our, I also wanted this to be about our most intimate relationships. And I think it's in our most intimate relationships that we feel the distances, um, the most. And so that's, you know, for instance in families, I mean, we love many of us love our families, but they're also the people who have wound us the most. And we are always working through those, those patterns,
Speaker 2 00:06:24 The main character Selvi in the short story, almost I, she asked herself what does one human being, oh, another in this world. And that stood out to me. And I was curious if this is a question that you came up with while you're writing this character.
Speaker 3 00:06:39 I think this is a question I've asked for much of my life. Yes, I, and I D I don't think I'm alone. I think we all have, um, people in our lives who we want to love and we care about, but they are somehow falling through the cracks, whether it's an addiction or mental illness, or, um, uh, just their own, their own issues. And I think this story was about what, how we, how we work through that tension again, it's it's um, at what point do you not owe anyone more of your life and in this story about sisters, um, it could be a friend. It could be a different family member, but I thought one sister has a pretty stable life. And the other one who is the older sister has been falling through the cracks and in and out of homelessness and in and out of addiction. And her sister in the story is just exhausted and is trying to understand how much longer does she still need to pick up her sister and, and carry her in this life. And I think it's, I D I don't think I know many people who have gone through this asking themselves that how much longer should I help this person?
Speaker 2 00:08:18 There's a line in the short story I spell is where you describe how the narrow narrow his family is. And I loved this line. I highlighted my book, how the family's incapable of articulating emptiness. They felt with songs, recipes, advice, and this scene, I couldn't help, but see attributes in my own family. And I maybe in particular, maybe it just Midwestern family. I was curious if this is something you've experienced in gatherings with people in the Midwest.
Speaker 3 00:08:45 I think often in groups, we don't articulate what's going on, whether it's family. Um, but I do think, uh, I don't know if it's a Midwest thing, cause I see it, my husband's from the east coast and it's definitely, I think families function as systems and often for that system to keep going. They're not going to articulate what's underneath very much because I think that's a difficult task. And, um, in this case she was the intellectual in a nonintellectual family. And so she will, uh, I think is coming from, uh, a point of she's also a biracial she's adopted and her exploration of family is, um, she said, I think I'm like the in-laws. We have to learn how to be part of this family. And I think that's true, but I do think families, um, the families, I know that function the best often play games. They have rituals and traditions and they function as a family, but there's a sadness sometimes for the individual who is going through a lot. And there isn't that space in the family.
Speaker 2 00:10:09 I think it just resonates with me so often where I've, maybe this makes me just a bad family member, but I have been in these gatherings and all of a sudden, there's an honest, brutal truth. Maybe people want to talk about, and I've just announced it to see what the family responds to. And it's like a very, it's an awful silence that comes up in the family. And I just learned, well, I guess we can't talk about this stuff. And so that's what maybe have to ask you about that.
Speaker 3 00:10:31 Yeah, no, I think, I think, um, I'm glad that resonated with you and it resonates with me too.
Speaker 2 00:10:39 Okay. So on this, on that similar note, these stories, I mean, I think what I responded to so much of your work here is these stories deal with difficult truths that I think it's hard for us to ask ourselves and you do a wonderful job of charming the reader. I think in bringing out these uncomfortable truths to light, I don't really know how to ask this, but just by asking, how do you achieve this? Is this your goal while you write?
Speaker 3 00:11:03 I really like to get into the thick of it and the emotional life. I feel like so much of our lives right now are outwardly focused with technology and the pandemic. And this was written before the pandemic. Um, I have always been a person who is very focused on feelings and emotions and thinking about relationships. And I really wanted to look at the different kinds of distances, physical, sexual, psychological, and emotional, and in our most intimate relationships. And so that was really the goal of this book. Um, and how do I do it? I think I often will start with, you know, for instance, the story Sargasso sea, where the, um, mother and daughter are on a trip and the stuff that daughter stocker, uh, follows them. Um, that's really a story to me about parenting adult children and, um, that relationship, that changes when you've been a parent, then they're no longer children, but you're still forging a relationship and you worry about them.
Speaker 3 00:12:17 And so that to me was about that intimacy between adult, children and parents. And it particularly, I think mothers and daughters, but I don't think exclusively mothers and daughters and, um, I, that started with, um, a lot of people I know were talking about this, I'm in an age group where our children are moving into the thirties and forties. Many of us have children who are not choosing to be in relationships and there's a kind of worry. And, um, I think also my generation is much more involved with their children. So learning to let go is a lifetime process. So, but I do, I, every story I start with sort of a problem Grace's mask began, came to me out of listening my own worries and commitment to climate change. But also I listened to a radio show that really moved me about, um, psychologists talking about the effect of climate change on children and some of the ways it was showing up.
Speaker 3 00:13:30 And, um, so it'll start, it starts in a different place. I don't always know exactly in the doctor's wife. Uh, I wanted that to be about, uh, one spouse choosing to focus on the world and the other one, focusing on the marriage and the tension that brought into the marriage. I think that was really relevant during the pandemic because so many people were going into hospitals to work and the other family member often had to take care of the home. And so I think, I don't know, I, it starts with sort of something I've been thinking about something I've experienced. Um, and then I try to find the voice and the place for it.
Speaker 2 00:14:16 One of the most honest things I think I've ever read about parenting camp for your short story, the dog, you open it with a daughter describing how the daughter now is going to seeing his family now in her parents, how they're going to fail her at various and crucial moments in our life. And I've thought about this now as I'm 28. And I've thought about my parents in different points in our life where I thought maybe they failed me and I, I would blame them for a long time to realize, I mean, they're, they're humans too. They're struggled to understand themselves. And they're hopelessly either depth that is other points and I've learned to have more compassion for them. And I, I think if I ever have children, it's one of those agonizing fears I think that I'll ever have is knowing that I'm going to have at some point, have no control over the outcome to help them in some way. And you've already kind of spoke about this, but I was wonder if you could talk more about that?
Speaker 3 00:15:06 I do think that we're all human. We make mistakes. And I wanted to actually write about from, and that particular story is told through a mission. And the arc of the story is the dog. The day they get the dog. And then when the dog dies and it's told through the mother and father and daughter's perspective, and I think often, even though we're a family, we are going through our own stuff and not everything can be shared in the family. And so in this particular story, um, they moved to Europe and the daughter doesn't want to go. She's a teenager. And, um, the mother has gone through miscarriages. Uh, there's a lot of grief already in the family, a lot of pressure on the daughter because that's their only child. They feel a sadness about being a family of three. And none of it is intentional.
Speaker 3 00:16:12 None of their mistakes are really intentional, but the daughter is, is it's a daughter ends up being raped in, in Rome and decides not to tell her parents, uh, because she, she doesn't want to worry them. And it's almost easier. She thinks to just deal with it or on her own this story. I almost ha took it in another direction, but I had to really sit with myself and think, what is this about? And I think it is about, um, truly the way we, we may love each other, but we do fail each other and we can't know everything. And, um, I think in the end, they, they are a family that loves each other, but the love is not always enough. And, um, and in this, I wanted to show a fan. I love a family that loves each other, but where the love wasn't enough to keep them from hurting each other,
Speaker 2 00:17:19 Caroline we're right now in the point of the program where I'm going to ask you to do another reading, if you don't mind.
Speaker 3 00:17:25 Okay. I, maybe I should read from that story. What do you think
Speaker 2 00:17:29 Please do.
Speaker 3 00:17:31 Okay. So I've sort of given the background of that story, but, um, let's see. Okay. I'll start at the beginning. When they bought the dock, they were a different family. The family they would become was there inside them, waiting to show itself. The moment the daughter about to turn 10 at the end of summer would begin to see her parents as people who could fail her at various crucial moments in her life. But they didn't know it yet. The parents didn't know they would fail their daughter and the daughter still felt safe, especially in the car, listening to her parents plan a dinner party. Why should we include them? The mother asks we've had them twice and we've never been to their house. Maybe they don't have parties. Her father replied, maybe they don't like us. They were driving south from Minneapolis on an empty four-lane highway, staring at farms, fields of red corn, waiting to be harvested.
Speaker 3 00:18:32 It was late August missed driving, rising off the Mississippi. The family had just returned from Paris, the father and daughter, miss the excitement of living in a foreign city where everything felt new, that flatness of the Midwest resonated with the flatness. They felt inside coming home to the same neighborhood, same grocery store, same English language, flat and dull. As the highway stretching before them only the wife was glad to be home. She was tired of feeling fat among the slender French women, tired of hanging laundry to dry pushing jeans. T-shirts nylons through wooden slats, pulling cords to raise the dry rack socks on radiators sheets, over closet doors. She had learned not to complain. The kitchen was small thin walls, rats scurrying around dumpsters below their balcony, vibrations from the Metro, waking them at night. The husband and daughter adored Paris and refused to hear anything bad about it. If the mother pointed out the Metro smelled of urine, they defended the urine. He said, declaring Americans had a sanitized version of the world. Then they would find something to dislike about Minnesota gas, guzzling SUV's toothpicks after meals, orange cheese. I'll stop it here.
Speaker 2 00:19:57 That was Carol reading from this distance we call love. So Carol, I want to lighten the mood for a moment. I want to, I want to ask about sex for a moment. The Ralphie's throughout these stories. It takes on many me, many meetings, euphoria pain, betrayal, disappointment. In a way, I guess when I kept reading this, I saw sex is treated a bit like how love is. And a lot of ways. It's another means towards intimacy that still leaves many of these characters at a loss to connect with this person they so want to be with. Is that accurate?
Speaker 3 00:20:33 You're an excellent reader, Jack. I, you know, I had mixed feelings about, um, writing about sex because, but I do think when we're writing about our most intimate relationships, it has to be a part of it. Whether you know, it it's such a big part of our lives. Whether people, whether it, my characters are having sex or not having sex or wish they were having sex, no huge part of their lives. And I think we're, it shows up in these relationships. It is. Um, I didn't want to just write about sex too, as a kind of, uh, a way of titillating or whatever. Uh, the reader, it was really part of the relationship and it felt necessary to explore, um, sex, the sexual lives of the characters in a few of the stories. I mean, it's not every story, but for instance, um, in the story where the wife had an affair and the husband just can't be intimate with her, I mean, that's important. That's part of their relationship in the story where the husband's a stay at home dad and his wife thinks he should get back to work and he's depressed. And he's almost become one of the kids. The power in the relationship has shifted. He wants more sex and she feels the relationship is so damaged. Um, she wants more communication. And so I, in that way, I think the sex is very important in the relationships
Speaker 2 00:22:15 I have. Let me see if we have enough time here. I want to add my last question. I think for you will be this, I noticed in your bio, you paint water colors and the Nader, the narrator in someone less perfect. They also paint watercolors and teaches. They teach once a week at a local community college. He can invest he confesses in the book that he doesn't think art could be taught. And maybe wonder what you thought about this. Do you feel the same way about writing?
Speaker 3 00:22:41 Very good question. I do think writing, um, I think that writing it's a blend of, of teaching and also people going deep within themselves and finding their own voices. So I think it's, I don't think, um, it can just be taught. I think there has to be some need in a, in both the artist or the writer to actually, um, in my opinion, the worst writing is writing. That is just sort of, um, a recipe. And I think so I, in that way, I think those kinds of those writing can be taught as a recipe, but I think the really good writing and the writing that I respond to is a mix of both learning how to write from. Um, I mean, I read books about writing still. I get, I get stuck. I'm, I'm starting something new. And I went to the books, the art, a perspective in the art of series that were, that is a, um, a wonderful series. And I just began to read it to think about the questions I have to ask myself. And I've learned a lot from other writers. Um, but I also think that at a certain point, it comes down to actually going inside yourself and finding your own voice and putting in the work.
Speaker 2 00:24:09 Okay. I totally lied. I'm gonna ask you this cause I'm very curious about it. So there is a line in someone less perfect that I'm going to read on air because I think is just such an incredible piece here. She saw things in me. I didn't want to see in myself and I hated her for it. Not true. Hate just a little hate, the kind that seeps in slowly when you live with someone over time. And I think this, this resonates with me because I just recently had a roommate move in with me. And I realized how every day we kind of learned how our own process, how we worked through stuff. And I realized, God, he frustrates me in so many levels. It's not a hatred, but there's something there that I Nozomi and there's points where he can critique my, my lifestyle that I know he's accurate. And it's holy, it's observant. And I have to be open-minded about this and I've never been married, but this had a ring of truth to it that I, I have to assume plenty of couples would admit if they're being honest. And I, I I've heard recently somewhere that being related with anyone is sort of like a constant exercise and forgiveness with this person. And I was wondering what your thoughts were on this.
Speaker 3 00:25:09 I think it's true. I mean, I think my husband, I'm sure he's listening downstairs is I'm sure there are moments he does. And I'm putting this in quote eight. Me. I mean, we ski every, especially through the pandemic. I mean, we S we people, whether it's roommates, friendships, whatever it is, you know, when you're living with somebody, you see it all, and it's, there is a level of, of, um, I mean, in that particular relationship, I do believe they were, they were becoming, the friction was growing. It was, uh, it was a, Hey, I don't know if I would use that in all relationships. Like, there's always a level of hate, but I think there is hate will arrive now. And then, um, because you do have to see so much to live with someone.
Speaker 2 00:26:03 I think that's a great point to end this conversation. You and just listen to my conversation with Carol. Die-ins talking about her short story collection, this distance we call love. Thank you so much for being on the show for
Speaker 3 00:26:14 Having me. It's been wonderful. Great questions, Josh,
Speaker 2 00:26:18 Take care. And now this
Speaker 1 00:27:01 Did that. Are you there? Oh, great. Welcome to right on radio. We're speaking, we're speaking with Jeanette Escudero, uh, author of the apology project. Uh, why don't we start with, um, a brief, uh, synopsis of the book and the reading that you have prepared?
Speaker 4 00:27:24 Sure. So, um, the apology project is about Emilia Montgomery, who is an attorney. She's been an attorney for the last 20 or so years. Um, top of the food chain, so to speak in the firm. And one day she finds herself, um, being given a case that she just does not feel comfortable taking one thing leads to another and she fired. So now at 40 years old, she finds herself unemployed. Her identity is linked to the job which she no longer has. And, um, in front of this, she really never, she doesn't have any longer cause she was so busy working that she didn't have a chance to really cultivate those relationships. So it's kind of a story about her finding herself again and, and rekindling old friendships and realizing maybe she hasn't been the best of the best person while she's was working and clawing her way to the top. Um, and then the, the, the part I'm going to read is that beginning, when she finds out that she's given this case, that just makes her uncomfortable. It's not the kind of case that she has ever taken. And she kind of has a, a, a second thoughts about taking this case.
Speaker 4 00:28:53 Should I begin? Okay, perfect. So about a few, uh, I guess I'll read like the rest of this chapter. Okay. Perfect. All right. Fisher Jones, Fisher, don't senior and Jones junior already in the conference room. When I arrived in fact, by the paper Strode along the long table, I think they've been there for a while. Maybe they had other matters to discuss. I'm not sure, but I pushed that out of my mind. Walk around, walk all the way around the table. And PoliSci good afternoon, gentlemen, Emedia. Hello. How are you? Jones senior says, and the other two follow the same script. A secretary comes in with a tray and serve this coffee. I don't know why I'm so aware of the silly mug this week, but it's not in front of me filled to the brim with steaming hot caffeine. I remember I left it in here a few days ago when I met with the team, a media senior repeats while clearing his throat.
Speaker 4 00:29:52 Are you listening? Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm good. Thank you. You, they don't answer. Instead. Junior slides a thick folder across the hardwood table. So we met with Phoebe this morning and here are our thoughts on your new case. They met with the client without me. I thought the meeting was now. That's not important. Fisher says, waving it off. We have a pie tailing, Rebecca, as you know, she's the one holding the reins on this case, we'd been hearing rumor that she frequents a little bar on eighth avenue and often leaves completely inebriated. If we can get her to back off, the others will follow suit. You're tailing, Rebecca. I parrot dumbfounded, but they ignore my question and I have good news. The criminal trial, the judge struck down the testimony of a man named Marcello McFadden. He was the nurse who worked with Vanessa plaintiffs B.
Speaker 4 00:30:47 He has video and firsthand knowledge of her psychotic episode in 2003. I think if we grab on to drugs, wait, I shake my head. As if I'm already hearing voices, I pick up a file and then put it back. Did I hear them correctly? Why are we contract correcting, excuse me? Why aren't they correcting me? I pick up the file again. Blinking slowly. Actually, actually I was not going to go that route. I flipped pages in the file, but I don't even know what I'm looking for. So I closed it and placed my thumbs over it. I closed my eyes for a moment and then start speaking. The cost of settle compared to a trial will save Phoebe substantial money. Has anyone suggested a fee of settlement to Phoebe? That's not an option. Fine. Then I think we can show that Phoebe was not present during the two of the altercations.
Speaker 4 00:31:37 I've been looking at the timeline of events based on the allegations and comparing them to the flight plans of the private. No, no, no, no. We're not doing that. I taught my fingers on the file a few times. My moves jerky, three men are staring at me. Why did I not realize that subservient position I'd been put in? When I walked in my back is against the wall literally. And these three men, the living embodiment of our letterhead are sitting directly across from me as if I'm on trial. They're not here to brainstorm. They're here to order me around red flags, start to pop up all over the place and I can feel my heart pick up speed. Not because I'm scared, not at all, but my temper, I feel it begin to approach flight or fight mode. That's it.
Speaker 1 00:32:24 Okay. This is Jeanette Escudero from the apology project. I'm wondering, um, well, let's start with just, what caused you to write this book? What inspired the apology project?
Speaker 4 00:32:39 So I, myself, I'm an attorney and I still practice and I do employment law and I see so many sexual harassment cases on a daily basis. And, um, I think that during the pandemic, do you know, just from working from home, I just saw the cases of the sex, like the sexual harassment cases, because they were more prevalent than they were before. I think it's because, um, women or the ones, I mean, I'm sure there's wonderful men that are doing this too, but for the most part, the women were the ones at home with the children
Speaker 1 00:33:15 Doing the homeschooling and, and all that. Um, you know, being at home with the kids and it was really hard to balance work and being a teacher. And I think, uh, our bosses expected us to perform miracles at times. And I saw such a big influx of those cases that this character just came up in my head and I just went with it. And, and that's basically where she finds herself kind of, um, you know, wow, I'm in a man's world here and they're pushing me around and you know, it's just not right. I think that's what happened. And, um, well, let's talk about the policy piece first. Um, you know, there's, it seems like apology is big right now, like between spiritual things and religious things and 12 step programs and all this stuff, it seems like everybody is apologized. And I'm wondering, uh, where you came up with the apology idea and also what your experiences may have been with it.
Speaker 4 00:34:17 Yeah. Well, these are kind of like the empty apology. Uh, she thinks when she finds herself without a job on her 40th birthday also without any friends, um, because she's lost them along the way, because just work kind of took over. She maybe had a little bit too much to drink that night. She kind of felt sorry for herself and, and decided I need to start apologizing to all these people that I've wronged along the way. So she makes a list and that's really what the, you know, that's what takes her through her journey, those, those apologies, but they turn out to not really be apologies in the sense that she realizes, wow. I mean, what am I apologizing for? Am I apologizing because I beat you in a case it's not my fault. I did a good job. Am I apologizing for, um, not attending your, your wedding?
Speaker 4 00:35:14 Well, I mean, I had to work. I, I I'm sorry I missed it, but I mean, I still had to do it and then it, you know, it turns out that there were people that she, you know, genuinely owed an apology to, but for the most part, some people owed her apologies and it's kind of that, um, that sense that women have that, you know, they need to apologize for even small little petty things. And, and that, you know, if they don't meet certain expectations, that society gives them that they have to say, sorry for that. When it's just, you know, we're, we're trying to call our way up the totem pole, like everybody else. And, you know, a man wouldn't apologize for some of these things. And that's where I've found myself. I've found myself throughout my jobs, especially because, you know, as an attorney, it's still a man's world.
Speaker 4 00:36:09 And, um, I've found myself apologizing here and there, here and there. And you know, when I look back, I think, wow, that's not something I needed to be sorry for. That's just, that was my job. You know, people have a right to representation and, and it, it is, it is what it is. I, why do I need to apologize for, for doing my job? So yes, I do think we live in a society where people are apologizing maybe more than they should. And, and, um, I think sometimes you have to stop and think, does this really merit a sincere sit down apology to that person? And I think we could probably say that it, doesn't not all the time
Speaker 1 00:36:53 Kind of like, I'm sorry for breathing.
Speaker 4 00:36:57 I mean, what am I, sorry for one, I did a better job than you. I do not have to apologize to you.
Speaker 1 00:37:04 Yeah. It's exactly like the nickname.
Speaker 4 00:37:08 Yeah. Sorry. I was more prepared than you. I mean, why am I apologizing?
Speaker 1 00:37:13 She does also, well, she gets the nickname of she demon, but I think sometimes from what I read in the book, she is just expecting people to do their job well.
Speaker 4 00:37:26 So her expectations are what she holds herself for her own expectations, if she's there on time. And she has to, she's accountable to her clients, she's expecting her insurance on her secretary and her assistant to do the same, maybe, you know, and I think throughout the book, she said, she realized, okay, there's ways of talking to people. Maybe I didn't have to snap at everybody at every turn. And you know, there's some, there's always two sides to every story and yes, she's at fault, but is she really the she devil or the, she didn't know what I mean? Or is this just a woman who's trying her best to do a good job? And I think ambitious women, especially in, in, in these, you know, tough jobs are, there's, you know, there's a stereotype that they're, you know, the B word and just, she double it. And, and, you know, it's just, that's just the shift doing their job.
Speaker 1 00:38:24 Um, it seems like one of the big things that we have been talking about already, but let's give it a name is the working in the male dominated world and what she has to do to, uh, hit the glass ceiling and try to punch through, uh, she has to kind of be the B word in the male dominated society. Would you say that's true?
Speaker 4 00:38:51 I mean, I guess it depends. What, what is the B word? Exactly. I mean, is it, but, but yeah, sending to a certain extent, she has to be tough. She has to be independent. She has to be no nonsense. Um, she can't giggle, she's just working, working, working, but it's the same thing the man is doing, and they're not given any sort of negative word and the B word is a negative word. So, you know, it, it does, you don't as an attorney, how many times have I not been referred to as you know, the be hurtful? Why, why am I the be, I mean, why? Because I, because I fought for my client and he's paying me to fight for him, that's my job. I'm not doing more or less than my male counterpart. So it's, it's a hard line. And I don't think anybody, I mean, I think as a woman in a male dominated world, sometimes a, we pretend we're proud of that term. Yes. Um, the B I'm the best, but it's not something that we ultimately want to be labeled as we just want to be people that do our job well. And, um, but yeah, I absolutely, I've been called that so many times.
Speaker 1 00:40:08 I totally understand. And, uh, in radio we have to do things down to the second and I get really annoyed with people who don't do things down to the second. And I get some of that myself that, uh, uh, uh, uh, well, you know,
Speaker 4 00:40:25 Following the rules
Speaker 1 00:40:27 Right. And trying to do, uh, try to do a good job and trying to, uh, uh, be, you know, um, and I I'm sure this is partly what, uh, Amelia is doing, uh, in the very beginning when she gets mad at the, uh, I think he's a clerk. Um, it's, you know, uh, my mother used to say, if I'm five minutes early, I'm late. And it sounds like she has those feelings too, because she's got to get her job done,
Speaker 4 00:40:55 Jessica, her job done. She was, you know, when I was an intern or when I was a clerk, that's how they were with me. I mean, that's just kind of the way we're programmed, you know, we work hard. We're always five minutes early, we're prepared. So our expectations for our staff, it's, that's what it is. And then maybe outside of work, I might not be that way, but we're, we're at work. And if you don't get to know me outside of work, you're thinking, oh my God, this woman's just the devil all the time. No, again, that's just my job. And I have the same expectation of you that I have of myself. So yeah. I mean, that's, that's really the theme of the book. You know, it's, it's, it's hard to be a woman in a male dominated world. Um, and then told that fine line of, you know, you, you, you don't want to be the stereotypical B word all the time, but, but if you don't, if you're not, then you get walked all over. So it's not easy.
Speaker 1 00:42:02 No, it's not. Let's talk a little bit about structure of the book. I felt like there were so many threads running through this, the, the apology and the woman working in a difficult world. And then also, what is it like when you don't have that to do anymore? And the romance piece? I mean, there was a lot of different threads running through the book and almost felt like a braided book. And I'm wondering how you kept everything straight in your mind.
Speaker 4 00:42:34 Well, so I am, um, I will tell you, I am not there's plotters, and pantsers, there's the people that sit there and they plot, which is the way you should, I guess you should write a book, right where you plot it and you have notes and you keep everything organized. I'm not that person. I wish I was, I I'm, I'm a Panther. I write like off the seat of my pants and I just write and write and write. And I, I do make little notes on the margins and I'll, and I'll put notes, like, come back to this later, don't forget this part. Don't forget to wrap up this storyline or that, but I just, it just kind of all comes together. And then I have an amazing team of editors at lake union, and I of course missed some plot lines. I've forgot to close some things up, and then they caught it. But, um, it's just, I don't know when, when I start writing, it might be all over the place, but it all kind of comes together at the end, um, in a nice way. And maybe it takes me longer to get there because I didn't plot it the way I should have, but, um, it kinda just works itself out. I hate to make it seem so easy cause it's not, but it just kinda does in my head, it does, I guess,
Speaker 1 00:43:54 Um, one of my favorite threads we've talked about threads in the book is Amelia going to Cuba and, uh, uh, exploring her roots that she discovered because of the DNA project that, uh, she did. And I'm wondering how your Cuban roots and heritage informed that story. Why?
Speaker 4 00:44:17 So I did want to, to talk about that or beat, or I wanted the Cuban thing to somehow come across in the book because it's so very much me and just my it's so integral in my life. So I I've in most of my books because I do have a pending where I write romantic novels. And I do have a lot of little Cuban influences and characters in there. And then in these lake union books, which w which are, um, more fiction, just like women's fiction books. I want to, I want to keep that Cuban thing there because it's just very much my voice and the way that I, that I express myself and just my heritage, but, um, I've never been to Cuba. It's I wasn't born there. My family's Cuban, and these are just stories that I've grown up listening to, um, from my mom, my grandmother, my grandfather, my husband's side of the family.
Speaker 4 00:45:18 So I did my research, I spoke to family and then I had them read those parts. And then, you know, I wanted to make sure that it was as accurate as possible because, um, you know, Cuba is not the, not the, you know, the way that people imagine that it's just this beautiful island with, uh, the antique cars, you know, it's, it has beauty, but it's also impoverished then it's, um, very family, the family unit is very important. So I wanted to make sure that that came across and then also juxtapose posed like what the people are going through there versus what she's going through. I mean, even there, the women have the same problems. They might be at a different, um, different circumstances, but the same problems there that they do here. I mean, if you're a woman and you want to work and you want to balance that life, that family life with work, it doesn't matter if you're in a third world country. It doesn't matter if you're in first world, it's not easy because you're still a mom and you're still a family. You know, you still have certain things that, that, that you want out of life. So I kind of wanted that too to show,
Speaker 1 00:46:35 Um, you've written series. And I'm wondering if, uh, this is really standalone or if we might meet with Amelia again, down the road,
Speaker 4 00:46:45 This is really truly a standalone. That is it for me. Uh, um, I do maybe want to write something about Nina, the sister at some point, but yeah, I liked that character and I, and I read some of my reviews and people seem to really like her. So maybe at some point I'll, I'll dive into that, but the next book it's, um, from lake union, it's called happyish and it's completely different, different characters, different storylines, truly, truly, truly. This is a standalone book.
Speaker 1 00:47:25 Well, I was going to ask you what's next so that we were running out of time here, but, uh, we can, uh, know what's next in your, in your, uh, projects and your writing.
Speaker 4 00:47:36 Yes. So I, um, I'm finishing the edit process for the next book, which is called happyish and, um, that one's completely different still at Cuban theme, as in there, my, my kind of sense of humor. We'll, we'll kind of go through the pages there as well, but, um, even, I don't want to tell you too much yet. It's, uh, it's different. It's different from this one a little bit more, um, it'll tug at your heart a little bit more, but yeah, but I, I really, I love how it's coming along and it should be out, um, the fall of 2022.
Speaker 1 00:48:19 Oh, wonderful. Well, this one tugged at my heart to get policy project for many reasons, all the different threads, the apologies, and her, uh, re-establishing her relationship with Lou Han. And there, there were several places where I got a little choked up.
Speaker 4 00:48:35 I mean, I don't want to say I'm glad to hear it, but I'm kind of glad to hear.
Speaker 1 00:48:42 Okay. I gotta let you go. We've been speaking with Janette Escudero, uh, about her book, the apology project, a wonderful, wonderful book about, uh, palsy is and women and, uh, all different kinds of things, little romance, too little, a little bit of everything and the apology project. So, well, thank you very much for, uh, uh, uh, talking with us tonight, taking some time out of your life, to, to speak with us. We really appreciate it. And thank you very much.
Speaker 4 00:49:13 Thank you so much and have a great evening. You
Speaker 1 00:49:15 Too.
Speaker 4 00:49:18 Buh-bye
Speaker 1 00:49:35 Before we a wrap right on radio up, I just want to wrap a little bit that you just mentioned that it is our membership drive. Uh, I hope you can support right on radio. And if you don't get a chance to do that, then, uh, support Mosher, Minnesota, or any of the other programs that we have on the air, we're getting pretty close to our goal, so help us get over it. Um, and then, uh, cafe i.org is where you can pledge. Uh, there's no one in the phone room right at this moment, but go to cafe. I don't work and it will tell you what to do. There's a big sign that says donate, and you have been listening to right on radio on KFA 90.3 FM and streaming live on the
[email protected]. I'm Liz olds. I like to thank our special guests tonight, Carol Pearson and Jeanette Escudero. Plus our listeners again, without your support and donations cafe, I would not be possible. You can find more news and info about right on radio at Cathy i.org/programs/right on radio. Plus you can listen to recent episodes on our recently launched podcasts found on Spotify, iTunes, Google podcasts, and anywhere podcasts can be found. Cafe i.org is the place to play. And now stay tuned for a Beaumont, Minnesota.
