Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 I'm Josh Webber tonight on, right on radio. Any Harvey we'll be talking with Susan Conley, the author of five critically claimed books, including her novel landslide. Her writing has appeared in the New York times magazine. The Paris review, the Virginia quarterly review, the Harvard review and others. She has been awarded multiple fellowships from the MacDowell colony, as well as fellowships from the bread loaf writers conference, the Maine arts commission and the Massachusetts arts council. She's on the faculty of the stone coast MFA program as a co-founder of the telling room, a creative writing lab for kids in Portland, Maine,
Speaker 1 00:00:36 And I'm losing the old in the last part of the hour. Dave Fettig talks with audio me out in Washington, the author of sea horses, as well as to other poetry coat collections and the author, the editor of three anthologies. I'm having trouble reading this. Um, he is the winner of the Hudson prize and a recipient of a grant from the international center for writing and translation out in Washington, teaches at the university of Wisconsin Oshkosh and lives in green day, Wisconsin. <inaudible> well, hi, I'm Annie. I'm here. Uh, welcoming Susan Conley onto the show. Susan, can you hear me okay? I can. Thank you. Excellent. Um, let's just dive right into it with your new book landslide. Uh, do you have a little passage you could read out loud to really get us into the feeling of the book?
Speaker 2 00:01:40 I do. I'll read from the very opening of the novel we are in rural coastal Maine. It is October and we've got two teenagers and their mom driving back to a little dock where they're going to get on their little skiff and go back to their tiny little Island where they live. It's late afternoon at the end of a long October, when the Fleetwood Mac song comes on, we're halfway down the peninsula. And I tell the wolves I was raised on Stevie Nicks. So could they please let me listen to the whole thing? Because Sam, the younger one has a bad habit of changing the station. Mom. He says in his dead pan and stares at the cracked windshield, I already knew that about you growing up on Stevie Nicks, he's 16 and gangly with poking collarbones, like little car door handles. He wants to be a professional basketball player, but we'll settle for rock musician.
Speaker 2 00:02:37 His face has grown long and gone. So he doesn't look like himself, but the person he's in the process of becoming, I tell myself it's a beautiful face. It's important to tell myself that many things about teenage boys are beautiful. So I don't panic the songs about a woman who climbs a mountain that the end of a love affair and Caesar reflection in the snow covered Hills and becomes afraid it's in a challenging register for me. So I'm almost crowing while I sing, but for many months I've wanted to be less afraid. And I feel for a moment like Stevie Nicks is a close friend. Like she knows me, I'll stop there.
Speaker 1 00:03:17 That was great. Um, that was a great welcoming in to kind of the mother son dynamic, um, in a lot of ways, this whole story, uh, feels to me like a woman's voice about the kind of silence and judgment that, uh, kind of accompanies, uh, incidentally, many different facets of American masculinity. Um, like the mother feeling guilt, uh, but not having the vocabulary to discuss it, um, to feeling embarrassed about her interests and needs even just wanting to sing in the car and, um, the men of the family, trying to feel like a breadwinner, um, rather than spending time with them. Um, in this story, you build such a careful female perspective. And I was wondering if you ever thought about telling this story, uh, from anything but a mother's perspective or a woman's perspective?
Speaker 2 00:04:10 Mm yeah, no, I, I was very committed and very intentional about exploring that relationship between the mother and the two boys. Um, I really wanted to unpack it and look at it from a lot of different angles and, you know, sort of to your point, any really, really look at and question these sort of really overused tropes around masculinity. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:04:41 Yeah. Uh, so for those who haven't read the book yet, remember we're discussing landslide by Susan Conley, it's a new novel. Um, and in the story there's there's motherhood. Um, the protagonist mother Jill's, uh, husband is, uh, often Canada sick and she's in an injured and she's in Maine and the United States, uh, with her two teenage boys, uh, trying to help them navigate life, uh, try not to give away too many spoilers. Um, but the further along in the story we get, the more it becomes apparent, uh, or at least did to me as a reader that Jill acknowledges the fact that what she is able to assume about her husband and sons, when they don't communicate all their thoughts and goals and feelings with her is not complete information. Um, but that she is unable to understand many of the behaviors anyway. Um, like one of her sons, Sam gets into some substance abuse and her husband kit is pretty cold. Um, so what we have here for those who have studied writing or who read a lot, um, it is a non omniscient narrator. We have a narrator who does not understand everything that's going on. Um, so talk about writing the book from the perspective of a character who's in that knowledge gap of not being omniscient, um, while also trying to give all the characters, dimensionality, and space to be themselves, instead of just, I dunno, stress projections of Jill.
Speaker 2 00:06:08 Mm. Yeah. Great, great question. So many little facets to that question. Um, so I write for sure for conflict, I write for tension and thus, I really love characters who have blind spots, right. And who, who can't see and know everything. And then I felt like I wanted this mother to be often on her heels, kind of, you know, kind of defense kind of unsure, trying to, to, um, kind of subvert the stereotypes around connecting with, with the boys, but also having sometimes to play to the stereotypes and then, you know, basically not being in control, right. She's just very rarely in control. Um, and then I wanted to see what would happen to her. There's a lot of S lot of stresses are put on her, I think.
Speaker 1 00:07:09 Absolutely. Um, speaking of the control level, um, at one point in the book, uh, uh, a note that Jill gives, um, kind of in her, in her past tense first person is, um, she describes herself as so dramatic. It's cringy now. Um, and so we're picturing Jill, the book is in first person, um, recounting this story to herself and seeing herself as so dramatic. It's cringy now, um, where in time and space do you picture the Jill who's telling this story to us in this book.
Speaker 2 00:07:43 Yeah. Right. Um, so that's a great question too, because when we use this, this whole idea of retrospective voice, right, we're, we're implying that there's a, uh, uh, present from what she is looking over her shoulder, and it can be a great device because it creates tension. I think that she's speaking from a place, um, that's probably not, probably not in the fishing village where she, she is living during the story. I'm, I'm guessing that they've moved on, there's some big revelations near the end of the book that should give us some insights into some of the trauma that, that her husband's been experiencing. And I think they, they probably have moved on, um, that's about as far as I can, I can go with what what's happened to them, but yeah, I think be done. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:08:36 Yeah. I think another thing that was interesting about reading this for me is that Jill is a creative individual. Um, she's a filmmaker, she's a documentarian, and that comes up in a few places in the book. Um, but she is both, uh, she, this book is not about her making the documentary it's about her family. Um, and in like, I don't, she seems a little too close to the subject matter, uh, to be making a documentary about it. Like a lot of things that happened in the book seem to be very like, uh, things that happen, um, in a family when people are tired, like all the, all this sibling argument, dialogue and stuff, all, uh, felt very real to me. Um, are there any ways that the Jill being a documentarian kind of informed ways that you structured the story or is that fully just like another interesting facet of her personality that doesn't really play into, um, her worldview in terms of her family? Hmm.
Speaker 2 00:09:33 So she's a, she's a sear, she's a, she's a, um, she's always watching. Right. And she, she, she frames things, um, through, I think a L a lens of, um, cinema. So she's looking at the ocean, she's looking at the sky, she's looking at her children, there's this sense of, um, always a running narrative. I think that's really interesting question. You asked, how does her documentarian work, inform her like, um, experience, um, on a day to day level. Um, but I also think that, um, she is, she's pretty actually, she's pretty wise because she knows the greatest risk she has is, is to lose, to lose her teenage boys. And there's one thing that, you know, I, myself, as a mother, I've seen play out many times where there's this fine, fine sort of balancing act for a mother in terms of placating sublimating herself to keep the connection alive with the boy. Um, during, during the years where, um, the boy might be buying into some, some larger story about his own masculinity. And so I think she's, I think she's navigating it. Um, she isn't always in control, but she also, she's also playing her cards, you know, if I, if I could use that metaphor. Totally. Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:11:07 Yeah, totally. Oh, that's super interesting. Um, so Jill, it seems is vaguely aware of the traumas that, especially Sam and kit, Sam being her younger son and kit being her spouse, um, having their past, but, um, not in super good detail. So even as she's the sear, and even as she's this a student observer, um, one of the cruxes of the book, at least to me, was there wasn't really a good way existing so far for them to communicate those difficulties. And, um, I was just wondering as a creator. Um, I know you mentioned before, uh, the importance of telling the story from Joe's perspective. Um, but you ever think about telling parts of this story from the perspective of a kid or the children, or, um, rotating in a different perspective, because I think there are some pretty big revelations that crack open at the end about, um, trauma that the male characters are carrying, but don't know how to express. And, um, it was like interesting. I just spent 200 pages, uh, not knowing that, and it kind of blew me out of the water. Uh, so just curious about that on the, on the creators side.
Speaker 2 00:12:25 Yeah. No, um, yeah, that's a great question. I, again, I was really looking for that line of tension, Annie, so I was more interested in how we can't know yeah. One and no. So Jill wants to know, and she knows there's there's things underneath the surface and she's, she's been very dialed into trying to get her younger Sam son, Sam support, but then she has to go on sort of what he says and how he's related and, um, his experience. And she actually, I mean, and, and, you know, this is a whole other sort of little sub theme is social media actually gives her a little bit of insight into his suffering. Um, and there's this whole idea, um, that the therapist, um, Nettie who's has seen Sam, you know, says has this line, which is sort of, um, I'm paraphrasing it a little, but it's that many boys had mistaken ideas about what masculinity meant. And they S when they didn't need to suffer, and that comes like early, like teach 2030. And I remember when I wrote that, I felt like, okay, yeah, this is sort of, this is the water I need to swim in. And this novel is kind of more silent suffering that the, the mother, the father don't even know. Um, and then someone finally cracks it open.
Speaker 1 00:14:00 Yeah. Yeah. It was interesting to me. And I liked how, um, kind of the wisdom of the counselor bookends the book. Like there's a significant discussion at the end and a significant discussion at, at the beginning. Um, but there's really so much family navigation in the middle, um, because it, it can take so long to unpack something that's just totally different than the way you've been living or, um, conceiving of something. Um, on a similar note, I just wanted to ask, so Sam in the book has an older brother, his older brother is Charlie again, for those who haven't read the book yet, Charlie, uh, is kind of the family member that Jill seems sometimes able to confide in. He's got some of those classic older brother characteristics, a little more calm, a little better at communicating. Um, try trying really hard at school and stuff like that. He's, he's navigating being in love for the first time. Again, just more facets of the book for you to enjoy when you pick it up. Um, but did you feel as you created this story, like, um, Charlie was able to help Jill navigate uncertainty better? And if so, how do you think that went?
Speaker 1 00:15:25 Hm,
Speaker 2 00:15:27 That's a great question. Let me think. Does he help her navigate uncertainty?
Speaker 1 00:15:31 <inaudible> he, he starts to
Speaker 2 00:15:36 Come into his own, I think when real trouble hits. Yeah. I won't, I guess I won't be too explicit about it, but in the latter half of the book, I feel like he's steady and he kind of he's calm And he starts to have you're right. He has a lot of older brother tendencies. He is also madly in love though, and full like teen full dive into love. And I think there's a line about how, like, he's left them. It's like, he's, he's crossed the river. He's left the family because love has striked. His love has struck him down, like, and nobody really knows what's happening when love strikes someone. Um, and they all are kind of like what's happening to chart. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:16:27 Well, him, uh, there, there are so many, like, I think that this book overall is very thoughtful. Pensive gives you a lot to kind of chew on and think about, but the little bits in this book were so funny, like from the brothers talking about each other's weird patchy facial hair, or them being like Charlie, suddenly you want to like cook a fancy dinner. Uh, you're impressing this person. Like there's there's, there are just so many good little tidbits that I, uh, as an, as an older sibling, the older sibling jokes, uh, to me were pretty funny. Um, another kind of constant household, I guess I could maybe say gag. Um, they're always, uh, this is a little, it's a little more of a sad gig, but, uh, Sam and Charlie are always asking Jill to like, be quiet. Um, please don't wear that. Please. Don't say that word like it's cool. Um, and then kind of on a less conscious level, not really taking an interest in her past being literally a rock photographer in Europe, uh, which seems like it would be interesting, especially because Sam is really interested in making music. Um, and I was just wondering that, uh, in what ways do you think that Jill is being silenced either literally or metaphorically or emotionally by her family without them the implications and how did that go into your making of this book?
Speaker 2 00:17:53 Hmm. Yeah. So, um, another great question. And it's, it's so nuanced. Um, my, my, my intention banality around it was to, again, show the high wire act of mothering, um, volatile teens. They are devoted and there's deep love. There's deep love. So there's this there's, this don't sing, you know, or sing normally. And then, then it's, can we cuddle? Can we get in bed and eat barbecue, potato chips and read together, um, there's this push Paul and I, I was really trying to show in a way the harrowing individuation that boys need to do from their mother. So in some ways it's like a stage play. Like they actually have to go through that phase where they're almost despicable. Um, so I'm not sure. And it mean that you make a great point. I'm not sure how silence Jill feels, because I think she knows that for them to have Holy realize lives like autonomous lives, they kind of have to break with her and not they're going through that disinterested phase.
Speaker 2 00:19:05 I I'm, I'm hopeful that they would come back around and be those like very interested young men in their twenties. Yeah. Um, if there's something about those teen years, that's so myopic, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a, it's a, it's a really fine line. She walks and that's not to say that Jill, um, doesn't have times where she feels really, really, you know, disheartened and really not seen and not heard. Like I don't want to underestimate that. That's a large part. Why I wrote the book was to show those moments where you, you almost just, she wants to almost bang her head against the steering wheel of her Subaru as she drives this rural road in Maine, because she has to stay in the moment with them, even though like the barbs are flying. Right. And I'm grateful to you for pointing out the humor, because I think humor is the way out of that. And I think she chooses humor to come back to them with, um, and she, when she goes to humor, it diffuses them in a good way, particularly Sam. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:20:19 Yeah. And I love, especially how humor, um, really, I'm just going to say this cause it's 20, 21 and probably a lot of people, uh, need to need to read towards a happy ending and feel a sense of unity in something. Um, humor brings the family together in a really beautiful, uh, small, comfortable way at the very end of the book. And, um, I just think it's so fun that this book had such a large range, uh, between the, the very funny to the like cosmically funny, but not laughing funny to the very serious, um, to kind of go back. Uh, we're almost running out of time, but just with one more question. Um, so you read at the beginning that wonderful passage where, uh, Jill gets excited because the Stevie Nicks song comes on. Um, did you choose landside as the title of the book for reasons besides that musical reference happening there?
Speaker 2 00:21:19 I did. You're, you're setting me up so well, thanks take a beautiful big metaphor, right? Book for child rearing for teenage boys undergoing landslides of change for climate change in coastal areas like, like w you know, our, our working waterfronts here in coastal Maine, but, but, you know, coastal areas all over the United States and, and, and everywhere else for that matter. But landslide really worked as a kind of play on the, the, the dailies. Like there's a lot of trouble raining down, right. There's a lot of trouble. And then there's the actual, I mean, the, the fish stocks are decimated and can, can commercial fishermen fish anymore here in Maine and then marriage and door, you know? So once I, once I landed on, you know, that Stevie Nicks song, which was really the very first, um, seed and first lines of the book, I knew play with it, and I could really have some fun with it. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:22:27 Yeah. Just one more thing on, uh, references and, uh, possible research before you wrap up really quick, did you interview or spend time with fishing families like Joe's family at all in the making of this book?
Speaker 2 00:22:42 I did. Thanks for asking. That's a great, you know, last bit of info. I, I, I did, I, I interviewed a number of fishermen. I also, I mean, I'm fourth generation Maine. I grew up in rural coastal Maine, and I know a lot of fishermen and lobstermen, but I specifically set out to talk to them about, um, the perils, um, and the deep challenges of trying to hold onto their boats right now and keep their livelihoods. So, um, that informed a great deal of, um, what goes into kit, the, one of the main characters and his father, Jimmy. Yeah. And I really wanted to honor them and honor that the legacy of fishing that they're trying to carry on. Um, yeah.
Speaker 1 00:23:27 Yeah. I think the place felt so deeply real and the people's worries, uh, felt so deeply real the whole, um, do we change our whole lives, uh, because of climate change, will that happen for us? Will it happen in our lifetime? Um, I just think it was crafted so well. Um, so thank you. It's such a joy to have
Speaker 2 00:23:46 You on the show. Oh, thank you so much. I love your questions and I, it's been a great treat to be here with you, Annie. Thank you. Are you working on anything exciting right now? I'm just starting. I'm just starting in a new novel. Yeah. I think I'm very much actually about women and, and these issues of power. So it will actually not be about boys very much about women. Well, thank you so much, everyone. This has been Susan Conley, the author of the newly released novel landslide. Absolutely. Wonderful. Um, thank you so much for being on the show, Susan and take good care. Okay. Any, thank you. Bye.
Speaker 3 00:24:30 Okay. Thank you, Annie and Eddie agreed for the first part of the Susan Conley. That was fantastic. Welcome. Uh, I'll be your maid. Pardon me? I hope I have that right. Or in close. Welcome to ride on radio. Thank you for having me here. It's a pleasure to have you, uh, before we get started on your poetry and we hear one of your poems, uh, please, uh, give us a little background about yourself, how you came to be, uh, in the lovely town of green Bay, Wisconsin. And, um, there we go. I bet you want me okay. All yours.
Speaker 3 00:25:07 Thanks for having me on. Um, so I'm an immigrant from Nigeria. Um, I came to the United States in the mid 1990s, um, kind of, um, we were disillusioned by the political landscape, um, in Nigeria with the arbitrary gene and my family moved to the United States. And, um, my journeys through the United States took me through to an MFA program. Um, several of them have programs or writing programs. Um, I met my wife at a university she's from green Bay and she loves green Bay too much. I was going to say, so it's a nice town. It's a lovely town. I love it so much. So this is the reason why I've, I've been living here. I'm married to my lovely wife since 2012. Well, congratulations. Thank you. And I've been teaching at the university of Wisconsin Oshkosh, um, for that, for the same amount of time. Great. So, uh, you took some MFA programs, uh, when did poetry come into your life? Poetry came into my life. Um, I like to say poetry came to my life late. Okay. There's no such thing in terms of years. Um, let's say over 20 years, about 25 years, um, I've been trying to write poetry now. Um, and there is no such
Speaker 4 00:26:44 Thing as poetry coming into someone's life late. Um, you, it becomes important to you when you have a certain need for it, but I still feel as if it came into my life later.
Speaker 3 00:26:59 Okay. Well, you've written some very powerful poems. I will say that I look forward to talking to you about them. Um, but let's get started in hear from you so we can get a sense for what you're all about.
Speaker 4 00:27:11 Okay. You would like me to read a poem from the new collection.
Speaker 3 00:27:14 Yeah, please. And if you want to set us up, that would be nice.
Speaker 4 00:27:17 All right. Let me begin by reading the poem, um, title nooses. Okay. And it's a poem that speaks to, or I had in mind in composing the poem, the kind of rhetoric leveled against immigrants for them to go back where they came from, to be sure. Um, Elon Omar, the lawmaker from Minnesota, this kind of rhetoric was leveled at her as well. And I was particularly surprised by how quickly other lawmakers try to explain that harsh, maybe even re racist rhetoric, how they try to explain it away quickly with the aid of certain cable news networks. So this is a poem called nooses,
Speaker 5 00:28:20 Okay.
Speaker 4 00:28:26 After they were discovered at the local elementary school, this scandal broke and made news to contain the conversation and clarify his views. The headmaster invited parents that next morning to the school where he held up nooses and gently explained that since no one was dangling from each, the ropes in his hands could not be nooses and tightened around trees. Each is safe for play in tars. And if kids decide to swing from branch to sand pets, not to mention tug of war when not at on both ends. And the kids split into teams.
Speaker 5 00:29:35 Yes.
Speaker 4 00:29:39 At the end of his speech, across the room, tensions, ease parents thinking of withdrawing. Their kids went home with pallets of watercolor and nooses that evening at kitchen tables throughout the district, families were engrossed in all manner of rope crafts, some painted them yellow, some orange than pink, some glued on plastic eyes and right below painted faculty lips, some cared, nothing of proportions and place them as shin Yun, an exotic Barbie dolls, others after dipping them in purple dye, lays them as scarves around the necks of toy gorillas.
Speaker 3 00:30:51 Wow. That was a, your yummy, I mean, Marshawn shotgun, reading nooses, I was close. You smiled reading nooses from seahorses, his poetry collection. Um, a bio, if I may, that's how you gonna sign? Thank you. Uh, what a powerful poem to start us off. Uh, so we could spend the whole show talking about this one. Uh, so many haunting stanzas in here. One for me was families were engrossed in all manner of rope crafts. They'd go home from this event with the headmaster thinking, Oh, everything's fine. It's just rope. Let's take these newses home or let's go home and play with nooses because it's okay to do so. No harm was meant. Um, boy, it's just a great metaphor for everything you described in your intro. Um, here I am talking about it and you should be talking about it, but it's a powerful ball.
Speaker 4 00:31:49 Sure. Thank you. And I was, I was particularly, as I said earlier, I was particularly surprised by how easy it was for people to rationalize, um, without condemnation that kind of harsh, maybe even racist, um, rhetoric, um, some people saying, because the re the word race wasn't used, then it's not racist, which I don't quite understand.
Speaker 3 00:32:18 Yeah. The headmaster in here could be a stand in for all types of authority. Is, is that how you had it, like people taking their lead from a certain leader, how they should react to certain issues or events?
Speaker 4 00:32:36 Very much. So the headmaster is somebody who is supposed to be, um, a person of authority. The people look to for direction. He is in charge of the every day, um, is in charge of the, every day of every day, dealing with children, trying to point them in the right direction. So not only is he dealing with children is also in a way dealing with parents as well, trying to show, you know, people who were growing up, um, how to behave, what to look to, and this is the same individual, um, articulating this kind or behaving in this manner.
Speaker 3 00:33:25 Yeah. So I had, uh, themes for meeting your, your poems, uh, sort of main themes for me, political, religious, but somewhat nebulous in terms of religion. I want to talk about that. We'll get into that a little later, and then I would say geographics or home or places, um, these sorts of ideas among others really resonated for me and these poems. And you've kicked off with nuisance, um, the strong political nature of many of your poems, um, especially, and also having to do with immigration. Right. Uh,
Speaker 4 00:34:03 Go ahead. So in my previous two poetry collections, um, the theme of the immigrants experience are somewhat more muted, but, um, the last four years has been really, or the last, maybe even five years has been really hard on immigrant communities, um, across the board, especially immigrant communities of color. And when I say that, I don't just mean black immigrants. I mean, um, Asian immigrants across the immigrant, um, people of color across the board, um, people being attacked, um, people's places of business being destroyed, um, families being torn apart, um, the policy, the, the zero tolerance policy that has had a devastating effect on so many family members. Um, so I had no choice with this poetry collection to approach this notion of the immigrant experience in a more pronounced way. Um, I did not have the luxury of, um, being more nuanced. I did not have the luxury of, um, being subtle. It had to be pronounced even if not the whole collection for at least, um, one of the sections within the collection.
Speaker 3 00:35:46 Well, yes. Well, the previous pumps, when you just read after coming home from the detainment camp, um, very, another striking, powerful poem. There are some quotes in here. Um, or these quotes that you pick up, if you will, from real life to use a crude term. No. Okay. Okay. Uh, but they certainly lend power to the story though. There's a strong character development in these poems, I guess I would say,
Speaker 4 00:36:14 Right. Did you want me to read that poem also?
Speaker 3 00:36:17 Oh, sure. That would be marvelous. Yes.
Speaker 4 00:36:19 Okay. After coming home from the detainments camp, you take a long shower with hot water to cleanse yourself of the re of the urine and stench, those foreign animals drink and use to wash themselves. You throw your uniform, socks and underpants in the washer, then scrubbed your hands a second time after dinner, you chat with your wife about her favorite reality TV show who among the character has wrestled each other to the ground who survived the night's elimination round. You indulge your daughter in a late night snack of mint ice cream. Then talk her in bed. After telling stories of Munsters from far places who speak different languages than are always feel fake. When the house is silent, you oil your gun, Polish, your boots and Baton, test your walkies and arrange your keys. And because you won't touch each animals, sweat and worms in the morning, you buy a new pair of latex gloves, but that's tomorrow. You tell yourself, as you create a two glasses and a bottle of wine for you and your loving wife who is waiting naked and impatient in bed.
Speaker 3 00:38:27 Thank you a bio. So immigration poem, if you will, uh, from the point of view of a guard, uh, very powerful. Um,
Speaker 5 00:38:42 Just
Speaker 3 00:38:44 Leads me to want to ask you a personal question if you don't mind, but, but how, how has it been your, what is your experience been like in coming to America? How did you find America? How did Americans find you?
Speaker 4 00:38:59 Thank you for asking that question. Yes.
Speaker 5 00:39:01 Um,
Speaker 4 00:39:04 It has to be said that as an immigrant of color, you have to resign yourself to the fact that you have to do, um, at least seven times the work to get one time to look and you have to do it without complaining. Uh, you have to have a smile on your face and you, you can't complain about it. Um, you have to, um, be appreciative of whatever opportunities come your way. And even when the opportunities are not there, um, you have to be appreciative still,
Speaker 5 00:39:43 Right? In terms of place.
Speaker 3 00:39:51 I've lost my notes here in terms of which poem, uh,
Speaker 5 00:39:58 Oh,
Speaker 3 00:39:58 When you were referring to places, uh, in Africa or the, in Nigeria, are they, are they references to your own home? Um, is that when you talk about plays, you're, you're usually not very specific. Um, we get a general sort of idea of where we're at, we're in the upper Midwest, maybe we're down South, maybe we're somewhere in Africa. Uh, clearly that's by intent,
Speaker 5 00:40:25 Right? Right. So
Speaker 4 00:40:29 The immigrant experience involves movements across, um, national boundaries across borders. And just because you're going from country a to country B doesn't mean that all of country a is erased when you get to contribute all these elements, um, are in conversation, um, find themselves in conversation with each other, whatever boundaries, borders, legal papers, um, document that allow you to move from one to the other, all of a sudden, these take a back seat and elements from the one place from one geographical location and the next, uh, thrown together, um, in a kind of, I'm going to use, use the word messy, but I don't mean that in a derogatory term, in a derogatory way, but it's just the reality of it. And much of the immigrant experience is trying to sort out how that internal landscape, um, is shaped to topography. Oh, I can turn a landscape. Okay.
Speaker 3 00:41:40 So you've chosen poetry to get at some of these very big issues. Um, what do you think, how do you think poetry can help us navigate some of these big questions that we're talking about immigration and fitting in, and, uh, what's the place of poetry and these last four years, four years going forward and being around right now in this crazy world,
Speaker 4 00:42:04 I used to have one of my really, um, one of my influences, people that I really go to, um, is a German, is the German poet real cup, and is a poet who I don't mean to be reductive here, but solitude is very features prominently in his writings, trying to cope with it. Um, and I love his writings. I could read them all day, but there is no. What I found is that there is no sidelines. Um, I did not have the luxury of just being on the sidelines and writing about me, trying to be in solitude all the time. This past five years, families were being separated. Um, kids can't find hundreds of children don't know, um, where their parents are, immigrant communities are being attacked. Um, I did not have that kind of luxury, um, this past five years. So again, that's the reason why it's more pronounced, um, in this book, even though each section of the book does something different, um, concerning the immigrant experience. So it's, um, again, it depends on the poet, but poets, um, do have responsibilities. Um, a poet is not special is just found a medium for him to, um, tap into something that's beyond him or her or them. So poet is not special. He, in my view, um, has to be involved in trying to make the world a better place either through the medium, through the actions or maybe a combination of both.
Speaker 3 00:44:04 Right. Right. Thank you for that. When I was stumbling around before, which I do quite often as listeners of this program, no. When you were speaking about having to wear a face, what I was trying to recall was the actual poem, the face you wear, and I believe that's probably what you were referring to. Uh, it's a beautiful, um, description of, uh, exactly I think what you were describing. So I recommend that, that, that poem for our listeners, again, I want to remind them, jeez, we're nearing the end here, but, uh, we'll get a chance to repeat this again. I'm speaking with your ma I need my Schwann about his poetry collection. See horses just out are recently out from black Lawrence, press our friends at black Lauren's press. Um, another theme that I mentioned earlier, if we have chance to talk a little about of it, about it is religion. And I mentioned it because there are some, a couple of poems in particular, um, that at least allude to religion, if they don't necessarily talk about it so directly. So you sort of, uh, uh, very nebulously or sometimes almost in a subtle dance, like way, uh, deal with religious sort of, uh, ideas. Am I reading that right?
Speaker 4 00:45:13 Absolutely. The landscape I grew up in, in Nigeria who, um, is a very religious landscape. I heard somewhere, I can't even remember who said it or when the Nigeria might perhaps be the most religious country in the world. Um, walk on any, you know, in any aspect of any region of Legos, where I'm from, uh, stated near and dear to my heart, because it's alive, it's vibrant. Um, you will see mosques and you will see churches. You will see, um, people who practice traditional religions, um, in so many ways. So all of these elements are there. I grew up with all these stories where I grew up in a Muslim family, even do I don't any religion formerly. Now I grew up in Muslim in a Muslim family, and I would go with friends to churches and I was able to in my child would be able to see how some of these Ultimate's old Testament stories were in conversation with each other, even though they're from different traditions. So I grew up with these stories and in a way I can't shake my childhood. Okay.
Speaker 3 00:46:35 Yes. Yeah. You can try. So how much of that, um, w and we all have many of us have similar experiences, you know, we experienced religion in a certain way in our youth, and maybe we do or don't or experience it differently to what degree it has, uh, Islam. And maybe these other influences that you brought is still with you
Speaker 4 00:47:01 Very much. So they allow me, they allow me this kind of grace to not be purest about any religious tradition, too, because of my childhood to be, to instead seek, um, the intersectionalities and how they speak to each other. And, um, what kinds of message, um, resonates in one, as it resonates in, in another. And it's put me in a place where I don't quite understand how some people might look, some people call themselves Christians, or even Muslims. They can look at each other and say, you are the enemy because you don't believe what I believe. Yeah. Understand that I do not subscribe to it. It's not the way I view religion.
Speaker 3 00:47:55 Yeah, yeah. Your poems by, or as I mentioned earlier, very raw, very real. Um, I, I remember I made a note to myself when I was reading the poem of the good and the pure, the good and pure, I felt like I was reading a Hieronymus Bosch painting, of course, familiar with his work. Uh, so, uh, to those of our listeners, and that's certainly all of them who are familiar with Bosch, uh, this is what you're getting with. VARs is a really powerful imagery. Um, uh, w where do you get your inspiration? Where do you get your ideas? How do you, uh, sit down and get this, get these poems written
Speaker 4 00:48:42 Well, play features prominently. Um, but then again, I use the word I say, play, but then I just mean this kind of willingness to put several elements that seem to be disparate on this, in the same space and see what happens. Um, again, my internal landscape is filled with disparate elements and they condition how I approach poetry. Again, different traditions, not just religion, but also scholarly, um, traditions, Western Europe, uh, um, maybe even the, the portrait tradition of the United States and what people are writing in Nigeria. Now, all of these are in conversation within me.
Speaker 3 00:49:32 Sure. What do you teach a Bible?
Speaker 4 00:49:35 I teach poetry, or I teach, we all teach first-year writing, but they're all geared toward, um, the immigrant experience for the most part.
Speaker 3 00:49:46 Great, great. Uh, before we have to leave and I can't believe we're near the end of our time with up a yummy, I need my Schwann and his poetry collection to see horses. I believe I butchered your name, a bio a little bit that time, and probably every time you're so gracious. It's been a pleasure speaking with you. Please look it up. See horses online from black Lawrence press. And before I send it back to the studio, what are you working on next?
Speaker 4 00:50:12 Um, I'm working on a new poetry collection. I hope something good comes out of it.
Speaker 3 00:50:20 I'm quite certain that I will. Thank you. A bio. It's been a real treat meeting you. Thank you so much for the time. Wish you all the best.
Speaker 1 00:50:28 And now this
Speaker 5 00:50:31 <inaudible>,
Speaker 1 00:51:10 You are listening to right on radio on KFH 90.3 FM and streaming live on the web at <inaudible> dot org. I'm Mandy Harvey. I'd like to thank our guests tonight, <inaudible> and Susan Conley. Plus our listeners who make this show possible without your support and donations Klei would not be possible. You can find more news and info about right on radio at <inaudible> dot org slash program slash right on radio. Plus listen to recent episodes on our recently launched podcast, which you can find on Spotify, iTunes, and anywhere podcasts can be found. Now stay tuned for a born shore, Minnesota.
