Speaker 0 00:00:06 You are listening to right on radio on cafe 90.3 FM and streaming live on the
[email protected]. I'm Liz hall
Speaker 1 00:00:16 And I'm Josh Webber tonight, Dave FEDEC we'll interview a special guest Tamra, Tammy Lee. It children's librarian for the Ramsey County library about children's books relating to civil rights and civil justice. Tammy coauthored, a piece on racial diversity and inclusion in story time for the ALS C journal children in libraries and as facilitating many workshops and discussions around equity, diversity, and inclusion in libraries besides being that person on various and assorted panels and committees. Tammy is passionate about racial equity, social justice, drumming, and kitchen chemistry. In the second part of the show, Dave will talk with Diane Wilson about our claim debut novel. The seed keeper Wilson is the author of the award-winning memoir spirit car journey to a Dakota past as well as beloved child. It Dakota way of life. She's the executive director for the native American food sovereignty Alliance and enrolled member of the Rosebud reservation and lives in Schaffer, Minnesota, all of this and more so stay tuned to right on radio.
Speaker 0 00:01:22 Dave, are you there?
Speaker 2 00:01:24 And here, Liz, you could go ahead. Well, that's wonderful that it was hi, Tammy. Oh, there you are. It's classic. You know what I mean? Like I'm at work. You're on mute. Welcome to the show, Tammy. Thank you very much. It's a delight to have you, uh, our first librarian that I'm aware of and, uh, we're going to have you back. We'll talk about that later. So Tammy, before we get started and talk about these, uh, books for kids, uh, young people, young adults and children. Uh, tell us a little bit about yourself. So we get to know you a little bit, um, your career as a librarian, how you found your way to Ramsey County library system.
Speaker 3 00:02:00 Um, I've worked for ramps County for a really long time, almost 25 years. Um, and so I was a circulation supervisor for a long time. I decided to go to library school, uh, uh, uh, St Catherine university actually St. Catherine college when I went, um, and, uh, I got my master's in library information science, uh, about 14 years ago. And, uh, I was doing children's services and managing a branch. And then I became a librarian, a children's librarian in the system. So I've been doing that for 14 years here at Ramsey County. So it's hard to be a public librarian just on your own. So I guess Ramsey County affords me the opportunity to be a public children's librarian.
Speaker 2 00:02:45 Yeah. And Tammy has prepared for all of us, an amazing list of books related to civil rights, civil justice, BiPAP issues, that sort of thing, which we are hosting on our
[email protected], uh, right on radio, our particular website. Um, so Tammy, uh, we're going to have you talk a little bit about that list. Um, you have a broken down by easy picture book, juvenile and young adult, Y a and M, but again, before we start talking about the books, set us up a little bit for what I'm perceiving to be an increased interest in these types of books over the last year for obvious reasons. And if you're not paying attention well, I don't need to explain things I guess. So has, has there been increased interest in books like this?
Speaker 3 00:03:30 There has been an increased, uh, increased in circulation of books on these topics, um, in the last few years actually, which I'm really happy to see. Um, I think parents are really, uh, seeking ways to talk to their children, uh, that language and vocabulary that is needed to be able to talk about these issues. Um, we've also, uh, uh, had programming more programming around these issues in the library. In fact, we currently are working with Ashley omen of allied folk, who is fabulous early childhood, well general educator, but she's doing programming for us, for children, um, around, um, anti-racism, which is wonderful. So she she's doing it now. And then more, we're going to have her back this summer as well, and great ways to start talking to young children about racism and white supremacy. Um, studies show that it's really, they're not too little if they're not too early, little children are not too young to know about the legacy of white supremacy and assists and systemic racism. And if we don't start talking to them about it at a young age, then, um, then we might lose them.
Speaker 2 00:04:44 And you mentioned young people, so maybe let's start there, Tammy, with, um, your list for an easy picture book, I guess, I guess is how you find that it's quite a robust list. I'm
Speaker 3 00:04:55 Sorry, I couldn't add it myself.
Speaker 2 00:04:57 That's wonderful. The more, the better, because these books are very popular, you can always check them out. So it's nice to have a lot of options. Um, so tell us about your list, uh, some of those books and why you selected them and maybe read us something if you'd like to.
Speaker 3 00:05:11 Okay. Um, so basically, uh, starting with easy picture books, um, uh, I, the, the list that I, that I made, um, it was kind of two parts. Um, there's some things that are really directly about, um, uh, anti-racism racism, white supremacy, that sort of thing, actually, very few. Um, but then there are other books that are also more supportive of children that are on the receiving end of, uh, of, uh, those systems and those things in society. So I'm, I'm starting out with some, uh, some books, uh, that talk more about, well, this one is actually kind of an activist book. Um, and I have a selection to read from this it's called, Oh, the things where for and since a lot of parents are taking their children to protests, um, children are seeing this on television. Um, you know, they're doing, uh, they're, um, uh, doing acts of resistance, um, as projects in school and reading about these things.
Speaker 3 00:06:14 I thought this was a great way to start. So, Oh, the things were for is by, uh, you know, Santo, Nevada. And, um, I'm just going to read you a quick selection. It's a book and rhyme and it's, uh, it's really a fun book with lovely, lovely illustrations. Um, uh, he's the author illustrator. And actually I have to admit, I was a little nervous about reading tonight because we haven't had Storytime in person for so long at the library. And I love a good starting time. I love to read the kids and groups, but I just haven't done it for so long. It's like, Oh no. So sorry. I had to time.
Speaker 2 00:06:49 Well, I can tell you that your listeners right now love listening to authors and writers and people read books. So, uh, where are you at prime for this? Right.
Speaker 3 00:06:57 Excellent. Excellent. Okay. When you go to a March and raise your sign high, you'll make people smile who thought you were shy and you'll make people wonder, does that kid really know why you do? No, of course, that's why you're there. You're there to say stop what's happening. It's not fair. They may say we know what you're against and poverty stop war, but okay. Then what are you for? Oh, what we're for? That's my favorite question. And I'm sure it's yours too, because you pay attention and you have so many answers and so many options, and so many solutions that you want to impart. The only hard question is where does one start? I love this book because it really, um, you know, it's a fun rhyming book, but it also really tackles issues of climate change, racism, poverty. Um, so many things just packed into this lovely, lovely, frightening, um, uh, Ryan, couple of a couple of days here. And I just, I'm so amazed that it works together so well. Um, but yeah, it's a really just, it's a great resistance book. It's a great book to read with kids or adults. Um, so I, and I just love like this powerful, like we can do it picture on the cover, so
Speaker 2 00:08:21 It's great. And it's
Speaker 3 00:08:23 A great book. So, and this is the same, uh, person that wrote, um, a is for activist, um, which is an ABC book. Uh, again, his name is <inaudible> and, um, it's an ABC book. Um, and the thing that I like about these, um, like an ABC of a quality or a is for activist, uh, by Chana, Oh, I'm sorry, is for activist or an ABC of equality by channel Jenelle, Ewing are that they do give families and children, um, the vocabulary and talking about these issues, the language to talk about these issues. Um, it's hard to talk about things like white supremacy or privilege or, um, systemic racism, if you can't define them and I can read about them, but they'll,
Speaker 4 00:09:12 It's such a great point. So, so how do kids react to these books? Say for example, at Storytime and the normal times when you can have it, and you're reading these books or they're sitting around reading them, w what's the reaction to these books?
Speaker 3 00:09:24 They, I have, uh, so a long time ago, the American library association decided to, um, simplify these kinds of, uh, these, uh, literacy terms, um, uh, like for logical awareness, because parents would be like phone of what. And so they decided to simplify it, to think, talk, read, write, and play. And so I decided when I was in a workshop training to learn these things that I was going to add my own and at the time, cause this was like 12, 10 years ago. Um, I added what I called at the time, cultural literacy. Um, so I was going to make every single story, time include an element of, uh, of race or culture. Ethnicity is something that was just not, uh, but didn't ignore, um, that we had a full diverse community. So it's going to include equity, diversity and, and every story time. And then I also put a numeracy, which I thought was important, that kind of outing. But, um, so, so my straight-on time, kids are really used to that. Um, I read a lot of books, uh, that are kind of along these lines, but I'm not sure that every librarian is comfortable doing so. Um, and how I know that is because I've trained many librarians really well doing that. Or another thing that sometimes, uh, librarians will say, they'll say, uh, my community is not diverse, so I don't need to do that. And that's not true.
Speaker 4 00:10:56 You should do it
Speaker 3 00:10:57 Exactly. One thing that I like to reference, um, uh, are the, uh, the cooperative children's book center out of Madison, Wisconsin collect stats every year. And you can go online. In fact, I'm sorry, I didn't send it to you already, David, but I will send it to you. Um, at our own, uh, Dr. Sarah Park, Dahlin from St. Catherine university, um, helps put this together, but they do an infographic that show, um, how often, uh, a diverse array of children are reflected in children's books. So as of 2018, 50% white, 27% animals, 10%, African-American 7% Asian American, 5% Latin Macs, and 1% indigenous. And this is 2018. That was the last time that the statistics were put into an infographic they're collected every day. So, um, it's not only important that, um, uh, uh, uh, BiPAP children, black indigenous people of color children, um, or children from marginalized communities see themselves reflected. It's also important that majority white kids also see that they're not the only ones that can find the thing and solve the crime. And, and, uh, so I always think it's certain to make sure that we do that.
Speaker 2 00:12:21 We lost you a little bit there, but I think we got your just Tammy. Uh, you broke up a little bit, but I'm going to remind our listeners that we are speaking with Tammy Lee librarian for Ramsey County, and I'm also going to be Ramsey County libraries. And I'm also going to remind them that this is pledge week at KFH. And it's a great time to show your support for programming like this guests, like this shows like this, that don't exist, uh, on any other radio station in the twin cities. And, and, you know, probably along way beyond that into, into, into greater Minnesota. So, uh, get onto a K F a i.org and, uh, uh, show us a little love for, uh, for our, uh, public radio station here, a community sponsored, supported radio station and for programming, like right on radio. Right, Tammy, what do you think?
Speaker 3 00:13:09 That's an awesome idea. That's excellent.
Speaker 2 00:13:12 Thank you, Tammy. Let's move to juvenile because believe it or not, we're already cooking through our, our program here.
Speaker 3 00:13:19 Um, uh, the juvenile books that I have for you. Uh, there's a couple of, or there's a few, um, some are a little bit more, uh, I tend to think anecdotally that a J or like middle greater middle school aged kids, like narrative they're like stories. Well, no, everybody likes their own thing. There's some middle grade kids that like nonfiction and only, um, so everybody's different, but I do tend to see them be more attractive to these stories. So I did choose a couple of stories. The first one, um, is what lane by Toria Molvenado. Um, and one thing that I think, uh, that it's interesting. One thing that I think is interesting about this, and I'm seeing a little bit more of it. It's a, the lead protagonist is biracial. And actually according to, I can't remember the name of the foundation, um, but the fastest growing segment of our population are biracial or multiracial, multiracial people.
Speaker 3 00:14:23 And so we're seeing more and more books that reflect that. Um, and basically, uh, the book is, is about a kid that is biracial and he has white friends and black men, black friends, and he's, he basically, he can't find a place to fit in. Um, and it addresses in a really subtle and easy way, um, a lot of those issues. And I think that those are really important things to talk about. Um, another book that I like for, uh, that those middle graders or J M is this book is anti-racist 20 lessons on how to, how to wake up, take action and do the work by Tiffany Juul. And it's a nicely, like compact, almost like app, you know, like I can book of activities, resistance activities that you can do to, uh, to be anti-racist, to resist and, um, give some history, um, uh, talks about like the Haitian rebellion, um, uh, the schools that were set up by white people for indigenous people early in our country's history.
Speaker 3 00:15:26 Um, uh, things like that. And then also, uh, some texts about some famous resistance leaders and our own history and around the world, but it's really accessible and, um, a lot of fun, um, uh, for those kids that like that non-fiction, um, world issues, racism, it really focuses on black lives matter, gives a lot of facts, um, a lot of pictures, um, but the history of racism and white supremacy in our country, and, um, some things, some activities to do to avoid that. And then these two books are both by Wade Hudson and Cheryl Willis Hudson, and they have a great publishing company that I just forgot the name of. Oh, no, the crown books. Uh, anyway, uh, we've had set in Cheryl Willis, Hudson, um, and one is the talk and it's conversations about race, love and truth. Um, and there are, uh, I think eight stories in here.
Speaker 3 00:16:26 Um, and the ones that stand out to me, uh, are 10 by Tracy backsies and our inheritance by Adam Gidwitz. Um, and they have great illustrations, but they are wonderful stories for make, uh, the concepts of race and social justice activism, um, uh, accessible to kids. And the other one from them as we rise, we resist, we raise our voices and I have a selection. Do we have time for it, for me to read a little bit, please do. And then we'll jump to young adults. Yes. Wonderful. Okay. All right. This one has a beautiful, this is the only thing that I regret about radio station by accurate homes. Um, uh, but it's by Kwame Alexander and it's called a thousand winters, uh, the other day on the way for bubblegum ice cream, her favorites, my six old cautions need to slow down. You're driving too fast.
Speaker 3 00:17:28 Dad. She exclaims where the worried from holding tears. She's not supposed to have yet or ever beneath her raised brow. And I don't want the police to take you away from me. On another day, we walk home from school. Like we have all year waving at the crossing guard, sloshing through the puddle tunnel, passing the corner church. When she asks, am I going to vacation Bible school this year? Yes. Is what I would have said without hesitation before Charleston. But today my words are cold. Hope is frozen summers here, but it feels like a thousand winters and the world is not such a beautiful place anymore. Dad, I asked you a question. She repeats last night, the sky was ablaze bolts of lightning shot across the night. Like our very soul was on fire. And I sat writing next to a sea of flames. Wondering if these are not times for poets, if words, sentences and books aren't enough anymore.
Speaker 3 00:18:21 If my first mistake was listening to NPR with her in the car, if this middle passage of murder is becoming normal, if those of us who jumped to wear the same ones, if we can't survive the storm, how will our children, how will our children, she asked for two scoots. I give her one is due for dinner, plus a topping, the red, white, and blue sprinkles dispersed like little stars across her face and shirt. And she devours her treat cone and all so fast and so free that when it disappears, she's in disbelief. So am I, that's lovely. There's just, it's like Jason Reynolds is in here and Tommy Bolden, um, just really beautiful, beautiful, uh, Toms and stories that are accessible for her for juveniles.
Speaker 2 00:19:09 Wonderful. By the way, you're a great reader, fantastic reader. Um, let's jump quick to young adult before. Um, we have to leave. All right, I'm ready.
Speaker 3 00:19:23 I want to do a shout out for this one. It's another, it's an, ER, I think it's the first book on black lives matter if I'm, if I remember correctly by a C Bradford Edwards and Minnesota's own Duchess Harris, who is a, um, professor of African-American history and something else, I'm sorry. I'm forgetting,
Speaker 2 00:19:44 Um,
Speaker 3 00:19:44 McAllister. Um, so inherently great blog. And she actually comes to the ramps County library regularly to, uh, teach and train. And she has something coming up, I think in June about racism and policing. So, um, she does a great job informing us, um, a great narrative book, a fiction book, um, that mirrors, um, what's going on in the world is by, I love Jason Reynolds, love, love, love, love Jason Reynolds, but, uh, all American boys by Jason Reynolds and Brendan Kiely or Kylie. I'm sorry, but I don't know how to say his last name. Um, but basically it's written, um, there's a, uh, situation, uh, an instance of police brutality. And, um, so Jason Reynolds writes from the, uh, black protagonist point of view and Brendan Kiley rights from the white protagonist point of view. And it's just a great, um, story with a lot to think about, um, others that I'd like to recommend for, um, young adults are these versions of stamped and just mercy, um, stamped, obviously, um, Ebro kid candy. Um, but Jason ran out. He got together with Jason, Jason Reynolds to, um, to make it more accessible to, to teens and young adults. And it is, I I've actually read both. Um, it took me probably a good two months to read the adult version and I was happy for this version, um, which took me like just a couple of days. So
Speaker 4 00:21:13 Thank you for bringing those. Thank you for bringing those to our attention. I'm familiar with these books and these authors, and I've read just mercy and some candy, but did not know that they were repurposed, if you will, for young adults, this is tremendous. Thank you for this. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:21:26 Um, I actually liked when that happens to you. There's another, uh, title that I love lies. My teacher taught me. I'm not gonna remember the author off the top of my head, um, but also repurposed for, uh, young people. And I love it. I love that. Um, yeah. And so, yes, Brian, Stevenson's just mercy. And to tell you the truth, I've read, uh, the adult when I haven't read this yet, but it is very popular and circulate throughout the library. So those are some, uh, that I had for, um, yeah,
Speaker 4 00:21:55 I would imagine a lot of these books and I've read the hate U give also very, very popular. I would recommend that to any adult listener. It's the hate you give by Angie Thomas?
Speaker 3 00:22:08 I did a book club, uh, my colleague Natasha Menz, um, who was a fabulous, uh, librarian also, uh, a black librarian. Yay. Cause there's not very many of us. Um, uh, we did a book club around that at the Ramsey County correctional facility. And it was the most fabulous book club that I've ever done. I think it was 11 or 12 guys. And, um, it was the most fabulous discussion. It went over for almost 40 minutes. We were so grateful for the staff for letting us stay extra. Um, one of the best book discussions I've ever had.
Speaker 4 00:22:41 Oh, tremendous. I I'd love to be a part of a book club with that book. And she has another book out. I understand which I haven't read yet. Um, uh, so how, um, a lot of books that are meant to teach us something when we're kids, we can, we have this radar, Oh my God. I'm being lectured or something like that. Um, I am assuming that these books sort of get their point across, get their message across and still engage, engage a student, right? No, one's being forced to read these books. Are they I'm asking for them, see what I'm getting at?
Speaker 3 00:23:16 Yeah. Uh, no, I, I think, uh, I think a lot of these books are incredibly accessible. One, um, books that I kind of wish we would have gotten to. This is actually my favorite book out of the whole pile. And I had a selection to read from this. This is one book that actually, like, I think that every family should actually own, I mean, I'm a librarian and usually I'm like, but it's called not my idea, not my idea, a book about whiteness by honest does. Yeah. Higginbotham and it's a book that every family should own. It is the only book that I've actually run across that addresses white supremacy and, um, where, um, and it's just, it's so wonderful. And without being like you were just talking about, it's not, it's not forced, um, it's not overly pedantic. Um, but it addresses an important topic in the exact right way. Um, it is the best book that we have so far, in my opinion about racism and white supremacy.
Speaker 2 00:24:19 Well, I have a number of nieces and nephews who are going to get this book sent to them very quickly. Uh, not my idea is the name of that book. It's that the wonderful Tammy Lee librarian at Ramsey County library system has shared with us this evening. This has been such a treat. Um, we are going to have Tammy Lee back, uh, in a few months to talk about adult books on this very subject. So that's going to be really something, uh, Tammy, I'm going to let you go and, uh, and with great gratitude for your time.
Speaker 3 00:24:50 Well, thank you very much. Day-to-day so much fun. Thank you for inviting me. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 00:24:58 And now this <inaudible> Minneapolis on the web. Hello? Well, Diane. Hello, Diane, Dave, you on the air. I'm on the air. See, isn't this fun community supported, volunteer, driven radio, Diane Wilson. Isn't that amazing? I love technology. Well, you're better than me, so welcome Diane. We're just thrilled to have you. Um, I'm particularly thrilled. I admire your work. And, um, and then Wilson is the author of the seed keeper, a novel, and she's chosen to write a novel after she's won an award for memoir writing and non-fiction writing just to rub every other writers nose in it. She's written a beautiful novel on the top of it, the trifecta. Congratulations. Thank you. Before we hear a little bit from the novel in it, we'd like to start off with a, a reading to give our listeners a sense, uh, for what they're, what they're dealing with. Tell us a little bit about, um, why you chose to, uh, explore the world of fiction or a novel like this and, uh, where the idea came from you do that beautifully at the end of the book, but let let's tell our listeners where this came from.
Speaker 5 00:26:46 Uh, you know, I, I think I've always had that desire. Like so many of us writers do too to want to tackle a novel to, to it's, uh, you know, it's a huge challenge as a writing project. And, but for me there was the, the, the big draw was to be able to really explore language, you know, to really have that opportunity to just work with the language in a way that, um, I think the, uh, memoir form and non-fiction, um, you, you kind of prioritize other aspects of the writing. And so into me was, was that opportunity. And, and I had, you know, years ago I had heard a story about, um, the COTA women in 1862, who had actually, um, because they were about to be removed from the state. They had actually hidden seeds in the hands of their skirts and in their pockets. And so, and they, so they were willing to do almost anything to protect those seeds and that story stuck with me and it, you know, the way things get into your, your subconscious and, and I just started to, you know, play with it and think about how I could develop that into the novel and what that would be
Speaker 2 00:28:06 Look like. Well, it becomes a wonderful metaphor, obviously. And, uh, w w we'll talk about that. Uh, do you have a sampling of your wonderful novel you can read for us right now with him?
Speaker 5 00:28:18 I do. Um, the main character is Rosalee iron wing. And in the first chapters of the book, she is actually going back to her childhood home where she was taken away, um, 22 years earlier. Um, and she went into foster care. And so this is, I'm gonna read just a short excerpt from the chapter where she first comes back to her childhood home, which is, um, out in the woods on a, uh, a Dakota reservation in that first moment, it seemed as if nothing had changed a coyote track, cross the small clearing and trailed off into the woods from the high branches of an Oak tree alone to Cody repeated its name, chickadee Dee Dee, the snow had drifted almost to the windows on the North side of the cabin, covered the stairs to the front porch, pushed up against the screen door, the shuttered windows, the cold chimney spoke of long absence.
Speaker 5 00:29:26 I couldn't move my heart jumped fast and hard as the snow inside. My boots began to melt. The wind dropped to a hushed silence as if the place held its breath waiting to see who had returned. I knew it was a foolish time of year to come. And yet here I was finally a mere two hours of driving, less than a hundred miles North of the farm, where I had married and raised a child until John's death. The month prior woke something in me, I had begun to dream again. At night, I returned to this land where my family had lived for generations, land protected from farmers and developers by by its bony soil and steep slope toward the river. My life had begun under a full moon in this cabin. I was the only child of Ray iron wing, and Agnes kills deer. A mother.
Speaker 5 00:30:26 I never knew my father said I entered the world in a wide-eyed silence. My first breath was a deep sigh. And when I left, when I was taken away, I had believed I would never return. I felt a sudden urge to move, to release the trembling in my legs, in the back of the truck, I found John's shovel and slowly carved a rough path to the front door. Breathing hard. As I swung each scoop of heavy snow to the side, I was relieved to find the door unlocked. My father always said it was better to let hunters use the place than to have them break a window to get in the door, swung open with the loud creak from unused hinges. I stamped the snow from my boots and brushed it from my pants. When I stepped inside, the air felt even colder in the dim light.
Speaker 5 00:31:21 As if the freeze had burrowed into the wood, my breath floated in a cloud of white vapor. I was afraid to touch anything afraid. It would all simply turn to dust or become a dream from which I would wake, how strange and oddly familiar to think that nobody knew where I was just like when I'd lived in foster homes after my father's heart attack, except I would not spend my days waiting and watching the door for someone to find me coming home was like swimming, upstream, searching for the beginning for the clean and muddied waters of my childhood.
Speaker 2 00:32:03 Thank you, Dan. That was Dan Wilson reading from the seed keeper. Her new novel. Diane is the author of spirit card journey to a Dakota past, which probably many of our listeners are familiar with. Uh, thank you for that reading. It really points up some of my notes here, in terms of the detail that you provide those sorts of loving way that you, um, bring us into nature into these scenes. It, it felt like for me, when I was reading it, I was reading memoir or reporting that we were moving through this space. So, uh, uh, kudos to you, is that cabin a real place or a place your imagination?
Speaker 5 00:32:40 It's, it's a composite like so much of the novel. It, it, I think about, um, actually I, there was a childhood cabin that my family used to go to that belonged to my grandparents. And so I, I tried to evoke the feeling of that place and then transport it to another location.
Speaker 4 00:33:02 Yeah, well, it's, it's beautifully. The whole novel is written like that. Um, I, I wanna the passage hinted at very important themes in the novel, the foster parents, um, recalling when, uh, native American children were taken from their families, uh, description of the land, and of course the importance of the land and the land land that was taken away, people moved off of land. Um, uh, we learn a lot about if we don't know about these places, these times in history, in Minnesota history from reading your novel, um, and you do a nice job. And I hinted at this with our previous guest in how you teach the trick for an author to bring these ideas into a story, uh, and move this story along. So for example, without lecturing us, if you will, these are really dramatic moments in the story and you go back and forth in time, and now I've lost the thread of my question. Exactly.
Speaker 5 00:33:59 I'm enjoying the, the trail, no, keep going. But, you know, it's really funny that I discovered that writing a novel is a really challenging, difficult, strange experience. And, um, uh, you know, you'd start writing and it turned out where I started was in the middle. And then I wrote back to the beginning and then I wrote forward to the end and then characters started to appear. And then, you know, and it's like, it's a long process of evolution, but the, you know, part of that framework was the, which is actually, it's a little bit in the background, but it's the journey of those seeds, right? And the fact that they open. So they're there. The one in that opening poem there they're asking what's happened. You know, we have this original agreement with human beings where you take care of us and we give you the gift of food.
Speaker 5 00:35:02 And then through that, all those voices that the seeds have a presence until you get to Rosalie, who is who's, who has, who is kind of the culmination of all those generations, who've gone, who have experienced assimilation. So from the 1862 war and boarding school and all these different experiences, we get to Rosalie, who's gone through the ultimate disconnect, which is to lose her family and her home and end up in foster care. And then, so then the question becomes, well then, is there a way back, can find your way back at that point when you have lost almost everything back to your family and your identity and your community.
Speaker 4 00:35:45 Right. Right. I want to ask you a direct question if I may about readers like me, and is it, what koozie is that the term? Do I have that right anyway, a white dude.
Speaker 5 00:35:57 Well, she, I like your accent though.
Speaker 4 00:36:07 I, and people like me have a responsibility to come to understand and learn about what happened here on this land that we, where we now live. I live in downtown Minneapolis near this beautiful river. Do I have a responsibility to read books like the sea keeper and understand what happened?
Speaker 5 00:36:28 Well, I hope so. I hope, um, I hope, um, everyone holds that responsibility. It's because it's about relationship, you know, our relationship to the earth to seeds, to everything around us. And that's the question that I asked through the novel is what happened to that relationship and what does that mean to us as human beings? And so that means you, me, everyone, we're all in this
Speaker 4 00:36:58 And reconciliation comes up in this book as a theme or an idea. Um, would you say the seed keeper as a novel is a novel of reconciliation,
Speaker 5 00:37:08 Um, in different ways? It, you know, it certainly Rosalie's reconciliation with, with what's happened in her family. Um, it's, you know, I don't think it answers, I hope it doesn't answer any questions, but the idea of reconciliation for me comes up around the ways that we grieve from the past, the ways that, you know, that's why I mentioned, um, the monument in new Orleans, for example. And that's an example of the way a community has chosen to remember a very, um, heartbreaking time of history. And does that, you know, does that monument help move that, that process, that grieving process forward, or does it hold it fixed in time with anger? And so these are some of the questions that I, I try to open up.
Speaker 4 00:38:05 I love that you say you hope you don't provide answers and only raise questions. And that's, I think that's exactly right. Uh, tell us about that monument and tell us about what it describes to, so our readers know exactly what we're talking about.
Speaker 5 00:38:17 Um, so there is a scene, um, early on when, uh, uh, Rosalie is newly married to a white farmer, and he, he brings her to new ALM, which is, uh, uh, a good size town in, um, kind of central Southern central. And there is a monument that is centrally located that is dedicated to the, um, the, the families, the settlers who defended the town when it was attacked during the 1862 Dakota war. And, and that, that monument was then rededicated in 2012, which was the hundred and 50th anniversary of the war. And I I've re, um, I've, I've, um, included the, the inscription on that monument, which is, uh, very close to the exact that's on that monument. And it seems to me, you know, that, that, that, that is that's one way to hold your history, but what does it do for your, you know, what does it do in terms of achieving, um, any kind of forgiveness or actually understanding what, what created that, that war in the first place. And then I also give that example of the, um, the D the ride and the, um, the ride to commemorate the Dakota 38, which is a moving prayer, you know, that's where people are grieving and praying and honoring, and it's not a fixed in place activity, but it's, it's actually, it's actually engaging in that, in that grief. So trying to put those, those two, you know, those two very different cultural ways of remembering the past. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:40:08 You're and you're really fair to all of your characters. I must say, Diane, uh, it would seem to be easy to, uh, take sides if you will. Uh, but, uh, it's really a deep and nuanced sort of a examination of character. I want to come back and talk about RoseLee and John, but first I want to remind all of our wonderful listeners that they're listening to right on radio. Uh, and we are speaking with Diane Wilson author of the seed keeper, and we are a community sponsored radio station. Diane, did you know that indeed we are. And it did. They just pledged, what do you think about people who donate to KFA? They're pretty cool people, aren't they? Oh, they're, they're awesome. They're awesome. People be awesome. Like Diane and I go get onto K fai.org friends, please. And just to leave us a little love, we would appreciate it. Um, so again, Dan, let's talk about Roseli and John, it's such a wonderful romance, and I use that term with quotes because it's not a typical romance, right. It's a business relationship when they get to know each other, and it's sort of a business contract, sort of an extension of that business relationship when they actually get married, it's charming and it's lovely. And it's, it's really real. Um, so tell us why John, why did John become the husband of RoseLee in your mind?
Speaker 5 00:41:28 He was lonely. He was kind of an outsider, like Rosalie. Yeah. And, you know, and I think that, that he w he wanted to help, but he also desperately needed companionship in his own life. And so he, he was really drawn to seeing Roseli as another isolated individual who didn't have family like him,
Speaker 4 00:41:54 If I had that page marked and I have it marked up, but if I had a Mark of the bookmark, I would have read that section, where are they where he proposes?
Speaker 5 00:42:02 Oh, yeah, that's true. Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:42:07 And Rosely along the way as a metaphor for native and non-native relationships broadly speaking a parallel, if you will, that the mind to you that it did. Okay. Yeah.
Speaker 5 00:42:20 It was. And it was a place to explore that dynamic. And then also a place to explore that, that worldview that they both brought to, uh, cause he's a farmer. Right. You know, he's coming from a very different cultural background around farming and the world view that informs farming and the way that evolved and what Roseli came from growing up with a father who taught her about that
Speaker 4 00:42:44 Plants. Yeah. Yeah. And then they have a child and this, you know, it it's complex. Tell us about this song, please,
Speaker 5 00:42:55 With a son. That was a, he was a hard character to write because I, I feel that, you know, how conflicted it is or can be, I should say when you have two people who, who are very much committed to who they are, um, and the way that they were raised. And then how do you make that compromise in the child and the way you raise that child, if you have a very different approach to the world, which side takes precedence. And part of it is up to the child themselves to make those choices that they, as they get older. But, you know, when you ha also have an entire, um, the overwhelming presence of white institutions that are surrounding that child, then it becomes a great pressure to, to assimilate.
Speaker 4 00:43:48 I think for a lot of readers who it's most of us, uh, who didn't grow up in data, uh, and that his experience of living in two worlds, maybe being pulled from another world, uh, would be eyeopening. Um, to what degree is this still the case? That's a big question. I know Diane, but, uh, um, we're not just reading about the past when we read your novel. Correct. Right.
Speaker 5 00:44:16 I, you know, it would be, uh, who hasn't been been affected by assimilation programs that have been in place for many generations now. So a lot of the work that that is happening is, um, you know, uh, the work that I do personally, which is in food sovereignty, it's about reclaiming those traditions, reconnecting to indigenous foods, getting back to, um, what was the essence of, um, indigenous foods and relationships, and then, you know, and rebuilding and strengthening the culture from that point. So I think there is a lot of really great energy and momentum towards cultural recovery.
Speaker 4 00:45:00 Uh huh. And, and food as a part of that, that makes sense
Speaker 5 00:45:03 Is a huge part. Yes. And seeds are a huge part of the food world.
Speaker 4 00:45:08 Yeah. Um, Sean Shern do I have that name, right? Yes. Um, putting a restaurant in downtown. Yeah. Think we're all super excited about that. He's a big part of this movement, I imagine. Maybe not the same.
Speaker 5 00:45:23 Oh yeah. Hey it's he's right. He's right at the heart of it.
Speaker 4 00:45:27 Yeah. Yeah. Um, tell us about, uh, as a Gabby or gave you, how does she pronounce her name? Makes people say Gabby. Gabby. Yeah. Um, she's a wonderfully strong character too, uh, and brings to the fore a lot of ecological questions and issues that are still in play. Um, tell us about, you know, where she came from and if you would please. And, um, she, she, she transformed herself too, along the way. Yeah.
Speaker 5 00:46:01 Yeah. So Gabby is, um, Rosalie's really her closest friend and, and, and when she was in high school, really her only friend, um, and then there was a falling out at one point, but, um, they reconnect and they have such a different approach to life, but because of the, they're very different people, Gabby is a very kind of fierce, um, high energy activist oriented goes on to, you know, transforms herself to become a lawyer who's working on water issues and, you know, and so the two of them also just, um, their friendship was a place to explore the different ways in which we, we actually try to do this work to have, uh, how do you, how do you, um, help take care of the earth? Where do you connect? What's your relationship look like? What does it mean if you're an indigenous person trying to do this work and what are, what are the different ways and, and at what cost always. So Gabby helps bring that question, um, through her own life and experience.
Speaker 4 00:47:13 Yeah. Yeah. That's well described. Um, did you write poetry, Diane?
Speaker 5 00:47:18 You know, only, only when needed
Speaker 4 00:47:24 There, there there's there's poetry in this novel. And, uh, I'm looking at, um, a sexual murder RoseLee
Speaker 5 00:47:30 Is taking care of John that she falls asleep and has a dream for father's in the dream or narrates the dream. But there's a final line of the dream of prayer dream, I guess. Um, all these years I have been living inside this dream. Um, you recall this what's, Roseli talking about there that from the moment when her, her father had a heart attack, when he was out hunting and she was 12, and so he never came home. And so from that moment on her life just was completely appended when social workers took her away and she was placed in foster care. And so that life that she knew to be her life with her family, her father, um, that was her real life and everything else that happened after that felt like the dream that she always hoped to wake from, or she always hoped a family member would come and rescue her from that.
Speaker 5 00:48:26 Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's lovely. Um, I unfortunate to say we're nearing the end of our time together. Um, what are you working on next? What are you thinking about next? Well, the, you know, well, um, it's because it was so important not to answer all the questions in the novel, then I've been also working on essays where I can't answer them, you know, I need to get my opinion someplace. So yeah, a series best days on, um, they are related topics. So, you know, food sovereignty, uh, really interested in what was happening, um, around food systems after George Floyd was killed yourself. Yeah. And what happened to, um, the, the food access in South Minneapolis when target and Cub closed, for example. So, so issues around around that and how, how low that is a huge issue today. Oh, fascinating. Well, keep us in mind when those come together. I'm sure we'll see essays pop up here and there. Maybe we already have in various. Um, but, uh, we'd love to have you back again. We here have been speaking with Bannon Wilson, the author of the seed keeper, just out a novel. Uh, it's lovely. I recommend it to everyone. And, uh, thanks for being here, Diane. Yes. Appreciate it. Thank you, David. It's been a pleasure. All right. And now this
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[email protected]. I'm Josh Webber. I want to thank our guests tonight, Tammy Lee and Diane Wilson. Plus our listeners who make this show and cafe thriving without your support and donations cafe, I would not be possible. You can find out more news and info about right on radio at cafe.org/programs/right on radio. Plus you can make donations if you want to, by going to cafe.org and click the donate button also on KPI slash program slash round radio, you can listen to recent episodes. Our recently launched podcast on Spotify, iTunes and anywhere podcasts can be found. Now stay tuned for bones, Juul, Minnesota.
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