Speaker 1 00:00:23 You were listening to right on radio on cafe 90.3 FM and streaming live on the
[email protected]. I'm Josh Webber tonight on, right on radio. Liz olds talks with Marilyn Peterson house about her memoir, half of a whole, my fight for a separate life, half of a whole explores the intimate bond between a twin brother and sister. The cruel consequences that occur when one of them becomes mentally ill and the courage required to break away. And one Bob is not enough.
Speaker 2 00:00:51 And I'm Annie Harvey in the last part of the hour, I'll be speaking with best Dooley about her book, the perennial kitchen, simple recipes for a healthy future. Best Julie provides a context of food's origins along with delicious recipes, nutrition information, and tips for smart sourcing, more than a farm to table cookbook. This book expands the definition of local food to embrace regenerative agriculture, the method of growing small and large crops with ecological services, all this and more. So stay tuned to right on radio. <inaudible>
Speaker 3 00:01:35 Marilyn Peterson house author of half. Oh, the whole Marilyn, are you there? Yes, I am. Hey, welcome to radio and radio. Thanks for spending some time in your evening with us tonight.
Speaker 4 00:01:48 Thank you. Um, um, it's a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 3 00:01:51 And would you start with a little bit about your book and your reading?
Speaker 4 00:01:57 Okay. My book is about the very unique relationship, intimate relationship between twins and then it's about the, um, devastating impact when mental illness strikes one of the twins and in my case, my twin brother, and how that impacts him and impacts me and all those around him. And then it goes on to look back to kind of deconstruct that growing up on that Minnesota farm. And when I, uh, look back to see, uh, look at it through new eyes and then how I moved forward, uh, to, um, to, to find my own independence so I can live life on my own terms. And what I'm going to read is really the two opening pages of my book. The admitting nurse thought I was an idiot. I could see it in her eyes. What took you so long? She asked peering over the top of her reading glasses.
Speaker 4 00:02:54 We've been waiting. It's been hours since you called Sharon sank into gold corduroy jacket. My hands trembled in my lap. What took so long if the nurse had seen me shaking outside mom's condominium on the frigid Minnesota morning, if she had heard the officer shouting, try to make it easy for him. And what does he do? Fights like a bull has to trash the place. If she had seen him Springs spit in my face, as he rented kicks his way down the hallway, shatters the glass door with a stocking feet. If she had heard me pleading with the officer to bring my brother to the emergency room, she wouldn't have looked at me the way she did it. Took six attendants to get him on the gurney. The nurse said leveling her gaze at me. The first set of shots didn't touch him. Had to give him a second round to bring him down.
Speaker 4 00:03:45 I had no idea. My twin was so strong. He had never gotten into fights. At least none that I knew about my knuckles had turned a bloodless, yellow. I unclenched my hands and wiggled my fingers while the nurse moved her pen down. The admitting form, Sharon shoved her permed Ash blonde hair away from her glasses left me to do all the talking about her husband. He's 45 years old. The nurse said noting the date, October 29th, 1941. When we were born, it's highly unusual that he's never been hospitalized. The first manic episode normally occurs in the early twenties. She stared at my stunned face. I stared back. Are there any people in your family who are manic depressive? She asked, no, everyone in our family is fine. She set the clipboard down and removed her glasses. This type of mental illness is very difficult to diagnose. If there's any history, any people in your family, maybe an aunt or an uncle information like that could help us determine what's going on with your brother.
Speaker 4 00:04:54 The nurse, watch me as I open and close my hands, rub my knuckles. I wanted to tell her how Dr. Doswell had never heard a second heartbeat. How mom had said, I told you. So after she gave birth to my twin, how dad's face had broken into a proud grin in the picture she took with her brownie box camera, one baby on each knee, Marilyn and Marvin, a girl. And finally, after waiting so many years, the boy he had wanted, but the nurse wouldn't care about any of that. I remember one time when Marvin seemed nervous, I said, what do you mean by nervous? She asked squinting at me through her glasses, nothing just that he seemed tense. I wanted to stop talking, but she kept staring at me. He was on leave from Germany and came to visit George and me. We were living in Connecticut.
Speaker 4 00:05:44 We'd only been married a couple of months. I remembered how his eyes had slashed with anger, his pale face, turning a deep red as he pounded the table while arguing with the long distance operator. It wasn't like him. I told the nurse, talking to the operator like that, go on. She said she scrawled notes. On the form years later, mom had told me about the rest of the sleeve, which he spent with them, how pastor Folden had driven to their farm to tell her something. Marvin should see a doctor. I asked mom what class? Pastor folding to make sister shocking suggestion. Well, anyone could see that Marvin was nervous. Mom said swatting, her curly red hair away from her face. I told Elsie what the minister said. She said, pastor Folden should be taken out and shot. I never dared to bring up the subject again. I didn't bring it up at the nurse. She would have made too much of it. So those are the first two pages.
Speaker 3 00:06:43 Oh, very powerful reading from a very powerful book, intense. And also I found it healing. Um, but let's talk about twins. First. You say, um, somewhere in the book you say that it's hard to answer the question, what's it like being a twin because even never been anything but a twin, but I'm wondering when you were young, when exactly you figured out that you were different from other people and also how you felt different from your siblings as a twin when they weren't twins.
Speaker 4 00:07:18 Well, that's an interesting question because I'm, I'm frankly unaware of when I actually realized that being a twin made me feel that much more close to my twin brother, then my oldest sister and my younger brother. In fact, I don't think I realized there was this intense relationship between twins until fairly late in life. Um, probably when I went into therapy after my brother's manic breakdown and I looked back, had to open up that reservoir of sorrow and grief I had. And that I think is when I realized that, um, my intense feelings for my twin weren't weren't the norm. You know, that that baby was unusual to be so connected that, uh, that I had felt this huge wound of the loss of that twin. I knew so well when I was, when I was small.
Speaker 3 00:08:15 How do you think living on a small farm in a small town may have kind of informed your relationship with Marvin Ben and also later in
Speaker 4 00:08:26 Life? I think that living on the farm it's on Western Minnesota, right at the beginning of where the tall grass Prairie, uh, it was before my great-grandfather homesteaded there that, um, growing up there in a very isolated farm, just, and the two of us, uh, spending all our time together, uh, in that kind of isolation. And my mother, who, of course, as a farm wife had on ending work, just like the farmers did, um, left us to our own devices for much of the time. In fact, we were very late to talk because she said we had developed a language between us, not a verbal language, but a physical language where we understood each other. So I think that risk of twins who, when they reach the age, when they're supposed to separate themselves and establish their own self boundary with us, the risk was real because I think when that happened, I took my twin into the boundary, my own self boundary.
Speaker 4 00:09:27 So he actually became a part of me, which is where the title of my book comes from half of a whole. He was really as though he were half of my own self. So I think the farm, the isolation and spending all our time together, certainly accentuated that tendency among twins as we got older. Um, I think the rootedness we developed as children never went away, uh, even, even when my twins, mental illness drove a wedge between us when he was feeling when he was on his medications and when he was, um, when we visited, um, because I had moved to the east coast, uh, that bond, those bonds still held us together. So I think the farm and growing up in the farm played a very significant role in throughout his entire life.
Speaker 3 00:10:17 Um, talk some to about, uh, excuse me, sorry. Uh, talk some to about the religious aspect of your growing up and how that affected you and also your relationship with Marvin and your whole family.
Speaker 4 00:10:34 Well, the, yes, we were raised as fundamentalist evangelicals. That's the, the segment of evangelicals that believe a literal interpretation of the Bible. And at the time I was growing up in the fifties at the time we were growing up, there were many rigid strictures. We were not to go to movies. We were not to dance. We were not to play cards. I couldn't knit on Sunday because that was considered to be work and don't work on Sundays. And so the religion, religious beliefs at that time increased the isolation that I felt. And so, um, uh, that, uh, also increased, I think my attachment to my twin and also what happened on the, the view of, of, uh, you were either a born again, Christian, or you were a sinner and you went either went to heaven or you went to hell was a very black and white view of life.
Speaker 4 00:11:31 And so I struggled with that through really most of my life, most of my adult life, that this, that you could look upon life through such a black and white way of thinking. And of course, life has many, many shades of gray, but it took me a very long time before I could understand. For example, my father is a farmer who could be very loving and take good care of these animals and then ship them off to be butchered. And that, you know, that he could be both those things and, and that all of us are like that we could be partly good and partly bad. Um, and so I think the religious, um, upbringing had a very strong impact on me. And on my way of thinking,
Speaker 3 00:12:17 Another thing you talk about in the book is, uh, favoritism between, uh, you and Marvin, and then you also expanded to talk about the favoritism towards boys and towards girls. And, um, how I know you've done a lot of therapy and we'll talk about that later, but how did you, uh, well you say finding a separate life, how did you find a separate life from that and begin to understand that it wasn't, that you weren't good enough and he was too much better than you, that it was just, uh, a thing, a way that the society happened to look at things at that time.
Speaker 4 00:13:01 Yes. Um, you know, the, the favoritism showed up very, very early. Um, um, when the one story that, um, I still am astounded at is when I realized, um, many, much later in life that my mother had kept me in a Walker for three months to keep me from walking before my brother, because he was to be the favorite child. He used to be, he was the first born son. He was the one who was to be the family leader. He was to be the one who took responsibility for taking over the farm, et cetera. And so that kind of favoritism continued through our lives. Um, and my mother, uh, you know, I never understood why I couldn't please. My mother, I just, I tried, I wanted her love. I wanted her blessings. I wanted her to champion me, uh, and I struggled to earn her love.
Speaker 4 00:13:56 And yet, as I became an adult, she was so critical of me. Um, she didn't, she was critical of my career to stay home and take care of the children. Of course, that was partly societal at the time. Um, she was critical even of the food I cook, she's critical of the way I raised my children. And, um, I didn't really understand why she, um, why she was so critical of me. And it took me, I think until, you know, I was maybe in my sixties before I confronted her, uh, before I was able to confront her. And of course the work I had done in therapy, which I gather we'll talk about later had, um, had, um, red flags for me, the relationship with my mother, um, my therapist had said we never got, we never broke through that barrier. He said it was too deep, too painful for me, even, he couldn't break through that barrier, but eventually over the next 15 years on my own, I got so, um, enraged at her constant criticism that finally I did confront her.
Speaker 4 00:15:03 And only I think after I confronted her. And at that point, she finally did back down just enough to admit she probably hadn't been fair to me. By that point, I had realized that my mother was not able to give me what I had wanted from her. Her value system was to help my brother and I could understand why that was the case. I also wanted to help my brother. And so when I finally accepted her value system, her point of view, and the fact that she would even for a few moments, uh, admit that she had been unfair. That was when I was able to accept that I could, you know, that I should not expect her to give me what she could not give me. And at that point, um, I think I reached the ability to understand which led me then to the ability to forgive. In fact, I think the forgiveness came rather automatically.
Speaker 3 00:15:57 <inaudible> now she wrote you a lot of letters and you returned the letter. So how did that feel in terms of her criticism? Was it different from verbal criticism to you? And I mean, you would have the letters to read over and over again. I wonder if you did that and, and how that all, uh, affected you.
Speaker 4 00:16:19 Yes. My mother was a great letter writer. I loved her letters except the ones that contained stabs at me, my, the criticism. So I kept all her letters, um, after my brother's breakdown and I would read them and reread them. Um, and yes, they were treasures to me, but then as she started to criticize me and more, more, um, explicitly, um, really, um, put some harsh, um, criticisms. And then, um, those letters, uh, kept, but I didn't read, reread them. And the only one I returned was the one she wrote to me when I had just graduated from college, uh, Augsburg college in Minneapolis at that time now university actually, um, where she returned the letter I had written, I had poured my heart into that letter. I had written it to her and my freshman year of college to thank her for all the wonderful things she had done.
Speaker 4 00:17:15 And then after I graduated, she mailed that letter back to me and said, she didn't want it. It was, she had treasured, or she didn't want it anymore because I was not the daughter. She thought it was. And at that point she thought I had moved away from walking in her footsteps. She wanted me to follow exactly in her beliefs and her religious beliefs. And I was stepping up to develop my own way of thinking. And I was heartbroken over that. That was one of the most devastating experiences I've had. And I think that's when I built that big wall around my relationship with her, that wall of insulation to protect myself. So that letter, I shred it, I didn't return it. I shredded it. And I burned the pieces. And my therapist said to me, when I told him that story, he said, she lost a daughter, but you lost a mother. And I had never thought of it in those terms. I had never thought of it that I, uh, you know, that that was how, what had happened in that, um, event.
Speaker 3 00:18:18 Let's talk a little bit about Marvin and the challenges that he faced, the mental challenge of bipolar disorder. Uh, talk a little bit about when you all were first recognizing that this was an issue.
Speaker 4 00:18:33 When he came home from Germany, he went into the military after he dropped out of Augsburg college, uh, in the middle of our sophomore year, he worked with my dad for a couple of years and he and dad had an antagonistic relationship. My father was so disappointed in that he wasn't the first one son that my father had envisioned. And so when he came back on a leave, I had been married a few months and he came to stay with us. He had this very loud argument with a long distance operator who was trying to help him. And he pounded the table. He turned red in the face and I had never seen that part of my brother. He had always been a gentle person. And after that visit, um, I thought, you know, he, something doesn't seem to be quite right, but it was 25 years later or close to 25 years later when he, when, uh, my family and I went to Minneapolis by then, we lived on the east coast, went to Minneapolis to visit my mother.
Speaker 4 00:19:32 And my twin was there. That's when he had a psychotic breakdown. And, uh, I mean, it was terrifying. We were absolutely frightened so badly and I had to call the police come and see if they could get him into the hospital. It was only then that he was diagnosed and, uh, up until then, we'd been able to overlook all the little hints and signs, you know, that had occurred. We, there was always some reason for it. And I always thought, well, you know, he's married. He has a wonderful daughter. And so he must be doing fine. He has a job it's working. And so it was very easy to talk myself out of, uh, any, anything you know, of my brother having any sort of a mental illness. So he was 45 at that point. And, um, uh, and that's very old, most people are diagnosed with, with, uh, bipolar disorder in their early twenties.
Speaker 3 00:20:30 I'm wondering if you ever wondered about your mom with her letters and, and the criticism and everything. I, I, I'm just wondering if you've ever wondered if she had some kind of a challenge mentally as well.
Speaker 4 00:20:48 Yeah, that's an interesting question. And when the nurse asked the intake nurse about, you know, our family, of course at that time, I was in complete denial and my mother, um, um, she, I, she had a temper that was for sure, but I didn't, didn't see the kind of manic energy my brother displayed when my brother was manic. He would be, uh, hyperactive. He would talk so rapidly and he would switch topics from one to the other without completing a thought. And he was irrational about many things and he, you know, he was loud. He became loud and, um, dominant and difficult to be around. My mother never displayed any of those kinds of symptoms. Um, she, um, uh, other than getting very angry and, uh, um, having, I think anger control, um, management, um, issues. I can't say that I saw any, any signs of, of a bipolar disorder in her.
Speaker 3 00:21:49 Were you ever worried about yourself? I mean, I know it didn't sound like you exhibited any symptoms of these things, but I'm wondering if you were ever just worried about yourself, especially when you, you know, made the choice to go on to therapy. If, if, you know, if these things concerned you about your, about your own self.
Speaker 4 00:22:08 Yes. Um, and in fact, when my, after my brother, my three children, our three children were with us when, when we had this forensic event of getting my brother into the hospital, they all looked at me with sort of terror in their eyes like, mom, this is your twin. This is going to happen to you too. Um, so they were afraid. Um, I never felt as though I was losing control of my mind. I mean, I watched his hallucinations take over his mind. It was so frightening to see him struggle, to retain his conscious thinking when his hallucinations were encroaching on what you know, and you could watch him almost flip in and out. I had never experienced anything like that. And, um, um, I think I certainly have periods of where I feel more energetic and other periods where I feel less energetic, but I've never, um, worried about, um, about myself having, uh, you know, being bipolar. Now, my therapist, once we were talking and he said, well, you have a very strong mind. And I think, um, he meant that, um, uh, I was not likely to, uh, you know, uh, develop symptoms like my brother.
Speaker 3 00:23:22 Talk about how you decided, uh, to go into therapy. It must've been a little, I don't know if scary is the right word, but it must've been hard to make that decision after having dealt with your or your brother.
Speaker 4 00:23:37 Well, you know, I was so tied up with my brother that when he had his breakdown, I felt like I was having a breakdown too. And I got back Massachusetts where we live and where I worked and I could think about nothing else, except my brother. I was so worried about him and I felt so guilty and I felt so responsible, um, for him and his wellbeing and that, you know, what was happening to my twin. And my friends said to me, you know, I, I was obsessing about it and they said, Marilyn, you know, you might need to talk to someone. And I knew that was probably the case, but of course I looked upon mental illness and needing to go to therapist with my own kind of stigma, but it didn't take me long to realize I just really needed help my life.
Speaker 4 00:24:20 I felt like my whole life was in my whole inner life was falling apart. And so when I got into therapy, I found this therapist an excellent therapist, and it took me half a year when he challenged me and said, you don't trust me. You know, why, why don't you trust me? Where I realized I had such issues of trust. And, uh, and then when I did trust him, I really turned over my whole inner turmoil to him. And yes, it took, uh, it took me that it took me until I felt like I was really about to fall apart before I was willing to say, okay, I think I need therapy.
Speaker 3 00:25:01 Yes. Um, I have so many more questions to ask that I do want to talk about your writing process a little bit, took you 10 years to write this book, uh, and eventually started taking workshops and got in a writers group. And I'm wondering how those workshops helped you and, and how the writing group moved you forward.
Speaker 4 00:25:23 Yes. The writing group is wonderful. Um, because you know, you can read books, which I did and you can, um, you know, get journals and read those. And I decided I was 67 when I retired from my career in business. And then of course I wanted, I decided I wanted, that was the same year my brother died and I wanted to write that story. And I knew I needed to learn some of the skills that went with it. So my very good friend, uh, taught a weekly workshop. So she invited me to join it, which I did. And what the reading, what that writing workshop gave me was reader feedback. I mean, you can study, don't use adverbs and get rid of the exclamation points and all of that. But, but it's the story you're trying to tell, um, is it being told the way you want it to be told, are the readers reacting to what you're saying or, uh, you know, or do you need to re rework it? So I think the most vital thing I got from the workshops was reader feedback. W how does the reader respond to what you've written? So from, from that point of view, and I've been in I've, I've still continued to go to, um, writing workshops right now, we're on a summer hiatus, but, um, uh, they have been a wonderful source of, of just that reader feedback.
Speaker 3 00:26:42 Want to ask you as an elder, I consider you an elder in that positive sense. Uh, what's next?
Speaker 4 00:26:50 Oh, I'm halfway through my next book and I'm not ready to reveal what it's about yet, but, um, yes, I'm working on it. And I hope to not take a decade to write this one, because yes, I am an elder. I'll be 80 in a couple of months. And I just want to say that for people who don't, who think they're too old to write, I didn't start writing this book until I was 70. And it's, um, you know, it's never too late to start.
Speaker 3 00:27:16 Oh, thank you so much. That's a good way to end our talk. Thank you. We've been speaking with Marilyn Peterson house author of half of a whole, uh, my, um, I got it written down the subtitle, my fight for a separate
Speaker 4 00:27:34 Life life.
Speaker 3 00:27:36 I just appreciate our discussion. You've been wonderful. I highly recommend this book to anyone. Uh, and, uh, so thank you very much and I will let you go now. Thank you.
Speaker 4 00:27:48 Thank you so much, Liz. I really enjoyed being on your show.
Speaker 3 00:27:51 Oh, great. Thanks a lot. Bye-bye bye-bye
Speaker 2 00:29:19 Hi, Beth. Welcome to cafe.
Speaker 5 00:29:22 Hi, it's lovely to be here and thank you. Can you hear me okay.
Speaker 2 00:29:26 I can hear you just great. Um, for anyone who's just tuning in I'm Annie Harvey and we are talking to the best Dooley, um, food writer, cookbook, author, uh, nonfiction author, and generally just interesting person here in Minnesota and nationally. Hi Beth.
Speaker 5 00:29:46 Hi, Annie. And you forgot to add a fan of KFH. Oh,
Speaker 2 00:29:50 Perfect. Perfect. So, um, you've written many a book, but we're here today to talk about, uh, your latest cookbook, the perennial kitchen for folks who haven't had the chance to pick it up yet. Could you, uh, give us a little rundown of the book and what it's, what it's about?
Speaker 5 00:30:07 Oh yeah, absolutely. You know, it, it, um, the intention was to shed a light on how delicious many of the foods that are being grown, using regenerative agriculture practices are. And so the focus is on perennials and on crops that can be integrated into some of our larger crops. So takes the idea of our local food system does focus primarily on fruits and vegetables and scales it up a little bit, looks at the bigger picture to talk about food that's being grown across the countryside. Um, especially in our region that has the potential to, uh, regenerate our landscape, to protect pollinators Harbor, wildlife, um, maintain our, um, and improve our topsoil, um, prevent runoff into the Mississippi river, which is adding to the dead zone. So it has so many wonderful benefits, environmental benefits that, um, and also it's delicious. I mean, it's, it's not either, or it's both
Speaker 2 00:31:14 Right. That is so excellent and exciting. Um, you've been working in and writing about food for decades, and I was just wondering how perennial kitchen and how this idea of perennials and regenerative agriculture plays into your previous work in food and food writing.
Speaker 5 00:31:32 It's a great question. You know, it's, it's one more layer of the onion that I keep peeling back. I mean, I think food is such a lens into so many things in our lives, into everything in our lives. It's a lens into culture. It's the lens into our history. It's a lens into, um, you know, our natural world. It's a lens into how we relate to each other and our natural environment. And so the work that I've done previously focuses on the Northern Heartland as a terroir, as a region that, um, really can be defined by, by its culinary practices. And then I got interested in what was here before the colonists arrive and, and, um, and I met Sean Sherman, the indigenous, um, uh, you know, the, the sous chef indigenous, um, contemporary induced American cuisine. And we worked together to a, it was really Shawn's brilliance that brought that book to light, but I learned so much.
Speaker 5 00:32:31 And so in following, you know, what those indigenous practices were, or they continue today, um, how, how are they now informing different ways that we grow food? Um, and so when you look at some of the very contemporary practices that are being brought forward by our regenerative farmers, they're really embedded in a lot of those traditional heritage practices, but they are harnessed to, um, modern technology and a really exciting way. So I think, you know, for me, it was a way to kind of look at how we can rely on some of that ancient wisdom and use it to solve some of the problems that have been created by the way we live now.
Speaker 2 00:33:24 Yeah, absolutely. Um, the idea of combining new information and even new things like your talk about kernza and other kind of newer grains that contribute so nicely, um, into present day agriculture and fill needs, but also to use the, um, ancient knowledge that our fellow Minnesotans, um, Lakota and other native nationalities are using use that ancient wisdom. I really love the way those two things fit together. And that's the reason I'm so excited about this book.
Speaker 5 00:33:55 Oh, that's great. Thank you. Yeah. So you and I are both fun. Good. No, so say it's, it's really, it's been really fun to, you know, I mean, there's so much bad news about our food system right now. We're just getting pummeled with horror stories and I'm such an optimist that yeah, I'll read them, but I really think that we're smarter than that.
Speaker 2 00:34:19 Yeah. Um, time to play into another pervasive negative thought and how you counter it. So we've all heard jokes. You and I are both Midwesterners. There's a well-worn cliche that the Midwest is just picky eaters and bland food and very few ingredients. Um, I want to ask you, but optimist best to Beth Dooley. How true do you think that is and why?
Speaker 5 00:34:42 You know, I, I think it's, let's see, how do I put this? I don't think it was true in that way. Um, I think, yeah, I think it's true because we are a culture of home cooks, frankly. And for years and years, our restaurants were, were really not very good. And so people who traveled here had the experience of places like Murray's, which isn't bad, but it's, you know, it's steak and potatoes basically. And, um, w you're probably way too young to remember, um, Becky's cafeteria, which was really steam table food. The people came and paid, paid money for it, swampy broccoli and that kind of thing, but the people that could make the, and that was because, you know, most people cooked at home. Yeah. And I remember moving here. I mean, we moved, we moved here over 45 years ago. And when I ate in people's home, I was blown away by how good the food was, because typically it was fresh garden fair, or the, um, E ingredients they use came from the farmer's market.
Speaker 5 00:35:46 Um, and then when you look at the emergence of our farmer's market and the influence of the mung and the Mexicans, the Guatemalans Somali, and you look at how bold and, and, um, interesting their flavors are, and begin to realize that, you know, those are the ingredients that took a while to get into our grocery stores and our restaurants. Yeah. But, um, but the people that were using that home were doing some pretty interesting things. And then it also took a while for those immigrant communities to establish themselves to the point where they could open a restaurant and share their cuisine. So I think that may have been true on the restaurant scene 40 years ago, but it certainly has evolved pretty quickly over time.
Speaker 2 00:36:30 Yeah. Yeah. I always, I feel like I always get to surprise people when they visit me here in Minnesota. Cause like there are great Ethiopian restaurants near me and there are great Vietnamese restaurants near me and stuff like that. And it's fun. And it's interesting to learn that those are a relatively recent development, but that feels like a trend in a positive direction. Um,
Speaker 5 00:36:51 Exactly. And now we have one of the first truly amazing indigenous, you know, contemporary indigenous restaurant in alumni. Oh yeah. Which is, oh my God, it just it'll blow you away. It's beautiful. The food is really contemporary, but down to earth and absolutely delicious and, um, elegant and simple and earthy all at the same time. And those are the foods that Sean uses are all indigenous to this area. And I find that terribly exciting.
Speaker 2 00:37:22 Yay. So this is just a Sam, this is a Sean Sherman fan podcast. Now we're just, we're just about yeah. So to delve back into it. Yeah. He's so great to delve back into perennial kitchen a little bit. Um, so I really recommend perennial kitchen to anyone who wants to learn more about where food actually comes from. Um, like I don't know if this is just me as a nineties child, but a lot of people I know who grew up with parents who had awesome white collar jobs, but like in the city, um, don't necessarily know like where things come from on a farm or what's exactly in season at a different point in time. And, um, it was only when I lived with my grandparents who grew up on farms that I really started to learn what's in season when and how different, uh, weather phenomena or such, uh, really affect food prices.
Speaker 2 00:38:16 And perennial kitchen is a great tool because in addition to all the recipes, um, sections of the book provide education about so many things that I didn't know, I didn't know about like the, apparently there were a ton of different kinds of garlic that are all different or, um, what different kinds of animals like heritage hogs that exist and, um, stuff about the university of Minnesota apple program, which I love because I'm a Honeycrisp sucker. Um, and I want to know about your food research process because there are just so many really interesting things confluencing here in this book.
Speaker 5 00:38:52 Thank you. You know, that was so much fun because again, it's like peeling back the onion or following the thread. I mean, if you're curious about where flavor comes from, then the fun is trying to figure out what informs that flavor. Right. And so for me, that meant reaching out to these farmers, to these researchers, to, um, uh, ethnobotanists and soil ecologists and, uh, you know, people that could provide me answers around those very things you just mentioned. Right. It's like, wow, you know, how, like, what is currency? I mean, it's, it sounds really cool, but what is it and how did you do that? And then just understanding the history of wheat and knowing that wheat was once a perennial, because weed is a grass that these researchers, um, it Don wise and west Jackson for instance done Wisemans with the university of Minnesota founded the forever green initiative and was Jackson is with the land Institute and Salina, Kansas.
Speaker 5 00:40:02 They both said, Hey, you know what? This is crazy. I mean, we, we can be printing realized it's the grass. And so they then spent almost 50 years working on hybridizing, um, you know, wheat to really perform like grass. And when you think about it, the grass in our backyard comes back every year and a keynote, the same thing can happen with wheat. There's no reason why I can't. So that was, that was work being done intentionally to grow that crop. And then you look at some of the other crops that have always been here, like hazelnuts or elderberries that are really, really good for the landscape that have primarily been ignored because they've been displaced by corn and soy. So if we can return some of those to the landscape, because they, they are indigenous, they grow well here, same thing with cranberries and blueberries and some of those other very fruits they're they're perennial plants.
Speaker 5 00:40:58 And, um, and they provide delicious foods. So breeding more of those and getting farmers to use more of those in the landscape is important as well. Sweet. Um, in addition is fun. It was fine to just sort of, you know, begin to, you know, discover or rediscover those things, or, um, and also I think, you know, farmers, researchers, um, uh, plant geneticists, um, you know, people that are involved in this work aren't ness are, they're not great communicators men at the time. So, so you haven't really knew about was going on. And I thought it was fascinating. So I just felt like my job was to amplify that and to share what I thought was really exciting with other people that thought so too.
Speaker 2 00:41:43 Yeah, absolutely. And I think the book brings the enthusiasm in really well, and there's such a joyful embracing of everything that Midwestern food encompasses from like what we were talking about, about Sean Sherman and different, uh, Lakota and Ojibwe food traditions to also, uh, Scandinavian European recipes that people think about when they think about more of like a little house on the Prairie kind of Minnesota. Um, tell me about kind of cross cultural food education and how that plays a role in this cookbook.
Speaker 5 00:42:13 Well, you know, I think, I think what's interesting to me is food is a great way to, to even teach about culture or history or math or just about anything. And I think what's to that as so many for schools, um, don't teach food literacy, you can dial food into almost any, um, topic into any discipline. So to me, I mean, it's, it's really fun. Like you said, you know, why not find out what brought the German Mennonites to Minnesota and, and how did they live when they got here? And then what was the foundational economy of our area? Well, it was weed. It was wheat that those German Mennonites planted and who decided that you could mill wheat here? Well, it was Kettlewell or Washburn who happened to grow up and be the son of a lumber Baron who saw the power of the Mississippi and saw that that would be a, a good place to build a mill, but also realize that you couldn't mill lumber there because we didn't have the right kind of lumber at the time. And so, but we did, we could grow a lot of weights. So, I mean, they're all, you know, and people don't remember facts, the kids aren't going to remember, you know, there was a, you know, a mill built in 18, whatever it was. Um, but we'll remember the story of Cadwallader Washburn who moved here from Maine because his dad was lover beard, you know, those kinds of things. Right. It's yeah. Yeah. And then when they have a piece of bread, maybe they'll remember that.
Speaker 2 00:43:42 Yeah, absolutely. And to stay on the, stay on the grain train here. So the book opens on this section that is called the perennial pantry, and it talks about a huge variety of grains, beans, flowers, oils, nuts, and sugars. Um, and it kind of incorporates a lot of the elements you've been bringing to the table of culinary advice, but then also ecology and history of foods. Um, I think this section rocks, because it really welcomes to the table, anyone who hasn't always been an adventurous cook and might just like, you know, have some canola oil and some wheat flour and not really know where else to go from there. Um, could you elaborate on the value, both environmental and kind of more social cultural of, um, varying up the old pantry staples?
Speaker 5 00:44:28 Yeah. Well, I think, you know, that's a great question and I perhaps, what, what really drove everybody to think hard about their pantries was COVID because suddenly we're talking back into the lives of our grandparents, perhaps where, you know, you didn't have the capacity or the time or the energy to go shopping every day. Right. And, um, and so having a really stable pantry was important. Um, first of all, it's, it's more economical, but second, it allows you to create a lot of different meals pretty quickly without, again, having to rush out and buy things. Um, and it makes sense because as we're all beginning to transition to more of a plant-based diets, those foods are shelf stable. And, um, and they're grains and beans, which when they're combined are terrific proteins. So, and they're very, very helpful, and we're all looking for ways to cut back on sugar and salt fat, and those kinds of things. And these foods are naturally delicious. And if you have this in your pantry, you can build just about anything from a soup to a pilaf, to a, um, a casserole or, you know, there are lots of different things you can do with it. So it's, it's that thrifty mindset that I think, um, generations before us practiced pretty readily.
Speaker 2 00:45:50 Cool. Um, I heard the phrase plant-based diet in there, and I kind of want to expand on that a little bit. So just quick brief paranthetically Annie moment. Um, I, whenever I get a cookbook, the first things I look for are like the beanbag and nut based on trays, because I'm a vegetarian, um, I grew up eating meat and then I quit meat, uh, to boycott factory farms. But that said, I saw that this book has a mix of meat and non-meat entrees, and is really honest about the considerations of meat consumption and even highlights some farmers who are formerly vegetarians, but now produce grass fed pasture, raised animals and giving people options for if they, uh, their particular health is better when they eat meat, but they also want to divest from factory farms. Um, so in your conversations with experts about different grains and different ways to build a balanced diet, um, is climate centric or health centric, red meat reduction, still something that gets suggested a lot or our re-imagined farming practices kind of nixing that.
Speaker 5 00:46:55 Well, I think, you know, it's, it's all of that, it's everything you just described because what we're finding is, or, you know, what farmers are realizing is if they integrate their farm so that they're both growing a lot of different things, they're growing foods and rotations. So there, they have cover crops that are maybe grains that are edibles, barley oats, along with currents or different varieties of heritage wheat, for instance, and vegetables and garlic. They also really benefit from having animals on the land as well, because those animals provide the nutrients that they need to be able to farm longer than the season. And then they also provide an income stream through the winter when they don't have crops. And so having an integrated farm is really important for, for soil health, um, for right, and for, um, for income. And then those plants and, you know, for cattle, for instance, cattle are raised on grass is prayer for grasses, and this Prairie grasses are wonderful carbon captures. So that adds another benefit to, you know, another reason why it's important, especially for a Northern farmers that don't really can't farm all year long because we really only have one big farming season. Um, it's very difficult to make a living just growing vegetables. Totally.
Speaker 2 00:48:31 Yeah. That makes absolute sense. Um, to stay kind of talking about, uh, climate land care, et cetera options. Um, so it's really easy these days to feel hopeless and kind of mildly nihilistic about humans and climate change. Like every time it seems like there's a new sustainable option. You find out that it's sorta just like buzzwordy or, um, a lot of things that are, uh, sustainable are really cost prohibitive. And I really appreciated how this book brought sustainable out of the buzzword zone and talked about like specific places in the Midwest that you can buy food grown with regenerative agriculture or, um, describing different types of food that are called foods for our future in the book that are nourishing whole foods that are good for the way our soil and land currently are. Um, if you are talking and you are because we're on air right now, um, if you're talking to someone who's feeling burnt out on climate, some little listener in Minneapolis, burnt out on climate change, worries to focus on a manageable first step or a change to feel hopeful about with regards to human food, um, what might you offer?
Speaker 5 00:49:46 I would offer to be quite honest, not to try every do everything at once. You know, I think that does pay for an out a cycling on a diet or something. It just sends you into the reverse overdrive and guilt. Isn't going to change behaviors at all, but knowing that maybe going to the farmer's market and buying some beautiful local dried beans, if you go to, um, go seek out a Hmong farmer, who's growing, uh, some different, um, kidney beans or, uh, black, um, black IPS, you know, and bring those home and cook those and pair them with a local barley or local Oak growths. Those are all marked in the bands in the co-op. You can buy them in bulk and then add to that, maybe some local vegetables and try doing something like that. Maybe once a week, you begin to get the feel of how to eat that way.
Speaker 5 00:50:40 And it's so easy. I think that's what people forget. And people often resist buying those foods because they're perceived as being more expensive. When in fact there's nothing cheaper than creating proteins with grains and beans. So it's a very extensible really simple way to begin to change how you think about food and how you eat. And I think, again, start slowly because this shouldn't be, this shouldn't be a should, this should be joyful at the end of the day, food needs to be joyful and celebratory and relaxing. Um, give us the strength to carry on the good fight, right? Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:51:18 It's so nice to get like a local apple or a local tomato that just like genuinely is so flavorful. And doesn't kind of just taste like wet, like something that's sat in cold storage for a long time, just like a nice distinct tasting piece of food, which kind of brings me into our last question. Unfortunately, we have to wrap up, but I need to talk about the photography in this book because it is absolutely mouthwatering. And I know you worked with a photographer, I believe Metta Nielsen. I apologize if I'm not pronouncing that right. But talk to you about that.
Speaker 5 00:51:51 She's book, she's an absolute genius. It's met a Nielsen and she's an amazing photographer. She's also an incredible gardener. She's a Danish. And so her sense of light is just exquisite. I think it's in her DNA. Her sense of artistry is just, you know, these Danes have this incredible, um, just way of viewing the world and seeing the beauty in the natural world is so she has been really wonderful in partnering with me on, on all of my books and in saying, you know how to bring those recipes to the page. She's, she's just a genius. And we often just brainstorm about, you know, what to make and what's gonna look best. And, um, and you know, it's really a partnership.
Speaker 2 00:52:39 Cool. Well, this energy is very clear because everything looks so mouthwatering and perfect, but it all matches so nicely with the recipes. And it's cool to hear that she's been a consistent creative partner to you throughout projects.
Speaker 5 00:52:53 She really has. And she's just a lovely woman, too.
Speaker 2 00:52:57 Yeah, well, uh, unfortunately that's our time, but I want to thank you so much for having you here. It's been so much fun and I am really excited to hit the grocery store on the way home, maybe hit Seward or something and, uh, get something fun to, I
Speaker 5 00:53:10 Love it. That's great. That's great. Yeah. That's wonderful. Yay. Well, let me know what your end up making.
Speaker 2 00:53:15 Yeah. Thank you so much. Uh, take care of yourself and everyone. This has been Beth Dooley talking about her newest cookbook, the perennial kitchen, um, from the university Minnesota press. And it is excellent. Check it out for your summer potluck needs. Thank you, Beth.
Speaker 5 00:53:32 Thank you, Annie. It was my pleasure.
Speaker 3 00:53:44 You have been listening to right on radio on cafe AI, 90.3 FM and streaming live on the
[email protected]. I'm Liz olds. I'd like to thank our guests tonight, Maryland Peterson house and best Dooley plus our listeners without your support and donations cafe, I would not be possible. You can find more news and info about right on radio at kpi.org/programs/right on radio.
