Speaker 1 00:00:21 You are listening to right on radio on KFA 90.3 FM and streaming live on the
[email protected]. I'm Josh Weber. And tonight on, right on radio, Liz talks with Janice post white about her memoir standing at water's edge. It's her story about working as a cancer nurse who thought she, what life and death were about until her four year old son got leukemia. This heart wrenchingly real, but inspiring book shines a light on a life affirm discoveries that can be made. And when one is forced to face death and bravely choose to face fears, then the last part of the hour, we do a deep dive into the right on radio past playing one of our special legacy interviews, all this and more. So stay tuned to write on radio.
Speaker 2 00:01:50 Good evening and welcome to write on radio. I'm Liz Olsen. I'm gonna be interviewing Janice post white author of standing at water's edge, a book about her, uh, son having leukemia and her journey through that. Uh, uh, so welcome, Janice. Can you hear me?
Speaker 3 00:02:11 Yes, I can. Thank thank you very much, Liz inviting me.
Speaker 2 00:02:14 Oh yeah. Well thank you for having coming. Uh, we appreciate people who come in on Tuesday evenings to share their time with us. Um, why don't you start with a little, I gave little, uh, uh, description of the book, but why don't you start with a little bit more description of the book?
Speaker 3 00:02:31 Okay. Well, it, it is a story about a cancer nurse who becomes a cancer mom. When her four year old son is diagnosed with leukemia and the most important thing is he survives. And yet she dreams of his death, which forces her to face their fears or be haunted by them forever. And it's a memo, of course. So the story is my story. When Brennan was four years old, he was diagnosed with leukemia and I was a cancer nurse researcher and an educator at the university. So I knew what to expect regarding treatment options, side effects and how to navigate the healthcare system. But I had no training as a cancer mom. Mm. And that's what I struggled with. How do I be a nurturing mom? When my natural tendency is to solve problems, get them an treatment and advocate for my son and make decisions.
Speaker 3 00:03:22 And I felt responsible for both guiding him and my family through that three years of treatment. So I did what I knew back. I buried my feelings and flew into action. Well, blooded me, well, drew pictures the first day in the hospital, he asked the paper and colors and <affirmative> wanted to share what he was feeling. And so, while I buried, he drew and many of those pictures are in the book. Um, the first one that I always like to talk about is so PO is that he he's a little yellow bird. He doesn't say he's the little yellow bird, but he said, there's, um, there's no way to get in. There's no windows or doors. And it's hiding in the attic of a house with a warning to stay away. And then the next day he draws the same little yellow bird with polka dots, all over him, indicating of the number of pokes that he's had.
Speaker 3 00:04:19 And then he whispers to me and said, now you can get in the window mom. So he let me in, but it was very revealing on how he processed his emotions through the journey while I buried mine. And after three years of treatment, he survived and we took up our protective armor and reclaim our childhood birth. But a decade later I had dreams that he died and it was just, the memories had just weasel their way into my DNA. And I remained hypervigilant. And that's when I realized I had to face my fears or they got me forever. So I started writing this book and I guess the most important thing I, I learned is that how important it is to reflect on our, how illness shapes our lives and reframes our priorities.
Speaker 2 00:05:09 Do you have a little reading for us to do that? Do you have a little reading for us that you can do
Speaker 3 00:05:15 Is again,
Speaker 2 00:05:16 Do you have a little reading for us that you could do from the book?
Speaker 3 00:05:18 Oh yes, I do. I'll start with chapter one. <affirmative> which starts on a day of diagnosis, which is January 9th, 1997, 2:40 PM. When and lay stretched out high to top the pediatrician's Oak examining table. Even at age four and a half, he reached across the entire lake half reclining on his left side facing me, perhaps watching me. He leaned on his left elbow and tossed every few seconds to reposition the way the pain in his thin long legs. Hi, Brennan Beck. Again, the nursing assistant said, as she walked in, sat down a tray of supplies, swiped his finger with a punch and alcohol swab and pricked his middle finger with a tiny Lancet. He watched as if observing a science experiment as the red drops, divide gravity and rose up the capillary tube. He didn't cry of the assistant wrapped in a minute to Donald luck bandaid.
Speaker 3 00:06:19 I asked if she could tell me what his lab results were from his last visits two week earlier, I didn't bring him in. I said she nodded and went out to check for me moments later, she slipped in and quietly closed the door behind her. She hesitated and then recited his white coat, 6.5 and his hemoglobin was 8.6, 8.6. I thought composed, but incredulous. I knew that his white count was fine, but normal values for hemoglobin were at least 12 to 13 grams per deciliter. Anything lower Meem a hemoglobin below nine was serious. I looked straight into her eyes as the nurse and me Tapp down the rising panic of a mother's worst fears. Why weren't we told she gave us sympathetic, shrug and dashed out of the room as scared at the closed door. I wouldn't let myself consider the significance of the low value. So I focused on the lack of disclosure. Anger was easier to face than fear. Why hadn't they told Lori or nanny who had brought him in the day before Christmas? I'm certain she would've told me, did they think it might be an error? I was afraid to believe it could be real. I tried to breathe to stay in the moment, ignoring the diseases, shouting their textbook headlines that I headlines just that morning. I had considered infectious disease. I couldn't imagine a common virus causing sporadic fevers and intermittent pain.
Speaker 3 00:07:50 All I could do was wait for the new results. I stood next to Brennan my hands gently resting on his legs. I took a deep and asked, how are you doing? Okay? He said with a blank expression, I'd like to imagine that I was channeling energy from the universe to help his body heal, or at least to disperse the pain in his legs and give him strength or tolerate it. I wanted my touch to reassure him, to tell him that there for him, I wanted to be present for him. As I envisioned a concern, mother might be thinking about how he must feel. Instead, my nurse, mine churn with uncertainty collecting and sorting the ambiguous facts and data, trying to calculate the events of a past two months into some coherent picture.
Speaker 2 00:08:42 That's Janice post white from standing at water's edge, a book about her son's journey through leukemia and her journey through leukemia too. Um, I'm curious if you would talk a little bit about Brennan and Tyler before the diagnosis and you know, what they were like and what they liked to do and so on so that we can get a picture of these, uh, young men.
Speaker 3 00:09:04 Well, as many children are in a family, they're very different. Um, Brennan was the oldest and, uh, he was, he loved sports. Uh, we teased that he came out of the room, dribbling the ball, anything with a handout, handball coordination, BN was active, busy, constantly talking and engaging and asking questions. And Tyler was the quiet one. He was the follower, but a astute observer. And so through the process of auto leukemia, I think the characteristics were amplified into who the person, what the personality underlying was. Mm-hmm
Speaker 2 00:09:49 <affirmative> um, what was Brennan's first reaction to finding out that he had leukemia? Was he scared? Was he numb? Was he, uh, what was his first reaction?
Speaker 3 00:10:04 It's a little hard to know because he hid his emotions at first mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I remember just that afternoon, I brought him home from the doctor's office and then we, you know, packed a bag and got him the car to go. And he strapped in the back seat and he asked me, so what's the plan mom. That was his, his first reaction what's gonna happen. You know? And it actually wasn't until the next morning at the hospital that when my husband, when his dad told him more about what the leukemia was, I was so busy doing, I didn't even stop to talk to him about it. It was just a matter of getting this kid an IV and getting blue and started getting everything, you know, ready to go. I was busy taking care of all the details. It was my husband who said, Hey, let me tell you a little bit about it. Soren was stoic and he didn't talk about it much. He just, you know, did what he was told to do. And then later on, he saw years later, he told me as a four year old, I did what I had to do. That's all I knew.
Speaker 2 00:11:09 And what was, well, it sounds like your reaction was to become mom, nurse, but, uh, talk more about that, how you, uh, navigate that, uh, being a nurse and being a mom at the same time.
Speaker 3 00:11:23 Well, that was probably the hardest part for me. And it was only being a nurse was so much easier. I've studied patients with cancer. I, I knew what to expect. It was so much easier what my nurse had. I'll tell you, living with cancers a lot harder than studying it. And that's why I wrote the book is you've gotta pay attention to your feelings and your emotions. And I get the bottom line is I learned to live on my heart as well as my head. And that's what I learned. I had to learn how to be a nurturing mom and be there for my son, not for my son as a cancer patient. Mm. And it took a, it took some reminders for my kids. And it took the process of thinking through and reflecting on what the experience meant before it really came to light. For me.
Speaker 2 00:12:13 Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, Brennan went into a special treatment protocol, correct?
Speaker 3 00:12:23 Well, he's been a clinical trial. Okay. And, um, it was standard treatment for someone diagnosed with, um, B L a L, which is what he had. And there was only one clinical trial available. And we had the choice whether to put, put him on it or not. And we chose to, um, because there, you know, there aren't very many children diagnosed per year around the world. These clinical trials are all across the United States, as well as around the world. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, um, it took five years to get 2000 kids in this trial. So they usually only test one trial at a time. And that's what he followed. But because he was in a clinical trial, we had to follow the roadmaps of the trial.
Speaker 2 00:13:12 And what were some of those roadmap?
Speaker 3 00:13:15 Well, there were monthly plans of, you know, little tiny print of what you did, what they, and what drug you got and why. And, um, yeah. It, for someone not familiar with the clinical trial, it's very prescribed. And when you bury from it, you have to have a reason and like counts, go lows, white counters, hemoglobin wet lows, and you had to cut back on the doses and the clinical trial spells it all off for you. So that the first 11 months were the most intense part of the treatment. And then he goes into maintenance phase, as long as his bone marrow biopsy showed that he had less than 95% blast, which for him they did. So we followed that treatment plan for three years and two months, although we made a couple of modifications along the way because of complications, which is pretty standard practice,
Speaker 2 00:14:10 I would imagine some of these treatment, like bone marrow, uh, thing, uh, would hurt quite a bit. Did how did Brennan go through that pain?
Speaker 3 00:14:22 Well at our institution and at many when the kids are that young, they sedate them. And that's what they did now. Today there's a little controversy over whether it's all that healthy to give a, all that prop fall every week or every month mm-hmm <affirmative>. And then eventually it was every three months, but I don't know, he's a strong kid, but what he hated worse was the swirling tornado. He called it of the prop fall. Um, and that's what he remembers most about the experience. Whenever you ask them, after the fact, it was that swirling tornado, dizziness, that he hated getting ready for the biopsies and the aspirations. And they had to get intrathecal chemotherapy into those spine in notice to prevent central nervous, some relapse. And so that was hard for him now, the teenagers and the older kids, often they get conscious donation and some verse or something like that. But a long time ago, we used just used distraction, you know, blowing bubbles and reading them a story. And, and then they really did have to endure the pain. Wow. Hard to go through it with those little kids, especially.
Speaker 2 00:15:34 Oh yeah. Especially with that pain, I've had a little spine stuff myself and it, it does hurt. It hurts. I can't imagine what it's like to be four years old and they have to be going through that.
Speaker 3 00:15:46 Right. And repeatedly that's the hard part. It is over and over and over. And that at first he didn't know. And then afterward he, you know, as soon as my husband picked him up to take him down the elevator he'd kick and scream and fight us, you know, he knew exactly what he was, what was gonna happen. And that's what was hard for him.
Speaker 2 00:16:05 And it must have been hard for you too. I mean, I know you fell into your nurse nest, uh, to cope with some of it, but it also must, must have been hard to see your son in so much pain and dealing with so many issues around this cancer.
Speaker 3 00:16:23 It was. And I, you know, that's when I kind of would revert to my nurse have and say, this has to be done. This is, you know, you just kind of justify, we just have to get through this. And, and that whole first part of the book is about getting through and living in the dark. And you just have to find a way both emotionally and physically to get through it because he won't survive. If you don't, you know, it's a hundred percent fatally. If you don't go through some form of an aggressive chemotherapy treatment. So, you know, you do that to save yourself, that's a trade off and you just kind of kept, I kept that in my mind, you know, and then you try to, you know, be a supportive and understanding and you try to take, reduce all those symptoms and side effects as much as you can and be there for 'em. But it, and I would think having a teenager would be hard because they would also be in their rebellious stage mm-hmm <affirmative>, you know, and talking backstage, you know? So every age has its unique issues.
Speaker 2 00:17:27 When did you feel like you finally came to grips with your own need for care, whether it was, you know, your own emotional care, perhaps your husband caring for you, or, you know, how did you, uh, know finally that you were in a state that you needed to be helped too?
Speaker 3 00:17:50 Well, that's a really good question. I think it's a, you know, it's a continuum. It's not, that's what was surprising about the dream at 10 years off treatment is, oh my gosh. You know, when I, I actually dreamt he died. Mm. It wasn't. It was that sudden realiz that I guess I didn't process this, I guess I'm not okay with all of this. Well, all along my head overload my mind, my heart, you know, my mind overload my heart and said, you got this, we can move on. I, you know, coming off treatment was a huge event as this huge transition. You're so relieved, but it's also taking away our, what we call a chemo, blankie mm-hmm, <affirmative>, it's our security against relapse. So I think really it was five years off treatment when I could breathe a sigh of relief and relax a little bit.
Speaker 3 00:18:46 And that's also when Tyler passed a four year mark and I could say, okay, he, you know, some siblings, I, I know some families who both of their kids get cancer. Mm. Both of them get leukemia. So it, that was a huge, uh, release for me. I think both when Brennan was five years off treatment and when Tyler turned five years old and then just kind of, you know, we went back to our life as much as we could and tried to focus on the joy and living every moment. And so it was a surprise when the dream woke me up. And that's when I realized I, I hadn't processed these feelings very thoroughly in a way that I could let him go. And then I, what I learned is you have to feel those feelings before you can let, 'em go. Yeah. You can't just process them from a cognitive level. You have to feel them.
Speaker 2 00:19:39 I say the only way out is through
Speaker 3 00:19:42 Exactly,
Speaker 2 00:19:43 Exactly. Talk about Brandon's, uh, drawings. He, he really seemed to get a lot of, uh, uh, help from his drawings.
Speaker 3 00:19:51 He did. And, uh, he, okay. So I talked, talked to you about the house
Speaker 2 00:19:56 And the bird, and
Speaker 3 00:19:57 Then he, he actually, um, colored a picture of his bones and he told me he put a heart in with his bones. He told me there's a heart and a brain because you need both mom. And then later he told me that he gave the bones, the right cells, because that's where leukemia starts. Leukemia starts in the bone marrow. And you need to have the, you know, the cells and what he had is, you know, 98% immature white blood cells, which is not the balance you want. So he built it in with more platelets than red blood cells. And, um, that told me that he kind of grasped the whole idea of it. Uh, but then the other one I like to talk about is, uh, he loved the story of the headless horseman, uh, getting lost in the dark. And I just like, I couldn't figure out why he liked that dark story so much, but we read it many night after night.
Speaker 3 00:20:53 And one day he brings me a picture and he says, here's a picture from your mom. And I asked him what it was. And he said, I drew him a candle. I gave the headless horseman a candle to help him find his way. And later on, he drew sailboats and I had no idea he had any connection to sailboats. Dwayne and I had taken sailing lessons before the kids were born in the Boston Harbor, um, on the east coast. And he drew several sailboats and often he was either sailing alone, or he had a lighthouse, the boat was sailing, and one of them, he had a sailboat and there was, there was a sun, but it was behind the clouds and the lightning and the rain and the hail. And, um, and then another picture that he drew was reflected that same chaos in his life was a flower.
Speaker 3 00:21:42 The, in between and the summer, about six months after diagnosis, we had a little break called year old maintenance and things were a little bit lighter for two months. And he, one day he came up to me in the morning and gave me a folded up, maybe some paper, like a paper, folded like a fan. And I unfolded it. And it was a picture of a flower tall to be tall and straight. And it was wounded in the ground, even though there was rain and thunder and lightning and everything around it. And I saw that as representing him going tall and flourishing, despite all the chaos mm-hmm, <affirmative>, he centered, he was there. So he took pictures that whole first year. And then after that, he transitioned out. He didn't drew us much after that first year. And then later on, he started writing and he started writing for school, little essays and POG little things about what cancer meant to him. And so eventually he transitioned towards from the pictures, but the pictures told a lot about where he was emotionally. Mm-hmm <affirmative>,
Speaker 2 00:22:49 <affirmative> talk a little bit more about Tyler. I'm. I'm curious for our listeners, how to assist a younger, uh, sibling who's whose older sibling, who he probably looks up to a great deal, has cancer. And, uh, the young one has to deal with this in some emotion has to take care of himself and you have to take care of him as well.
Speaker 3 00:23:15 That's a really good question. And you know, there's so little literature, um, siblings, I had a pediatric oncology nurse, student graduate student who wanted to study siblings. And I remember telling her one day, I said, you know, I need to learn more about pediatric oncology. I was predominantly an adult oncology nurse. And that, that year Blinn was diagnosed. Well, that isn't the way I wanted to learn about pediatric oncology. I'll tell you. But, so I learned a lot from her about siblings, but he just got, he lived through it at every sibling is different. And Tyler was only 21 months old. I mean, I had no frame of reference. I didn't even tell him what was going on. Mm-hmm <affirmative> until my nanny said, one day, what did you told Tyler Brennan been in the hospital for two or three days? And I go, oh my gosh. I'm and he is pre-verbal. He didn't ask questions. He was quiet, but he was an observant and he was withdrawn. And so I sat at him down on the couch and he said, you know, very simply Brennan's in the hospital. He has leukemia, he's sick, but they're taking really good care of him. And we hope he'll come home soon. And then he just melted into my arm.
Speaker 2 00:24:26 Aw.
Speaker 3 00:24:26 He needed to be told. And then I was like, oh my gosh, um, I should have seen this earlier. And so many days in a row, I ended up holding him and he wouldn't, he just clung to me. I mean, that's his way of expressing himself. He clung to me, I took a shower with him one day because he wouldn't let go of me and I had to get to the hospital. So the rain was coming down on all us, you know, and over time he adapted and kind of gotten the flow of things. But years later, we're looking two pictures of, uh, when Brennan was on treatment and he points to one of him and Brennan and go the one of them of the back and goes, who's that mom <laugh>, he didn't recognize Brennan. And he didn't remember anything of course, of that whole experience. And then when he was in college, he did a paper on siblings of cancer survivors, and he could hardly find any research at all. And so I don't think he was very satisfied. I was, he talked a little bit about his experience, but he didn't share a whole lot because he didn't remember a whole lot. Mm-hmm
Speaker 2 00:25:32 <affirmative> well,
Speaker 3 00:25:34 But it does affect them.
Speaker 2 00:25:36 Yeah. Yes, it does. Um, I'm sure. Um, talk about Brandon. He, after he, uh, became, well, again, he did some speaking at some, uh, speeches that you gave, and it sounds like you were very proud of him and as well, you should be and talk about those speeches.
Speaker 3 00:25:59 Well, uh, I'm trying to remember which came first, but he did, he, we talked several times and we gave a keynote and a pediatric conference in Phoenix and he loved being up on stage. Actually, the first time he came up on stage, he didn't talk, but I gave a keynote in San Francisco. Um, and that's when I did a talk for oncology nurses, uh, wind behind the sales and the power that they had to help families get through cancer. And I couldn't get the kid out of bed when he got off the plane and he wanted to just crawl into the bed. And I, you know, I just outta the spur of the moment, I said, Hey, you wanna come up on stage? He leaked out bed and ran to the convention center. That was his thing. So then I thought, well, you know, he did like to talk and he did prepare, we talked, uh, in Washington DC because it was his birthday.
Speaker 3 00:26:54 And I, they asked, they invited me to come and do a talk integrative medicine conference. And I said, I can't it's Brendan's birthday, I home. And then they, a friend of mine, um, said, well, told the conference committee, well, Bri talks too. So they invited him, but he stole the whole show and they got up, you know, there was 1200 people in the audience and they all got up and saying, he says, Jordan, I saying, you know, I'm eight years old, today's my birthday. And I just finished treatment for leukemia. And they all got up and saying, happy birthday too, him. And he just stood up on stage UNS seated, you know, he stood up on stage and took it out later and then went on with his little talk. So he loves the limelight <laugh> and he's a good speaker. And he is got a very strong voice. He always have,
Speaker 2 00:27:37 You must be very proud of him, uh, having done that
Speaker 3 00:27:41 Well, just to be able to even want to do.
Speaker 2 00:27:44 Yeah, really. <laugh> um, we are running outta time here, so very quickly. What's next?
Speaker 3 00:27:53 Uh, what's next in terms of what
Speaker 2 00:27:55 Writing
Speaker 3 00:27:56 Writing? Oh, well, this is all about, I it's about my journey, my emotional journey, but it's about when it's physical journey. My next right is about living with chronic illness and acute life, acute life threatening illness. And it's some of those similar themes, but it's from more of an adult perspective and managing, um, how to get through and how to make sense of, and by meaning and purpose in however illness, reshapes our lives.
Speaker 2 00:28:31 Well, thank you very much. Janice post white author of standing at water's edge, a cancer nurse, her four year old son and the sifting types of leukemia. We've really enjoyed having you with us tonight. Thank you very much and take care.
Speaker 3 00:28:49 Thank you very much, Liz and care.
Speaker 2 00:28:52 <laugh>. Bye bye. Thank
Speaker 3 00:28:54 You. Bye.
Speaker 6 00:29:14 He was one of the chatty passengers, the type who wanted to be my pal, my best pal ever. Just my luck. I usually work security at club on Saturday nights, but with Fredo at his sister's wedding and our substitute driver out sick, I had to drive for my first year on the job as the night shift courtesy van driver for the Paragon hotel. I hated guys like this, the compulsive talkers who dealt with their anxieties about flying or being near New York city or being away from the wife and kids by making nice to the P schmuck who drove the three stop route between long island MacArthur airport, the hotel, and the long island railroad station at Ron con comma. And this guy had it bad. He was a determined sort. So, Hey, what's your name anyway, Gus. So Gus Gus, huh? What's that short for August Gustav unusual names, either one, I noded not bothering to tell him that Gus was an abbreviated version of my middle name, Augustus. What, for this wasn't a actual conversation. It was verbal smoke that would wa away and disperse into nothingness. The moment I unloaded his bags and turned him over to the new night clerk for registry.
Speaker 7 00:30:43 Very good. That is Reed Ferrell, Coleman reading from his new novel, what you break the second in his GU Murphy series. And, uh, that the first one was where it hurts. He is the author of 25 novels, including the critically acclaimed Mo Preger series and has won the Shamus Barry and Anthony awards. He also writes the Jesse Stone series for the late Robert B. Parker. And he's been on the show before re Farrell Coleman. Welcome back to write on radio.
Speaker 6 00:31:16 Thanks for having me back.
Speaker 7 00:31:19 Uh, I really like GU Murphy. I think he's my favorite character of the, of the people that you write. Um, not really sure why I like him more than say Mo bragger or, or your other, your other, uh, protagonists, but, um, I assume you really like him as well and, and talk a little bit about him and, and why you wanted to write him.
Speaker 6 00:31:45 I, I actually do like Gus a lot because one of the reasons I like Gus a lot is because he isn't like me, a Mo Mo pre for all of my protestations to the contrary was me. Um, you know, a sort of idealized version of me. Mm-hmm <affirmative> GU Gus is not me. Um, Gus is an interesting character in that he was once somebody else and now he's becoming someone new. And the thing that changed his life was, um, his 20 year old son died playing a pickup basketball game game. And Gus went from being someone who knew who he was, who was sure he understood how the universe worked to a man who thought he understood nothing about anything. And so we pick up his story and where it hurts two years after his son's death. And now we've moved on a few months past that and where, and what you break mm-hmm
Speaker 7 00:32:47 <affirmative>. And it was that the reason why you wanted to, to write Gus, I mean, you, you had Mo Frager, a retired New York cop, and now you've got Gus Murphy as a retire, your New York cop, and you had this successful series going. And yet you decided to, even though you were gonna kind of keep a, a somewhat similar, uh, sort of mystery structure, um, to, to go off in a different direction with Gus. Was that just, just because you were sort of tired of writing about yourself maybe and wanted to write something else, or was there some other reason behind it?
Speaker 6 00:33:23 Well, I don't think writers ever get tired of writing about this.
Speaker 7 00:33:26 So <laugh>, uh,
Speaker 6 00:33:29 No, I, I had said everything I had to say through Mo. Um, and the fact is that Mo in the series, there's nine books and, and the series, the Mo Prager books start with walking. The perfect square Mo was in his early thirties. By the time the ninth book, the hollow girl came around Mo was in his sixties, in his mid sixties. And as I say, in the books, the only thing Mo could flash with any credibility at that age was, is his a card <laugh>. Um, you know, so it was tough for me to write a hard boiled detective novel with a guy who was 65 years old. I mean, I'm in my sixties. Yeah. So it's, it's not like it's ageism. I just, wasn't willing to send them down to Boca Raton. Yeah. And have him become like the old age detective. I had said everything I had to say through Mo
Speaker 7 00:34:23 Yeah. Well, let's talk a little bit about the story before we go too much further, give us a sense of, of the plot without giving too much away. Of course.
Speaker 6 00:34:32 Well, okay. Uh, so, so Gus is, uh, coming out of the, the a grief period. I mean, it's been a very long grief period, and he's starting to live again a little bit. He's got a, a girlfriend, uh, he's got a close friend who he works with. And, um, he has an old friend named Dr. Uh, father, bill, who is a, a priest who's left the priesthood and, and Gus and father bill asked Gus to help out a mutual acquaintance, uh, whose granddaughter has been brutally murdered. And the twist is the gentleman who hires Gus. He's not really interested in, um, who did it because the police actually have, who did it, he's interested in why and the, the, the person who's under arrest absolutely refuses to talk about why he murdered this girl. Well, that's the one of the main plots and mm-hmm <affirmative>, and I don't want to go on too much about that. Sure, sure. And his friend, his one really close friend in the world, Slava with whom he works is now in a, his past is caught up with him. And Gus is trying to tread water while he tracks down the information, the person who hired him about the granddaughter's murder and tries to save Slava from his past. Yeah. But I can't say too much more.
Speaker 7 00:36:09 Yeah, no, that's, that's fine. And you sort of hint at Slava's past, in, in the prior book and where it hurts, where he, he knows something that a a night Beman should not know, and he he's very handy with a, a CA uh, and a gun. And, and so one of the things that GU talks about in the story is that basically nobody who works at the, uh, Paragon, is it, I can't, is it that the name of the, the hotel?
Speaker 6 00:36:35 Yes. The Paragon hotel.
Speaker 7 00:36:37 Yeah. Almost none of these people are who they seem to be. They all have pasts.
Speaker 6 00:36:43 Right. In fact, I think I wrote that they work at night to hide, to hide their past. They hide their path.
Speaker 7 00:36:51 Yeah. Right. You also have this father bill character, and he's a big part. And then Dr. Rosen, who, who you say, uh, has sort of helped save Gus's life along with father, bill, we don't get much of, of Dr. Rosen, but we, we get an awful lot of father bill, talk a little about bit about him, because he's interesting. He, he was a priest and then he has left the priesthood and he, he was a priest while he didn't have faith. And now he does have faith <affirmative>
Speaker 6 00:37:19 Yes. It, I, I, you know, it's amazing how you come up with characters who won't go away. Mm. I, I don't, I know you've interviewed lots of writers and I'm sure I'm not the first writer to tell you that I wrote a character who said, you're not getting rid of me so fast
Speaker 7 00:37:37 <laugh>. Um,
Speaker 6 00:37:39 And father bill was, was that character in the original draft of the first novel of, in where it hurts. Father bill appeared on like page 200. And I thought, oh, this is an interesting character, a guy who used to be a priest who was still a priest when GU son died, but who has an interesting backstory and, you know what? I rewrote the whole novel mm-hmm <affirmative> because, uh, I thought this, this character is way too interesting. A character to, to introduce on page 200. Mm mm-hmm <affirmative> um, and so bill is an interesting guy because he served a Padre or chaplain in Vietnam where he lost his faith. And many, many, many years later he finds his faith. And when he finds his faith again, he realizes he doesn't need the trapping of, of the church to reinforce, uh, his faith. Yeah. And I, I, I think that that makes for an interesting character.
Speaker 7 00:38:45 Yeah. It really is. I mean, I think of, for example, mother Teresa, who, who struggled with doubt her li whole life, basically, it's certainly, you know, near the end of her life and put that into her journals and yet remained a none all the way through and, and intended for her journals to be burned. And then of course, people didn't respect her wishes. Um, but that's, that's something that GU struggles with throughout the course of the story as well. He, he doesn't believe, but you get to sense that he, he kind of wants to believe.
Speaker 6 00:39:18 Yeah. I, I think a lot of people have that struggle though. I'm not sure how many admit to it that, um, they don't believe, but man, I mean, I don't believe, but I would love to believe would you? Yeah. Yeah. Uh, it, it, I mean, you'd be crazy not to want to believe mm-hmm <affirmative> I don't and GU struggles with it and don't forget cops have a different struggle. They see people at their worst. Uh, and, and if they stay on the job a long time, they see their people at their worst for a very long time. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, and so it, it's hard for them to believe like mother therea, who, who was dealt with the, the poorest and the lowest of the low and their horrible situations, you want to believe, but the very Mayur you work and makes it hard to believe mm-hmm
Speaker 7 00:40:11 <affirmative>. Yeah. Right. You also set this on long island as you did the pre novel. And one of the things that you, you do that strikes me because you come back to it over and over again, is the inequality, uh, of the income divide on long island. Talk a little bit about that because you Gus remarks on it, but he, he doesn't seem to be particularly judgemental about it. It's more just observation of, of the way the world is.
Speaker 6 00:40:41 Well as an author. Uh, and as a reader and a movie goer and a TV viewer, I despise preaching. I don't like when a show or a book preaches to me, but I do like people pointing things out to me. So I guess I carry that prejudice into my writing. Mm. Gus is a guy who drove a pro car for 20 years. He's seen a lot of things. He's lived on long island, his whole life. He sees things, but it's not for him to judge. Um, and I drove a home heating oil delivery truck for seven years on and off. And, and, you know, people, when they think of long island, what do they think of? They think of the Hamptons. They think of the gold coast. They think of the wineries. They think of yachts and, and golf courses and country clubs and long island sound. But, uh, that's not the long island I live on. When I delivered home heating oil. There were people who had to choose week to week, whether to have heat or food. So I think I wanted to introduce that long island where people actually live. Hmm. Yeah. You know, few miles this side, or that side of the long island expressway, not the Hamptons is not long island anymore than, uh, fifth avenue is really what New York city is about.
Speaker 7 00:42:13 Yeah. Right. You, um, have a character, uh, from the previous book that is now Gus's girlfriend too Maggie, who, uh, who we were introduced to and where it hurts. And, uh, we weren't sure while we were reading that if it was going to be her or it was going to be this other woman that, that Gus had, uh, had dinner with, uh, once or twice and, and hooked up with an, um, and then of course, he's still dealing with his ex-wife in Annie. Um, and they have a decision to make about whether to keep the house that, uh, their son grew up in. And, uh, so talk a little bit about that dynamic of why he has on to, to Maggie and how he is trying to, to move on by, by not, he talks about that at one point in the story about not hooking up with this other woman who was a, a really good cook and stuff, because he wasn't the same person that, that he used to be.
Speaker 6 00:43:10 Yeah. Well, you know, you asked me before about why stop riding Mo why I liked riding Gus. And this is, this is, this relates Mo was always who he was, he was born a kind of cynical New York, Jewish guy. He was always that guy, he was born that guy and that he would die. That guy Gus on the other hand was a guy who wasn't very cynical, even though he worked as a cop for 20 years, he thought he knew how the world operated. He, he understood he had what he always wanted. You know, he had a beautiful wife, a, a house, two kids, he got, he had it all. And then that all went away. So the found, it was as if the foundation of his house got blown up with him and still in the house. Mm. And so he is not that guy anymore.
Speaker 6 00:44:04 And I think as he remarks as the, the woman who he, he met and had dinner with and hooked up with once or twice is the kind of woman he, you would have wants. Mm-hmm, <affirmative> love to be with, but he's not that person anymore. And, and ma Maggie much more suits who he is becoming than who he was. Right. Right. And I think that's, and, and I think if you've been married to somebody for a long time there, and you've connect, you're connected through your children, there's no escaping that ever. Mm. So, you know, he's an interesting character in that he's evolving and even, I don't know who he'll be.
Speaker 7 00:44:48 Yeah. That's another question that I, I was going to ask you. So this is a good time to talk about is, is how much of Gus Murphy did, you know, writing the first novel and how much more did you learn writing the second one? I mean, do you, I, cuz I've written series as well, a series as well. And, and some things you sort of know automatically, this is the, this is who this person is, and this is, this is where he's going. But then as you're writing sometimes in book two or book three or book four, you find out, you know, he's also this, and I hadn't really thought about that before, but, but he's also this does, does that, does that, uh, affect you as well?
Speaker 6 00:45:29 Oh, absolutely. I, I I'd like to think of myself as a very open writer, open to the, what the characters have to tell me about themselves. I mean, I really did rewrite the first book when seeing, so you can imagine I saw father bill at page 200 and rewrote the whole book mm-hmm <affirmative>. So you, you know, with Gus, I'm very open to GU telling me where he's going. Mm. Um, I have a sense of who he's gonna become, uh, and, and how he'll get there, but I don't know for sure. And, and like you say, it's in the writing. Mm. And I'm not an outliner, I don't do story arcs. I don't, you know, I just start with an idea and a sense of where I'm going and, and I let myself go.
Speaker 7 00:46:16 Yeah. That's, that's an interesting way to, to work. And I do that as well. I don't really like to outline, because I don't want to be sort of trapped into a bubble that I decide isn't a, a legitimate or honest bubble, if a character starts to do or something that the character needs to do. And then you're, you're either stuck changing your outline or, or working outside of what you feel is honest communication. Um,
Speaker 6 00:46:41 Yeah. Outlines have never worked for me, uh, because for two reasons, one is I feel once I've written it down, I feel committed to it. And secondly, if I've it down, why would I wanna write it again? Yeah.
Speaker 7 00:46:56 <laugh> yeah. Right. And, and I assume then that, you're also one of these writers who sort of feels like character is more important than story.
Speaker 6 00:47:08 I used to think it was character alone, but you know, you can have them a most interesting character in the world, but if your plot is weak, it shows yeah. You have to have, you know, you can be the best looking fittest person in the world, but if I take your skeleton away from you, you're gonna collapse through a puddle <laugh> so plot is important. Yeah. To me, it's, it's become increasingly important to me over the course of, of my career, but, um, a good plot enhances your character. Hmm. So I think they go hand in hand. I used to be character CA character character. Now I, I see the value of a good plot. Yeah.
Speaker 7 00:47:53 Yeah. And you've done poetry too. Um, so you like to play with language and you've talked about that before on the show, I assume that a book like this, as opposed to say, when you're writing the Jesse Stone series gives you a bit more or freedom to play with language and, um, and really use it to drive a point home. Whereas in a, in a, you know, one of the Robert B. Parker books, you're much more having to sort of stay within to a degree, the, the confines that have been set up by, by Bob and not, uh, do too much in the way of, uh, improvisational, jazz. So to speak on the page.
Speaker 6 00:48:45 Yeah. That don't look for lyricism from me in a Jesse Stone, but look, uh, and it's not because I wouldn't wanna do it. It's not my series. Really. I I'm, I'm honoring Bob by doing it now. I don't write like Bob and I don't try to write like Bob, but Jesse acts like Jesse suit acts like suit Molly acts like Molly. Uh, it is third person which makes for me lyricism a little more difficult. Um, and it's just not, I don't think that's what the readers want in those books. And unlike in my books, which I write for me and hope other people like them, mm-hmm <affirmative> and Jesse Stone books. I do keep the audience in mind. Yeah. When I write those books, I have to, they're not mine, I'm doing a job for somebody. And, and that makes a difference. And I'd be irresponsible not to do that. Yeah.
Speaker 7 00:49:43 Another thing that you write, and this is very late in the book, but I don't think it's really giving anything away. A GU makes a point and says that he talks about his morality. He has a set of rationalizations that let him sleep at night. And, and partly that's because he makes certain choices that he's not sure are the right choices. Um, but he, he makes them because he has faith in believes in certain people and therefore, you know, commits to doing things in the few. Sure. That might not be for the best. Um, th that's interesting to me that, that here's a character who's flawed enough to, to sort of realize, I, I may not always be able to do the right thing because I have committed to these people in my life.
Speaker 6 00:50:30 It's, it's interesting. You bring that up because really that is at the center of this book. And I, I can tell you briefly where that comes from if you're interested.
Speaker 7 00:50:39 Sure, sure.
Speaker 6 00:50:41 Um, early in my career, I mean, at the very first begin in 1991, when my first two books were published, I did some, uh, book signings with a, a retired New York city detective named Lou Polito who had written a book called mafia cop. And Lou was very nice to me. He was very gracious. He was very welcoming <affirmative> and, you know, we weren't friends, but he was nice to me as it turned out Lou and his partner have since been convicted of murdering seven people. Mm. And, um, one the wrong person on behalf of the New York mob. And they're both serving life sentences in a federal penitentiary. So it struck me that here isn't somebody who is nice to me, who is a friendly guy who is also a murderer. Yeah. And how do you deal with that? How do you, how am I supposed to feel about that? Um, and asking myself that question is how was the seed of this book actually? Mm, Yeah. And what leads GU to say that at the end of the book.
Speaker 7 00:51:59 Yeah. Well, it's, it's really good. I really enjoy your writing, but I think, uh, you've really sort of hit your stride in a way with this GU Murphy stuff, because, uh, I just really enjoy him. I assume you've got more books coming in the series.
Speaker 6 00:52:12 Well, let's just say we're negotiating.
Speaker 7 00:52:14 Oh, you're negotiating. Okay. <laugh> so possibly more books in the series. That would be great. So we're out of time. We're gonna have to leave it at that. This is Steve rim speaking with Reed Ferrell Coleman about his new GU Murphy novel, what you break far Coleman. Thanks for being on right on radio.
Speaker 6 00:52:32 Thanks for having me back.
Speaker 7 00:52:35 And now this,
Speaker 1 00:52:54 You are listening to right on radio on KFA I 90.3 FM and streaming live on the
[email protected]. I'm Josh Weber like to thank our special guest tonight, Janice post white and all of our listeners by your support and donations KFA I would not be possible. You can find more news and info about right on radio k.org/right on radio. Plus listen to recent episodes on our podcast, found on Spotify, iTunes, Google podcast, and anywhere podcast can be found. Now stay tuned to Bon Jo Minnesota.
