Speaker 0 00:00:03 You are listening to right I'm on radio cafe. I went three FM and streaming live on the
[email protected]. I'm Luiz Oles tonight on right on radio. I'll be talking with Jennifer Dupee to discuss her JBU Dabo. The little French bridal shop a book was from small town secrets and a touch of romance. The little French bridal shop is described by Lewis Miller. As a story about discovering your authentic self, when things get hard and the joys you can find when you live from here
Speaker 1 00:00:39 And I'm Josh Webber it, the last part of the hour, I will be talking with Francis DeVera court. One of the coauthors of the new book, framers human advantage and age of technology and turmoil to frame is to make a mental model that enables us to see patterns predict how things will unfold and make sense of new situations. Framers shows us how framing is not just a way to improve how we make decisions, but why it will be a matter of survival for humanity in a time of societal upheaval, all this some more. So stay tuned to write on radio. Hi Jennifer, are you there?
Speaker 0 00:01:25 Great. Welcome to right on radio. Thanks for joining us tonight.
Speaker 2 00:01:30 Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 0 00:01:31 Uh, why don't we start with a little description of the book and then the reading that you have planned for us?
Speaker 2 00:01:37 That sounds great. So the book is set in motion when my protagonist, Larissa Pearl returns to her small seaside hometown upon the death of her great aunt Ursula. And she's, you know, she's in a bit of a funk. She's just lost her job. She's recently broken up with her boyfriend and she's struggling with her. Mother's failing health on a whim. She wanders into the local bridal shop and buy the dress. Even though she has no groom, soon word spreads all over town that she's getting married. And rather than dispel the rumors, she perpetuates it, small town, chaos ensues. And so I'll start off here. I have a little bit, um, just as she's returned to the house that she's inherited. Um, so I'll start with that.
Speaker 2 00:02:20 She left the photos behind and headed down the stairs to the dining room. She smiled as she always did at the wallpaper, a heavy Navy blue imprinted with a repeating pattern of Cannes and white pheasants glancing over their shoulders. Apprehensive the sentence looks so silly startled out of their forward momentum that she couldn't help but laugh. But her smiles shrunk when she turned the corner and started alarm strip of the paper, appealing with some the ball above the fireplace, dangling with the tongue on a cartoon dog, craps whispered to herself. If her mother had been more with it, it was a sort of project. They might've tackled together. A mother daughter do it yourself, fixing up the house and taking occupancy. But no, it was too big to manage best to just make the repairs and sell the place. So after balancing on a chair and trying to no avail to press the paper back into place, she gathered her things headed outside and tripped back down the hill towards Duffy's hardware, where she hoped to find some wallpaper glue.
Speaker 2 00:03:22 She'd almost made it there when partway through main street, her gaze and lighting. Once again on the mannequin and the window of the bridal shop, she stopped in period. Model's hands. You noticed now had been painted with a pale pink, French manicure, and she had a phone time and adorning her delicate. We raised ring finger, a snickered yet something took hold of her, a mischievous and imposturous side of herself that had recently been served to think to her surprise and delight. Wouldn't it be fun just for a laugh. He thought to take a peek at those dresses to pretend for a moment that she was that mannequin or even her own mother, three illness skipping down the steps of the church. How did we feel? She wondered where it was such a dress. She suspected she'd feel ridiculous, pompous and over bloomed like a peacock, but no one would have to know she wasn't serious.
Speaker 2 00:04:12 Would she dare? She sucked in her breath and smiled to herself. Yes she would. And so this is how Lewis has found herself or their Handleman board off deciding to her own amusement. And perhaps you would go in and try on some dresses just for the heck of it. Why not? What else did she have to do? And so she stepped in a little about tingling as she pushed open the door and before she knew it, she stood directly in front of Mrs. Muldoon, her eighth grade English teacher, who with clipboard and pen in hand seemed to be taking inventory. Clarissa froze, acutely aware that now was the time for escape. But then Mrs. Molden took down her glasses, letting them drop on a chain against her bosom, looking a little perturbed, or maybe just befuddled. She listened her gaze to her customer. I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 00:04:57 Stanford said you, you weren't expecting me. I guess I'm supposed to have an appointment for this kind of thing. So it was dim in her mind deliver some must've heard at some point that Mrs. Multimin had retired from teaching to open up a bridal shop. And so she wasn't quite as surprised as she might've been when Mrs. Muldoon's eyes lit up and recognition and she let us in the Quip door to smother lubricity and an all-encompassing hug, not for a local Clarissa, Pearl. She cooked groomed. Hi, how are you? I heard you might be back, but my word, look at you. Louisa Pearl on my front stoop don't stand there. Come in. Where was it? Took a step forward so that she stood in the center of the room. The stop was small and square with a display case toward the back and dresses hanging all around the perimeter so long and sleek others puffed and gauzy.
Speaker 2 00:05:43 Most of them, some tone of creamy. Off-white one corner featured a small collection of mother of the bride and bridesmaid dresses, ruins salmons TEALS, while the other displayed in a certain avail Lacy piped pattern. Well, I'm not really back liver. So struggled to release this herself from Mrs. <inaudible> tug Kenny. Larry saw you coming off the train this afternoon. He and I both get coffee after lunch at Antonio's. And somehow don't ask me how I knew you did. I, I had a full-on premonition, Mrs. Muldoon stepped back and stood grinning at Louis a hands on her hips. I just knew you'd come visit me at the shop, but was the I'm trying to look non-committal. I'm not sure whether to blow her cover. So as soon accounts are they actually French. She asked with being around Mrs. Bowman waved her hand in the air as if swatting a fly.
Speaker 2 00:06:33 Oh no, no. That's just a gimmick to get people in the door. They stood there for a moment facing each other while the rest of took it all in her gaze, starting at one quarter of the shop and working around to the other. So many, she said not knowing what else to say, Mrs. Muldoon flattened her palms in front of her and pumps them up and down as the halting, a moving vehicle. Now don't panic. It can be overwhelming, but don't worry. I can absolutely find something perfect for your special day. I have a knack for finding the right dress. No, no, there was the start again, but Mrs. Muldoon cut her off livers that Pearl was getting married. She chatted hopping in place on her medium peeled pumps. Liver's a Pearl is getting married. So I'll stop there. Roos get started.
Speaker 0 00:07:16 Yes. And also thus begins the mild untruth that Larissa shares with people during the course of the book. And why don't we start there? Um, there's a lot of threads in the book. They mostly revolve around Larysa and her relationships with different people and she does kind of get herself in some trouble by trying to make everything fit or make it all right. And I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about that. No spoilers. Of course,
Speaker 2 00:07:47 Of course. Yeah, of course. So, you know, what was this from the beginning? I recognized that she sort of wasn't quite herself. Um, she's, you know, one part of the story, but, uh, after, you know, she's sort of noticed this leak in the wallpaper, she takes a crowbar to the wallpaper in an effort to kind of find the source of the leak and right. She buys this dress. So she has no groom and she perpetuates these lies and grappling with her mother's family health. And I realized, um, that she's just, she's not quite herself. And this was a state that I re I recognize really, because it was something I deeply felt when I was grappling with my own mother's illness and then subsequent deaths from breast cancer. Um, and even though there was his mother is struggling from dementia, not cancer. Um, as I began to delve into the writing of the story, um, Larissa's deceptions really became a vehicle to explore the feelings of loss of identity, disorientation, and confusion that consume a child, even an adult child who becomes the caretaker of an ailing parent. And, and that's really where I found I wanted to go with the story.
Speaker 0 00:08:58 Yes. Um, talk some, one of the characters that has passed, but it's a very, very, um, a big part of the book is Ursula. And another big part of the book is Elmhurst, which is a character in itself, the, the mansion, um, you want to talk about Ursula and the mansion and the mansion is quite, I, I get a beautiful view of it in my mind. And then I see Larysa going at that wall. And I think the same thing, she's, she's a little upset. So anyway, talk about Ursula and Elmhurst.
Speaker 2 00:09:33 Yeah. So, so Lisa has a great honor. So who's whose past, she's no longer present, as you say, in the, in the present action of the book, she's no longer alive rather than the present of the book. Um, but she really is a character in the book. That's still on the present. And, um, Larissa had a very close relationship with her. She never married, um, especially as a bit of a foil in a way to this wedding plot that's going on. Um, and we learned more about that as the book unfolds. Um, but she's sort of this grand old character who, you know, eats French lentils and Jill salmon and dill. And, um, she teaches Larissa and the character of the house named Jack, um, you know, kind of about the finer things of life. So, so she's really the flashbacks and sort of a memory she's really still very much alive in the book.
Speaker 2 00:10:24 And I was blessed with, um, so very charismatic, older relatives, female relatives in my life. And I really drew on, on many of them for that character of honor slushies. She's a fun character. And then yes, Elmhurst is the house that Larissa has inherited from her great aunt. And he was very much a character in the book. Um, Loris has known it, um, her entire life and Jack, the male character has been the caretaker of it since he was 17. He's now 40 ish and the book and, um, the two of them embark on some, um, renovations of the house together. And, um, they've known each other for some time, but they've never quite, you know, kind of come into each other's orbit in quite this way until now. So the house is a vehicle sort of in the render, uh, for them to get to know each other.
Speaker 0 00:11:12 And there's also a relationship, as you said, between Jack and Elmhurst. Uh, that's the beginning of, of Jack's part of the story and he loves Elmhurst and he talk more about that relationship. It's a real human relationship.
Speaker 2 00:11:30 Oh yeah. I mean, I mean, Elmhurst is sort of like, um, you know, his wife sort of, um, refers to it as, as his mistress in a way, you know, because he's, he's always there, he's worked there since he was 17, he's kind of a do it yourself or he's he runs a contracting business. Um, but he also has this. And so he's taught himself through the years since he was 17, how to renovate this house and cared for it. So he, he, he, in some ways actually really at the beginning is more invested in the house of Larysa because he's felt her bones, you know, he's, he's fixed the windows and he's, he's, uh, re singled the roof on the carriage house and he's redone the electrical system and, and he really knows the house inside and out.
Speaker 0 00:12:19 And then he, and, uh, Larissa have to start putting the house back together again, after she tears the wall down and they decide to do a full renovation. Right.
Speaker 2 00:12:31 That's right. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:12:33 Um, you do a really good job of, of presenting a small town community and all the different things that happen in a small town. And I'm wondering, have you lived in a small town or how did you, uh, know all the truths of a small town?
Speaker 2 00:12:50 Yeah, my grandmother grew up, uh, well, I grew up north of Boston. Um, and my grandmother lived for many years nearby in the seaside town of Beverly farms, which is next to Manchester by the sea. Um, to may know that from the name from the movie. And they're both these really small, charming seaside towns, they're sort of proposals each of them one main street that runs through the center of town. So I really grew on both of these towns. Um, um, the setting for both of them are just deeply ingrained in my psyche and I drew enough as I created this fictional town, um, of Ken's crossing. Um, so, so I, I did have a very strong, uh, feeling for this, for this talent and what it was like
Speaker 0 00:13:33 Now in the acknowledgements. Let's talk a little bit about you. It implies, and I don't know if I'm right about this, but it applies that you're a part of triplets. Is that true?
Speaker 2 00:13:42 I am actually. And there's a set of fraternal triplets in the book. Um, I, you know, quick sort of tangent here, my parents were expecting twins I'm in my late forties. So ultrasound at the time was very existed, but it was primitive. And so, um, literally until my sister was born, they thought they were having twins. So I was born first and my brother was born second. Yeah. And my, my father said, oh, well, more. We want one of each, a boy and a girl that's great. And the doctor said, well, wait a minute, one more day.
Speaker 2 00:14:19 So, um, and it's something, you know, I never really thought I would write about, but then as I was reading these pages, I realized that part of Larissa's struggle is one of identity. And also the mother's struggle is one of identity she's dealing with dementia. And I knew that Jack, the male character had some kids and I thought, wouldn't it be interesting to make them triplets of fraternal triplets? So again, not identical. Um, but just to amplify this idea of identity, um, because triplets like most siblings, but, you know, perhaps even more so triplets are very interconnected, um, you know, can kind of finish each other's sentences. And even though the night ethical, their, their relationship, um, is intense. You know,
Speaker 0 00:15:05 Another thing you do a good job of, I grew up in part of the time I lived on an island in Maryland and I had close ties to the water. And you do a very good job of Jack's relationship with the, with the water. Why don't you talk a little bit about that?
Speaker 2 00:15:21 Yeah. So again, um, I grew up on the water. I grew up, um, on the north shore of Boston. My father was an avid sailor. He had a small sailboat, um, you know, very much like the boat that Jack has in the book. Um, and I, even though I'm not as much of a sailor as my father, you know, if I had a rig boat, I could get my way around. Um, I also grew up going to Southeast Nane and so the water, um, and the boating world is really central to my life. And, um, again, that's something I hadn't written about before, but one I really loved writing about actually. Um, and when, yeah, yeah, go ahead. Well,
Speaker 0 00:16:02 When you and your brother and sister, did you go out on the water the way the triplets in the book do, and, and
Speaker 2 00:16:11 We did, and the boat and the boat and the book is named hatrick, um, in my father's boat was named Patrick and the, the joke is, you know, hatrick, um, you know, hockey is three girls in a row. So you think about that in terms of triplets, that was sort of an analogy for the trip.
Speaker 0 00:16:31 Yeah. Um, first novels are often a bit autobiographical and, and it sounds like yours is a bit autobiographical. You want to talk about how you, uh, work your own stories into this story and, and what it all means to you.
Speaker 2 00:16:50 Yeah. You know, so I said earlier, um, my mother was diagnosed with breast cancer. I was much younger than low risk isn't misspoke. Clarissa is, um, turning 40. And I was, I was 22 when my mother was diagnosed, my parents were divorced. Um, and, um, I ended up being one of her main caretakers because, uh, I just graduated from college. Um, you know, she was living alone. Um, and I found at a time I really had this sort of like altruistic attitude of like, I can handle this, you know, I am going to hold it together and just keep my cool and, and get through this kind of head down, get through it. Um, and so as I was writing the part of the Risa, and I knew that she was really struggling with her mother's illness, I related to that, but there were some differences in that, you know, um, Larissa sort of takes it different way.
Speaker 2 00:17:49 I took it sort of, um, like I, I'm just going to kind of face this head on and not have the emotions, whereas Wortha, doesn't want to face it at all and wants to sort of be in denial that it's happening. And part of her denial is just engaging in more and more and more allies related to this wedding that she's not actually having. Um, so that was one of the ways in which I really brought myself into the book. Um, I've also always had a fascination with old houses, um, when my husband and I were first dating, uh, he, I realized he had a fascination with old houses as well. And we would often take, um, walks down a street nearby Elmhurst road, where we admired a historic house there. Um, and several years later we were married and, um, I had step kids and also have a young child and this house came on the market and we were like, oh my God, it's meant to be. Um, and we made a bid on the house, but we didn't get it. Unfortunately we did later get our own historic house. I know, but it seemed like, and, and by that time I had started this novel and I began to, you know, I had this idea of this house on a hill and I named the house Elmhurst in tribute to this house on Elmhurst drones. So there were some fun, some fun, um, bits from my real life that needs into the book. For sure. Have you
Speaker 0 00:19:10 Ever driven a rolls Royce? I'm just curious.
Speaker 2 00:19:13 Oh my gosh. No, that would be amazing. I'd love that. I have not, I can drive six months, but I have not driven a rolls.
Speaker 0 00:19:23 Um, let's see. Where am I at here? Um, let's move on to you as a writer for a little while. Talk about the Grove street writing community.
Speaker 2 00:19:35 Yeah. So grub street is an amazing writing community in Boston. Um, they are, they're fantastic. I've been a member since I want to say 2003. Um, and they just, they're wonderful, supportive writing community. They offer writing classes, um, for the, for Boston and the greater Boston area. Although now they're reaching beyond because they're online. Um, they're on zoom. Um, and you could take a, um, you know, six to 10 week class, or you could take a beacon seminar that might last one, two days. Um, and they're also, they also hold annual an annual conference called the muse in the marketplace, um, where, uh, writers and agents and editors and, um, authors get together to kind of talk and learn about the industry. And it's an, it's an amazing conference and it's grown tremendously. So started out, you know, back in the early years, they'd probably have 200 visitors and now they have I think, seven or 800 plus. Um, and in addition, I have a wonderful writing group. We call ourselves the salt and radish writers, um, and end that all of them, um, through the grub street community.
Speaker 0 00:20:50 Um, how do you feel that writing communities and writers groups help a writer and also how did your writing group help with this book?
Speaker 2 00:21:02 Yeah, so, you know, writing is quite a solitary task and, um, it's, you know, on the one hand, you know, I love that because I, you know, I do, I do love sort of, you know, getting into the book and sort of digging in and, and world-building, and, and, you know, um, homing in, on my own, on the other hand, there are days where it's, you know, the blank page is quite a challenge. You kind of don't know where the store is going to go next, you're banging your head against the wall. You don't, you don't kind of feel motivated. And so, um, a writing group, having somebody to kind of take you out of that void in that vacuum and, um, to offer insight and advice is really invaluable. Um, and with this book, um, you know, it's interesting this book, uh, really sort of meshed with me quite well from the beginning.
Speaker 2 00:21:51 If it's not the first novel I written this, the first one I've gotten published. Um, but even so, you know, you, you end up, you know, kind of inspiring yourself so deeply that you, you don't have perspectives. So, um, my writing group, we try and meet every two weeks. Um, we usually hit that mark sometimes it's three to four weeks, but it's usually right around two weeks. And even during the pandemic, we've been meeting over to, um, before the contender, we would meet and have drinks and a meal, but, um, and then we critique each other's work and just having an extra set of eyes and an extra input, you know, and sometimes they would, um, you know, they might all hone in on that particular section where they'll say, you know, something's not working and they haven't, they have different ideas on how to fix it. But if, if at least, you know, two of them, and certainly if all three of them agree that this section isn't working, then you know, it's not working and I've got to address that. And that, that kind of insight and input is invaluable. And also they're just, they're just great cheerleaders, you know, they, they keep you going when you're feeling down and, you know, writing with a writing life, you, um, rejection comes hand in tap.
Speaker 2 00:23:08 Yeah. Talking to you through those rejections and, and boosting you propping you back up.
Speaker 0 00:23:13 Yes. We're almost out of time. We've been speaking tonight with Jennifer D P author of the little French bridal shop. And, uh, so my last question is what's next? What have you got in the hopper?
Speaker 2 00:23:28 Yeah. So two pieces that I'm working on one I'm really only actively working on, um, it's, it's still just eating. And so I won't say much about it yet. Other than that, I think it takes place in another difference. You cited ho town and there's, there's a, there's another, um, health or building. It might be sort of an old hotel that that's, that's sort of another character in the book. Um, but the piece that I'm actively working on, it's quite different than the little French bridal shop. It's the first person narration told from the perspective of a seven year old girl, her mother is pregnant and the entire family is eagerly awaiting the birth of this new baby girl. But the story is really set in motion when a strange man arrives at the end of the driveway and claims that that baby could be oh,
Speaker 0 00:24:15 Okay. That sounds interesting. Sounds like fun. Another book with some secrets involved in it.
Speaker 2 00:24:23 Yes, yes, exactly.
Speaker 0 00:24:26 Uh, Jennifer, it's been wonderful talking to you. The book is the little French bridal shop by Jennifer doopy, who is the publisher I, a book is across the room. So
Speaker 2 00:24:36 Yes, that's fine. It's Saint Martin's
Speaker 0 00:24:38 Saint Martins breath. All right. So, uh, thank you very much for your, uh, wonderful interview. I hope you have good luck with the book and, uh, all that have a good evening and thanks very much.
Speaker 2 00:24:54 Thanks so much. It's been a pleasure. Great. Bye-bye now,
Speaker 1 00:25:14 Today I am talking with Francis. The authors of the book would advantage in an age of technology in turmoil. This work offers a reason to be optimistic. Humans have a unique ability to frame or thinking mental models and can come up with solutions that meet our moment in history. Francis Deverr court is professor of management science and the director of the center for decisions, models, and data at the European school of management and technology in Berlin. Welcome to write on radio Francis.
Speaker 3 00:25:45 Thank you. Happy to be here.
Speaker 1 00:25:46 So framing framing is fundamental to human cognition. However, it was only until recently, was there serious research and focus in on this aspect of our mind? Why did only gain prominence recently?
Speaker 3 00:26:02 Well, I guess because they were also some more basic functions to understand like memory, um, and other type of, um, cognitions that we have been researching first, and he's only, you know, I started maybe at the middle of the 20th century, but it's really late 20th century, early 21st century that they, where there has been a lot of work on, on my ability to represent the world and to use mental models, to make decisions.
Speaker 1 00:26:31 What are the Keating greens would you say to make up framing decision-making that we make in our daily lives?
Speaker 3 00:26:38 Well, in the book we described three key component and the first one is causality. Human cannot help to think causally. We are programmed to look at, uh, effect and consequences. Um, and so these help us make the world predictable, whether we are right or not. Uh, but we have to have a reason for how the words work. And then the, the, we use his causal template. If you want to produce what we call counterfactual, that his reality that is beyond the fact that help us protect us into the future, but also imagine how the world could have been. So this is what we do when we ask what if questions, but we can ask a lot of different. What if questions we can have wildly Mandy imaginations, and if we are too wide or ideas or pallial world, if you want won't have any connections with the reality. So we need to imagine, but under constraints and the constraints of the third element of, of the mental model, that's why we call it the frame. You know, the frame is really constraining what you can see, what you can imagine. And so the three components again, is it's causality, counterfactual and constraints, right?
Speaker 1 00:27:52 So there's causality, counterfactuals, and then, uh, constraints we put to, or to actually have effective frames. We use to build the world around us. Why is it essential for us to have restrictions on frame building?
Speaker 3 00:28:05 Because it's easy to have ideas. We all have crazy ideas all the time that that's not, what is difficult. What is difficult is to have good ideas idea that works in, in reality, and to help that we need to constraint or thinking, we need to constraint on imaginations to really focus on what could work and ignore all the noises of those crazy ideas that may not work. So that's why in fact constraints are the key element, um, of, of framing.
Speaker 1 00:28:35 And I, I had a note in my notes here. I like, there's a point in the book where you say how using constraints or miles is suggested, but we should also use the fewest modifications when we make those constraints. I was wondering, could talk about why that's important
Speaker 3 00:28:49 That that's right. I mean, it's, this is a bit conceptual, but the point is, um, when you have a good frame that is working, um, like, like we have a lot of frames of physics for instance. But, um, and, and if it's, if it's working, you don't want to deviate too much, because if you deviate too much, you start to have crazy thoughts. You start to believe that you can beam yourself in a parallel universe. And so playing with your friend and with was one of the principle is stick to what you know works. So the why's too risky.
Speaker 1 00:29:25 There is. So you touched on this already. I want to ask you more about this because I think this feature of framing is so, so fascinating. You talk about the book, how framing is this ability to envision other realities that make possible individual achievement and societal progress. And I like this in my notes, I wrote as being using imagination as a ruler for reality. And how does framing allow us to envisage what isn't there? I know you give examples of how the Apollo 11 mission, no one had ever actually navigated space before we had to imagine this scenario, but that would look like going, traveling over 200,000 miles to reach the moon.
Speaker 3 00:30:00 Now that, that that's great. In fact, if you, if you step back and if you think about the biggest innovations of humanity, they all, or most of them happen before we had the data to show us that they were correct and going to the moon. It's one example. In fact, the real direct data we had from the moon is when I'm strong, put his feet on the surface before it was all just representation about how things would happen. So that is something that for instance, machine can do. Machine requires a lot of data to make a decision, or at least a predictions. And the, the, the, the machine is really stuck, very close to the data on which it is trained. The human in contrast can take couple of data points, connect the dots and project itself. Well, beyond that, you have that with business model, like when you have company that disrupt an industry, everybody's how they see the first time you see, let's say Airbnb disrupting a whole industry. Nobody did that before, but they could do that because they created a model. It's a business model, but it's the representation of how things would work before having all the data to prove that their ID was correct. So that's really the power in the end of our ability to modern and represent the world
Speaker 1 00:31:23 Clear in the book, how there isn't a bad frame per se. It's just a matter of applying to the right context and playing it out. However, you do have one exception that there is a bad frame. I was wondering to describe what that is.
Speaker 3 00:31:37 So let's, uh, let's just start with your first point is for instance, when we think about earth, we think as it as, as a sphere, so it's, this is a way to represent the world. It's a sphere. Other people think, I mean, few people, but still some believe, uh, represented as something flats, the flat earth, uh, frame, the flat earth frame is not the bad frame. In fact, we use it all the time because when you go from a, to B around you, you not think of earth as something wrong in your mind, you only see the map is two dimensional. So it depends in which context you are, if you flying, or if you send a rocket in space, yes, you need the sphere metaphor. This, the sphere fare frame, sorry, but again, when you're driving, you're more thinking of the flat frame. So having many, many frames is important because you need to adjust to the situation in which you are.
Speaker 3 00:32:32 And that's why we are really advocating to letting people develop, embrace as diverse frames as possible. But there's only one bad frame, which is precisely a frame that prevents you to have this diversity of friends. And that example we give in the book is, are terrorists. I mean, they, there was an attack in Paris terrorist attack, and we remember September 11, in fact, terrorists and their research that show that they are stuck in one frame and one frame only. And it's a very rigid friends. So the whole world is explained by these frame. And it's very scary because they cannot address and they cannot change different perspective. So that, that creates terrible, horrible things. So that the that's what I would call a bad frame, but any other friends has the right to exist. And who knows, maybe we can use these different friends in different situations.
Speaker 1 00:33:25 On a related note, there is this crisis you described in the book. There's a fight between those who believe in hyper rationalization through legs of AI, for example, and those who believe in the authenticity of our emotions, our gut instinct, I can't deny my feeling here. This has to be true because this is what I'm feeling, both approaches. Um, you say, um, combined the two can lead to dead ends. I was wondering, you could talk about how framing is more helpful in answering civilizational challenges.
Speaker 3 00:33:53 So first the, the, the, what you call the civilization challenges. We know we are going to face challenges. Um, I can, I can pick one for instance, which is antibiotics. Um, maybe your listener are not aware of that, but we have a huge problem with antibiotics because, um, bacteria are developing resistance and they are projection that says that by 2015, they will be 20, 50, sorry. They will be 10 millions of people dying on earth, uh, per year. So COVID is going to be a work in the park compared to that. And nobody's going to be protected. I mean, if you have resistance to antibiotics, you can live in a developed country. And the one of the most powerful country in the world like America is not going to protect you. The, the thing is that we know that whose challenge exists because we have the right frame.
Speaker 3 00:34:44 We know they are not there yet. Remember we don't have the hundred percent data yet, but we know what's going on and we can do those counterfactual and, and protect ourselves in the future. So Fran is what enables us to know that we have those challenges and they are also part of the solutions and why they are part of the solutions is because it enables us to uncover new alternatives that we didn't think of before suite a framework, what it does for you, that it expands the set of alternatives you have. Now, I don't, we don't offer concrete solutions yet for those challenges, but we are certain that if we learn collectively to be better framers, we will hopefully, um, have the right solutions for the problems we are facing. So it's really about nurturing abilities so that we can mitigate what our frames are telling us is going to be a big, a big danger for all species,
Speaker 1 00:35:43 I think is a great time to ask you about how framing the issue of COVID-19 brought out different ramifications within different countries. I was wondering to talk about how new Zealand's response to COVID-19 different from other countries and how they're able to resist the different impacts of the pandemic versus other countries. How did their framing of the issue? I mean, it helped them avert. Lot of the problems the rest of the world have dealt with.
Speaker 3 00:36:06 You know, it's a, it's a, it's a very interesting question because COVID happened while we were in the middle of writing the book. I mean, we were finishing up, but, and, and we were writing on a pandemic, uh, which was a different one, which was in 2014 in Africa. It was the Ebola. I do not know if you remember, but they had been, uh, um, an outbreak of Ebola, which is a very daily virus. They were a couple of cases and they were two organizations on the ground, which was who, and, and a nonprofit organizations. And they had exactly the same data, exactly the same expertise, the same goal to eradicate, uh, theses outbreak. And they reached totally different conclusion. And so, so how come, how come with the same data or the same expertise, the same goal, you reach totally opposite conclusions. And the reason is because they were applying different frame and I'm not going to get into the details of those differences, but they look at the same problem with different representation, different models.
Speaker 3 00:37:09 And as we were talking about that, like real time, we saw on a much larger scale, uh, with COVID several countries framing exactly the same problem, like the same virus. It was exactly the same virus. And of course, everybody wanting to achieve the same thing, but they were framing the same problem totally differently. And so what happened in that you had the UK, and, but to be fair, it's not only the UK. I mean, it's mainly developed countries did the same thing is that to frame that, that, that, uh, uh, outbreak as something more like the flu, which is more dangerous, but we see something that you can contain basically. So let us take mitigation actions. We are going to contain it, um, and continue to live our lives. Normally what New Zealand, DD that is to frame it, not as flu, but to frame it as source and south was a very dangerous virus, as we know now.
Speaker 3 00:38:02 Um, and, uh, that happened in Asia. So what is in interesting with New Zealand that New Zealand has a food in Asia and a food in, in Europe and UK, especially. And so they had to do frames or their disposal. They could choose to follow the UK to use the flu frame, but they pick up the sauce frame, which is not about mitigation, which is about elimination. So they took very, very radical actions, um, to con to, to eliminate it. They were successful. And in fact, they are very recent, sir, uh, data that shows that not only new fare, better with, with health issues, but their GDP, uh, were better than comparatively to the UK. Um, and so they, they won on both fronts by framing it the right way. So framing properly can save life.
Speaker 1 00:38:52 Having a rich repertoire frames can make it easier for person to find the best solution for a given situation. I was curious if you could talk about how, or what is your recommendation for trying to acquire a catalog of frames to work with to apply to a situation.
Speaker 3 00:39:07 So I think it's to get out of your comfort zone is to, um, when you, when you want to listen to a podcast, I should not say that on your show, but, um, we tend to listen to the same podcast. Of course, the one that we like and certainly yours. Um, but it's nice time to time to listen to the podcast. We don't want to listen to it. Like we think we, we, yeah, we, it's not, it's not interesting. Or we may be shocked with what people are saying. And as we listen to these other podcasts, it's about making, not getting bored, not getting angry, but to try to uncover what are the causal assumption that people are making about how the world work, what are the constraints they are putting on their, on their thinking, what they, what do they leave outside, but what are their focus? And by doing that, we learn new ways of representing the world. And who knows again, you know, it depends on the context, that frame may be helpful to you in a different situations. So that's how you expand is to force forcing yourself to go outside, what, you know, best outside, what interests you and to read what you would not read. Normally
Speaker 1 00:40:22 You touched briefly about machines and or programming, and, um, why is framing impossible for a machine to emulate?
Speaker 3 00:40:30 I love that question. Um, um, let me step back just, just a sec, if you, if you allow me please, uh, the machine, if you think about it, um, the machine is the outcome of a reframing. So the very meshing we have, um, was born from someone called L entering, um, who reframe what mathematics is basically, and the, the, the way reframe it. He says, you know, when you write a mathematical proof, it's like typing on a typewriter. And that typewriter, it was just in his mind if wrote a whole research paper about it, but it was just abstract when the typewriter is either computers, I'm using rhino to do a zoom session with you. So the machine was born out of ability to frame. No. Why does a machine can't frame is because the machine, the only thing that the machine does in the end is to get close to the data and then face a problem and try to, um, use the data to find data points that have rate close to what you observed.
Speaker 3 00:41:32 So it's stuck to the data, and that's why machines needs a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot of data. You, you saw the rise of machine learning because it came right after big data, basically. So we thought a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot of data machine is useless. What we can do though, we, we function totally differently. We use very few data points and we extrapolate well beyond whose data. We do think that the machine can't because the machine is stuck to these data. So in a saying that that's why the machine cannot cannot frame. And if you want me to be a bit more philosophical, if you imagine a machine that can frame that is can represent the world, develop his own or presentation of the world, at some point, that machine is going to create a representation of itself. And here you start to talk about consciousness self-awareness and I really think we are far, far, far away from that.
Speaker 1 00:42:25 My last two questions for you being this is right on radio. I think it's only approved. I have to ask you these questions years. Um, there's a great line that I think I'll never forget in the book. You talk about metaphors and the value of in trying to relay information, metaphors are an expression of frames. I was wonder if you could talk about the significance of that and why in like an evolutionary sense of how people develop metaphors for dispersing information?
Speaker 3 00:42:49 Well, so the, the metaphors and frames are, are linked in many ways. So it's, it's these communications, but or ability to represent or ability to develop whose mental model to in, in mental models was likely due to language. And because when we started to learn language or to develop language in the history of evolution, we started to use language to create meta for enthuse, make disability, to create meta for start to be a pro to mental model. And so there's a lots of research that show that probably our ability to represent the world is born from his language and see the ability to speak in metaphors. But of course you can use metaphor to try to, and this is, um, uh, advertisements is doing that all the time is to try to ADC, uh, mindset. That is a specific way of representing the world in someone has Ed's heads. Sorry. So, so that would be a way to change the mental representations to, um, someone else.
Speaker 1 00:43:58 And so one of the primary areas, of course, where we see a lot of metaphors cloud is in the form of storytelling, but I want about the value of that and how we use that base. We use it to maybe different assessments of how we play out different scenarios. I was really talking about me how storytelling works.
Speaker 3 00:44:13 I mean, so storytelling has many, um, component to it. What, what, what we know is that the idea of talking of, of telling stories and imagine, imagine meaningful stories plays out is also a way for us individuals to become better framers because we practice counterfactual. We imagine an alternative realities. If I tell you, um, John wanted to be king, he took some arsenic. I just told you to sentence and look at what happened in your head. You probably be you're in the middle age, probably you picture yourself some unhappy prints, and then you have a causal assumptions for why he's taking the arsenic because he wanted to be king. But all that is you creating these realities is counter factual based on the two sentence as I gave you. So the storytelling telling stories is also a way to practice that, to become better at it. And to train that cognitive muscle,
Speaker 1 00:45:18 We are unfortunately at time, but this has been to light. I've enjoyed every single part of this conversation with you. And it was a wonderful read. I would encourage anyone to check out framers human advantage in an age of technology and turmoil. Thank you so much for being with us. It was a real pleasure. Thanks.
