Speaker 1 00:00:35 You are listening to right on radio on k a i 90.3 FM and streaming on the
[email protected]. I'm Josh Weber. On tonight's program, Liz Olds talks with Michael Oren about his work, Swan's War with World War II Raging overseas and most able bodied male men away in the service. Mary Beth Swan is left in charge as police captain of the rugged New England fishing island fourth cliff. When a murder pow services in a fisherman's net fall by more bodies, Swan is determined to find the killer.
Speaker 2 00:01:07 Then in the last part of the hour, Josh talks with Alan Miller about his political thriller holding court. When a Supreme Court justice is kidnapped at terms end to keep him from being the critical deciding vote in a monumental environmental issue, a young reporter and his professor slash fiance lead readers through a dizzying series of events with suspects everywhere, all of this and more. So stay tuned to write on radio.
Speaker 1 00:01:53 Hello, Liz, are you there?
Speaker 3 00:01:55 Yeah. So I'm here.
Speaker 1 00:01:57 Hi. How you doing? Can you hear me? I can hear you just fine.
Speaker 3 00:02:00 Oh, great. I'm doing great.
Speaker 1 00:02:05 And Michael, can you hear us? I'm here. All right, great. You're on right on radio.
Speaker 4 00:02:10 Okay.
Speaker 3 00:02:10 Hi Michael.
Speaker 4 00:02:11 Hi, everybody.
Speaker 3 00:02:13 Welcome to Right on radio, right on radio joining evening.
Speaker 4 00:02:17 I'm delighting. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3 00:02:20 Why don't you start with the brief description of the book and dive right into your reading.
Speaker 4 00:02:25 Okay. We're ready to go.
Speaker 3 00:02:27 Yep, we're ready to go. Oh, you can dive right into your reading if you'd like.
Speaker 4 00:02:40 Okay.
Speaker 3 00:02:41 Yep.
Speaker 4 00:02:43 In the otherwise flat stretch of island between the town and the northern tip was a slightly depressed, somewhat moisture swath known as the Moors, non-descript scrubby. The area was best known for its saline soil inhospitable to all, but the most tenacious plants. Among them though was the broom crow Barry, a thorny with little to commend it. Most of the year, only in late March did it make its presence known, if not celebrated with reddish orange petals. Many two tiny for a distant eye to see the crowbar Herald did the spring. Stopping the coop on the roadside. Mary Beth got out and admired them. Though scarcely, flamboyant, these first flowers made her feel wistful. It brought her back to the early springs, her childhood with black snow still clogging the gutters and the branches bear, but the icicles dripping silver and the colors of old hopscotch courts resurrecting on the street.
Speaker 4 00:03:43 Such memories reminded her of her mother, urging her to go out and play winter's over. She announced with the fullness of her strength live, but life for her was ebbing already feverish with a swollen neck and a bark like cough. Colleen Boyle was exhibiting the disease that would swiftly kill her until her last breath. Though she remained indomitable. And in Mary Beth's mind a saint, while often strict with her eight year old daughter, she also adored her sewed and baked gingerbread for her, pampered her whenever her husband wasn't looking. Her mother smelled of cinnamon applesauce and bleach. Her hands were soft and unyielding. They had a lot in common. The boy girls, severe beauty, hearty hips and shoulders, the same stubborn streak and refusal to complain. Even in the face of anguish, her eyes like her daughters were emerald. And while her father scoffed at her desire to become a policewoman, her mother encouraged it.
Speaker 4 00:04:43 I can see you now, my little darling, with your badge and your cap. The guys, the bad guys will pick up and run. Mary Beth loved her mother, but for a long time hated her. Resented her for dying so young and leading her to be raised by an intolerant man and bittered and cold angry that made that, that she made her go out and play when the temperature was still freezing and snow clung to the gutters for wrapping her up in her coat hat and mittens, instead of embracing her and proms for her, that she'd always be there when she returned. Blue bells, kale shells, Mary bells recited out loud. Evie v over her shoes lifted up and down on the pavement. Mother went to market to buy some meat. Babies in the cradle, fast asleep. Yes, it would be warmer soon and all the flowers would blossom, but her world would remain wintry by the wind lash. Mos Mary Beth zipped up her jacket and clutched it, lapels to her throat. The crow berry could bloom and spring might come, But Archie had abandoned her just like her mother. She was alone again this time with a murderer on the loose and an island that wanted her gone through icy squares. It felt she was once against hop once again hopping and trying her best not to slip.
Speaker 3 00:06:03 That was Michael. Or reading a excerpt from his book, Swan's War. Uh, Mary Beth becomes an adult. And, uh, during World War ii, of course we know many women, women took over, uh, male, traditionally male jobs and responsibilities. We know Rosie the Riveter, for example. Uh, Mary Beth decides, uh, to take up her husband's police captain bars. And I'm wondering if you could explain, uh, why she does that and how she felt about it.
Speaker 4 00:06:34 Well, going back to 1940s, uh, there really weren't any police women. They were called, uh, women policemen, and they didn't carry guns, and they didn't walk beats. Uh, they were used mostly for getting prostitutes and urchins off the streets. Uh, but Mary Beth wanted to be a real police woman. Um, her father was a, is a policeman. Her grandfather, policeman, they, they scoffed to her too. Uh, and she meets, uh, Archie Swan, Archie Bald Swan, who is the captain of police of fourth Cliff Island, uh, 20 miles off the coast of Massachusetts. Uh, you won't find it on a map cuz I made up the island. It's an imaginary island, but it's great detail. And she moves to this island with her, with, with Archie. And there she's really an outsider. She's a an Irish woman from South Boston. And here she is with these rather crusty mariners, uh, who don't take very well to her, Not very, not very inviting.
Speaker 4 00:07:25 Uh, but then World War II breaks out, and Archie is a, a marine reserve officer, and he gets called into the South Pacific and leaves her in charge of the island. And there's no law other than Mary Beth Swan and which would be okay. But on the island, um, the US military has, has imprisoned 90 Italian prisoners of war. And this is actually true in World War ii, some 51,000 Italian prisoners of war were kept in the United States, kept separate from the Germans, by the way. And they're put to work because of the same labor shortage. Um, they worked in farming, they worked in fishing. Um, and Mary Beth maintains the, the peace as best she can, but then one after another, uh, these Italian prison of war, uh, show up murdered, show up dead. And so in addition to being alone, addition to being in that hostile environment, Mary Beth has to find a serial killer.
Speaker 3 00:08:16 And, um, many of the, well, the, the reaction to Mary Beth being the captain and taking up the captain's bars on the island ranges. She has one friend, but it ranges from, uh, uh, ambivalence to downright hostel. Yes. And I'm wondering how she copes with that, including, uh, in the situation where she's searching for a serial killer.
Speaker 4 00:08:43 Well, she, she is a, uh, she's a human being and she has her flaws. She has her insecurities. Um, she loves her husband very much, but she's also angry at him, uh, as a police officer. He didn't have to answer the call, uh, to fight in the war. He could have stayed at home. He doesn't, he felt duty bound to go off and be with his men in the Marines. Um, and she has to, There are times of great self doubt for, for Mary Bawan, uh, where she doesn't think that she could rise to the occasion. She asks herself all the time, What would Archie do? And she does have one friend, uh, the owner of a, of a local bar, a woman who also has a, an interesting life story and has to deal with constant opposition, uh, to her personality or her, her, her orientation. Um, and, and she, Mary Beth, comes to rely on many the owner of the bar. Um, it is not easy. It is. That's why it's called Swan's War. And because it's not only World War ii, but it's swan, it's Mary Best's personal war, uh, to succeed in this job as police captain in the fourth Cliff Island.
Speaker 3 00:09:49 Why did you decide to set it in an island in Massachusetts?
Speaker 4 00:09:53 I have no idea. <laugh>. It just occurred to be that way. Um, and I, and I made up the islands not a real island. Um, Right. And the book opens with the map of the island. So it's pretty detailed, uh, imagination. Um, I enjoyed it. I, I had spent some time, uh, in, in Nantucket, and the fourth cliff was referred to as a poor man's Nantucket. Uh, and I had a sense of the, the geography. I had a sense of the, the industry. Uh, one of the big industries on the island is cranberry farming. Uh, so I had to learn about cranberry farming. I had to learn about lobster fishing. Um, and, uh, it just, it, I think that it's, it's a dramatic setting. Um, going back in a, in a deep American tradition, you know, going back to Moby Dick, it's a very, it's a dramatic setting that maritime coast, very rugged, very cold, and it can be very lonely.
Speaker 3 00:10:46 What is it about World War II that, uh, that caused you to wanna write about it?
Speaker 4 00:10:51 Well, it's not the first time I've written about World War ii. It's, uh, my second novel that's set in World War II or about World War ii. My, my father was a, a decorated veteran, uh, fought from Normandy all the way through the war. Uh, he passed away last year. Uh, and he certainly left me with that legacy. I think World War ii, uh, for Americans, uh, hearkens back to a, a one time, a a simpler time where good was good, and evil was evil. The lines were clearly drawn. Um, but also time of hardship where people who were raised in a depression who were themselves, uh, rather tough had to deal with very difficult circumstances. So, Mary Beth, in addition to being alone, has to deal with rationing. Um, there's no coffee. Uh, there's very little sugar. Oh, dear. Um, there are people on the island whose, whose sons have, uh, been wounded or even killed in the war.
Speaker 4 00:11:38 Um, he has to deal with, uh, with bereavement. Um, and the constant, uh, tenture of not knowing what's happening is much it. There's a, a correspondence between Mary Beth and her husband Archie, who's fighting the Pacific, and he's fighting in these terrible jungles. And he writes her, uh, about what his life is like there. And she writes to him back. So the war is very much a presence in this book. It's on the radio all the time. Uh, there's news and people are either celebrating or mourning, uh, depending on what's happening on the battlefields overseas.
Speaker 3 00:12:09 It's like a character in the book, The War
Speaker 4 00:12:12 Of, very much so. Very much so.
Speaker 3 00:12:15 Um, are there any, uh, people in the book that are based on real people that you, uh, knew or know?
Speaker 4 00:12:22 Um, no. They, I mean, apart from President Roosevelt and j Edgar Hoover <laugh>, who don't appear the book, there's lots of references to them, uh, to mu Salini, certainly cuz some of the Italian prisons of war are still loyal to the fascists. And there's, there's, there's conflict within the President of War, Prisoner of war camp. But no, all the characters are completely fictitious. Um, and I, I'm not even quite sure where this novel came from. Just one day I looked up and, and there was Mary Beth Swan saying, You know, good to meet you. I'm your character.
Speaker 3 00:12:53 We're sticking with Michael or author of Swans War, a uh, book about a woman who becomes a police captain on an island. Um, how much research did you do? What kind of research did you do for the book?
Speaker 4 00:13:08 Well, I'm, I'm a history professor by training, and I've written a history book. So I was able to draw my, my historical research skills. So, for example, I had to know what people wore in the 1940s. I had to know, uh, how they spoke. Um, and language was, was pretty different. Um, and I would check every line. You honestly, I, I had one line where someone said, Game over. And I went and checked it in the dictionary and turned out game over. The first time was used in 1970. So that had to go. Um, I had to what people ate, what they didn't eat, uh, what they drove. I had to find about the, the intimate, intricate and inner workings of a 1941 Harley Davidson motorcycle. Um, serious research. Um, and I learned a lot. I really learned a lot. One of the things I learned was, you know, it's well known that, that the United States government, um, quite atrociously rounded up Japanese Americans and put them in, in, in basically kind of concentration camps during World War ii.
Speaker 4 00:14:09 It was not known to me that the, the government did the same thing. That thousands and thousands of Italian Americans mm-hmm. <affirmative> using the same presidential, um, uh, decree. That's an order. And it was kept secret for decades. It wasn't even until 2001 that this was made public. And many thousands of Italian Americans suffered under this order, uh, including Joe DiMaggio's parents. And, um, and this at a time when one out of every 10, uh, American gis was an Italian American, and, um, and that that oppression of Italian Americans during the, during the war, uh, becomes an important part in the book.
Speaker 3 00:14:48 Um, just curious, what is your, uh, history specialty? What, what is your, uh, main love?
Speaker 4 00:14:55 Uh, my, I do modern Middle Eastern history. I have a, a PhD in Middle Eastern history, and I've taught history. I've written about, um, the 1967, uh, Middle Eastern War. I've, I have a comprehensive history of America in the Middle East called power, faith, and fantasy. And for, um, for almost five years, starting in 2009, I served as Israel's ambassador to the United States of America. And I wrote about that as well.
Speaker 3 00:15:19 Uh, what does an ambassador do for those of us who are ignorant about that?
Speaker 4 00:15:23 Ah, an ambassador represents, uh, his government, uh, his government or her government to another government, to a foreign government. Um, in its case of the United States is representing, um, the counterparts to, uh, Congress. Uh, it's 530 members of Congress, uh, the entire administration, the Pentagon, the cia, Uh, but it's also far beyond government. It's representing peoples, um, and to various, uh, there was never a weekend where I wouldn't be in some church or synagogue. And, and being on the media, I've done all the major media shows that you know and love, uh, in the United States. Everything from, uh, Colbert to the View, uh, several times. Um, and, uh, and always out there, uh, representing and explaining and, um, and, and reaching out and making connections. It's very human
Speaker 3 00:16:12 Position. Um, fiction and non-fiction. You've written both. Uh, is there a one you prefer or is there a difference in your process? Or how does that work?
Speaker 4 00:16:22 It, well, certainly there's a difference in the process. I think they come from different parts of my brain, uh, and or different parts of my soul, if you will. Um, I started out as a poet, uh, at 12 years old. And I, uh, was proudly published my first poem at 14 and 17 Magazine, and went on to write, uh, plays and short stories. I, uh, this is my fifth work of fiction. Uh, and I've written, uh, collection two collections of short stories and, and three novels. Um, and so fiction, I, I adore it. It's much, it's much less labor-intensive, certain in history. And a history book will take about four or five years, and a novel will take a year. And, but in both cases, it, it, it's very deeply felt and it's very spiritual experience. I must tell you. Um, I scarcely remember writing these books when I'm finished, cuz it's almost like a trance.
Speaker 3 00:17:10 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, uh, are all your books, uh, fiction books mystery, besides the shortest stories? Are they all mysteries or,
Speaker 4 00:17:19 Well, this was my first who done it True. Who done it, and I must tell you who done it is, is one of the most difficult things I've ever had to write. Um, you gotta read your, your reader down all these different, you know, blind alleys and dead ends. And, and at the end of the book, uh, when the mystery resolve, the reader can't say, Oh, that's, you know, malarkey reader has to say, Ah, how come I didn't see that coming? And, and, and be a surprise at the same time. So in terms of just calibrating it and, and orchestrating, it's very difficult. Um, I often have written about crime, though. Uh, it has been pointed out to me. I didn't even notice this. People say, Hey, why are you always writing about crimes? Uh, my previous novel, uh, was centered around a murder wasn't much of a mystery, but it was a murder. Uh, many of my short fiction deals with various crimes. So that's something there that attracts me. I don't know what it is. I'm not sure I want to know.
Speaker 3 00:18:08 Uh, do you like reading mysteries and crime books? Or did it just, uh, appear from hol cloth?
Speaker 4 00:18:15 I listen, I love reading and I'm reading at any given time, I'm reading at least two books. And, uh, sometimes they're mysteries, sometimes they're not. And, uh, I think that writing this book has given me a very deep appreciation for the masters of Whodunits and mystery writers. Cause it is, it is quite, um, it's very challenging.
Speaker 3 00:18:35 Who are some of your influences in mystery?
Speaker 4 00:18:39 Well, in mystery, I, i just generally speaking, I, I love, uh, the great American writer, Ambrose Beers, um, who had a wonderful way of twisting endings. And, um, a very modern writer who wrote 150 years ago. It's, it's extraordinary to read him today. Um, I, um, I love Elizabeth Strout. Uh, she's not a mystery writer, but she writes about Maine and she writes about love. And I read every read I read every word she puts out. I think she's a magnificent writer. Um, so, uh, I deeply appreciate these authors and, uh, they've had a great influence on me.
Speaker 3 00:19:12 Let's talk little about your life as an ambassador. Um, I'm first curious as an ambassador, uh, how you feel about the war in Ukraine. What are we doing right, What we could do better in the United States?
Speaker 4 00:19:25 Well, my own government, the Israeli government came out as neutral early in the war. And I, I opposed it. I'm a frequent commentator in the news. Um, I was a, previously, I was the, uh, Middle East analyst for CBS News and for CNN News. So I'm, I'm on TV a lot, and I, I didn't like our neutrality. I thought it was strategically wrong, and I thought it was morally wrong. I think there's a country that Ukraine that's fighting for its liberty, a fellow democracy. And I think that all democracy had a stand, uh, four square behind, um, Ukraine. Um, I think that the, the American policy up to date has been very sound. It has been designed to deplete the Russian army, but not quite defeat the Russian army. And the big danger now is the Russian army might be defeated. And, um, I am concerned, I am concerned that, uh, if Mr. Putin please put into a corner, he's allowed to do something rather rash. And, um, it wouldn't be too premature to thinking about creative diplomacy, how this, uh, entire horrible war could be diffused.
Speaker 3 00:20:26 Um, what is the most intense thing that you have dealt with as an ambassador?
Speaker 4 00:20:32 Oh, I've dealt with Darius, uh, crises and wars. Um, um, I myself have spent many years in the military and have been in war several times. So it, uh, I know what it feels like to be on, um, both on the receiving end and the managing end, uh, of these conflicts. Um, and it was difficult. It was, uh, it's something very personal thing. Um, if there's a a a tourist who falls off a cliff, literally, um, and you have to break that news to a family, The ambassador has to do that too.
Speaker 3 00:21:06 Uh, what about Covid? How do you feel like, uh, again, the US is doing right and wrong, Israel is doing right, could do better. Uh, what, what do you think about the pandemic?
Speaker 4 00:21:16 I think that, uh, we have to go back and review some of the measures we'd adopted. Um, Israel was actually, uh, a world leader in lockdowns, and we were the first fully vaccinated, uh, country in the world. Um, in retrospect, I think that we have to go back and very closely examine whether those policies were were warranted.
Speaker 3 00:21:34 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, uh, another thing that, uh, um, I'm wondering about, we, uh, in the United States, we suffer from a lot of, uh, unfortunately, uh, mass shootings. And I'm wondering, uh, if you have ideas of you you're familiar with other countries and how they deal with it and what you think, uh, we could do again, better or differently or more like other countries.
Speaker 4 00:22:02 You, you're actually touching on one of the most difficult issues. I, I had to explain to my own, uh, my own my fellow countrymen and women, they would say to me, you know, if America has the, the biggest, most powerful army in the world, why do Americans need so many guns? And I'd have to explain to them that the minds of many Americans, they need those guns to protect them from the most powerful army in the world. That guns in America are related to freedom. Uh, that the Constitution and Israelis don't understand this. Most people in the world don't understand this. We have a very, we live in a war zone. Um, very, very few Israelis have guns. Less than 3% of the population. I've never owned a gun. Oh. And, um, so it, it's a, it's an alien notion for, for much of the world and difficult to explain. And frankly, I don't know how you, how you change it in the United States, Um, and how you would make it more difficult for people who are liable to open fire on a school or a shopping center to prevent them from getting those firearms.
Speaker 3 00:23:01 Yes, yes. Um, leaders in the world, who are some that you respect, uh, look up to?
Speaker 4 00:23:14 Well, I respect Mr. Zelensky. I think he's done an extraordinary job. A person who came out of, you know, a comedy show about, about prime, about presidency. He ends up being, uh, quite an historical figure, uh, and rising to the occasion. Um, very, very impressive. Um, so he is certainly a leader. I, because I've, I've had the privilege of working with great leaders. Um, not all of them I agreed with, but they were certainly extraordinary individuals. Everyone from Barack Obama to, uh, Shimon per, um, uh, Benjamin is now who looks like he's been reelected now, uh, the longest serving, uh, prime Minister in Israel's history. Um, uh, European leaders, uh, uh, pretty much, uh, pretty much met 'em all <laugh> in my career. Uh, and you, you get to appreciate what it means to, to be a leader, what kind of qualities you need. You have to be a great communicator. You have to be a great politician. Cause you're not great politician. You're not gonna be a great leader. You won't be reelected. And, uh, you have to be a great decision maker. And in many ways, that's the hardest thing, um, is to make decisions. And so, so, so frequently there's never a good decision. There's only a less bad decision. And, uh, I say over and over again, it's a less bad decision and having to make that as a very lonely task.
Speaker 3 00:24:32 We're coming up on our elections, uh, next week. Uh, very important midterm elections. Uh, what can you say about elections? Uh,
Speaker 4 00:24:44 Well, first of fact, the fact that elections are taking place, Democra is under duress throughout much of the world. And, and, uh, we thought, you know, with the fall of the Soviet Union that, uh, back in 1989, that that was it. That the liberal democracy had won out, and now we see a resurgence, uh, going a different way. So if, let's take a moment to appreciate the fact that even these, that the elections are even taking place. Yes. Um, I'm concerned without getting involved in internal American politics, I'm concerned about the fundamental, say, the foundations of democracy, Uh, which include among other things, um, a loyal minority, uh, when, you know, a party loses election and has to be able to say to the other party, Okay, we lost, but you're the senator, you're the congressman, you're Mr. President, uh, and we will be loyal to that person. Um, if you lose that, you've really lost a very foundational element of, of democracy, very difficult. Um, and, uh, the world looks to the United States, um, still very much looks to the United States as an example. So some of the trends in this country are, are for me, very, um, disconcerting. And I hope that, uh, America will discover, uh, some element of unity again, cuz the, the polarization has been very extreme.
Speaker 3 00:25:52 Yes, yes, I agree. And I think, uh, I suppose you would agree that it's very important to get out no matter what your personal beliefs are, to get out and, and do that.
Speaker 4 00:26:03 Yeah. Israel, Israel has one of the, has one of, if not the highest, one of the highest rates of, of voter participation. Um, oh, there was election called this morning and it was, uh, the highest level voter, uh, participation in, in over two decades.
Speaker 3 00:26:19 Well, what did you like most about being an ambassador?
Speaker 4 00:26:23 I loved, I loved the interaction with, with communities. Um, and I mentioned my father had fought in World War ii, and I had a strong connection with the US military. Um, I visited all the academies, I visited major bases, uh, and I enjoyed interacting with the military. I avoid, you know, I enjoyed going to churches. Uh, I enjoyed, uh, dealing with the, the great kaleidoscope of American society. Um, you, you, many people today see it as a, as a point of divisiveness. But when I saw it was all just richness. And it was, it was fascinating, endlessly fascinating. Um, uh, as Israeli ambassador, I also had, um, a very interesting interaction with the American Muslim community.
Speaker 3 00:27:05 Hmm.
Speaker 4 00:27:06 Yeah. I actually instituted, you know what, I dunno if you know what an Iftar is. Iftar is the, the feast during that holy month of Ramadan that you break the fast. And I instituted a a a, an Israeli Iftar, uh, which is still being held. And, um, in anyways, kind of my proudest achievement. And that involved interacting, uh, with American Muslim leaders. And it, it, these people don't agree with you, I understand this, but you can interact on the level of common faith, common, uh, respect, uh, common humanity,
Speaker 3 00:27:37 Kind of a decent, uh, uh, disagree or decent, uh, uh, knowledge of new, uh, things that are new to you.
Speaker 4 00:27:47 Uh, true. I mean, I had studied, I had studied Islamic history and, um, and had read the Quran, I, I studied Arabic for years. So I, I had a basis for understanding, But that doesn't mean we agreed, um, politically we didn't, uh, on many issues. Um, on some we did. We, um, I mean the, there have been a piece accords, uh, made the no East Abraham Accords. And much of those accords were animated by common threats, and particularly the threat, uh, of Iran.
Speaker 3 00:28:17 We've been speaking with Michael Oren, author of Swan's War. Uh, When is this coming out or has it already? It is out.
Speaker 4 00:28:25 It is out. It is out in the bookstores. It, um, and, uh, the, like I said, the review's been very, very good. Can't complain about the reviews and, um, I hope the people enjoy it. It is, I will say, honestly, as objectively as I can, it's, it is a, a fun and engaging read. And I think that Mary Best Swan is a multifaceted and very real protagonist.
Speaker 3 00:28:47 Yeah. She's a great character. I really enjoyed the book. Uh, what's next for you? What are you working on now?
Speaker 4 00:28:54 I'm cleaning my second collection of short stories. My last one was called The Night Archer, which is 51 Stories, which are very, very different. I don't have a title yet for my next collection. I'm finishing up a nonfiction book, which were coming out in, uh, next April, Uh, which deals with the, what Israel should look like on its hundredth birthday, which will be in 2048. Uh, very policy driven. Um, and ultimately I have a, a contract with Random House to write a, a book about, uh, the founding of Israel in 1948.
Speaker 3 00:29:27 Okay. Well, uh, that's about all we have here. I really enjoyed talking to you. Again, this has been Michael, or author of Swan's War, a uh, novel about a woman who takes on the captaincy of the police, uh, on a small island. And, uh, it, uh, it is very, very interesting. And so, uh, thank you very much. It's been wonderful talking to you.
Speaker 4 00:29:54 Delightful talking to you as well. Thank you for hosting
Speaker 3 00:29:56 Me. Great. Great. Thank you. I'm gonna turn it back over to Josh now if he's there.
Speaker 4 00:30:02 Bye
Speaker 3 00:30:04 Bye. Bye.
Speaker 1 00:30:21 Alan, I can hear you
Speaker 6 00:30:22 Okay.
Speaker 1 00:30:23 Turn me your VO a little bit, but otherwise I'm glad to have you here.
Speaker 6 00:30:29 Well, I'm here.
Speaker 1 00:30:33 Okay, Alan, we are on the, we're on air right now for right on radio. If you have your first reading, you are welcome to start any time.
Speaker 6 00:30:44 No intro, huh?
Speaker 1 00:30:45 Well, I will give you your intro.
Speaker 6 00:30:48 All right, I'm ready.
Speaker 1 00:30:50 Okay, go ahead for your reading.
Speaker 6 00:30:55 This book is about the kidnapping of a Supreme Court justice. And, uh, among the main characters, probably the leading protagonist are a young reporter from the Washington Post, uh, named Mort Aarons and his fiance, who used to be a law clerk to the Justice. And her name is Danny Rose. So when the Justice disappears, Ward is sitting at his desk when he gets a call. Mort was at his desk in the Washington Post newsroom when his cell phone sounded with the distinctive ringtone, the cavalry charge. His cubicle was one of many in the newspaper's bullpen. His personal cell phone stashed in the pocket of his jacket, which was draped over the back of his chair, was strictly for calls from Danny family members and close friends. His work mobile sat on the desk next to an old fashioned land long line. He reached back, dug out his personal phone and looked at the screen. Danny Mor was not a Robert Redford alike, at least not the Redford from all the president's men. He was more of a Mr average five eight with unkempt sandy hair, large tor tor a shell glasses, a rumble blue shirt with sleeves rolled up, and a fashion noble unintentional one day growth beard all around him. Other Washington Post reporters were hunched over their computers, chatting on their phones or staring off while obstacles to completing their current mission.
Speaker 6 00:32:49 Very good. We'll, now talk about, uh, what she said to him, what JJ is missing. She said a voice and oc higher than usual. What do you mean missing? He didn't show up in court this morning. He'd never miss a day, especially now, I just got a call from Lucie, his law clerk, who had called the house and spoken with Lupe. JJ left as usual this morning. She checked the garage, he left on the Harley, but he never got to the court. What could have happened? Well, Mort was then very concerned about what could have happened. And we'll jump ahead of you pages
Speaker 6 00:33:38 And we'll talk about the fact that he was a little upset because he was the fourth call that, uh, Danny had made, and he wondered just where he was on the priority list. But he decided to meet her in Gaithersburg at the Montgomery County, a police headquarters where their friend was the chief of the Montgomery County Police, as drove toward Gaithersburg to meet with Danny, with Travis and whoever else they gathered. He felt some of his usual guilt. His agreement to JJ J's plan for an engagement ring was undoubtedly the cause of JJs disappearance. And it was happening when Travis was consumed with a triple murder case. He called Danny on his cell phone. She answered, Doesn't Travis have enough to do with the triple killing war? Asked Danny Snapped back a Supreme Court justice disappears on his watch, practically family to boot. He's got a whole department to solve that case.
Speaker 6 00:34:41 JJ is special. Mort didn't mention anything about the availability of the Supreme Court police, the capital police, the US Marshals, the secret service of the fbi. Danny and JJ had a special bond between them ever since she'd clerked for him, then moved into his home to show him to court after he had broken his ankle. That and the fact that her mother and JJ were now a couple mort's cell phone rang and he saw the call coming from the Washington Post. Aarons. He said, Aarons Ginsburg here. Where are you right now? Mort almost crashed the car. Steven Ginsburg was the managing editor of the Washington Post. They had never actually met, except the day Ginsburg was given an introduction. Pep talk to the staff after he was named to his physician.
Speaker 6 00:35:37 Mr. Ginsburg? Yes. Where are you? They tell me that you have some sort of special relationship with Justice Ricker, correct? Yes, through my fiance. She used to be his law clerk. I was with him last evening, in fact, last evening. Well, where the hell is he today? We got a tip that he's missing. What was now in a state of panic, The word was out suddenly he had to pee. He didn't say anything. Aarons, are you still there? Ginsburg ass? Yes, sir. Well drop whatever you're doing and find him. I want you on this story. Capish. Yes, sir. I'm on it. And, uh, it's Steven. We're not in the goddamn army. I want you to report directly to me. Yes, sir. Uh, Steven. I got it. I'm on it. Mor made a U-turn and headed back toward dc He called Danny again, got her voicemail and left a somewhat incoherent message. And that's a bit of a reading.
Speaker 1 00:36:39 Very good. That was award-winning author and media personality. Alan Miller is a background in law teaching in colleges, universities, law schools, served in government and has been published nationally and internationally. He resides in Minnesota with his wife Sharon and Springer Rescue Katie. His first novel is Holding Court, a political thriller in the vain of a John Gresham novel. That's action. An action packed adventure, which includes drones, illegal surveillance, eavesdropping, high tech weaponry, spying, ransom, and a cast iron frying pan, which becomes a weapon. Alan Miller, welcome to Write On Radio.
Speaker 6 00:37:16 Well, thank you very much. Glad to be with you,
Speaker 1 00:37:18 Josh. So Alan, the, the one thing I didn't mention in your bio is that you have a background in screenwriting. I was curious about, did screenwriting prepare you for the writing process of a novel?
Speaker 6 00:37:30 Uh, I don't think actually screenwriting per se did. It certainly was very helpful, but, uh, not in terms of novel writing. It's, it's so different than writing a novel. Writing a novel is so different than anything I have done. I've written a couple of nonfiction books, but writing a novel is an exercise in and of itself.
Speaker 1 00:37:51 How's it different?
Speaker 6 00:37:53 Well, uh, screenwriting, you are pretty much stuck with a formula and you have to live within that formula with writing a novel. You create the formula. And, uh, that's what I did in this one. And I also had help from some really good writers who looked at my earlier drafts and tore me to shreds, uh, which helped me turn out to be what is a very well reviewed book.
Speaker 1 00:38:24 Something that I really like that you do well in this novel is you manage to balance multiple perspectives. We see the kidnappers, we see from Jay's point of view, we see from Danny and Martz. And you do this with ease, really, throughout the, throughout the novel. And was that something, a tip that the authors you worked with helped you, um,
Speaker 6 00:38:44 Develop? Unquestionably. Unquestionably, that helped me. Okay. Also, it, it's just the way that I write. I, I don't like to write from one perspective. I like to put yourself in the mind of several people and see what they're going through, uh, to get, to reach our conclusion.
Speaker 1 00:39:06 Can you, I think you have a very interesting background. I do want to talk about the book, but one thing I did want you to share with our listeners is a quick story about your screenwriting past. You had screenplay that was made into a Hollywood film, but you did not get screenwriting credit for. Could you talk about what that movie was and how you found this out?
Speaker 6 00:39:25 Well, you're talking about seven days, six nights. Yeah. And I had written it about four days before, uh, four years before it, uh, appeared on screen. And I was actually in the theater because I was a Harrison Ford fan and I liked his movies. And all of a sudden I see this movie on screen, uh, and I turned to my wife and I said, Damnit <laugh>, that's my movie. And it was, it was my movie with a couple of changes in it. Um, but it, it was on this chapter and verse what I had written. And, uh, to say that was infuriating is an understatement.
Speaker 1 00:40:04 Did you sit through the whole movie then? What did you do?
Speaker 6 00:40:07 Oh, absolutely. I wasn't
Speaker 8 00:40:09 Gonna <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:40:12 Oh, that's, that's crazy. Um, Alan, I have my notes here. Correct me if I'm wrong. You're 88 years old, is that right?
Speaker 6 00:40:20 That's what it says in your notes. So it must be right.
Speaker 8 00:40:23 <laugh>,
Speaker 1 00:40:24 You're above 30 is what I actually have my notes, but I was, I am
Speaker 6 00:40:27 Above 30.
Speaker 1 00:40:28 You're above 30. So
Speaker 6 00:40:29 I'm above, I am above 30 doubled. And I'm almost close to 30, tripled
Speaker 1 00:40:34 <laugh>. The reason I'm saying this, I mean, I don't, I hope you're not shy about your age, but I wanna talk about it cuz you are proof that there is not a point in a person's life where you cannot start something new or interesting or write your first novel. And how long did it take for you to work on this prior to its publication?
Speaker 6 00:40:52 Well, actually I had the original idea of the judge being kidnapped about a decade ago. And at that time I was looking at fracking. I was trying to keep something topical. Well, fracking came and went, even though it's still with us. So I switched to wind and solar, uh, in terms of making, uh, the subject, uh, in this book, of course, the, uh, question is water. And I was kind of prescient about two, three years ago. I said, water is gonna be the next thing that the world is going to be going to war over and fighting over. So I focused the book on that and, uh, the fight that ended up in the Supreme Court and there we are.
Speaker 1 00:41:40 What advice would you give to someone who's struggling to finish finishing their novel?
Speaker 6 00:41:48 Uh, well, you know, it's interesting because I, I am working on the second volume right now, and yesterday was not a good day, but I wrote, and today when I came back, I destroyed everything that I wrote yesterday. Uh, and what you have to do, you have to be persistent. You have to really put your mind to it. You have to. And it was very difficult for me in the beginning to destroy my own words. It's like shooting your children, you know, because when they, when they come out of your fingertips onto the computer, uh, you think, Well, this is definitely an Academy Award. This is definitely a Nobel Prize. This is definitely a best book. And then when you look at it later, you realize this was not any of the above.
Speaker 1 00:42:43 So it's true then to say that writing a novel is really a, an exercise and just revision and doing it over again and again to eventually it's the best thing it could be.
Speaker 6 00:42:53 Absolutely. It went through many drafts. Uh, it went through, uh, numerous critiques and of course I gave readings out to a lot of people, uh, to be able to look at it and, uh, to give me advice. In the end, it falls down to the writer and you've gotta make the decisions. Uh, several times I was, uh, told by, uh, really good writers that, uh, this doesn't work and that doesn't work. And to me, they worked and I left them in and I think it was good that I did. So you've gotta be strong enough to, uh, also make your own decisions.
Speaker 1 00:43:35 Let's get to the,
Speaker 6 00:43:36 With the camera sense. You can't be sensitive about
Speaker 1 00:43:38 It. Yeah. Let's get to the meat of this book. Um, you dedicate this book to those who treasure our constitution and Bill of Rights and who are willing to fight to maintain it in the last six years. I mean, there's plenty of moments you could point to where you could see our constitution and our rights or maybe under attack. I was curious though, if there was a, a particular event that you were thinking about when you wrote this dedication.
Speaker 6 00:44:05 Well, probably January 6th was more in my mind, uh, than anything. Although I think that this year's off presidential election is probably as important as any election that we've ever had because, uh, the crazies are coming out of the woodwork. And if we really treasure our democracy and if we really believe in the Bill of Rights, uh, we need people who are going to protect it.
Speaker 1 00:44:33 You waste no time at all. I think it's, if I, I should look it again, but it's in the first few pages we get really into the action of our novel. Of your novel right away, Supreme, Supreme Court Justice JJ Richter, he's involved in a, in a high profile ecological case and is kidnapped. Did you do any research on what would happen if a real life incident like this would occur?
Speaker 6 00:44:59 I did tons of research.
Speaker 1 00:45:01 Oh,
Speaker 6 00:45:02 I was doing research constantly. And, uh, that's one of the things that my law training was very helpful in, uh, because you have to be accurate and this was accurate. Uh, streets are accurate, places are accurate, actions are accurate, um, automobiles are accurate. Whatever it was, I researched it. And, uh, I pride myself on the fact that we've had no cri criticism at all about the accuracy of anything.
Speaker 1 00:45:35 I'm not criticizing the accuracy, but I do want to ask you about one of these pieces you do bring up in the book. You say that in, it's a tradition within the Supreme Court to decide all cases on the docket by the end of the term. And if a judge has missing in real life, they still will go. They they will not adjourn it. Is that really true? Do you think that would really happen? Absolutely.
Speaker 6 00:45:54 Really absolutely true. Uh, a judge to the Supreme Court has to be approved by the appointed by the president, approved by the Senate. Right. And if a judge is missing, and it's happened on several occasions, judges have been sick. Uh, the judge, uh, I think it was Kennedy, fell off his bike and, and was out for a couple of weeks, uh, and missed the arguments those judges have to be approved, therefore it would be an eight vote. And that was the whole focus of, of this, uh, book. Because if JJ is missing, uh, they go ahead with eight votes and he was the swing vote and that really became the focal point, uh, and made everything easier.
Speaker 1 00:46:40 JJ Richter, you describe as a liberal curmudgeon, how much of a Miller is in jj?
Speaker 6 00:46:46 JJ is a man after my own heart,
Speaker 1 00:46:48 <laugh>. I know that. I could tell that right away by reading it. <laugh>. Um, you also mentioned there's a bit of you and Mort as well, I think when we talked briefly. How so?
Speaker 6 00:47:02 Well, I went to, uh, undergraduate and law school at Syracuse and I used that for the background of both. Uh, who comes from Harrisburg. I once lived in Harrisburg. Uh, and, uh, Danny, who is a graduate of the law school and all of that, and Syracuse. And, uh, the memories that were conjured up of it, uh, were very important to me. They still are. And, uh, I, I guess I will bleed orange for the rest of my life because Syracuse is the orange. Well, they used to be the orange men, now they're just the orange.
Speaker 1 00:47:42 I didn't realize your background, you went to Syracuse until I was reading the section where she's talking to JJ Richter when she wants a clerk for him. And then I happen to come across your LinkedIn profile. And I saw that and I'm like, ah, I know where, where Danny comes from was there.
Speaker 6 00:48:00 That's where Alan came from.
Speaker 1 00:48:02 <laugh>. That's where Alan came from. I have a fun little question for you. So, um, was there any reason you chose to have the assailants, the people at the very beginning, the kidnappers to have an Obama mask and a Reagan mask? Was that a conscious decision? Cause I thought was funny as a raider to have two presidents from two very different eras with two very different political ideologies as the people that kidnapped Richter.
Speaker 6 00:48:26 It was a conscious decision, really. Okay. Because I didn't wanna make it, uh, overly political one way or the other because it wasn't. So they went into a store and they picked masks and they put those masks on. Uh, and that's how they hid themselves.
Speaker 1 00:48:47 What, what kept my interest in reading your novel was trying to make sense of the motivation and even the identity of the kidnappers was agreed. Was it really about the big water energy Supreme Court case? Was there a grudge involved against Richter in some past case? Was it an energy company that was working in the background? I'm wondering, you mentioned before how with, with it's, you kind of develop the form as you're moving into the novel as you're writing it. And did you decide early on the details of the kidnapping why they did what they did? Or was this something you discovered as you were writing the novel?
Speaker 6 00:49:26 Well, without giving the whole book away, the kidnappers are, uh, 10 million a piece. If they can kidnap JJ and keep him safe for two weeks, uh, it wasn't the intention to kill him. Uh, and if he had been killed, they would've blown their whole contract with the ultimate, uh, uh, instigators of the kidnapping. So that, uh, yes, uh, that was a very conscious decision.
Speaker 1 00:50:00 You described the President Chester as trending towards obesity and not very bright. He's also a war hero, was a farmer and darling of the emerging right wing party. You could have done any, any easy character of someone on the right. Trump comes to mind, but instead you chose to make an original character. I was wondering if you could talk about why.
Speaker 6 00:50:21 And again, that was a conscious decision because I didn't want it to be just, uh, everybody picturing Donald Trump, uh, for whom I have absolutely no regard. Uh, but uh, that's the political side of me. That's not the writer's side of me. So I wanted it to be, uh, consistent with the story. A rightwinger but not someone who was off the wall, a rightwinger who still knew how to do the right thing when it came to doing that.
Speaker 1 00:50:57 Is this true Helen? We used
Speaker 6 00:50:58 To have, we used to have some of those,
Speaker 1 00:50:59 Yeah, we did. Cause I actually found myself in moments admiring Chester and admiring the integrity. You'd have moments of making very difficult decisions. So you won me over with him.
Speaker 6 00:51:11 Well, good. I would've voted for him against a lot of people, certainly against Trump.
Speaker 1 00:51:18 And then, is this true Allen, I think you mentioned a passings. You're in contact with someone, the Hollywood right now, about adapting this book into a film?
Speaker 6 00:51:26 Well, we have somebody looking at it and you know, I, I was teaching screenwriting and involved with the screen long enough to know that having somebody looking at it and saying, Yes, I'm going to, uh, uh, put something together and having it actually come to fruition is, uh, generally whistling in the dark. But in this case, uh, they found a money man who is willing to finance it and whether we can get it beyond that, I don't know.
Speaker 1 00:52:03 And my last question for you, you mentioned before you are working again on another novel. Is it gonna be a follow up to hold in court? Is something else completely different? What is that like?
Speaker 6 00:52:16 It's involving the same main characters, uh, with new adventures.
Speaker 1 00:52:23 Very good. This will be my time talking with Alan Miller about his new novel Holden Court. Alan, thanks so much for being on our show.
Speaker 6 00:52:31 Josh, I thank you very much.
Speaker 1 00:52:34 And now this you're listening to Right On Radio on Kfa I 90.3 FM and streaming live on the
[email protected]. I'm Josh Weber. I'd like to thank our special guest tonight, Michael or and Alan Miller and all our listeners, that your support and donations KFI would not be possible. You can find more news and info about right on radio at kfi.org/right on radio. You can listen to all of your favorite right on radio episodes on Spotify, iTunes, Google Podcast, App, Podcast, and so on. Now. Please stay tuned for Bonjour, Minnesota.
