Speaker 0 00:00:00 <inaudible> you are listening to right on radio on KFI 90.3 FM and streaming live on the
[email protected]. I'm Liz olds tonight on right on radio. Dave will be speaking with Victor Pettine. Victor Pettine is the author of winning within impossible life events with IME possible results. As five other books. He is the creator of the highly acclaimed sexual abuse, awareness and prevention curriculum for children called be seen and heard through presentations and online programs. Patina has reached hundreds of thousands of children across the country over the last two decades. In the last part of the hour, we are having a blast from the past with the legacy interview. Re-entering a previous conversation that the right on team loves all of this and more. So stay tuned to write on radio. Hi Dave. Hi, Victor
Speaker 1 00:01:12 Has Mike Hugh. Thank you, Annie. Welcome Victor. Welcome to right on radio. Hi, thank you for having me. How's it going just to be able to have you, uh, it's going great. We're really excited to have you on the show. Um, so Victor, before we get started, you know, we'd like to start at the top of the show. We've talked about this with a reading, but before we do tell us about, tell us about this book in a sense that it's it's for me, it's a memoir, it's an inspirational book. It's, it's a book, it's a meditative sort of book. It's even a workbook for the reader and a collection of lyrics. There's a lot going on here. How would you describe winning within to our listeners? Yeah. So, uh, first of all, thanks for having me on your show. Um, w yeah, winning within is a book that I wanted to write, um, a long time ago.
Speaker 1 00:01:54 Um, it's really an account of, of all the obstacles that I've had to face in my life. And, you know, we all have faced many obstacles in our lives, but my life has been very interesting to say the least in terms of what I call falling off the skateboard, which I'll read a little bit about tonight, but, um, it's all about, you know, we all fall down. The question is what are you gonna do about it? And, uh, it's about having the courage to get back up and knowing that, uh, you can overcome anything if you decide that you want to do that, and you know that you don't have to do it alone. That's the key I feel. So thank you. Great introduction. So with that, why don't you start us off with the readings so we can get a sense of what you're all about here?
Speaker 1 00:02:35 Sure, sure. So this is just a part of a chapter called overcome the skateboard in the middle of every obstacle, lies opportunity. Albert Einstein. I am fascinated with the concept of dreams when I was a little boy, no one ever really asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up, I think children should have dreams. And I think adults should never stop dreaming. I think children should dream the impossible. Why not just think before electricity, no one thought it could exist until Benjamin Franklin and others came along with an open mind. People were skeptical about the idea of men and women flying. The Wright brothers changed that I can go on and on Dr. Wayne Dyer said, no one knows enough to be a pessimist. That's a great way to look at it. If you know a child, encourage them to dream and think of all the possibilities.
Speaker 1 00:03:26 I was inspiring children at a school, not too long ago. When I asked the boy what he wanted to be, when he got older, he said, when I grow up, I want to be a professional skateboarder. I said, that's so cool. I went further with the questioning. When you're on your board, do you ever fall off? He laughed all of the time. And then I asked, so when you fall off, do you just lay there and wait for someone to come get you? He said, no, I get up. I dust myself off. I get back on my skateboard and I keep going. And that boy was so wise. Whenever I'm in front of children, I always go in with the mindset that I can learn just as much from them as they can learn from me. It's so true to me. This boy knew the secret to an incredible life. You are going to fall off your skateboard. Things are going to happen that will hurt, but to move on with your life, you have to get up and keep going. I call this overcoming the skateboard. And that's just the part of the chapter.
Speaker 2 00:04:24 Yeah. I'm glad you brought up overcoming the skateboard. I was going to raise it. If you didn't, it's a repetitive theme and idea that, uh, uh, comes back again again in the book and it, and it sticks with you. I can attest to that. Um, I underlined a line that you read when I was reading the book and preparing for our conversation. I was inspiring children at a school. And I thought to myself, this is someone who practices what he preaches, who incorporates exactly what he's saying. That takes a lot of confidence to begin a sentence saying I was inspiring children. Uh, how did Victor come to this place in his life, um, where he could make a statement like that and feel real good about it and confident about it. Uh, who a young man who began as a pre-teen Elvis impersonator, uh, really transformed himself into a, you know, a one man curriculum. Uh, it's amazing. How did this happen, Victor?
Speaker 1 00:05:22 Thank you. Um, that's a great question. So if we could go back in time a little bit, um, I moved from Chicago, Illinois to a suburb on the very day. Elvis Presley passed away August 16th, 1977. I was five years old, I believe at the time. And my brother. Um, who's an amazing man, uh, was a really big Elvis fan. I'm the youngest of five kids. So he's eight years older. So he was about 13, 14, very big Elvis fan. Um, everyone was shocked as you know, when Elvis passed away, but my father, he bought a jukebox and in the jukebox, my brother filled it with Elvis Presley music. And I can't tell you why it happened or how it happened. It was just kind of something that was meant to be, I got up one day and I started singing to Elvis's songs and, uh, long story short with that, I just wouldn't stop doing it.
Speaker 1 00:06:13 I loved performing. I, it just kinda kind of clicked, you know, I was rough around the edges, but my, my father knew this tribute to Elvis' band in Chicago and they were looking for a little Elvis. And so I auditioned, I wasn't very good, but I think the key there is that at the, at that moment, it didn't really matter. I had the courage, which took me a while to get up and do it. But once I got in front of people and I started performing with this band, it created a confidence in me. And I started performing with this band all throughout the 1980s, traveling to New York, Michigan, Arkansas, while still going to school during the week I was in elementary school. And so that created something and I really believe that was the foundation for what I can say. Now, I go to schools and inspire students, um, to fast forward.
Speaker 1 00:07:00 I got my degree in graphic design from Columbia college. I knew I wanted to, to go into that kind of field. I love art and design music. It's all connected, right? And so I never stopped performing. I just always performed. And so I was working, um, at a design firm when I realized this isn't what I really want to do. I do not want to sit in front of a computer for the rest of my life, just designing. I love it, but it's not. It wasn't that burning desire that Wayne Dyer talks about all the time and all of his lectures and books. There was something that was missing at that moment. So at first, Dave, I thought, well, maybe it's the job. Maybe it's the, I was in a basement of someone's house. And I'm thinking, well, maybe it's the environment. Maybe it's because the basement's not finished.
Speaker 1 00:07:45 And maybe I need to go to where there's a lot of people. So I went to a different company to work as in graphic design. And I realized it wasn't the design. It wasn't the location. It wasn't the environment. It was me. And so that's when it started. I decided to take some time away and just think about what I wanted to do. And then I was thinking maybe I want to be a teacher. So I, I went to a school as an aid in the music department, the art department and the PE department, three things that I, I love to do. Uh, I love to stay active. I liked, you know, I love art and I love music. So I, one day had an idea, you know, as Victor Hugo says, there's nothing more powerful than an idea whose time has come. And I went up to the principal and I said, listen, I've been performing since I was eight.
Speaker 1 00:08:27 I would love to put on a concert for these kids. Is that okay? And he's like, yeah, sure. So this is where my life changed the week before I was outside doing my recess duty. And I guess word got around that I was going to be performing. Mr. Pacini is performing for us a little boy with down syndrome by the name of Matt came up to me and he said, very politely, Hey, Mr. Pacini I hear you're singing on Friday. Is that true? I said, yeah, I am. He's like, could I sing with you? I said, Matt. Yeah. I mean, that, that takes courage. And I said, what do you want to do? So we worked up a song as you know, it's called Johnny B Goode by Chuck Berry. Well, back then we didn't have the words on my phone. Didn't have a cell phone.
Speaker 1 00:09:09 So I brought the words on a piece of paper. We practice it outside at recess. And sure enough, the day of the performance, I had 300 elementary students. I had never performed in front of kids like that in a school. All of a sudden I introduced Matt. He comes up, he belts out the song, go, go, Johnny, go, go. Right? All the kids give them a standing ovation. And he puts up his hands. Like he just won a gold medal and I can still see it today. And then this is what I teach the kids. I say, you know what? Here's a boy that, you know, you don't see him at that moment with down syndrome. You don't see him was with his, you know, whatever you want to call that. Right. You know, everyone's, you know, disability, whatever that is. You see a boy with courage, you see a boy who has courage that can turn into confidence.
Speaker 1 00:09:52 And it's very powerful. And that's when a teacher came up to me and said, you have something here now, you know, make it educational, make it something, go to schools and help kids. And that's when it happened. I started writing lyrics. I started writing, uh, you know, words to songs, songs, you know, lyrics turned into songs. I had people write music for me, everyone showed up that was supposed to, to help me get to where I was to where I wanted to go. And that's what really launched my career, speaking to students. And really it's, it's looking at Matt because I use them as a great example, you know, the way he presented himself to me that day determined the idea that he was going to get what he wanted in terms of, you know, if he would've come up to me with a negative attitude, I probably would have said no, but because he was so positive with me, that taught me that's that's. And I mean that, like when I'm with kids, I want to learn from them just as much as they're learning from me. And he taught me that it's about having courage. And then that courage turns into confidence and everything moves from there. But this is how it started for me. I just started creating something from one performance at a school.
Speaker 2 00:10:55 That's very inspiring story. I love that story. Um, let's circle back to overcoming the skateboard. And you're very honest in, in your book about times when you've had to overcome the skateboard, uh, in your life with your family, um, can you share some of these things with us and you didn't necessarily, you didn't bury these things, they're part of you and, um, it's, it's very inspirational.
Speaker 1 00:11:21 Yeah. So let me say what you just said. We did bury them at the time. See back in the day, no one talked about anything, like what I'm about to share with you. We buried our heads in the sand and we S this is how I looked at it. We swept everything under the carpet, and I don't think that was abnormal. I think it was very normal. It's what, that's what we did. That's what we were taught to do. Um, a couple of things here. So during the time of me performing with this band, I met a lot of interesting people here. I am eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, going into nightclubs, literally performing in smoke-filled bars. And it's, it's like, who does that? Right. But I have to give credit to my parents. They were very supportive. They were there. I mean, they were, they were always there.
Speaker 1 00:12:01 They never left me with anyone most of the time. Um, but what happened was, you know, you meet a lot of interesting people. And the, the one thing that happened to me when I was eight years old was we became friends with this family. And, um, the, the son was quite a bit older, like eight or nine years older than me. And, um, one day I was allowed to sleep over at his house, which to this day, I still don't really know why my parents allowed me to do that an eight year old sleeping over at a 16, 17 year old house. But I was abused one night, uh, by him. I was sexually abused by him. And, um, I can talk about it because it's something that I think is really important to talk about. But at the moment, at that time, I kept it an unsafe secret as what do we call it and my curriculum and unsafe secret for a very, very long time.
Speaker 1 00:12:48 He threatened me not to talk. And so I believed him and, and you have to understand something. So while I'm dealing with that, I'm going home every day after school, I'm living my life. But I'm also, again, being surrounded by this, you know, it was, it was fun performing, but the environment was not the greatest environment, especially when you have a father who liked to drink a lot. And my father was a very violent alcoholic. Um, again, I always say this. I, I, I loved him very, very much through all of it. I mean, he was, he was a tough dad. Um, even when he wasn't drinking, he was a tough dad and he would hit anyone that got in his way. And I remember here I am, and this is where I think winning within, you know, teaching kids about having dreams and goals really started to, you know, kind of started like, uh, you know, started happening inside of me.
Speaker 1 00:13:34 It started, it started being, uh, born inside of me was there were nights that I would wake up and here I am a boy trying to go to sleep to get up for school. The next day, I'm supposed to be dreaming about being a baseball player. I would wake up to a nightmare and it was a living nightmare. I'll never forget. I would stand up at the top of the steps. And again, I'm the youngest of five kids and I'm looking down and I see my father just, uh, being so violent. And, and again, going after my mom, um, and my beautiful brother there, he was trying to get in the middle of it. And I just love him so much for that. And then my sister is trying to protect me saying, go back into the bedroom, you know, but I always, you know, I was an eight year old.
Speaker 1 00:14:10 I, I wanted to see what was going on. And so that moment was like many moments in my childhood waking up to just a violent man. And so I'm dealing with all that. So overcome the skateboard is really about teaching kids and this boy, I mean, this was not planned. He just said it one day at a presentation. He taught me the secret to life. And that is, we're all going to fall down sometimes. And it's not necessarily physically, obviously it's emotionally, we're gonna fall down. And the question is, what are you going to do about it? Are you going to stay there or are you going to, you know, have the courage to say, you know what, I don't know what to do, but I know I can't live like this anymore. So that's what I try to teach kids through a lot of my curriculum. And a lot of my thank
Speaker 2 00:14:52 You for sharing that it's so important to agri. Um, you, you strike me as very, uh, I, I'm not a psychiatrist or anything, but emotionally intelligent, empathetic, and that sort of thing. When you're standing up in front of kids, Victor, or even performing in a club and singing something tells me that you can read your audience and you can read people out there and the kids, um, what do you see out there, especially when you're dealing with kids? Um, when, you know, for example, maybe you've got some kids who are in trouble, uh, need some help. Um, how does it work? How does be seen and heard work in terms of connecting with kids?
Speaker 1 00:15:31 Yeah. So if I can give a little context of what that is. So I was presenting in schools. It's, it's my, like my 22nd year presenting at schools after that day with Matt is when I started this. And it was like 1999 when I started, it was always about, you know, character building, respect, um, believing in yourself, having competence in yourself. But as, as time went on and then, you know, I was always at middle school, high school sharing my story of abuse, sharing my story of my father, but I had to be very careful because it was taboo to talk about it years ago. And, and they would have to like, you know, kind of agree to some of the things I was going to say before. I said them at the schools because no one wanted to talk about it. So in 2013, uh, in Illinois, where I'm from, uh, a law was passed called Aaron's law.
Speaker 1 00:16:18 And Aaron's law is a law that requires all public schools, pre-K to 12th grade to teach sexual abuse, awareness, and prevention curriculum. And so I just thought about it. I said, you know what? I've been telling my story, but it's been very muted and it's been very simple, but you know, what, if this is a law and it's mandated by the state of Illinois, why not create something? I already know how to connect with kids. I mean, that's really my unique ability. I mean, I can have a group of kindergartners and I can have them in 30 seconds. Right. Just really getting into what I'm talking about. And I can have high school students. It's just something that I've always been really good at. Um, again, reading my audience, I wouldn't talk to kindergarteners the way I would talk to high schoolers. Right. You have to know how to do that.
Speaker 1 00:17:03 So since 2013, the law Erin's law has been passed and now 37 States and, um, Minnesota is one of them and it's, it's all over, you know, it's, it's, it's amazing. It's great. So I created this curriculum and the title of it is be seen and heard because my father used to say, Victor, you should be seen and not heard. And it was always when I maybe wanted to voice my opinion, you know, kids didn't have an opinion back then. Kids didn't say what was on their mind. And I was never really asked what I was feeling about things. So that was another reason why I kept it from everybody in my life and my family. I mean, not only am I dealing with that with the father who's drinking, but I wouldn't even dare bring it up because I was so scared. And so, so ashamed of what happened to me.
Speaker 1 00:17:47 So there were a lot of things going on at that. So be seen and heard was created in 2014. And it's a curriculum that it's, it's very, it's designed specifically for specific grades all the way up. pre-K all the way up to 12th grade. And it's really about getting kids to have a voice, getting kids, to give them permission, to not be silent. And it doesn't have to be abuse. It could be anything that's hurting them. I tell them, I said, listen, I hope none of you are connecting to my story today, but at the end of the day, whatever, you're keeping locked up inside, whatever's hurting you. Whatever's keeping you from maybe being here physically with me. And you're, you're here with me, but emotionally you're not you're somewhere else. We call that an unsafe secret if you're not talking about it. And I'm very, I feel very strong about that because as soon as I had the courage to speak up at 19, my life changed.
Speaker 1 00:18:36 I mean, that's when I started creating because as soon as I opened it up, the flood Gates opened, I went to college, all my work stemmed around my abuse and my father. And, you know, my grades were connected to that because I worked really hard. I got straight A's because I was so passionate about what I was doing. So to read your audience is really to be in front of them, knowing that what I'm presenting to them is appropriate. For example, I would never bring up the term sexual abuse to a kindergarten or a first or second grade or third grade or fourth grader for, for that matter. It's not appropriate. They don't know what that is. It's too much of a term. They don't even know. It's just, doesn't make sense. Starting in fifth grade and up, yeah. We start using it and calling it what it is, sexual abuse.
Speaker 1 00:19:15 But for younger kids, we talk about safe touches and unsafe touches. So when I'm doing all of this with my, with the kids in my audience, I'm very animated. It's very high energy because you're teaching a very difficult topic. You don't want them to leave, not wanting to talk. You want them to leave, wanting to talk, even if it's, even if they're not connecting, but even if they're just, I'm inquisitive, I want to know a little bit more about this. That's really the goal behind it. And so it's about reading them. It's about knowing that, you know, I can look at an audience now. I may not know them personally, but if by their body language, I can tell if, if their heads are drooped, there's something going on. And that's, that's really important. And that's why it's important. When we do this, we have counselors with us, social workers, so they can see the red flags and then they can start working on that. But I know that's a long answer to your question, but that's basically what it is.
Speaker 2 00:20:03 It's a great answer. Thank you. I'm to, it's a good time to remind our listeners. We're speaking with Victor, Pacini P a C I N. I look him up online. He has a fantastic website. You will see exactly what he's been describing, and he's really great at what he does. The book is winning within. And if you know a teacher, and if you love a teacher, get our podcast of this episode and send it to him or her and have, uh, have them listen to it. Um, Victor, a little change of pace here. Um, do you use a quote from the Buddha a couple of times in your book, you, you cite it. I'd like you to, uh, talk about that for us. If you would, please, when someone offers you a gift, the Buddha says, and you refuse to accept it, except that gift to whom it belong. What do you want us to learn from that?
Speaker 1 00:20:52 Yeah, it's something I can reread my book and read and say, you know, what, what can I learn from that today? I mean, I've written, I wrote this book many years ago and it's, it's like, what a gift to me. Thank you for giving that to me. It's, it's, it's really about, you know, when someone gives you a gift of their, uh, you know, of their hatred or of they're being rude to you and, and you're not willing to accept it, right? And you say, you know what? You know, I'm going to put a boundary up and I'm telling you right now, Dave, I am working on this every day in my life. So I, I can say, I am not a master at this at all. I just love the quote and I'm working on it. So when someone offers you a gift of their, of their, maybe, you know, their prejudice, their, their hatred, whatever it is, and, and you refuse to accept it, right? You don't buy into it. You don't react to it. You respond to it then to whom does the gift belong. If you don't accept it, it goes right back to the person who gave it. And it's, it's really, it's a really powerful little tool.
Speaker 2 00:21:51 It is. It is, uh, the book is loaded with powerful quotes. Um, thank you. I hate to say this, but we're, we're nearing the end of our time. My goodness. I obviously could talk about things like this with you for a long time. Um, what kind of pushback do you get? If you get any pushback from parents or school officials is it's a hard thing to sell. Maybe it's easier now once allows a last pass, but
Speaker 1 00:22:17 Yeah, there's still resistance, right? Cause it's taboo. Um, some parents will say, why are like, I'll do parent nights before we do the actual presentations with the kids. Hey Victor, why are you even here? Right. We appreciate what you're doing. But we live in a bubble here in our town. And then I go ahead and I do the presentations all week and we've we get seven or eight disclosures of kids. Right? It happens everywhere. Right? Um, some of the pushback is simply the fear of parents, right? I'm a dad of three. So I get it. A father would raise their hand his hand and say, Hey, Victor, I love what you're doing, but I may opt my child out because by law they can opt their child out. Well, why are you thinking of doing it? I'm not here to tell you. You should, or shouldn't it's up to you.
Speaker 1 00:22:53 Well, when my child comes home from school, I don't know how to talk about this. I'm afraid. Right? So it's their fear. So I give them some simple strategies, you know, to keep it simple. And when you go home with your child, there's some little things you can do that it's, it doesn't have to be complicated. And it doesn't have to be scary. Again, this is about just raising the child's awareness of their own body and to say, Hey, simple rule, no one touches your private body parts, unless it is to keep you clean and healthy, that itself can be an ongoing conversation for a week while you're in the bathtub, right? You're giving your child a bath. You keep repeating it. You talk about it. Doctor, mom, and dad, maybe grandma and grandpa. So anyway, there are some very simple ways to teach parents cause they come in with all of this heaviness, right? They're scared. So that's what it comes down to.
Speaker 2 00:23:41 Thank you, Victor. We have been speaking with Victor. Pachino the author of winning within impossible life events, with impossible results and many other books and the creator of the curriculum be seen and heard to empower children. Uh, Victor, it's been a real treat to have you on the show. And, um, I'm going to go on my way here in sandwich and get you back on another time. I love it. Um, thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you so much. All the best. And now this
Speaker 0 00:24:11 <inaudible>, you are listening to cafe I 90.3 FM in Minneapolis and on the
[email protected].
Speaker 3 00:24:30 How are you?
Speaker 0 00:24:31 Uh, I'm doing pretty good. How are you doing?
Speaker 3 00:24:34 I'm good. Thank you. Are uh, are you ready for me to start reading?
Speaker 0 00:24:39 Well, let me introduce you first. This is Chris author of the four winds. Uh, she's a New York times, number one, best selling author of a claim novels like the Nightingale, the great alone and winter garden. And tonight she's going to be reading to us and being interviewed about the four winds you're on.
Speaker 3 00:24:58 Thank you. Uh, hope. Is it quite? I carry an American penny given to me by a man. I came to love. There were times in my journey when it felt as if that penny and the hope it represented were the only things that kept me going. I came West in search of a better life, but my American dream was turned into a nightmare by poverty and hardship and greed. These past few years have been a time of things, lost jobs, homes, food, the land we love turned on us broke us all. Even the stubborn old men who used to talk about the weather and congratulate each other on the seasons bumper wheat crop, a man's got make, I'm sorry, a, man's got to fight out here to make a living. They'd say to each other, a man. It was always about the men. They seem to think it meant nothing to cook and clean and bear children and tend to gardens, but we women have the great Plains work from sunup to sundown, to toiled on wheat farms until we were as dry and baked as the land we love. Sometimes when I close my eyes, I swear I can still taste the dust.
Speaker 0 00:26:10 Thank you. Uh, that was Kristen Hannah reading from the four winds. Uh, why don't you give us a brief non spoiler, uh, synopsis of the story?
Speaker 3 00:26:20 Uh, sure. This is a novel set during the great depression and it focuses on a woman who, um, is a part of a family living on a small farm in the Texas panhandle during the depression when, uh, the dust bowl hits and they have to survive the drought and the dust and all of the difficulties and hardships that, uh, came with that time. And as the, as the situation worsened, since interior rates, she has to decide, you know, whether to stay on her farm and keep fighting, uh, when the odds are so against her or take her children, uh, put them in the car and go West and hope for a better life in California. Um,
Speaker 0 00:27:13 I noticed I was reading the Nightingale too, and I noticed that both books are about the mid 20th century or is that a place you're interested in or,
Speaker 3 00:27:22 Um, you know, um, I guess yes and no. What I'm really interested in at the moment is the idea of bringing lost women's stories to the forefront, uh, tackling, you know, time periods in history that, that feel more predominantly traditionally male and putting women back into the equation and, and telling their stories and showing, you know, throughout history, how important, um, the women's contribution is and how heroic and, and brave we have proven to be in really difficult times
Speaker 0 00:28:07 Is very brave as are her children. In fact, and I am wondering too, what the stories of Elsa and other stories that you relate about women have to say to women today?
Speaker 3 00:28:23 Well, I think it's, you know, it's absolutely true that what is past is prologue. And, you know, we find ourselves in a time right now with the pandemic where the great depression feels, um, you know, more relevant than certainly I ever expected when I began writing it, you know, almost four years ago. And I think the message of, of history and the message of the great depression and the greatest generation is a reminder that, uh, we in America have been through hard times before, really hard times. And we have not only survived, we have thrived. And so I think ultimately, uh, for me, it's about a message of hope and endurance and, uh, and resilience. And hopefully, you know, in reading this novel, the, the reader will become so immersed in this world. And so invested in Elsa. And so, you know, eager to turn the pages that, you know, they can't wait to get to the end of the story to find out what happens, but they will all be also be, I think, uh, educated and inspired along the way. It is
Speaker 0 00:29:42 Very compelling. I just remember not being able to put the book down during the scenes from the dust bowl and the terrible things that happened when they're, uh, stuck in the house with the winds and the dust raging all around them, sitting underneath the, the table is just, uh, a very compelling and evocative thing. I'm curious about, uh, research, I'm a historian, so I I'm interested in research. And I'm wondering, were you able to access any primary sources or did you have to mostly do secondary sources or did you have a librarian who helped you or how did that all work for you?
Speaker 3 00:30:21 You know, I, I, I found some really, um, remarkable sources along the way. One of, uh, the most powerful, I think, um, voices that I found was an author named, uh, a writer named Sonora Bab, who came from the great Plains to California. And she worked in the migrant camps. Um, and her job was to speak to all of the people who came through, looking for work and trying to help them and get them housing and, and find out what their concerns were. And, and she wrote copious notes about every single person that, um, she spoke to. And all of those notes are at the university of Austin, at Texas at the Harry ransom center. And so I was able to sit there for days and just immerse myself. And it was like talking to this woman, you know, who had been there and who had talked, uh, to the very people that I was interested in, in recreating. So that was remarkable. And then in, uh, California, in the San Joaquin Valley, they have in Bakersfield, uh, an event called dust bowl days every October. And it draws people who are, who both lived there and, you know, worked at the camp and, and their children and grandchildren, and they, they come together and sort of try to keep that, that moment alive. And so there was a lot of great information and great people that I was able to talk to there.
Speaker 0 00:32:02 Talk some about the camps. Uh, I know I'm kind of going out of order here, but, uh, uh, the camps were again very compelling and, and, uh, um, well, there's two different questions first. Why don't you describe some of the camps and, and what they were like, and then I'll get to,
Speaker 3 00:32:20 Well, what, what had happened was, you know, a few years before this book takes place, which is, um, you know, the mid thirties, California and the, the agricultural system in California had, had deported a lot of their Mexican workers. And so the farmers found themselves in a position where they didn't have enough people to pick their crops. And so they put out a lot of advertising and a lot of publicity and wrote articles and placed ads in newspapers across the country saying, come to California, there are jobs of plenty everything, you know, this is the land of milk and honey, you'll be happy here. And, you know, obviously this is in the, the center of the great depression. And so many people are out of work. And so, you know, thousands and thousands and thousands came West and as more came, you know, there were fewer and fewer and jobs until there were, you know, a lot of people and no jobs and no money, you know, they didn't have money for housing.
Speaker 3 00:33:29 And so originally they just set up and lived in tents or their cars, or the shacks that they made of, of metal or found wood, anything that they could put together. Um, they live just in a long, you know, ditches in the Valley. And you can see a lot of these photos from Dorothea Lange. She was one of the great documenters of this, uh, this area in this era and her very famous migrant, uh, mother was taken, uh, at the pea fields in, in Nepal mall right there. And so there was just people living in just, you know, terrible squalor and, you know, yet these are proud Americans who, who came West to work and came West for a better life and found things more difficult.
Speaker 0 00:34:25 Yeah. That picture is quite iconic. And I'm sure everybody's seen it. Um, you talked specifically, uh, at times about women's relationships with other women, friends, uh, sisters, mothers, uh, stepmothers in the case of, uh, Rose. And I talk about that,
Speaker 3 00:34:50 You know, this book, um, like Firefly lane, which I, I wrote probably, you know, more than a decade ago, they really do focus on, on women and women's relationships. And, you know, the older I get in my life, the more I understand how absolutely crucial and critical my female friendships are, the way we, um, you know, celebrate, enjoy, and comfort each other in grief and get ourselves and our family, um, through a lot of difficult times. And, you know, one of the things I really wanted to say about this book, which is, I think primarily about, um, motherhood and a woman finding her voice, you know, that's really what it's about, but it was, it was important to me that Elsa find and maintain a really important friend along the way, because she hadn't had one before and learn how much, I guess, a girlfriend can enrich your life and unlock your soul to yourself.
Speaker 0 00:36:07 Um, and, uh, that friend, uh, and the you're speaking, I can't remember her name, the one in California that she met
Speaker 3 00:36:17 Jane Jane,
Speaker 0 00:36:18 That's it? Um, that, that, uh, relationship, uh, was very important. And I was, I wasn't surprised that she got to be friends, but there was so much tension in the camps that I was wondering if they would get to be friends. How did
Speaker 3 00:36:34 You decide that you were wondering if, what
Speaker 0 00:36:36 If they would get to be friends, Elsa and Jane?
Speaker 3 00:36:40 Yeah, I think, you know, um, that relationship, you know, Jean, um, is, like I said, Elsa's first real true female, um, friend, you know, except for her mother-in-law. And I think that she is a big part of what made all of that bearable for Elsa. And one of the things I loved was I was able to show through that relationship, uh, the generosity of these people who had come West to work and, you know, been treated badly and, and, you know, we're living hand to mouth and yet, uh, they cared deeply about each other and helped each other along. And, you know, we're brought together by their faith and their fellowship and their friendship. And so it was, um, it was just important to me that, that Elsa find and maintain a relationship like that in these really dark days,
Speaker 0 00:37:42 Your relationship with your daughter, it's not an easy relationship, although there's clearly a lot of love between you.
Speaker 3 00:37:50 Yeah. You know, that, um, I'm always interested in how readers, you know, uh, except a, uh, difficult adolescent daughter, because I think it depends on, in some regards, whether you were a difficult ed, uh, adolescent daughter, or whether you had one and, and whether you've been through that experience. But I think that, you know, for a lot of people, um, a lot of mother daughter relationships, you know, the, the 13, 14, 12 years are really the worst. And in this particular, you know, situation when the farm is floundering and Elsa is failing and her marriage is failing. And her daughter just, you know, looks at her mother as, as a failure, as someone who is unable to right the ship of their lives on any level. And she judges her harshly for that. And of course, um, you know, as, as adolescents, we don't, we don't see the truth of our parents. And so, you know, part of Laredo, the character's journey in this novel is to, to actually see her mother and, uh, to not just learn, to admire and respect her, but to understand that this woman that she has discounted for so long has become a warrior. And, you know, by the end of the book has the strength and the, um, the grit, I guess, to not only stand up for what she thinks is right for her family and her children, but for other people who are afraid to speak out as well.
Speaker 0 00:39:40 Uh, I'm wondering if you would talk some to about Tony and Rose and their love for Elsa and how, uh, they were so kind and loving to her and they wouldn't have had to be.
Speaker 3 00:39:55 Yeah. And I don't think they started out quite as welcoming. Um, but I think, you know, Elsa, uh, that was the first, I think, great gift of her life. You know, she had lived a very difficult, um, youth and young womanhood and in, you know, her, her marriage to rave and her becoming a Martin Nelly, even though it started off Rocky, it became sort of the family that she had always wanted. And I think that the relationship, first of all, the, the love affair as quiet as it is between Tony and Rose was so compelling to me, it was this, this reflection of, you know, the kind of people who make a commitment to each other and make a commitment to the land and, and stick with that commitment, you know, for the whole of their lives. And, and then they accepted, you know, Elsa who was so different from them. And Elsa really had to work to be accepted there. She had to learn, you know, how to be a farmer and how to, you know, be a homemaker and all these skills that she didn't have. But ultimately I think it was Rose embracing her and Rose, loving Elsa, which gave Elsa the steel that, you know, she needed in her spine to save her own children,
Speaker 0 00:41:27 Tony and Rose decide to stay in the dust bowl and not leave for a California. Um, and I'm curious how you feel the differences between the people who stayed and the people who left, you know, how, how were they thinking, what was the thought? I know Tony and, and Rose just loved their land and they couldn't bear to leave it. Um, and I'm wondering,
Speaker 3 00:41:52 You know, I, that was one of the most fascinating, um, sort of parts of my research was, you know, I'm reading about this, this terrible weather and this hardship and these dust storms and black Sunday and, and all of the difficulty, um, that the farmers of the great Plains were facing and the great majority of them stayed. And, you know, they stayed for the whole four years and just kept enduring and kept working their land and going to church and believing in a better tomorrow. And ultimately, you know, uh, that tomorrow came, ultimately they did survive. Ultimately the rain did fall again, the crops did grow again, and they maintained their home and, and their, I think their vision of themselves as farmers on the great Plains. And so to me, again, that just speaks to, you know, the powerful endurance and faith and hope of, of what we call the greatest generation,
Speaker 0 00:43:07 How much strength, both from the people who say at an Elsa and as representative of the people who moved or left for California. Um, talk about the strength of the people who left.
Speaker 3 00:43:20 Well, you know what I mean, that, that's the, that's the fascinating thing about America? You know, um, we, we sort of celebrate all of these choices. You know, we celebrate the people who stayed and stuck it out. We celebrate the people who had the gumption and the courage, you know, to, um, to strike out into the unknown. I mean, I can't imagine, you know, putting my kids in a jalopy with no money and a little bit of gas and just heading West with no job skills and, you know, hoping that I would do well and hoping that I would do better. Um, but I can tell you that for me personally, because I come from an adventure, adventure we're family, I come from the people who picked up stakes and moved, you know, all the time. I'm always looking for the next best thing. I, I know, you know, for a fact I would have been one of the people who picked up and left and, and looked for something better. And I think, you know, that's partially why I so romanticize in my mind to people who stayed,
Speaker 0 00:44:36 There are many similarities between the dust bowl migration period, and today's, uh, prejudice against Mexican workers and migrant workers and, uh, both legal and illegal. Um, could you kind of compare and contrast the time of the dust bowl and today?
Speaker 3 00:44:57 Well, you know, I mean, that was one of, uh, one of the reasons I wrote the book, one of the, the things that fascinated me was, you know, when I began this book, we were engaged and are currently engaged in, um, a big debate about immigration. And whenever I'm sort of, you know, interested in looking around at what's going on today, I'm always kind of drawn to when have we done this before? When have we been here before? What did it look like? And, and what can we learn from it? And I think that, you know, ultimately the message is like, the message always is that we need to treat people as we want to be treated. And that, that America is a land of immigrants. That's, you know, who we are,
Speaker 0 00:45:53 <inaudible>, uh, on another topic Elsa loves to read. And, uh, I have a couple of questions about this besides the age of innocence. What other books do you think influenced her in your mind?
Speaker 3 00:46:06 Well, you know, I was speaking to someone the other day and, and she said, you know, how do you think that Elsa had this strength, uh, to even make the red dress and leave her home and defy her parents, which is sort of the beginning of her journey. And, and how did she have a sense of self at all when her parents, um, treated her? So shabbily, and the answer to me was very much that the fictional world was Elsa was as real to Elsa as you know, her physical world. And so she read these books like Jane Eyre and weathering Heights and age of innocence, and, uh, you know, Henry James, she read these books about women who, who dared in whatever way to defy the system and to stand up for themselves. And in, in reading those books, she was inspired to take a very small, um, step, you know, on her own journey. And I think, you know, as you look through the book, you see that even, you know, onto Loretta, this is a book that, that reveres books and librarians and, and, and reading in general.
Speaker 0 00:47:30 Absolutely. I was going to ask what books influenced you, what books influenced you as a younger, as a writer and a writer and so on?
Speaker 3 00:47:42 Well, you know, um, she was reading actually one of the, the very first super, um, influential books for me was the wizard of Oz. Um, my grandmother gave that to me when I was about 10 years old. And, um, and I was thinking about that book a lot and what it would, what it said to me and, you know, in Seattle is not the same thing. It would say to a 13 year old on the great Plains during the dust bowl. And, um, let's see, I was hugely influenced and, um, by Lord of the rings and dune, I always loved those big Epic world-building novels.
Speaker 0 00:48:27 Uh, the, uh, when ant gets his library card, it's very moving to me, partly because my mother was a librarian, but also it's very moving that he gets this library card. And I'm wondering, how did you feel when you got your first library card?
Speaker 3 00:48:42 Oh, I mean, I still remember the librarian, you know, I still remember my mother taking me down, holding my hand, you know, saying, okay, you're old enough. Now this is your responsibility. You get to pick your books, you read what you want, you return them. And it, it was, and it remains, you know, the opening of the world to a child. It's the, this is how we see worlds beyond our own and begin to imagine our place in them. And, uh, so yeah, there, I would, there is that scene where, you know, the, the library card is a gift and I thought, boy, it doesn't matter whether you're rich or poor. This is, this is the gift to give a child
Speaker 0 00:49:29 It's magical. You know what? I have so many more questions, but we are running out of time. So, uh, I want to thank you for sharing your, uh, speaking with us and the interview. And, uh, we had been speaking with Kristin Hannah, uh, author of the four winds.
