Speaker 0 00:00:00 You are listening to right on radio on cafe AI, 90.3 FM and streaming live on the
[email protected]. I'm Liz olds tonight on right on radio. David FEDEC talks with Jessica Winnie the author of everything. I am a collection of poems, bursts, meditation, and inspiration. Jessica is a teacher, entrepreneur, activists, and writer, living in Minneapolis who has also traveled and lived around the world. Everything I am fused as her persona personal stories with events that affect us all offering a powerful, collaborative reading experience
Speaker 1 00:00:41 And I'm Josh Webber. And the last part of the hour, Liz old's talks with Patrick Hicks, the author of the acclaimed novel, the commandment of Louvre blues, Bluebird sec, as well as several other novels, his poetry and essays have appeared in many of the most important literary journals, North America, as well as heard on NPR and PBS news hour, he has received fellowships from the Bush arts foundation, the national endowment for the humanities and the loft literary center in Minneapolis. He is a writer in residence of Augustana university and a faculty member of the N F a program at Sierra Nevada university. He lives in South Dakota with his wife and son, all of this and more stay tuned to write on radio and
Speaker 2 00:01:28 Josh, thank you. Hi Jessica. Hello. Welcome to the show. Welcome to right on radio. Thank you. Excited to be here. Well, we're excited to have you. We love our Minneapolis writers and especially our Minneapolis poets, and it's especially nice to meet you because, uh, we've met via email, um, for other reasons, which we will discuss later, but here, we're here to talk about, uh, your beautiful poetry. And before we get a reading from you to kick things off and give people a sense for your work, um, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and, um, how you came to poetry. I believe this is your second collection, is that right? That is correct. Um, I started writing when I was younger. My father gave me a space to be safe and also, um, opportunity. It was kind of the way that we bridged our relationship during the time.
Speaker 2 00:02:21 And so poetry has always been a, um, not only a place of expression, but also a place of healing for me. And, um, as well as, um, I'm a teacher as well. And so it's been great to be able to give my passion, um, and gift to my students as well. We speak about healing and teaching and, uh, uh, I feel like we should address what happened today before we go on. Um, and I don't even know what to say about that other than, uh, uh, uh, a lot of, a lot of feelings, a lot of emotions, uh, some relief. Um, yes. Um, for me, it's definitely been, uh, a memorable, a memorable moment in history. Um, a first step in holding police accountable and also, um, for me, it doesn't take away the trauma of the past year or the past years or the past decades. Um, and so, um, that is, uh, that's where I'm at and, and I'm writing and I'm sharing and I am, you know, connecting with people that I wouldn't have otherwise. And so I think that's valuable too.
Speaker 3 00:03:33 I, I imagined you today as I was preparing for this actually sitting down and writing about today and I've met, I'm sure that's happened already. And, or maybe it will because I get the sense from reading your book that, um, if you're feeling it, you're writing it, um, because there's Jessica and every page of this book, I can, I just get a sense for that. Um, so, uh, Jessica, let's give people a sense of your work and, uh, is there a particular poem you'd like to read for us to get things started?
Speaker 2 00:03:59 Um, I was gonna read the first poem and my first book that I wrote when I was 12, uh, it's called peace of mind. And I'm always in all of this because this was in 1988. And what, um, why would a child have this to say it's called peace of mind. Great. The day will come when I can sit down, rest my feet and let my soul take a breath. The world will stand still and the time will stop ticking. All I dream to get accomplished will be done and I'll have time to give my mind a piece of itself. Yeah. Yeah. Um, what
Speaker 3 00:04:51 Made you, what made you pick that poem up?
Speaker 2 00:04:53 Um, just because that's where it started. That's where my first that I kept all of my work since I was younger. And my first book is called the collection. Life's rhythms rolled over times and that's actually the first poem in the book. So I thought it was fitting to start with that since that's kind of where everything began.
Speaker 3 00:05:13 I love it. I love it. Uh, and we gave a sense for this Jessica in the intro I tried to anyway, uh, that that's your book, everything I am, uh, it's a beautiful book in the sense that there's artwork in it. And, um, of course there's lots of poetry. There's artwork. There's meditation's, I guess I would call them. Um, and it almost feels like lyrics in here. Some of these poems feel like lyrics to me. I almost imagined you singing them. Uh, that's how they read to me. Um, so, uh,
Speaker 2 00:05:45 I can speak to the, uh, the artwork is from one of my former students. His name is <inaudible>. Um, there are three artists features featured in the book, but his work shows up the most. And, um, I had him as a sixth grader years ago. He graduated last year. And so we have kept in touch over the years, and that was his passion is art. And so that was one of the ways that I could get him to get his math work done, or get him to sit down and read. It was like, okay, draw. And you like, get this done and then you can draw. And so we still, um, I texted with him last week. It's one of the reasons that I teach those connections, um, to young people, um, as they grow up and still, uh, you know, still have that connection. My seventh grade teacher did the editing of the book. Her name is Flory summers, and, uh, we still keep in touch too. So it has been a spiral of, um, beautiful interactions and relationships that have brought me to this space. So I'm blessed for that.
Speaker 3 00:06:48 Yeah. And, uh, what, what inspired you to put this book together like that with, um, artwork? Did you do it in your first collection also?
Speaker 2 00:06:56 So the first collection has this photographs. I think, um, art is not present enough in a lot of things. And so I wanted it to be interactive for the reader. As you know, there's also after each section, um, space for you to write or draw, however, the piece moves you. I wanted people to, um, kind of have it as a journal in a sense. And, um, I, I that's cool because some of the poetry that he drew too, I said, you know, here's my thoughts. And then others, I said, here's the poem. And you create, and whatever comes from your inspiration, from the words, then that's what it is. And so, and then my nephew as well, I killed LME and he also did the graphic work for the cover. And so as much as it is about my poetry, it is also about, um, just bringing a group of people together that I know and love and support.
Speaker 3 00:07:52 It feels like that it really reads like that. Um, I would say from my reading of it, that love is a powerful theme throughout this book. And in many of these poems, whether it's physical love, emotional love, universal love, body, heart, and mind, there's love on every page. Am I reading that right?
Speaker 2 00:08:12 You are there, there, I write a lot about love the ups and downs, the title. Um, definitely everything I am. I want it to encompass my, um, the ugly sides of my life, um, relationships, um, life, death, you know, every everything that I am that has brought me to this point where I'm at today of that book, um, covers 10 years of poetry. And so even though as we edited it and took stuff out, it's still it's it's long. Um, but there were things in there that I felt that, um, you know, poems are spaces that I had been mentally or places that I had been physically that I felt needed, um, to be there and needed to be recorded. And, um, yeah, a lot of, uh, being vulnerable and hoping that when people read, they're able to, um, hold, grab, hold of something that they find in common or, uh, take a lesson away from something that I wrote. And so I feel like that is the gift and writing as well. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:09:17 Yeah. And I think that's a beautiful gift that many poets given and these poems certainly do that, that vulnerable vulnerability that you described that allows the reader to, uh, embrace that those same feelings within themselves.
Speaker 2 00:09:30 I have one called love lines. Sure. It says my warmth when I'm cold. My smile, when I am glad like a forehead kiss, when I need compassion, my umbrella in the rain, like a roof, when I need shelter, my exchange, my hand in his Palm, if my love line was damaged along the way on this journey, surely his healing embrace extended it for a lifetime. My poem in his hands.
Speaker 3 00:10:04 I love that. Thank you. And I'm glad you read this poem because you like to, I was going to say play with words, but that's not serious. You know, my hand is in his poem and then you finished with my plum and is in his hand you do this throughout your poems. Uh, you're very careful about the words you choose. Obviously you're a poet, uh, but you like to, um, remind us that there are refrains in here. Um, themes circle backwards in the poems. Uh, it's just a lovely example of that.
Speaker 2 00:10:37 I give all credit again, back to my, uh, Flory summers. My dad taught me the passion of writing and Flori taught me, uh, the books that she had us read imagery, um, just, um, taught me how to use literature in the way that was comfortable for me, uh, vocabulary, like twisting words around synonyms, everything disappear. Yeah. So I thank her often.
Speaker 3 00:11:04 That's wonderful. Uh, and, and there's rhymes sometimes in these poems and surprising rhymes. It's not rhymes where you expect them to land necessarily like at the end of a stanza, uh, but within the same line. Uh, and I know it's intentional and that's when I start thinking if it started feeling like lyrics to me. Um, and, uh, do you imagine some of these lyrics, you hear music when
Speaker 2 00:11:30 I do, and sometimes I write to instrumentals? Um, yep. I often, uh, I often write to instrumentals. Um, it could be classical, jazz, whatever, um, different beats. It could be rap music. I would just take away the rap music and listen to the beats in the back. So definitely that has happened on,
Speaker 3 00:11:54 Yeah. Well, I mentioned your singing because I know that you're a singer because you shared something very special with me, um, during an email correspondence, um, of a performance of one of your poems and, um, uh, you've agreed to, uh, perform that for us. This is a very special moment for right on radio. We usually don't get poets singing their work and, uh, it's going to be very special. I was very moved by it. Uh, but before we do, um, have that from you, um, tell us about your performance of your poetry had, you know, pre COVID, um, have you performed it, have you gone to readings, um, yourself?
Speaker 2 00:12:34 Yeah. So there are two events, one hosted by tangible thoughts and another hosted by a group called Mac house that, uh, create safe black spaces for artists. And so in the past year I've been able to work with them and, um, I have never been a performing poet. It was never something. Um, I was like concerned like, Oh, I'm a writer I don't perform. And so being in those spaces and being, uh, courageous enough to share your work, or was it definitely a blessing? And so over the past, probably two years I have performed, um, a lot. Um, I've been able to perform alongside some of who I would say are, uh, Minneapolis's spoken word artists, um, and teachers and historians in spoken word from Minneapolis. So that's been a blessing and also, uh, the stage is welcoming and also vulnerable again. So it has a, so we miss it, but we, uh, black table arts over in South Minneapolis, they have an event called sip and chai or Thai and Hill. I believe it's called China and chill. And so that is a monthly gathering as well, and a poet show up or people who love, uh, poetry, um, who just write just for their own self show up and share space together. So, wow.
Speaker 3 00:14:03 Nice, nice. I'll remind our listeners that this episode will be on our website, right on radio. Do a Google search or look on cafe. Uh, if you want to hear a, Jessica mentioned those names again, I was writing them down myself. I'm going to have to listen to it again to catch them. Um, and then we also have a podcast, so this will be on our podcast forever and ever. So, um, please tell your friends. So, um, Jessica set us up for what you're about to do here.
Speaker 2 00:14:31 So, uh, this Palm, uh, this piece, I guess it's called the movement. It has changed over time. I wrote it maybe two years ago and, uh, two or three years ago, it is definitely one of the pieces that end the book that happens in the later part of the decade that it covers. Um, so I'll just go with it.
Speaker 4 00:15:00 <inaudible> the, the is why we need the bills piled. So Dawn, hi me. Uh, uh, <inaudible> D reparations my bed to grab your <inaudible>
Speaker 2 00:16:04 It's revolution.
Speaker 4 00:16:07 Uh,
Speaker 2 00:16:12 The movements requires you to be uncomfortable, to take up space, to gather and gather ad right on radio and raise your hand to ask questions. Why, why do unarmed? Hadn't cuffed black men leave crime scenes dead yet armed white mass shooters, leave crime scenes alive. Why the movement requires you to spend within your community to transform your patterns and live without Starbucks, home Depot, Walmart, the movement requires you to recycle dead presidents and to the hands, the shades of yours to allow difference until your journey to take up space on the sidewalk. The movement requires you to adapt to situations, to amend your life for the revolution to support black businesses, Omari brows, lip esteem, Sammy's deli and eatery, Minnesota black box Selby, spirits and wine Willard's bar Palmer's bar. The movement requires you to raise your fist for injustice to say their names. Sandra bland, I Tatiana Jefferson Korryn Gaines to speak their names. Eric Gardner Trayvon Martin Tamir, rice, to say their names. Ty CEL, Nelson Thurman Blevins, Jr. Philando Castille, George Floyd. We are tired. We are exhausted of adding names to this list. Dante writes the movements requires you to raise your fist of all injustice, to exercise your 15th amendments, to be noticed black excellence, to take notice of your black excellence, to sprinkle your black boy joy and blow your black girl magic everywhere you go, the movement requires you. The movement requires us.
Speaker 4 00:19:19 You, uh, have, uh, C
Speaker 3 00:19:40 Wow. Jessica. No, one's going to believe that you just happened to be on the show tonight. We'd planned this months ago, but what, by whatever magic you appeared tonight, though, we are sure blessed for it. That was really something. Thank you. Uh,
Speaker 2 00:19:58 That it comes from a space of heartache. It comes from a space of, uh, resilience. It comes from a place of pressing on and thinking about what we need to do collectively and how we can, uh, manifest and continue to transform, uh, our societies, our communities, our lives, and be about action.
Speaker 3 00:20:32 Well said, anyone who doesn't think that poetry, art, music, performance, uh, don't matter, and can't, can't make a difference. Uh, they need to, they need to listen to what just happened here, Jessica, that was beautiful. Uh, uh, I'm going to take that, uh, opportunity because you referenced black business and some particular businesses, and I love Sammy's by the way. So thanks for that. Shout out to them. I'm sure they'd be too. Um, but I have a, an article you wrote for the Minnesota spokesman recorder reporter. Yes. Um, which I subscribed to, but, uh, which you wrote and you began quoting this poem, and then you describe something that you're involved with, which has Minnesota black box, which is how we came to know each other. Um, so, uh, if you don't mind turning away from your beautiful work for a moment and tell us about your other beautiful work.
Speaker 2 00:21:29 Yes. So, uh, Minnesota black box was started in may of 2020, and we are a collective of, um, business owners, community members, strangers, and, uh, we are dedicated to, um, promoting and financially supporting Minnesota black businesses. So we curate a monthly box featuring five to seven businesses a month. And, um, our website is www.minnesotablackbox.com. Today, we have been able to give a platform for over 125 local businesses and about seven businesses nationwide. Wow. And so, uh, it's exciting. It has been a, Oh, it hasn't been a roller coaster. It has, it has been, um, it has been exciting. I'll say I'm thankful for my children, my friends, the volunteers, the people I have met and connected with along the way have been, uh, very, uh, inspirational outside of the work that it takes. Um, so yeah, it's, um, I, I don't know if you can see, well, you can see in back of me, what once was the blue wrong, which is the space to read and seeing and relax and, and just debrief from the day has turned half of it into, um, I workspace. Um, it is, uh, yeah, well, it's denied it though.
Speaker 3 00:23:06 It it's amazing. Uh, th the, the businesses you feature are just fantastic. Um, some of them become regular customers of mine. Um, I encourage everyone to check it out and then black box.com, as you said. Um, it's, it's really fantastic.
Speaker 2 00:23:23 Thank you. It's been, um, or where here we are devoted and committed to, um, continue to think about generational wealth, to think about the sustainability of these businesses, and also to create a safe space for business owners, to network with each other, bounce ideas off each other, um, give criticism to each other, and it has been, um, I'm thankful. I'm just the vessel. I know that, um, the work that we are doing is important. My grandparents taught us about service. They were missionaries and members of the Hennepin Methodist church over uptown ish area for over 50 years. And so they always instilled the value in us of service and how do you continue to serve others? So that is, uh, that kind of centers what we do.
Speaker 3 00:24:19 Yeah. Yeah. It's such a great idea. We could talk about that for a long time.
Speaker 2 00:24:30 So my, my teacher Florey, her sister passed away today, had been in hospice. And so I wanted to read something for her perfect Scott angel kisses. At times I sit in the dark so I can see the shadows bounce as the blackness whisper secrets. I listen to the stories, connecting myself to the other side, fearless of the movements that beckoned me to exhale, realizing you are always with me. And so I am no longer afraid. And I love you Florey.
Speaker 3 00:25:17 That was beautiful. Sweet. I'm glad you, I'm glad you did. Um, had the opportunity to do that. Um, they're going to give me the two minute warning here pretty quick. So I'm glad you gave me another reading. Um, uh, so you've been writing poems for 10 years. You talked about changing, there's a poem, I believe. See I'm changing in here somewhere. Um, how, how, how was writing poetry? Uh, there is where there's our two minute warning. How, how has, how has writing poetry changed you before we,
Speaker 2 00:25:53 I would say that writing poetry has changed me because it has pushed me to accept who I am. And, um, although we strive for perfection, we're going to make mistakes along the way. And if you can look in the mirror mirror and be true to who you are and be true to yourself, all of you, I feel like you can navigate life a little bit easier, um, because you cannot give to the world until you give to yourself first. And that takes, um, it's not something I'm 44 is not something that I, I know it's a continuous battle. Um, when you think about mental health, when you think about physical health, um, all of those things that can Gus, how do you stay centered, um, with who you are, how you are raised, the traditions and family values that you were brought up in, um, being open to other ideas and suggestions yet still remaining, uh, in your true food, true to you.
Speaker 2 00:27:01 And so, uh, that has, I would say that has, that's how poetry has changed me. It has allowed me to manifest things within my mind that I didn't know existed. It has allowed me to reach, uh, spaces that I didn't want to go to, uh, because of, uh, trauma because of a fear of who will accept this part of me. And so when, when I could write about it, I could get it out and then I could share it and then I could heal and in hopes to heal someone else through my journey and the places that I have, uh, the places that I have been that always that were good and bad, you know? Yeah. Well, lucky for us that you have done that Jessica and I, and everyone who's listening will realize, and from the poetry they've heard, uh, that everything I am really is everything in here.
Speaker 2 00:27:55 It's a lot in there, and you're just curious. It's a lot to uncover and, uh, uh, people should take note everything. I am a collection of poetry by Jessica Winnie, w I N N I E what a treat, what a pleasure. Please tell her all your friends, ladies and gentlemen, uh, what you experienced this evening and, uh, get on the website, listen to it, get on our podcast and, uh, send it around. Uh, it's been a pleasure to finally meet you and I look forward to seeing you again. Wonderful. I appreciate you. Okay. Thank you. Bye. Have a good evening. And now this,
Speaker 5 00:28:38 Yes, yes. I'm here. I'm here tonight with Patrick Hicks, author of shatter of Dora, as well as many other books. I want to start with reading, but before we do that, when I could give us a little background about the book and the reading. Oh, sure thing. Um, yeah, in the shadow of the door, in the shadow of Dora, it's about the real life connections between the Holocaust and the Apollo program. And it required many years of, of research. And, uh, the book was published several months ago. Um, and I'm really pleased that it's finding an audience in spite of the pandemic. Um, and the discussions in particular that I've been having on zoom with, with audiences about these two really important events of the 20th century has been really intellectually nourishing.
Speaker 5 00:29:28 Would you like me to do a reading now, if you would do the reading, that would be great. Sure thing. Um, I'm going to read this only two pages, but it gives you sort of a flavor of, of, um, what the writing style is like I suppose. But, um, the novel takes place in a real life concentration camp, a secret underground concentration camp, where they build rockets. Um, and at the time it was the world's largest underground factory. And I know that sounds like science fiction, but the V2 rocket, um, was used by the Nazis at the end of the war. And it was fired at London and Paris and Brussels. And this highest of high technology was being built by enslaved people, Jews, and, um, French and Soviet prisoners of war in this secret unknown concentration camp, which even today, I'm not sure people are very familiar with.
Speaker 5 00:30:13 And that's largely because of what was found there. And then as see scientists that built the V2 rocket, uh, the United States, we made a really foul Steven bargain. We brought them to the United States and we said, you know, build us the best rockets, the best jet planes. And, um, that's an aerospace and we won't charge you with, um, crimes against humanity. So that's where the intersection between the Holocaust and to the Apollo program come about. Very happy to talk a bit more about that, but this particular two pages that I've chosen, it comes from a chapter called the vengeance weapon, which, um, sort of explains what the V2 was. The world's first long range, rocket weighed almost 28,000 pounds. And it was so technologically advanced that Nazi Germany became the first country to put an object made by human hands, into space. The Karman line marks the boundary between our world and the story black that lies beyond thus, at least according to this measure, space begins 100 kilometers above sea level, which is roughly 62 miles straight up during one particular test in the summer of 1944, launching from an Island on the Baltic coast called Garvey's fall the oil, the V2 sword past the Karman line by almost 50 miles, the Nazis, however weren't interested in sending setting altitude records.
Speaker 5 00:31:24 They only cared about height so that the V2 could arc over the top of a deadly parabola and scream it's way back towards earth, where it would punch holes into cities, hundreds of miles away. The V2 was never designed to stay up in the heavens. It was designed to fall. The rocket was essentially an enormous projectile that didn't require a cannon. A button was pushed fuel ignited in blinding fury and off it went into the clouds. Although Eli he's, my main character had no way of knowing it at the time he and the other prisoners adore Mitchell bow, we're building the world's first ballistic missile. He later came to understand its terrible destructive power and that the V stood for, for gold tones of alpha vengeance weapon for its victims. It blew open the door to the next world. The V2 was the brainchild of a young man named Verna Von Braun quick with a smile.
Speaker 5 00:32:13 He made parties sparkle with laughter and he was known as something of a ladies. Man, the only in his twenties Von Braun knew how to organize, how to charm. And most importantly, how to turn blueprints into realities. He was the center of gravity for the V2 program at peanut Mundo, all major decisions orbited around him, and he made sure his rockets hit their intended targets. Fun. Brian joined the Nazi party in 1937 and three years later, Heinrich Himmler personally invited him to join the SS. Although Von Braun accepted this commission, he would spend the rest of his life bending attention away from the fact that he was involved with the same organization that ran dollhouse, Treblinka and Auschwitz at first Hitler was totally unimpressed with the V2. He saw it as simply a massive artillery show with an extremely long range, but as Germany began to lose the war, he slowly warmed to the idea he wanted to punish the allies by turning their pretty little cities into smoldering wastelands on a July evening of 1943, Von Braun, dim the lights in an underground bunker and showed the Fure a silent movie of a V2 taking off as the color film, splashed life against a concrete reinforced wall.
Speaker 5 00:33:24 Hitler set slumped in a wooden chair, a black Cape draped over his shoulders. He watched the rocket shoot into the sky on a mute flame. Then it arcs away at three times the speed of sound Hitler, beamed, and jumped to his feet. He wanted to know what the annihilating effect of the warhead might be and apologized that he hadn't believed in the project sooner clapping his hands together. He made the young SS officer, a professor on the spot, a rare honor within days, an order was given for thousands of <inaudible> to be built. The goal was to launch them like locusts towards New York, Washington, DC, and maybe in time they could even reach Chicago. It gives you a sort of an idea of the, the narrative voice and, um, uh, maybe also the level of research that went into writing this novel.
Speaker 0 00:34:10 That's part of what I was going to ask you about where we're talking with Patrick Hicks author of in the shadow of Dora. Um, one of my questions was how did you find out about Dora middle bow? Were you already writing a book and you found this out or did you find this out and then decide to write the book?
Speaker 5 00:34:31 Oh yeah. I love that question. Well, my first novel was it's the commandant of blue possession. It came out in 2014 and it's about a, a Nazi death camp. And I re you know, writing that was hard enough, but, you know, I toured it around the country and it was really kind of hard to talk about the Holocaust all the time. So I thought, well, for my second novel, I'm going to focus on the Apollo program cause I'm kind of a gigantic space nerd. Um, but as I started to think about what that novel might look like, it occurred to me, you know, the, the same Nazi scientists that built the V2 were in charge of NASA. Um, and they, they got us to the moon without those Nazi scientists. Um, I'm very confident in saying we would not have gotten to the moon by the end of the 1960s as Kennedy wanted us to.
Speaker 5 00:35:11 So as I started to think about this, I said, well, maybe I could set the first half of the novel and Dora Mitchell bow. And the second half would be at the Kennedy space center. And what if my main character, um, was tormented by, by people when he was a prisoner of, uh, when he was a prisoner in door missile, bow, and then he works for, um, NASA, um, to get us to the moon. You know, I kind of wondered what that plot would look like and the novel really took off from there, but it's really an intersection of my two great research interests, which is world war II, the Holocaust and, um, and space.
Speaker 0 00:35:43 This must have taken a ton of research. Uh, how much was, uh, um, first what's the word I'm trying to think of. Uh, anyway, how much was it the research that you did, like letters and, and, uh, diaries and stuff like that. And how much was books that you discovered? It seems to me
Speaker 5 00:36:07 It was monumental. I mean, it was, I don't think I'm going to do another novel that has quite as much research, although never say never. I mean, who knows what's going to happen again? I do love the research components, so, um, I knew quite a bit already going into it because, um, I teach courses on the Holocaust. So I knew that part pretty well. I knew the space part pretty well, but, um, I applied for a number of grants and I got something like $12,000 worth of grants. And I went to Dora mental bio on two separate occasions so that I could get inside these secret underground tunnels. And of course, since it's a concentration camp, um, it's now a Memorial and an education center, um, outside of the, uh, German town of Nordhausen. So I went there on two separate occasions. I talked to the curators and looked through archives and things like that.
Speaker 5 00:36:51 And I read a lot of accounts of the men and they're almost all, all men adore metal bow, the men who had managed to survive that camp and then go on to lead lives. Um, and then I also went to the Kennedy space center on, uh, one occasion. I went to the Johnson space flight center in Houston, and I went to the Marshall space flight center in Birmingham, Alabama, which is where the Saturn five was originally developed and built by, um, Verna Von Braun and the other Nazi scientists. So finally sort of answer your question, you know, it was, it was years of research. Um, I, it, it didn't take me too long to write the first draft of this novel, I would say maybe three or four months, but I kept chipping away at the research to make sure that I had everything accurate because I have strong feelings that even though I'm writing fiction, if it's historical fiction, I got to get history the history, right. Especially if I'm writing about the Holocaust, I just, I would see it as a, um, a moral imperative for me to get that correct.
Speaker 0 00:37:45 Um, I know that this is the second book of a trilogy, is that right?
Speaker 5 00:37:53 It is. Um, yeah. So the first one, the commandant of lube is that really looks at memory and how, you know, what's erased. Um, and it was an investigation of the death camps that, uh, were a part of the Holocaust, as you know, they're very different from the concentration camps. Um, so I, I wrote about that. Um, and the second book is really about the acquisition of technology and how, uh, how technology is developed and changed and the morality of technology. I mean, we've got this amazing Saturn five, which takes us to the moon, but it begins life as, um, uh, you know, this Nazi rocket, which murdered an awful lot of people and the third novel, which I'm going to start writing over the summer, once the school year ends, um, it's going to take place in a real life. Uh, all female camp called Ravensbruck, which is just North of Berlin. And I've already gone there on one occasion. And I want to look at the intersections between gender and violence, because, because it was an all female camp that, that meant that female guards were the ones that were there and they were every bit as malicious and vicious as their male counterparts in the other camps. And I want to sort of explore, you know, the microcosm of that particular camp.
Speaker 0 00:39:03 That sounds interesting. That's is that the one where the women played in the orchestra or is that a different camp?
Speaker 5 00:39:10 Oh, no, you are not totally incorrect. There were women that played in the orchestra, but I suspect Liz you're probably thinking of, um, Auschwitz, cause there were, there was a band. Um, there were a number of bands and orchestras that at Auschwitz largely to pacify people, to make them believe that they were, um, getting showers rather than entering the gas chambers. Um, but each camp and I've been to about 11 or 12 concentration camps because of my research, both as a writer and as a scholar and each camp has its own sort of sociological, um, microcosm to it. Uh, and I'm not talking just the layout of the campus a little bit different there's, you know, certain aspects of the things that happened inside that camp or each campus sort of unique in that respect. And it was like every, every horror is kind of fresh and new and invented. And, and depending on which camp you go to,
Speaker 0 00:40:06 I imagine on a, not a different topic, but a little bit different approach that these books must have brought out a lot of emotion and, uh, sadness and difficult, uh, feelings. And I'm wondering how you, uh, kept yourself going, refreshed yourself, healed yourself while you were writing both books and in between the books.
Speaker 5 00:40:34 Yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, these were, these were really brutal to write at times, especially the first novel, um, because it's a death camp, you know, uh, it was really hard. The first draft I had the very vivid nightmares that it was really hard to sleep while I was writing the first draft. Once I got to the second, third or seventh draft, you know, my editorialized sort of took over and that's kind of offered some sort of protective lens or emotional lens, you know, cause at that point it's all craft and trying to make the story work. But the first draft of both of these novels was pretty brutal. Um, so I, I didn't realize it at the time, but while I was working on my first novel, I was also writing a collection of poetry about the adoption of our son. Uh, and I realized now this was all subconscious back when I was doing it.
Speaker 5 00:41:20 But I realized now that I, you know, that my novel is about darkness and genocide and here was this poetry collection I was working on simultaneously, which is about life love and life and hope for the future. And you know, it's basically a bunch of love letters to my son. And I see now in retrospect that I needed to write that collection of poetry to kind of heal myself, as you say. Um, and when it came time to writing this second novel in the shadow of Dora, you know, the first part does take place in dorm mental bowel. So that was hard, but the second part of it takes place in Florida. And my main character is building a new life for himself. So there's necessarily more of an element of hope in my second book, which I think kind of buoyed me in some kind of way.
Speaker 0 00:42:01 Would you say Eli, I realized they didn't have this terminology then, but would you say in the midst of some of the things that he needs to do for himself that he had PTSD?
Speaker 5 00:42:14 Yeah. Yeah, you're absolutely right. That phrase, um, did not exist. Um, I still don't think it existed really up until maybe post Vietnam, but at any rate. Um, yeah, he, um, as he's trying to rebuild his life, I mean, he's, he is visiting psychiatrists and just trying to figure out what the world looks like after he's lost his entire family. I mean, all of his extended family parish, no bits. So, um, he, in my estimation, he definitely is suffering from post-traumatic stress. I mean, how, how, how couldn't Danny's you had to sort of figure out how to carry the crushing weight of the Holocaust with him every day. And I believe that Holocaust survivors, they did, especially the ones that are alive now, they've had to figure out how to carry that pain with them. I don't, I don't think that that's something you can heal from. It's not something you you could or could or should get beyond. And I think you just have to learn how to carry the, the trauma of that with you and then find love and life and, and reasons to sort of continue on. So I do, I did an awful lot of research in part two about, um, how Holocaust survivors, uh, what were their coping mechanisms for, for, for carrying this with them. And, and that was a really gratifying type of research that I did. Uh, just trying to figure out what that looked like.
Speaker 0 00:43:32 I'm wondering, uh, I assume you do a lot of readings and I'm wondering if you kind of do a lot of readings. Um, I'm wondering if you, uh, or how you have been responded to, I know you're Irish, American Catholic guy, and I'm wondering how, uh, uh, Jewish community and especially survivors have responded to your book.
Speaker 5 00:43:59 Yeah. And I'll, you know, I'll be totally honest with you when my first novel was published. I had, I had no idea what to expect and I, I was hoping that, you know, they'd see it as respectful and accurate, you know, more than anything else that it's, you know, accurate again, my, my comments about it, although it's a novel, you still have to have accuracy and history and the first novel, I mean, I toured it all over the place and there was one reading in particular. I remember where the, the person that had invited me to read the room was like 50, 60 people in the room. And HD, you told me before I went out, he said, you know, many of the people in this room are Jewish. And many of them lost family members in the camps. And that was a bracing moment for me.
Speaker 5 00:44:41 And, you know, I went out and I talked about the book and the research, I read some passages from the comment onto <inaudible> and I was just so gratified by the response. And, um, it was, seemed, it seemed clear to me more than one of them said, they were just really grateful that I, uh, go away and Irish Catholic, you know, from Stillwater, Minnesota would, would take such interest and time to commemorate the Holocaust and to get, you know, books out there that might be used to help students in particular understand it a little better. And, and in fact, my first novel is written in high schools. So I find that really gratifying. And I remember when the evening came to a close, there was a, there was a nice Jewish grandmother who came up to me and she said, uh, do you like pie? And I was like, yeah, I love pie. And she's like, you must have pie. So she took me back to her house, which was only a couple of blocks away and we had pie with some of the other survivors there. So I kind of thought, you know, that, that made me feel better. Um, that maybe I was telling the story with accuracy and emotion that is resonating.
Speaker 0 00:45:46 You teach writing. Uh, I'm wondering if, uh, how do I put this of teaching writing has, uh, helped in terms of the emotions and how you approach your students. And if they've written, many of them have read the book or, you know, what's, what's it like to teach differently from the writing? Um, and, uh, what do your students think?
Speaker 5 00:46:10 Oh yeah. Uh, I have, um, cause I teach, um, at Augustana university. So I teach, um, traditional, uh, mostly traditionally aged college students, 18 to 22, but I also teach in the MFA program at Sierra Nevada university where they're, most of my students are older than 30. And you know, they've been around the block a few times and maybe they've even had some, some types of publications. So I, I really deal with two very different groups of writers and I intentionally target what I'm going to be teaching into higher, low, higher order things in lower order things, you know? So my introduction to creative writing course, you know, we're not going to be talking about some of the more advanced things that you need to think about, like with the perspective and the dialogic imagination and few other things like that. Um, but I, I, it's really wonderful to see my students, um, really begin to craft stories that are good and I can see them taking these ideas and putting them in the, the mix of their brain and coming up with really good stories. So it's, uh, it's really gratifying, especially since I can see that there, especially my, my college students are getting a sense of confidence with their literary voice. And I mean, that's wonderful whether they go on to become published writers or not is really secondary to my goal of just giving them the confidence in their writing to write with, um, uh, to get on the page what's in their head.
Speaker 0 00:47:38 You also write essay as if I'm not mistaken, you've been nominated for several pushcart prizes. Um, what kind of stuff do you like to write about in your essays?
Speaker 5 00:47:50 Ah, yeah, I, uh, I L well, the fee, I wrote a, an essay that was published in Alaska quarterly review. Oh, a couple of years ago. And, um, sort of, how do we word this without sounding totally arrogant here? Because I don't mean it that way, but it's an essay I've been wanting to write for years and years. And finally, one January I wrote, I sat down and wrote it because my mom is an immigrant from Northern Ireland and the Titanic was built in Northern Ireland. And, uh, my uncle died in a horrifying car accident when I was only about four or five years old. And it was, it's a braided essay about the Titanic sinking below the waves. And, uh, my uncle crashing into a stationary truck like an iceberg and his coffin sinking away, and this sense of loss and immigration. So that's an essay I published a couple of years ago called in the shadow of the Titanic, but I'm working on an essay right now.
Speaker 5 00:48:48 And, um, I'm gonna start shopping it around pretty soon called borderlands where I've been to a number of contentious borders in the world because of my travels. So I'm sort of investigating that negative space where two countries can exist, but neither of them really owns the space and what it means to cross borders. So like I was at the DMZ between North and South Korea. Um, I've been in the West bank. Um, I lived in Belfast for a while during the troubles and there the peace walls between the Catholic and Protestants. Um, I lived in Germany for awhile, so I saw the Berlin wall very shortly after, um, 1989. So, uh, I'm working on that right now and I'm really pleased at how it's come together. Um, there's, it doesn't feel like it's quite ready for publication. So I know that's a long answer, but, um, you got me fired up to talk about my latest writing project.
Speaker 0 00:49:34 Good answer. A braided essay are kind of difficult. I, as the writer, I know that. Um, how would you say this book has changed you in the large sense of both your thinking and your emotions and your writing? I mean, how has it changed everything?
Speaker 5 00:49:56 Wow. That's um, well I know it's, um, this was, this was a craft problem that I came along when I was writing the first draft of in the shadow of Dora. The, the first part of it takes place in Nazi, Germany in, uh, you know, the secret underground concentration camp. And I went into that feeling pretty confident that I would be able to write that well enough that it would make me content for a first draft. Uh, and then when I finished the first part and I had to transition to writing about, uh, the Kennedy center in the year 1969, I was really naive quite frankly, because I remember sitting down at my computer and I wrote the first paragraph of my character. Who's now in Florida. And the year is 1969. And I realized just because this is my country, and I know my country's history.
Speaker 5 00:50:43 Well, I, I had to rethink everything because I was like, Oh God, my main character is a Holocaust survivor. He's lost his whole family. I mean, what, what do the 1960s look like to him? Um, what does the cold war look like to him? How would he feel about the civil rights marches? I'm positive, he'd be in favor of, you know, civil rights. So I had to really stop myself and, and really remind myself with every sentence that I need to look at America in 1969 through the eyeballs of my character, who would definitely be seen America differently. Then maybe we, we think about the 1960s today. You know, there's no hippie kids, there's no sense of woods. There's no mention of Woodstock. Um, the Vietnam war comes up occasionally, but it's, you know, just something that's on my character's radar. And he finds himself looking at a newspaper, for example, you know, and the headline reads, you know, another 21 Americans die in Vietnam. And from his perspective, that is nothing. Uh, you know, if you think about his experiences of going through the Holocaust. So that was something that I had to re-imagine my own country's history through the eyes of an immigrant that has suffered this horrifying trauma.
Speaker 0 00:51:55 Well, we have run out of time. Patrick, we've been speaking with Patrick Hicks author of, in the shadow of Dora and some other amazing books and essays and poetry. Uh, do you have anything you want to finish up with anything you'd like to tell us?
Speaker 5 00:52:13 I'm just really grateful to be on the show. Thank you so much. Cause I know that you, you know, have a lot of people that you could could use as guests. And I just, I really appreciated the time, not just to talk about the novel, but I'm aware that the novel is a vehicle that allows me to speak about a moment in world history that we should not forget and cannot forget. Um, and if I'm being honest, that's one of the reasons I wrote these books is that it affords me the possibility to come on shows like yours and to talk about these horrifying events that happened in the 1930s and 1940s, a new, okay,
Speaker 0 00:52:48 Well, thank you very much. We must never forget. And, um, yes. And, uh, that's all we have to talk about tonight. Thank you, Patrick Hicks. And I hope people will seek out your novel in the shadow of Dora as well as the commandant of lube check. Is that how you pronounce it?
Speaker 5 00:53:08 That's correct. Yes, that's correct. Thank you so much, Liz, take care. All right, bye.
