Speaker 1 00:04 <inaudible> on radio on cafe,
Speaker 2 00:30 The 0.3 FM and streaming live on the web at <inaudible> dot org. I'm Andy Harvey and I'm Josh Webber tonight on, right on radio. David talks with Brian Cherry, the author of two question of homes, funeral journey, and ruins, ruminations, and rituals, and his work. He attempts to navigate space between a solitary moment and the expansive of eternity born and raised in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. He has been shaped by his experiences in his home city. His work has appeared in returned to the gathering waters, anthology, and permeable to the year.
Speaker 3 01:04 The second part of our show, Annie will be talking with Katherine silver translator and the former director of the band
Speaker 1 01:19 By Maria, Sonya, Krista, Daniel, SIDA, and Caesar RN, all of this and more. So say to me, right.
Speaker 4 01:38 Hey, how's it going?
Speaker 0 01:40 Wonderful. Thanks for being with us tonight. Why don't we kick something off Brian, uh, with a Palmer reading and then, um, about it.
Speaker 4 01:50 Um, so I think we're lucky enough nowadays, to be able to see a lot of poets that we like reading their stuff online or videos that they filmed when they were alive. Um, so this was a poem about doing that. Um, it's called pair reading, having a Coke with you. Cigarettes is held as if transformed into right-hand after thought where's the Ash that, that cigarette created. This was 1966. It is now 52 years after he listed places that I still have no idea about that Ash as to be somewhere, probably not as Ash, but as what in where 52 years ago was one year after Congress, decreed that packs carry a warning. Caution cigarette smoking may be hazardous to your health. This mosaic man whose eyes grazed the camera exactly four times in the one minute and 45 seconds, who mentioned seven severed locales, which rise to a fragmentation, occasionally moves the cigarette to rhythm on the emphasis words.
Speaker 4 02:59 Was he concerned about what this eternal cigarettes and all the other smokey silhouettes inducing cylinders, colloquially squares might do to him. So many cigarette pictures of this man. So much zagging language like Chinese lanterns of flaming the sky filled with numerous luminous cold constellations, the sky, his gentle tongue in a few short number of days from this poem's recitation buyer Island waits to call him. I just hope he was not concerned about the potential for cigarette deaths. It helps me to believe that those ashes endings are now somehow a part of a red wing black bird stumbling about indu dam, Kentucky bluegrass in nascent, Midwest spring. That at least some of his body's molecules have become grime. That is mucking up the painting of a young man on his horse at the Frick collection in New York.
Speaker 0 04:02 Thank you, Brian. Thank you. It often happens when or one of our poets kicks off a show where they're reading that it happens to be one of my favorite poems and I do, I do love this one. So thank you, Corinne it. Um, it touches on some themes that we're going to get to, but before we do that, Brian, let's talk a little bit about you. As we heard from Josh at the top of the show, born and raised in Milwaukee. Are you still in Milwaukee?
Speaker 4 04:26 I am. Yeah.
Speaker 0 04:27 So let's tell us about Milwaukee and, uh, your life there because it shows up in your poems and give us a little bit of a background about you and your life and where this writing comes from.
Speaker 4 04:40 Yeah. So, uh, you know, I grew up on the North side, Milwaukee, um, central city, um, lot of beauty there, um, you know, in some ways it was depressed, a depressed area in a lot of ways, but there was still a lot of beauty that shown through, uh, grew up with my parents. My mom is a writer. Um, my father has worked as a truck driver for, you know, past 35 years, whatever it is, a big family, I'm the oldest of eight children.
Speaker 0 05:15 Oh, wow.
Speaker 4 05:16 Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I'm kind of, you know, had some interesting perspectives just because I went to school like, um, elementary school all the way through high school in like suburban area, a suburb in the city. So like I kind of had that back and forth. Uh who'll push going on between that. And you know, once I got done with college, there was really nowhere else that I wanted to be. You know, it's a, it's a great city, you know, it's yeah. Lot buy things like a lot of places are right now, but it's a great city.
Speaker 0 05:53 Yeah. I agree. It's a fun, fun city. I know it from visiting. Is most of your family still in Milwaukee then?
Speaker 4 06:00 Yeah. Um, I just have one sister who's, uh, she's a pediatrician down in Nashville, so, but other than that, everybody's still in the area.
Speaker 0 06:10 Great. Well, if you have a, we won't read it right now, but later on, if you have a Pullman mind that really says Milwaukee for you, let me know. I have, I have one picked out that might be, um, and that's called and then Perez for one for 16th and Atkinson. I'm assuming that's a corner street corner of Milwaukee, but maybe we can talk about that in a little bit. Um, but uh, to kick things off, let's talk about a couple of poems from funeral journey. One when I, one is called when I was a war zone, which is a very, uh, sort of, uh, grabbing a title and then one, a couple of pages after that, which I really liked too, is pair and a bluish ceramic bowl. Totally different sort of home, but I just love it for a lot of different ways because I think this gets at sort of the breadth of your work.
Speaker 0 07:02 And there's a lot of good stuff here, Brian, I enjoyed reading it, but, but let's talk about when I was a war zone and it's almost impossible not to bring up a poem with that title and not reflect a little bit on what's been going on the last, unfortunately, a couple of weeks and frankly for the last fortunate many, many, many, many years. Uh, so, uh, if you wanna read some of that from us, or you just want to talk about it, maybe set us up, tell us what this is about and where this came from.
Speaker 4 07:28 Yeah. So, um, it's, it's funny. Um, it's one of the poems that came fairly quickly, um, and came with like a flood of passion behind it. I think it touches on a lot of different things that, that are going on, you know, um, the over military militarization of, you know, the police or the, just the military in general, like how much our society builds that up. Um, it also touches upon like the mental health aspect of it, um, what effect this can have on people living in these communities. Um, but that's, you know, it's, it's where it ended up. I'm not sure if that's where I meant to start it at, but it is certainly, um, something that anytime I go back to this, uh, this collection, it's something that kind of pops out for me, this, this poem. So I'll read that if that's all right with you,
Speaker 0 08:37 That would be great. I think that's entirely appropriate. Thank you, Brian.
Speaker 4 08:42 When I was in the war zone, when I was a war zone, picked the bullets out with dainty hands out of gap, filled teeth watched as smoke exhaled. My lungs, as my linguistic struggle to choke out a proper way to crave death, took delicate bones from frenzied birds, as they reacted to me as they would to a weather's wild phrases, lat poison with Crimson tongue wept in a manufactured fashion, allowed my chest cavity to be propaganda. The fighter jets, their wreckage intercourse, dropping sleep seeds to bloom slaughter at ease in my blow legs, kinetically generals, and exhorted this to children. Inner turmoil of flank exposed in my eyes enemy is within, without surrender the Savage mental health feed. We must feed. I must feed contortions upon full-on spirit abortions, razors sticky, abundant losers building up my innards with the spoils are the winners black goldmine veins split my lizard brain.
Speaker 0 10:04 Thank you. It was very powerful. Uh, I recently this week listened to a Gil Scott Heron reading. Uh, the revolution will not be televised. And how do you feel Brian is an African American man and what poetry can do. And you're an artist beyond that. And we can talk about that too. I get the sense from your poetry, that you're a visual artist and a musician too. So, uh, good for you, but, uh, the purpose of power of poetry, uh, in times like this, uh, that doesn't work for you and does it resonate?
Speaker 4 10:44 Well, I think for me, the power in poetry, as it hits me, like, I can only speak for myself, you know, of course, but the way that, um, it breaks you up and takes you out of time and allows you to slow down, you have to slow down to kind of try, try and process what's going on. That, uh, that process of slowing down is something that, that can help through anything that's going on in your life. Um, the current situation like you gotta, you can't just rush into things. You gotta take the time to slow down and see what's really, what's really formulating in your body and then attack that once you, once you know what you want to do attack that. But I think poetry has a potential to outside of just, uh, opening people up to being slower. It also has a potential to give people power because they can, they can navigate and write poetry in whatever style they want to, because nobody can tell you what a poem really means, you know? Um, but it may them up to be in like, you know, Oh, I can do this. And this helps me express what I'm feeling about this current situation right now. And I think that's a, that's a very powerful door. That's open for people when that happens.
Speaker 0 12:06 Great. Thank you. I agree it now yet. I think your poetry does that and poems do that in general to make us stop and check ourselves, uh, and, and, uh, think about our place in whatever situation we're in and our place in the universe. And that's the next subject I want to get to with you, but I want to remind our gentle listeners out there that we are speaking with Brian Cherry from Milwaukee and talking about his two collections of poetry, funeral journey, and ruins, ruminations, and rituals, and why I mentioned the universe and your poetry is it seems to pop up, um, and your relationship, our relationship with, uh, infinity with space with the universe, uh, it pops up a lot in it and sometimes it surprises me. Uh, and it does again, in the second point, I mentioned a pair in a bluish ceramic bowl, which I want to ask you to read. So we have some time to talk some other things too. I want to give you a chance to talk about this, but, um, where does this come from this idea? Uh, and, and you also bring up other elements of science in your poetry also from biology to evolution. Um, why does your brain go there? So it's part of your background or,
Speaker 4 13:20 Well, no, not necessarily, I guess. Uh, you know, I went to, I went to the school for like politics and history. Um, you know, I think in that I kinda saw the repeating themes narratives that happen for different societies, um, humanity as a whole. Um, and, um, I'm intrigued by, by science. I'm intrigued by, um, like the big bang and stuff like that, um, for what it means, whether, whether you want to think of it as a metaphor or not, like if there's, I think there's a lot of beauty in the fact that you can think of everything being in this one, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny dot that just exploded into everything. Because if you, if you can wrap your mind around that thought, then you can wrap your mind around the thought that we're all one thing kind of expressing itself in different, you know, formations or mutation, whatever you want to say.
Speaker 6 14:27 <inaudible>,
Speaker 4 14:28 That's, that's where a lot of that comes from.
Speaker 0 14:31 I see. And, uh, in that poem, you reference a child, perhaps your child, um, but very nicely
Speaker 6 14:39 Mmm.
Speaker 0 14:42 Linking to all those seams you just described and to our relationship with other people and whatnot. Anyway, you do that very, very nicely. Um, is the Gemini in ruins, ruminations and rituals Gemini on page 70, it feels like, uh, like the brief story of grand Cherokee's life. Is it sort of a grand jury? No, not at all. I am a judge,
Speaker 4 15:10 But it's not about me. It's about, uh, one of my best friends in the world actually.
Speaker 0 15:15 Okay. Okay. So
Speaker 4 15:16 Like, uh,
Speaker 0 15:18 It raises a nice story.
Speaker 4 15:20 Yeah, yeah. It was fun to kind of just try and somebody else's experience from what I've leaned from being around him for so long. So, yeah.
Speaker 0 15:30 So in terms of that leads to my follow up question, in terms of where you get your ideas, family shows up in here, a Milwaukee shows up in here, um, science, we talked about that. Um, do you, do you look for inspiration for your poems? Does it, does it find you or,
Speaker 4 15:51 Uh, well, I think that, uh, inspiration is something that can be in any, any thing that's happening to you, you know, like, uh, what's happening right now could be because there's a disparate parts that, you know, I have a painting right here, which is kind of this weird cat thing, you know, uh, uh, my phone, which is a whole nother rabbit hole of things you can write about, about your phone. And it's just so really I try and take inspiration out of everything that happens. I try and write every day, um, but are truly really low, you know, like, um, I'm just trying to, you know, write what's happening in that poem, uh, that we were talking about previously about my son. Yeah, exactly. It's almost exactly as it happened the first half. And then my mind just kinda unschooled into the, you know, the bigger picture of what's going on with them
Speaker 0 16:49 Right now, we talked about and, or sixth, 13th into Atkinson, which again, references a particular corner in Milwaukee. I believe that's the guest. Um, that's on page 43 of ruins. Um, you want to read some of that for us, Brian, and maybe we'll talk about why that particular corner means something to you please.
Speaker 4 17:16 And for 16th and Atkinson, I remember trying to throw gain signs and assorted convoluted, handshakes and fire hydrants being open on the 90 degree days and the corner stores selling penny candy for 5 cents and trash strewn everywhere and spontaneous rat men spontaneously rapping and stealing chromes off people's tires and basketball in the alley on a milk crate and loose pitbulls and running and the drug house across the street and pee in his wheelchair. He got gap by the game and teenage girls working their bodies and Holy gyrations in the streets to the hip hop. And the folks bursting heavens out of the liquor stores with their booty blinded in black bag concealment. And the grandmothers hovering over youth with lips purse with variations on the theme of slow down an entrepreneur middle-schoolers depending on the season, cutting grass or shoveling snow for five bucks. And the man on the corner hearing on six conversations with himself and the gunshots, having young parents screaming for their progeny to get down on the damn floor and the beautify strangulation of being poor when everyone, you know, is poor to and men and women who went off to college, coming home to inspire, and the glorious scrum of music, always the music blasting from there to here.
Speaker 4 18:46 And the trauma passed down through generations and the strength passed down through generations and the smiles and the mean mugs and the cannabis wafting out of losery angles and the prisons of light and the moon would sometimes make passing cars appear to be UFO folds glinting and windows and love cascading through families and men and women working their asses off at menial blue collar or white collar jobs and food mills for everyone to cast and crate and break down walls and stereotypes applied by the media. And
Speaker 0 19:23 That is so good. I hate to even talk right away after it beautifully read Brian, uh, for listeners, this is a block of type on a page, a few commas here, and there will be places in one long sentence that ends with, and, uh, very powerful. So tell us about 16th and Atkinson and where this poem came from.
Speaker 4 19:45 Uh, that's where I grew up in Milwaukee food. The majority of, um, it's, uh, right off of a main, main three thoroughfare feel that goes through Milwaukee Capitol drive. Um, but this black was important to me because I learned so much from, from watching people, things I wanted to do things I didn't want to do just like anywhere else, but you know, this is where I happen to come from. And these are things that actually happened, you know, like, um, containing his rent man was my brothers and sisters. And I, we used to call this guy spontaneous rat man, because he just spontaneously start rapping down the street stuff is like, it's, it's fun to let that bubble up into another reality of a poem, you know?
Speaker 0 20:38 Yeah. It's such a beautiful description of place. It just really comes alive and, and, uh, even more so when you read it, um, I think you saw the amazing Josh Weber hold up the two minute warning, which is amazing to me that we're there already, because this has gone too fast. This is so before we lose you, let us know how we can keep up with you. Keep in touch with you. Are you have a website and what,
Speaker 4 21:04 Um, sure. So, um, my, I have a personal website, which is Brian cherry.com, but with the website it's B R Y a N charities T R y.com. And you can go to, if you do backslash poetry, that'll come up. If you just go to the regular, Bryk a N cherry.com. It'll be my music page, but backside is poetry bringing to my poetry sites. Awesome. So I have a nother chat book that I'm currently shopping around now at this point. And it's funny because it's called making love and in times, and it was done at summer now, it's kind of seems like it's on the nose. So who knows? Um,
Speaker 0 21:53 Yeah. Well, if you can send, send me a copy, send us a copy, electronically, whatever you can or would like to keep up with you and then maybe have you back on the show. Oh, that'd be great. Yeah, this has been fantastic. So that's, what's up next? Are you, uh, do you do readings in Milwaukee for anyone who's listening there?
Speaker 4 22:10 I do a lot of readings in Milwaukee. Oh. One of the big places is Woodland pattern, which is kind of the conduit for Milwaukee poets. Um, I've done readings, tons of places. I'm hoping once things are a little bit more normal to start branching out and hidden like Madison lacrosse and up to many,
Speaker 0 22:34 If you come here, let us know. We'll have you say, that'd be a gap before I let you go over and remind everyone that reads in speaking with Brian, Sherry B R Y O N, except on his website. And remember Brian church.com the author of two chapbooks of poetry, funeral journey, and ruins ruminations at rituals and a forthcoming shop book also coming out. That's fantastic. Brian's
Speaker 1 23:00 Have you on our show. It's been great. Thank you so much. <inaudible>
Speaker 3 23:33 You are listening to KFAN 90.3 FM in Minneapolis and streaming on the web at <inaudible> dot org. I'm Liz Oles. And this is what's happening in the calendar of literary events, brought you by the rain taxi review of books on Wednesday, June 10th, from six to 7:00 PM. Author Henry Bookworld will discuss his new book surgical Renaissance in the Heartland, a memoir, a memoir of the wagon scene era presented by the university of Minnesota press and the wagons in historical library. I assume that's virtual, but there's no, uh, address. So I would just look up the wagons and historical library online. And you'll probably find that information. Wednesday, June 10th, from 7:00 PM to 8:00 PM. Books and bars presents a digital discussion of Stewart. Churchins the seven and a half deaths of Evelyn Hardcastle. Again, there's no address listed on the rain taxi, uh, calendar site, but if you look up books and bars, you probably find it Thursday you'd 11th, 7:00 PM to 7:30 PM.
Speaker 3 24:38 Author Joe Mino will discuss his new book between everything and nothing with two of the books subjects say, do Muhammad and Razek. I yell on majorly Quinn's Facebook page and on Saturday, June 30th, from 5:00 PM to 6:00 PM, Minnesota novelists, William Kent, Krueger, and leaf anger. We'll have a live conversation again on Meijer's and Quinn's Facebook page. And on Monday, June 15th, from 6:00 PM to 8:00 PM to amplify the voices of our black community members. Next chapter book sellers will host a virtual open mic. Any black writers interested in sharing a story poem song or another form of literature, please email events to coordinator Kylie Davis at that's Riley Davis said Riley. At next chapter book, sellers.com. That's Riley spelled R I L E Y.
[email protected]. This is the year what's happening. Literate calendar of literary events brought to you by the rain tax. He review of books. There are many other events you can check
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Speaker 1 26:02 <inaudible>
Speaker 7 26:14 Well, hello everyone. Um, you're still on KFH 90.3 FM and streaming live on the web at <inaudible> dot org. I'm Annie Harvey, and I am super excited to be having on the show tonight. Um, one of my favorite translators, uh, Catherine's silver. Um, she, uh, most recently translated include me out originally by Maria Sonia Krzysztof, um, which I, a book that I loved and tore through. Um, but she's translated, I believe over 30 books. Um, and as the former director of the BAMF international literary translation center. Um, so anyway, it's super exciting to have her on the show tonight. Uh, Catherine, can you hear me?
Speaker 8 26:57 Yes, I can.
Speaker 7 26:58 All right. Welcome to the show, Katherine. It's great to have you here.
Speaker 8 27:02 Thank you, Andy. Thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 7 27:04 Um, so I believe you have, uh, a little sample of include me out that you can share with our friends who are listening tonight.
Speaker 8 27:14 Yes. I thought I just read the first page. It gives a good intro to the book and then we can talk and maybe I'll read some more. Sounds good. Um, okay. This is include me out by Medea on your Krzysztof translated by Catherine silver. On some days she is able to follow the trajectory of a fly without anything or anybody getting in the way it's circular flight, the color on its abdomen, the blur of its wing beat it's buzzing, the precise instant Atlanta on a particular surface, its front legs engaged in a kind of frenetic prayer. It's huge eyes, a moment of hesitation it's resolute. Then I linked step its back legs poised to stalk, to flee it's desperate search for a way out there and ensure way a search Mara would assist or her circumstances different. On some days she manages to convince herself that she has learned to observe as if it were an act of simple confirmation.
Speaker 8 28:16 She fits in her museum guard, chair and watches, violent ecstatic with no interruptions of any kind for moments. She believes that her experiment is working. Not always, but on some days she believes she's enjoying success. And if at one of those moments of visitor approaches to ask her a question about the museum or where the bathroom is or about the best local restaurant, she emulates the pieces in the exhibit dares straight ahead at a tiny detail, turns a special quality of attention to how she is sitting. The tensing of her muscles. The expression on her face to remain silent is also a discipline of the body. According to her manual of rhetoric.
Speaker 7 29:04 I love that piece as an intro to the book and it right away got me wrapped up in what this book is all about, which is the, uh, intriguing and often strange minutia based worldview of the protagonist Mara. Um, I love the way we just start on the micro detail of a fly, uh, that most people would, uh, SWAT away and ignore. And I also love the way it drops some references to, uh, what will happen later in the book. Uh, thank you for that choice, Catherine.
Speaker 8 29:36 Thank you for letting me read it.
Speaker 7 29:40 So you, uh, clearly, as I said, at the beginning of the, um, passage, you're a translator and Mara, the book's protagonist, um, is an interpreter in that passage. Uh, we saw her, uh, sitting at the museum, um, in a small town in Argentina where she's working as a translator, um, and the book, uh, include me out really hinges on the ways that both silence and spoken and written rhetoric are tools of manipulation and get used as tools of manipulation. Um, Mara herself is very keen to the language that other people use and is very, for the most part, very deliberate about when she speaks and when she doesn't, um, in addition to how she catalogs and identify as different types of rhetoric and how they get used to steer and manipulate people. Um, in addition to using quiet sometimes as a way to get her own way, um, as someone who works with language yourself, um, and quite prolifically, how did you feel about Mara's observations about, um, language rhetoric and silence?
Speaker 8 30:47 Well, one of the things that really drew me to this book, when I first read it and made me want to translate it was that I, I did identify with the protagonist,
Speaker 7 30:56 Not
Speaker 8 30:57 Usually the case in the books I translate, but it was something about her and the way Medea, Sonia portrays her and her struggle that I, and the particular period of my own life that I, I identified with a lot, I, as a translator, it translation and interpretation. I do a lot of interpreting now as well. If it's an act of empathy, you have to really connect with the other person, which makes you extremely conscious of other people in your midst, even when you're not translating and interpreting. So I, I see Mara's retreat as a kind of, um, uh, being flung back into a place where she's not tuned into other people and not, um, yeah, not, not always engaged. Um, there's like kind of engagement, one needs as a translator or, or an interpreter with the other. And then the idea this whole thing about rhetoric is yes, it's brilliant. Um, cause she's also been like writing this manual of rhetoric, um, throughout the, during her last year of working. Um, so just, just one little correction, she goes to this small town in blue. Her site is not to work as a translator, but to work as a museum guard. Um, she, she abandoned her career as a translator or an interpreter. So she goes there trying to find a situation where she does not have to speak where she can just completely indulge in silence.
Speaker 7 32:17 Perfect. Thank you so much for that correction. Um, I, uh, I love knowing, um, the way that you also found that parallelism, uh, woven throughout the book and so strongly, uh, thanks for letting us know about that. Have you ever tried to take, uh, a quiet period or, uh, a break from a language immersed life kind of in the way of Mara or you just been straight up on those words for your whole career?
Speaker 8 32:43 I mean, I actually have been taking a break now from translating and I, and I actually wrote a book before I sort of finished it before I read this book and that was the other coincidence. Um, I wrote a book really all about being alone and being silent. So that was also another kind of interesting coincidence.
Speaker 7 33:02 Yeah. So, um, as, uh, for, in terms of, uh, your work as a translator and, um, as a conduit for the voices of others, um, and a kosher shaper of those words, um, the author of this book is Maria Sonja Krzysztof, um, who you've, I believe you've also translated false, calm by her, also an Argentinian, uh, book. Um, what is your relationship, um, on a communication or personal level, like Krzysztof, uh, with Christoph, like as you've worked through these translations, particularly this one.
Speaker 8 33:42 Yeah. So, um, I didn't know her at all and, um, I, I didn't work with her closely on, on false calm, but, um, a lot of translators do work more closely with their author's eyes. That's just not my style. So I did, we had a few communications, a few queries. I sent her a almost final draft. She came back to me with a few queries, um, back and forth. And then she was invited to San Francisco to present the book. And I invited her sight unseen to stay at my house for a week. And we had a lovely time. I think we, um, we, we really enjoyed each other and I think most of all, we learned to trust each other's sense of humor, which is pretty important between people. So that th that, and then that continued when I did include me out. So that same relationship, um, very collaborative, very easy. Um, yeah,
Speaker 7 34:32 That warms my heart. That's such a wonderful story. I especially feel like connecting, connecting with a fellow word person over humor is such a milestone because humor can be so personal and so rooted in one's ideology and in how one sees the world. Uh, that's awesome. That especially, um, in the context of going on to working on this book with Christophe, that's really wonderful. Um, so yeah,
Speaker 8 35:00 It's also very funny. It is funny.
Speaker 7 35:02 Yes. Most of my highlights in this book are just like kind of sly burns that Mara makes, like at one point she's walking around and she passes a park and she in her mind refers to it as a what passes here as a park. Yeah. It's like, Ooh, sick burn on Lou Hahn here. Um, speaking of Mara, Mara, as we've hinted at the protagonist, uh, lives with a lot of Essentra cities, uh, some of which, um, I feel like my almost Virgin to being neurosis and she curates a very solitary life. Um, during this era when she is doing her experiment as a museum guard. Um, and I laughed out loud again on the humor. Um, when she described, uh, Ringo, the CSA delivery person coming into her kitchen for a glass of water, she describes it as a startling intimacy, um, which I found funny, um, she fixates on and names, tiny details of the world. Like when you settle down into a chair and your spine touches like the physicality of the chairs, she calls that the lumbar moment. Um, so what was it like for you as a translator to first of all, like even just inhabit this odd character and right. While incorporating her voice and also to just bring her particular lexicon, just bring it over into the diff totally different linguistic system of English.
Speaker 8 36:37 Uh huh. So, so as I said, translating is sort of an act of empathy and the closest thing I can, the analogy I often use is acting you have to sort of inhabit inhabit in this case, the character also the author and the author's voice, the character in the author's voice through it. Um, so, um, and I think, um, in, in the cases you mentioned, um, the trick for a translator there is to trust the author. So when she uses the word intimacy to describe, um, the relationship with Ringo, because he sits down at her table when he delivers the groceries, um, you know, if I didn't trust her, I might think, Oh, that doesn't seem like the right word, but clearly once I translated it, it was perfect and funny, and it totally expressed exactly what Maura's goals were and how she was feeling the world at that moment. Um, and how, how, how alone she wanted, needed to be. Um, so, um, you know, I'm the lumbar moment. It's perfect. That's sort of her attempt to just focus on her lower back.
Speaker 7 37:44 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very funny. Were there any moments in your back and forth of like showing a draft to Maria and which, um, you were very surprised by her commentary on something that you'd translated? Or did she have any, anything that surprised you?
Speaker 8 38:05 Uh, no. I CA I am, I don't remember any,
Speaker 7 38:10 Nothing but net Catherine, silver ladies and gentlemen, Nick, nothing but the hits. That's so cool. Um, well, that's, that's great. I'm sure that after the number of volumes you've translated and the fact that you've translated with Christoph before, um, yeah, I feel like after a while you probably just get a better sense of, uh, how to convey and translate things accurately.
Speaker 8 38:36 I mean, I always make mistakes. Yeah. You know, and she did correct a few things, but I wouldn't say the prize, that's all. Oh yeah. Definitely. There were back and forth and there were things. Yeah. I didn't quite understand there. I think there were a few sort of, um, a more sort of regional uses of certain words. I didn't know exactly what she was referring to, um, or little inconsistencies in attacks, um, that we, you know, and, and often, or often it just, um, I mean, I don't want to give away too much, but there is, there is there's, there ha there is something that's related to explosions later on in the book. Um, that'll be a good tease. There was this whole thing, there was this whole sort of exploration with her and me and the editors of, of should it be blasts or explosions or how should we exactly describe this rather odd occurrence that happens.
Speaker 7 39:29 Yeah. So if anyone has their finger over the order link and I was kind of hovering back and forth, you did hear correctly, there are explosions in this book, there were explosions and you should check it out. Um, cool bursts. Yep. There are bursts, uh, yeah, some trashes tact good times are had. Um, so going diving into that, um, kind of the, um, Marez strong, willingness about language, but also her a vow of silence as she's trying to live this quiet and detached life, um, her internal monologue, um, as we're able to see in this, uh, narrative, um, should we still end up experiencing such an ample amount of her strong opinions, uh, and her scheming, um, because the narrative, even though it's a third person, omniscient voice, it's still, it's very rooted in. Um, Mara has lived experience Mara's observations and daily life. Um, and the, the use of third person was something that really interested me in this book because, uh, if I was, if I was to be writing this, um, uh, I, I would think long and hard about whether to do first person or third person, just because, um, the level of detachment creates kind of this sense of fascination with the character and kind of wondering if you're interpreting things right.
Speaker 7 41:00 But at the same time, the intimacy there is so palpable and real. Um, so just from your lens as the translator, um, why do you think that, uh, Khrushchev opted for kind of a free indirect discourse, third person, instead of writing the story directly in Mara's first person?
Speaker 8 41:22 I mean, I have the same, exactly the same sort of, um, questions when I first read it. I was wondering about that. Um, and I think you've touched on, on two. I mean, there are two sort of parts of that. One is I think it allows Christophe to be as detached from Mara as Mara is trying to be from herself that there's, this there's this double distancing. It also what it allowed Christophe to do, which I think is a, is another really fascinating, um, aspect to this book. And as a whole nother layer is that this narrative, which is, which is quite full of excitement and adventure, despite the fact that nothing she wants nothing to happen in her life a lot does. And interspersed in this narrative are, um, pages from her notebook first from a notebook. And at first we don't know what this notebook is.
Speaker 8 42:16 We don't, we're not sure if it's Maura's notebook, but at a certain point I do. I think it's okay to give this away. Um, at a, at a certain point, uh, the use of the first person is used in one of the notebook, um, excerpts. And these are notebooks are notes on, uh, books that are, that were read, um, or exhibits that were seen or something that was read online. Um, and the, I come in and, and my understanding of that is these are the author's notes. This is what the author was reading. So it's an interesting kind of, it takes away the veil of the authorial, um, distance or absence. And she puts herself into the book in a way. Um, so that also, if Maura was told in the first person, she wouldn't be able to do that.
Speaker 7 43:06 Yeah. It's kind of a meta narrative in a way, in a way that I found fun to be like, um, at first I was like, Oh, does this museum belong to like someone who does curatorial work at the museum? Or, um, something like that. And then kind of the moreness of it all started to seep in. So it was like Mara's silent life becoming her spoken life, but also working on those two levels within her notebook. Um, so I'm really glad you brought that up. I think that was a very fun, um, fun, little overlap, uh, multilayer Reese's cup of a treat. Yeah.
Speaker 7 43:45 Yeah. So, um, speaking of the, uh, the voice and the person, um, and, uh, Mara's voice using it and not using it, um, I'm going to do my best to discuss this without giving away the ending. But I promise everyone that the book is worth reading, even if you know what's happening because the narrative voice is really weird and fascinating. Um, so my favorite moment in the entire book is when Mara is at the bustling museum event with a lot of people, there's some donors, there are some locals there's lot going on. Um, and the narrative says, everybody here seems to surpass her Mara in spades when it comes to the practice of a detached life, which she didn't achieve as it turned out for now, at least. And I just that, because it, it seems like it is, um, Mara experiencing like a personal growth moment or a new level of self awareness, but then it kind of flips back, um, where it's like, is this predicting Mara's future in the third person? Is this, um, Mara having a little something to say about it and the first person, um, how do you feel about that moment or how did you see it as you were translating it and working on it?
Speaker 8 45:03 It's a good question. I mean, I feel it, I think there's, she's doomed to failure her. In other words, her hurt her hurt. They're a bit of a year of silence and a year of detachment and practicing detachment. It's also deliberate and it goes so much against the grain, which is one of the books she reads and that are in the notebook. That's interesting. Um, the Houston book, um, so against her grain in a way as an interpreter, as I was saying, because to be an interpreter or translator is to be deeply engaged and empathetic, meaning be able to enter the minds of other people and Mara can't help herself. It's not just the external circumstances. It's not just because she has something to do with taxidermy. I won't give it away, but it sort of, I think, I think in a way it's, it's her moment of recognizing that she might, she might be able to move to a small town. She might able to give up her international interpreting career. She might be able to take a vow of silence, but she can't really change fundamentally who she is. Um, so there's that too. I think that she can't disengage and that all these people around her could do it so much better than her without any effort.
Speaker 7 46:22 Yeah. I mean, I guess interpreters gotta interpret and for her interpreting in that moment was interpreting the world. Um, so I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna gently tap one more thing without trying to give away anything major. Um, but, uh, again, just to tantalize people to read this book, um, the story ended in a way that I really did not expect. Um, and it ends in two characters feeling genuine satisfaction after a turn events that I really didn't anticipate until towards the end of the book and then how the characters felt about that event. Uh, also really surprised me, um, and it honestly felt kind of cute and heartwarming. So, uh, do you consider this book to have a happy ending?
Speaker 8 47:11 Wow, that's an interesting question. I'm not for a certain people yeah. Or not. Um, but for Barbara, yes. I would say, I mean, I would say there is a kind of upbeat quality, um, not happy ending in the sense of, you know, married and live happily ever after at all. Like, yeah, I think you're right. I think there's a something redeeming. Um, and it's almost as if she will go on to have other adventures her life and not be uninteresting. Yeah. And their lives will be uninteresting
Speaker 7 47:55 For sure. And there's something that's distinctly both like individually empowering, but also interpersonal about the ending. Um, at least I thought, um, yes, yes. Like they, yeah.
Speaker 8 48:11 Yes. The two female characters.
Speaker 7 48:13 Yes. Um, yeah.
Speaker 8 48:15 Yes, absolutely. I agree with you a hundred percent.
Speaker 7 48:18 Yeah. So if you are looking for something to read, listen to our friends that involves, uh, explosions, female plot twist endings, uh, fouls of silence, turning into conspiracies include me out by Maria Sonia Christophe, uh, translated by Catherine silver. Um, Catherine, are you working on any exciting translation projects right now or how's your, how's your silent period going?
Speaker 8 48:49 It's going well, it could have, it could have not coincided with a pandemic and a major upheaval, but, um, it's, it's fine. I hang on some poetry. Um, I just finished a book of translating a book of poetry. I have a Chilean poet and that's going to be published soon. Um, but other than that, I'm working on my own writing. Um, is there a time to read another little piece?
Speaker 7 49:14 There is. I would love to hear that.
Speaker 8 49:17 Um, okay. This is just a little bit further into the book. Um, but I think it doesn't need any introduction. I think it will be understood. Um, and I think this gives a better sense, a good sense of Mara's personality. Yeah. Now she finally understands those women who sweep the sidewalks in front of their houses. Every Sunday, their efforts are no longer unfathomable. There's fury, anger, rage, furiously, angry rage behind it. Mara moves her chair to sweep underneath and over there. Also between all the wheels on almost all the furniture in her museum room, as she sweeps, she touches those pieces with her broom, raising dust disobeying, as she sweeps all the rules, they explained to her the first day, she almost knocked over the bus of cuddle a lot and see me with a movement of her elbow. As if the poor thing hadn't already suffered enough from her fatal fall.
Speaker 8 50:13 She tries to death, the wheels of the snow cloud, the first one that went to the South pole. And when she approaches those wheels wrapped in chains. So they could move through not only the snow, but also the unknown. She feels like climbing a board shifting into first gear and driving out of this room, plowing everything out of her way. Exhibit staff, visitors, stray, dog, other exhibits, then wall cabinets, street vendors, shop windows, street signs, more exhibits hired, help, cultural tourists, security people, suppliers, researchers, more exhibit restorers, taxi German management personnel, whole collections, not on display collections on display presidential carriages assistance possible. Donors junk one of a kind pieces onward and onward flattening all of it and everything else onward to the Soviet steps. That's tractors know so well onward to the Island of <inaudible> and who knows where else someone to her from the door she stops and hears someone asking her what she is doing in a tone of voice marked by that prosody of reprobation, which only guards who belong to the category replacements have the right to use a category that does not underscore in this universe, the implied precariousness of the terms of their employment, but rather other connotative lines that are much more love Hodge, such as no imagism diversity, trans culturalism.
Speaker 8 51:44 Also, as opposed to simple guards who spend hours sitting on their only chair replacements circulate from room to room, as well as alternate between the front door, the boss's office, the garden. If the weather is good, the security posts, even the director study and in, so doing there permanently nomadic state lens than power because of its implicit cosmopolitanism and their resulting privileged access to gossip replacements are the divas of the guards and they know it.
Speaker 2 52:16 And from that position, this particular one asks Mara what she is doing, why she is cleaning the room today when cleaning day was yesterday. I'll stop there. I think we're almost out of time.
Speaker 3 52:30 Yeah. Well thank you so much. That was a, that was a great segment to share with us. And I just want to say that it has been so much fun to have you on the show. I really appreciate the gift of your time. And I really appreciate the opportunity to talk about this book. Thank you so much. Yeah. Well thank you. Um, so, uh, friends and listeners, uh, if you could look for, include me out, it's a wonderful read and thank you, uh, Catherine silver for joining us tonight. Bye bye.
Speaker 2 52:58 Thank you, Eddie for giving you the Mumbai
Speaker 1 53:00 <inaudible> <inaudible> <inaudible> <inaudible>.
