Speaker 1 00:00:18 You are listened to right on radio on cafe 90.3 FM and streaming live on the
[email protected]. I'm Liz Alz. Tonight on right on radio, I will be talking with Chris McKinney about his novel been night water city, the first entry and a brilliant new Saifai trilogy that explores the complex paths of a murdered scientist deified in death through the eyes of a man who wants committed unspeakable crimes for her McKenny is an American writer born and raised in Hawaii. He has written six other novels in the last part of the show. Josh talks with David vine about his work, the United States of war, a provocative examination of how the us military has shaped our entire world from today's costly, endless wars to the prominence of violence and everyday American life. David vine is professor of political anthropology at American university in Washington, DC, all of this and more so stay tuned to write on radio. Chris, are you there? Great. Welcome to write on radio. Thanks for spending some of your time with us.
Speaker 2 00:01:42 Thank you very much for
Speaker 1 00:01:43 Having grit. You bet you want to start with a little description of the book and the reading that we have prepared.
Speaker 2 00:01:50 Sure. Um, so the new book has been lightwater city and, um, it's pretty much, I mean, I guess you could say that it's, it's pretty much starts off as a standard murder mystery, but it's set in the year 2142. Uh, basically a body is discovered and, uh, it's the body of a deified scientists who 40 years before was credited with saving humanity. Um, structurally structurally the book is a who done it, uh, that also forces the narrator to take a hard look at his own past, um, setting wise it's speculative fiction. Uh, instead of coming in space, I imagine a future where we build under the ocean, um, some major technological advancements besides the underwater cities includes those, uh, something called an IEE, which is basically a smartphone that we're connected to neurologically. And it's a small drone like floating orb. And another piece of technology is what's called the amp chamber, which extends lifespan through a hibernation technology of the world, the state of the world in 2142. Um, the world is scarred by climate change and other catastrophes, uh, and it's an equal, friendly place with some dystopia and undertones.
Speaker 2 00:03:18 So as far as the reading, um, I'll, I'll, I'll read a passage that sort of, uh, more specifically describes this world. And it's at the beginning of chapter six. So it's, uh, close to the beginning of the novel on mental start now for the, for the most part, the only people allowed to live on the south and east sides of the island are subsidized, present reservation workers who spend their days planting and caring for indigenous species or eradicating invasive ones. They're all Neo hippies required to live in primitive huts and tree houses designed to not ruin the natural aesthetic of the island. They live under rules, kind of like tongue associations back in the day, they also run the theme park millions of tourists flock to while they're here on their pilgrimage to pay reverence from the side of the mountain, the Akira is tell us telescope nicknamed the saviors I, its construction was a deal brokered by a Kira.
Speaker 2 00:04:23 Maybe she'd chosen that spot for its clarity and viewing the stars, or maybe she chose. She chosen a spot that high up so she could limit access to her telescope. And to her, I was never sure most of us, the less than don't live on the island or on the little floors of the new C scrapers and the high floors of old skyscrapers. We live in the float burbs clusters of Dolan pound townhouses that Bob on the ocean surface and the two stories underwater from above, they looked like sinking flowers. The townhouses are magnetically more than far enough from the shore that they aren't nice or most government workers, plastic, skimmers, trade people, coral gardeners, small business owners and resort and theme park, middle management. We live on means just enough to enable us to do nothing. After we put in our 40 hours, maybe we can afford a once a month trip to the amp clinic.
Speaker 2 00:05:21 Maybe we save and purchase a week long family tour of Epcot or lucky cat city. Once a year, maybe we collect enough social security to experience a Monday in retirement. After 80 octogenarian boredom on a budget or OPB as we call it. It's not great, but it's better than living on the continent. 300 million surrounding the quad state greatly changed the biggest landfill in the history of man penicillin rivers, running like veins from Missouri to the Nashville dam. We pretty much gave up on trying to clean that up. I figured it was easier to just come out here and start a vertical expansion.
Speaker 2 00:05:59 I'm hovering home through the satin gunmetal sky. I've just quit my job. I'm still reeling. I realized I forgot to take my insomnia and anxiety inhibitors. I have access to the kind of person I've only supposed to take for space. Like I've been doubled dosing every day before I get home. Second dose, the second dose curves my anxiety about taking too many anxiety pills. A trip around the world would be a trip would be nice right about now not a once a week quickie family package, but maybe a long solo tour of something far away from the ocean, like pitching in a hand to replant Yosemite national debt. I saw I haven't volunteered for anything my entire life except war besides I couldn't keep a Fern alive in a rain forest. It's too late for me now. Anyway, I dock my seal and step onto the Wharf.
Speaker 2 00:06:53 I walked toward my unit across planks that light up as I go, the sun is setting and a man about a hundred years old, a retired cryptocurrency assistant to some VP is fishing in front of his slip, Michigan water, too deep to bring up anything with that pathetic school of line. And he looked Fred. I asked, cause I walked by not yet. He says legs dangling over the edge has short legged plaid foam fit, humming cool air onto his skin while drip, sweat drips down his face. Not ever. I think for a guy, I pass him and he has a blaring of a neighbor's IEE projection, probably a classic movie from outside. It sounds like the kind of entertainment geared towards an old man. The main character of the program and elderly bad-ass with the old romantic entanglements, just a retired guy on a mission using his skills to help other people sits said the skills usually involve a remarkable proficiency.
Speaker 2 00:07:46 The bloody his hands to kind of show for a man whose capacity to dream is the only thing lower than his T levels. I pass a unit and begrudgingly headquartered mine. Two units down a group of teams on the same color Catonsville, probably red, because except for their outlines, I can't see them. Well. The fact that they're half naked and not set up like it's Halloween, doesn't help how the kids do nowadays trying to collectively express their individuality Harris Mart gel itself into fins, flower, pedals, and snakes. They ignore me as I approach, ignore everything outside of themselves, really whispering empty secrets and doing everything else. Teams have always done like talking about how I've done the world is even though they haven't really had to look at it yet. If anyone on does the work of a Kira, it will be this generation too young to remember ask Alon to appreciate being alive. I pass them practically a ghost in their eyes and stand before my front door, the plants plant lights under me. Oh, I'm sorry. The plank light under me. It was on the Fritz again. I regret not taking my astronaut great anxiety and anxiety and insomnia pills for all. I know the chief might've pinged Sabrina and told her that I quit.
Speaker 1 00:09:05 All right. We are speaking with Chris McKinney, author of midnight water city. Uh, that was a reading from the book. Uh, well, let's start with the question that I'm curious about, uh, every blurb and review that I have read indicates or suggests that you were, uh, uh, influenced by Philip K Dick and do Androids dream of electric sheep and blade runner into the movie that was, uh, uh, caused by that. And Isaac Asimov. I'm wondering how you feel about these, uh, comparisons and, uh, if you feel they're accurate in the influences that you've had,
Speaker 2 00:09:51 Um, I would say I've had any, any comparison without the, I mean, it's flattering, if anything, um, as far as directly influencing me, I mean, I, um, maybe a little bit, uh, I, I will admit that, uh, I loved blade, uh, blade runner as a kid. Um, but it wasn't, it wasn't conscious. It wasn't, uh, you know, it wasn't sort of, it wasn't, I wasn't dwelling on it while I was writing the book. Um, the, and the fact that the there's Japanese aspects of Japanese culture, um, infused in the book is not a blade runner thing. It's a I'm part Japanese thing. So, you know, and especially, you know, when you're, you're, you know, you're, you have Japanese heritage and you live in, you were born and raised in a boy, you know, I mean, Japanese stuff is all around you, your entire life, because there's still just so many people have a job. I needed the scent on this island. Um, so yeah, so I would say that, that aspect, I can see how those comparisons can be made blade runner. Isn't the reason why I love blade runner blade runner. Isn't the reason why that stuff exists in this book.
Speaker 1 00:11:08 Um, the noir aspect is it's very interesting. So a lot of science fiction is not really nor this. I consider to be science fiction Maher. And I'm wondering what your ideas were around that if you really wanted it to be as, as, nor as it is, or if it just came out that way, when you were writing it, uh, uh, what's up with that.
Speaker 2 00:11:37 Um, I think you don't because, because I've, I've never, this is my first attempt at speculative fiction. Um, I felt like I needed certain things to tether me to, you know, what used to just a couple of things. And one was the ocean, you know, I grew up around the ocean and the ocean. So, you know, I'm very comfortable with that. Another thing is in the war. So in some of my previous books, I, I, I it's, it's sort of what I would consider, um, my, my genre, but it's, you know, but you know, some of my other books are basically ignore fiction set in a whole lot year. So I feel comfortable with Anwaar feel comfortable with ocean. And, um, uh, like I mentioned before, that that's sort of, I mean, I needed those tethers in order to feel comfortable pursuing this thing that I've never tried to do before.
Speaker 1 00:12:34 Well, you certainly have created a fascinating culture and a fascinating story about, uh, a lot about water and about the ocean and about, uh, another thing that I noticed was, uh, is kind of under the surface, but the whole thing about a pass of climate change and with our situation with climate change right now, I'm wondering if you could sort of compare and contrast what is really going on now and what happened in your culture that you have created.
Speaker 2 00:13:05 Yeah, well, it's, it's sort of, it's sort of interesting because, you know, when I was creating, you know, doing the world building, uh, one thing that I went into eight con, the idea that I, I consciously kept repeating in my head is that, remember that, um, predicting, I mean, the future is unpredictable experts, um, wildly, wildly, big, big wild blue states when, when they try to predict what the world will look like 20 years from now, 50 years from now a hundred years from now. So I wanted to, I didn't want what's happening with climate change to be that linear and predictable. Um, some of it, yeah, but what actually, um, you know, there's other catastrophes that, that are possible. So in this novel, one, one thing that happens is a, is a sun flare that knots electricity I'll, uh, w you know, global on a global scale, but the climate crisis is there's definitely that aspect and that this book, um, I think that a lot of people rightfully fear what will happen as, you know, sea levels rise, um, on like an island that I live on or in coastal areas.
Speaker 2 00:14:31 Um, in this book, I actually sort of flip it and said that, um, a lot of the bad stuff that can happen through climate change can actually happen in the interior of continents too. So that's what, um, that's what I tried to create with the great McShane, which is basically, if you could imagine that, you know, this landfill polluted landfill in the middle of the continental, in the middle of continental north America. Um, so it's just sort of like trying to, you know, going into it, realizing that you can predict the future. So maybe don't, you know, do something different anticipate or guests at something different than an expert's would. Um, and then you might have a better chance of actually of actually, uh, nailing it.
Speaker 1 00:15:21 Yeah. I, uh, I live in Minnesota and I was appalled at the concept of garbage all over in the Midwest. I was like, oh, that could happen. I thought to myself, you know, I mean, we have these, um, ideas that we think are going to happen and, uh, they may not be the things that happened at all, you know, garbage in the Midwest. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:15:44 Yeah. I think it's like, uh, it's like the sequence, right. It's sorta like, you know, we can, we can maybe predict all of the troubling things that can occur, um, through the course of this crisis, but we, we don't necessarily can, we can't necessarily predict a sequence of what happens first, what happens next? The one thing that I will say that I wrote this thing actually before the pandemic, but even, even then I was thinking about the idea that isn't it just human nature to like, do something either at the Nick of time or when it's already too late. You know what I mean? So it's sort of like I created this world that has felt the effects of global warming, but, um, because once it sort of hit the world, then they started trying to do something about it. So it's a scarred world, but it's not an apocalyptic world.
Speaker 1 00:16:39 Talk some about your, uh, concept of the, well, it isn't an asteroid, isn't it it's like a thing of trash or is it an asteroid? I couldn't tell, but anyway, talk about the asteroid and, and where you got that idea and, and how the earth was saved from that item.
Speaker 2 00:17:03 It's I, I think that it's sort of, um, I'm not, I'm not afraid of, of tropes, I guess it's just sort of like, okay, you know, the world's going to end, what am I going to do? Should I try to create something completely original and different, or just acknowledge the fact that it is scientifically possible that an asteroid will hit this earth and lay ways that humanity, there have been asteroids that have hit this planet in the past. So I try not to overthink it because the asteroid really isn't the story. It's, it's the past. Um, and the asteroid itself, isn't really about it. It's, you know, I don't want to give anything away, but it's just, it's sort of like, all I needed was that device that okay, the world, our world almost ended. And I didn't want to build something super elaborate, uh, because it's, this story is about 40 years sort of after those events.
Speaker 1 00:18:07 Well, that brings me to the whole culture of personality that you kind of bring out. There's a Kira, she's both a real genuine hero and also a flawed human, maybe very thought human and there's other people, your unnamed narrator also is kind of a, well, I don't know if he's a cult of personality in the sense of being famous, but he certainly has done good things and is also a flawed human being, which you talk about those concepts for me.
Speaker 2 00:18:38 Um, sure. Um, yeah, I mean, it's really, I mean, uh, Kira is, I would say is, is sort of the star of, of this, this story, um, much like maybe, maybe a hub or our Gatsby or, you know, she's she, um, yeah, she she's, uh, the narrator is just sort of in proximity of her. Um, and he helps her, but she sort of, you know, she is, she is the thing, she's whatever, she's a Hannibal Lecter of his story, I guess. Um, and I don't, it's just, I think that part of, I mean, thematically, what I, what I think about Austin is just, and it's not, it's not a profound sort of, um, theme, but power is kind of scary. And I think that, you know, it's just, has anybody, has anybody who wielded power ever done it? Um, always humanely or perfectly. And I, I would say not that I know of, um, power is just, it's just so dangerous. And I think that the, those, both of those characters sort of sort of reflect that idea that, um, to have power is to sometimes destroy,
Speaker 1 00:20:06 Well, let's talk about history. Um, I've got this at a very, towards the very end of the book. The narrator talks about the past affecting the present, obviously that's true and the present affecting the future, but he talks about how they kind of, uh, well, this isn't his word, but they kind of mushed together in terms of what predicts, what, and what affects, what and how things can even change based on thinking even about the concept to, uh, if you observe something, it changes it. Um, and I'm wondering how you came up with that concept. Very complicated and fascinating concept.
Speaker 2 00:20:54 Well, it was just, I think that, um, well, while I was doing research for this book on some of the things that, that I was reading about was one was, um, particle physics, right? So I'm reading about particle physics and you know, how a particle may, uh, will behave differently, whether it's, um, if it's observed or unobserved. And I also, you know, I, I did reading on, on time and, you know, um, I w I, didn't thinking about the notion of time as not just this very simple linear thing. Um, and I, you know, so I I'm, and I go, I explored these, these ideas more, um, and, and the following books. So, you know, there's, so this is a bubble quarter of a trilogy. And so this is sort of kickstarting those ideas. And I, I exploited them more in the second and third book.
Speaker 1 00:21:54 Can you share without spoilers a little bit about the second and third book?
Speaker 2 00:22:00 Um, sure. I would say that, so this, you know, the, the first book, and so I, not only, you know, so it's, this first book is very much, as you said, it's steeped in mystery and the war, and I'm taking, I'm continuing the same story, and I'm sort of shifting, I guess, the genre you could say. So I would say that, uh, the second book for example, is more adventure than, than mystery and, uh, and maybe a little bit elements of, of horror. And in the third book, I do other things as well. So I'm always been sort of fast to, you know, some of the, some of, some of my favorite books are these books where you can tell that the author is just stuffing everything that they love and find fascinating into a book or a series of books. And it's these crazy world. And, you know, I've always been enamored by that. So I guess this trilogy is, is my, my attempt to do the same thing. I'm just cramming this world, this story with just all the things that I love and all the things that, uh, I don't love, or the things that fascinated me about people in the world and possible futures.
Speaker 1 00:23:18 Well, at least so far, you have crammed things in very well. I really enjoyed this book a lot. I kind of couldn't put it down. I was at least, you know, in the middle of the night sort of dozing off and then going, oh, I gotta wake up and read this book. Yeah. It was fun. Uh, tell us how people can get ahold of you and where the, do you have a website? I, I tried to find a website and I couldn't find one, but I found lots of Facebook and things. So how can people get ahold of you and find out more about you?
Speaker 2 00:23:52 Yeah, I just, um, I booked out of a website and the website, uh, water city, water, city, trilogy. Um, as far as getting a hold of me, I'm hopefully breeds game. I do have, you know, I did start up on account before this, this book came out then. And so I check in on that from time to time. Um, yeah, you, you know, it's, it's easy to find me on, on Facebook. Um, you know, if people want to message me that that's fine. Um, uh, but yeah, so the website for the book is, um, um, poking my head in good reads and my sort of baby account account and, uh, on Facebook and Instagram, no Twitter though for, I just, it's just too much. I can do maybe vantage social media lives. I can, you know, do two out of the three, but three, I have a Twitter account, but they just, it became overwhelming.
Speaker 1 00:25:04 I agree. I agree. Well, we've been speaking with, uh, Chris McKinney, author of midnight water city, a wonderful book. Uh, you should read it and, uh, thanks a lot. It was a wonderful interview. And we've enjoyed speaking to you. Thanks for taking, uh, a spot a year it's afternoon there isn't you're in Hawaii.
Speaker 2 00:25:28 I am in Hawaii and it's, uh, it's two 30 in the afternoon and the sun is up and it's actually, it's, it's hot.
Speaker 1 00:25:38 Yes. Yes. I was out at the ball game and it was not hot here in Minnesota, so, but anyway, thanks for spending part of your afternoon with us here on, right on radio.
Speaker 2 00:25:49 I need, I really want to go to Minnesota one day and on one of the biggest reasons, why is I'm a huge prince fan? I got to see Paisley park. I have to get,
Speaker 1 00:26:05 We've got murals down at first avenue and you can get t-shirts and whatever you want up here. Cool. Okay, Chris. Well, I'm going to let you go, but thank you very much. I really enjoyed this. You bet bye-bye. And now this
Speaker 3 00:26:50 Today, I am talking with political anthropologist, David vine, about his newest book, United States war, a global history of America's endless conflicts from Columbus to the Islamic state. The book was a finalist for the 20, 20 LA times book prize in history David's of the writings have appeared in the New York times, Washington post the guardian mother Jones, Boston globe, Huffington post, and a Chronicle of higher education among others, all royalties from David's books and all speaker honorariums are donated to the chat, ghosting people and nonprofit organizations serving other victims of war. David, welcome to radio.
Speaker 4 00:27:27 It's great to be with you.
Speaker 3 00:27:29 Yeah, so I, I said that, right, Chad go students, is that okay? I looked up ahead of time. So my first question actually was about this. So I'm concerned the relatives of your books. I wasn't familiar with the background of the chat. Go see people before reading your bio and discovering way later is the reading of the United States for it was a subject of your first book, I believe. Right? Can you discuss the history a bit about being evicted from the island of Diego Garcia?
Speaker 4 00:27:54 Sure. And yeah, in some ways, in many ways, the, my, my new book, the United States have we're really, as an outgrowth of 19 years of research, that began with being introduced to that, you go sounds like most people in the United States and sadly, most people in the world, I knew nothing about that. You go see and people, this is a group of people who lived on islands in the middle of the Indian ocean, and it's called the chaga silence. Uh, since around that they have their ancestors lived there since around the time of the American revolution and in the 1960s and 1970s, the entire group of people was rounded up and forcibly removed from their islands in their homes, by the U S and British government. So the U S military could build what has become a massive us air force and Navy base. And the people were simply deported left and exile 1200 miles away given no resettlement assistance for years and years and years, um, unsurprisingly, they became deeply impoverished.
Speaker 4 00:28:55 And now for more than half a century, they've been struggling to go back home and receive some decent compensation for what they've suffered and, and this, uh, being introduced to the mucosa. And it's being asked by some of their lawyers to do some research as part of lawsuits, they were bringing against the U S and British governments, uh, really opened my eyes to the huge collection of military bases that the United States has maintained around the world since really, since independence, but even at a greater global scale since world war II, uh, and opened my eyes to the effects of these spaces and the larger system of war that they are a foundation of.
Speaker 3 00:29:39 So that's a great segue into my next here in the preface, you quote the scholar, the kill, Paul saying that the people of the United States have arguably never been at peace now with your background as a political anthropologist. I essentially curious if you could elaborate on his points. It was going to ask if you could think of how do you think about our culture, if it's a blame for why we see conflicts, but then in the introduction though, you directly answer this though, saying that it's the infrastructure that makes wars carried out by the United States possible to blank. Is that fair?
Speaker 4 00:30:12 Yes. Although I go a bit farther. I do very much think, uh, the, the, the system of war that the United States has engaged in since independence, the, the system of war that the U S elite leaders have built is not, eh, the problem is not a cultural one. It's a, it's an economic one, it's a political one, it's a military one. There are social ideological dimensions that the degree to which militarism is really a religion in the United States and has, has been increasingly since independence. But what I say about basis is that not only do bases abroad, meaning basis outside us borders, not only have they enabled along system along series of, of wars, but they've actually made, made war more likely. So since independence, this is what I, what I argue in and found after 19 years of research, uh, for my book, the United States, for that since independence, the U S government has been building military bases, abroad, building extraterrestrial, territorial, military bases, initially on native American peoples lands, outside the 13 original states.
Speaker 4 00:31:23 And then increasingly on a global scale, uh, reach new levels during and after world war II, as I mentioned, and what we see over through us history is that these bases, again, not just enabled wars, but actually made wars more likely where wars often led to the creation of new us, military bases abroad, which then led to new wars, which then led to new basis, which led to new wars in a repeating pattern over time, which is not to say anything about this as inevitable. In fact, much of my, the impetus for my book, the United States of war is to argue and encourage us to, to choose a different path. There are wars that us leaders avoided in the past, uh, us leaders can avoid war now, and first and foremost need to bring the current wars that the United States is engaged in to an end. And that's really why I wrote the book, because I think in short, we need to stop fighting. Um, the United States has fought along a series of wars back to sings. Quotation United States is, is fought in hand virtually every year and its history and some form of war combat. Uh, in the last 20 years, we've been fighting a long continuous series of wars. The endless wars are forever war. We need to stop fighting. And if we don't, I think we are really doomed as a, as a country.
Speaker 3 00:32:47 One fact, I want to bring up here and I don't want to forget about that. I'm just gonna say it, that you bring the book is that there is, I believe 800 military bases spread out across the 85 countries that are still operating today. And us government has built the largest collection of military bases occupying foreign lands in world history.
Speaker 4 00:33:05 Yeah, thank you for providing that context. Again, the us military has been building bases outside us borders since independence, but in the post-World war two era, this collection of basis has reached a new global scale. And as you said, is, has exceeded the size of any collection of foreign military bases of any power empire people country in world history. And this, again, I is, is, is part of the infrastructure at war. And part of my fear right now in particular, the us has, has been closing bases in Afghanistan and withdrawing most, but not all of its troops from Afghanistan. Part of my fear is in a way that that withdrawal it's important and a good sign and a good start, but the, the larger infrastructure of war in surrounding countries in the greater middle east and on a global scale remains in place. And if we don't change that infrastructure, or if we don't change some of the underlying economic, uh, uh, systems related to the, in particular to the military industrial complex, we are likely to just continue fighting wars, continue the wars that are already underway and get into even more catastrophic wars.
Speaker 4 00:34:21 That's, that's my greatest fear.
Speaker 3 00:34:23 So let's talk about the cost of this right now. You, the dog bigger you given the book is there's $6.4 trillion is estimated what taxpayers have spent or should expect to eventually pay for post nine 11 wars along with the cost for future veteran benefits, interest payments on money, biologists pay for these fours. You already kind of answered this, but I want you to go to the more detailed do you predict we will see a repurposing of those funds for other concerns. Now with pandemic preparedness or green deals in the future, or are you cynical about the future?
Speaker 4 00:34:56 Um, I'm definitely not cynical about the future. I think the future is in our hands. There are some powerful people whose hands also have a role in shaping the future, meaning U S political leaders, uh, military leaders, civilian leaders, uh, and of course the, the leaders of, of weapons manufacturers and others, other elements of the military industrial complex, and that's what we're up against, but we, we simply must change the, the, the course that we're on. We have to stop fighting. We have to change the system of war, uh, as you pointed out. And that, that figure $6.4 trillion trillion with a T is the money that has been spent on the global war on terror since 2001. And that comes from the costs of war project, which I recommend to everyone it's been documenting the human and financial costs of the post nine 11 wars and really doing work that the us government should be doing.
Speaker 4 00:35:53 But I encourage everyone to check out the cost of war project. Um, now we're talking really closer to $7 trillion, uh, because that, that figure is from almost a year ago, $7 trillion. And we should think about, you know, in addition to the, the millions of deaths that these wars have, have brought to the peoples of Afghanistan or Iraq, Somalia, Yemen, Libya, and on and on, um, as well as of course, to us, military personnel, in addition to those deaths, how many deaths have we seen in the United States because of what we didn't invest $7 trillion in, we didn't invest $7 trillion in pandemic preparedness, as you said, how many hundreds of thousands of deaths could we have prevented if we had used just a tiny portion of that money to prepare for pandemics, to, to create adequate PPE supplies, uh, to create, uh, adequate and functioning public health system to create universal healthcare, we could have, uh, us leaders chose not to beginning with the initial decision by the George W. Bush administration to wage war in response to the attacks of nine 11.
Speaker 4 00:37:02 We're coming up on the 20th anniversary of the attacks of nine 11. And we need to remember that nothing that followed was inevitable, the George W. Bush administration could have responded to those attacks in many ways. It should have responded to them as the crimes that they work and responding with a criminal justice and intelligence gathering response and research shows around the world that in responding to terrorist acts responses rooted in criminal justice and intelligence gathering are far more effective than war the George W. Bush administration chose war subsequent administrations chose war, and we are dealing with the consequences and the world is dealing with the consequences. And that that's what we need to change. We need to stop this, this permanent war that the United States has been embarking on since 2001.
Speaker 3 00:37:54 I want to want to change gears. Now, I want to ask you about, uh, the opening, the book you talked about, how you don't want to use conventional names. Four's more accurate rendering of the Spanish American war. For example, you would say would be the Spanish Cuban, Puerto Rican Philippine American war. Can you discuss why you choose to avoid oversimplifying names for complex?
Speaker 4 00:38:15 Yeah, I think in a way it goes, I'm really glad you asked that question, which I think you're the first person, uh, because it goes to the heart of, of my book. I wrote this book to encourage readers, to think differently about us history, to think differently about the United States, the process doing the research for and writing the book changed how I see the United States. It was a process of really re-educating myself and stripping away. Some of the myths that I grew up with about us history and about us wars in particular, us wars of course, have generally been celebrated. They've been seen as, as things to be celebrated. And the heroes of wars, um, are ones that, that we've been taught to celebrate. There's really nothing we should celebrate about wars wars are first and foremost, first and foremost, death, death, and destruction and injury. There's very little that should be celebrated about war to begin with. Um, but so, so changing the names that we associate with different wars was a way to encourage people to think differently about the wars whose names we have in our consciousness often here in the United States. And we have sort of fixed ideas about, about those more. So changing the names was a way to encourage people to think differently about each individual war and about the larger pattern of war.
Speaker 3 00:39:42 I was impressed with your focus on specific individuals and groups or political agents responsible for certain actions and several friend to the United States writ large. How conscientious are you while writing to use language that won't obscure uncomfortable truths? You already touched on this, but I'd ask it still.
Speaker 4 00:40:01 Yeah, I think it's, it's really important. So, and wars are a good example. I guess, one of the ones that troubles me most, and I, I haven't really figured out a good alternative is, is the term cold war. You know, people use the term cold war to describe this decades long conflict between the United States and the Soviet union. There was nothing cold about this war. Millions of people died in this war proxy wars between the United States. And so union largely in Vietnam and Cambodia and Laos and Southeast Asia in Korea. Um, and, and in parts of Africa, uh, millions upon millions of people died, tens of millions were injured. Um, how can we rightly call this cold war? Um, and by doing so we obscure all that death and suffering. Um, so, so that that's one example, um, and, and, and military discussions of military matters and wars so often, uh, obscure, as we said, and, and, and, and, and I, the, the, the truths of war and the, the central truth, that, that war is about death. It's about killing. And I wanted another major aim of my book in, in, in telling the long history of us wars to make the human consequences of war front and center. And language is one way to, to start with that.
Speaker 3 00:41:28 There's a cognitive dissonance, I think for many Americans trying to imagine, or consider the S as an empire on a global scale. I mean, for me, when you put that in perspective, I thought about that. I mean, I never really considered, I guess the term used the book is that we're an empire in denial. We largely designed to post-World war two international political economic system. We have unparalleled control over the United nations. What makes the United States and empire, I guess, for our listening audience, who aren't really familiar, haven't really thought of the United States in that way.
Speaker 4 00:42:00 Yeah. Again, I grew up not thinking of the United States as an empire. No, I grew up in sort of the star wars generation. Now, I guess we have many generations of star wars fans, but the original star wars star wars series, where I grew up, um, relating do of the rebellion rather than the empire that they were fighting against. And, and thinking that the United States was like the, the rebels, when, of course the United States was the empire. In fact, George Lucas was inspired by, by the us war in Vietnam, where we very much were the empire. But, um, so to get to the heart of your question, uh, you know, how else could we describe a country that began occupying a small group of states on the Eastern seaboard of the United States of what is now the United States of north America, and then expanded all the way across the continent, conquering territory and peoples and killing millions in the process, displacing tens of millions in the process.
Speaker 4 00:43:07 What other word is appropriate? Describe that alone, other than empire. So that, that that's, that's the beginning, the United States, it's been an empire since independence, early leaders modeled the United States after the European empires and saw the United States as a rising empire in the Western hemisphere. And in world war II, the post-World war II period, the United States has become a fundamentally different kind of empire. You were alluding to this, it's become a global Pyre. The United States was largely an empire. I'm more of a hemispheric scale prior to that. Um, but in the post world war two period, United States has become an empire that both dominates large swaths of territory, mostly in north America, but pieces of territory elsewhere, and then has become an empire of basis. The basis is this collection of now about 750 bases abroad are in a way like the colonies of olds. They are discrete pieces of territory, much smaller pieces of territory that actually allow the United States to dominate an influence and exert control over much larger, larger swaths of territory. And that's why military bases are a foundation of contemporary U S empire, along with other foundations like controlling nuclear weapons and having the, by far, the largest U S by far the largest military budget in the world among other elements of, of us Imperial power.
Speaker 3 00:44:42 Hello, everyone. I am here to talk with David vine about his book, the United States of war. So I want you to describe for me the, the lease arrangement that the United States made with Cuba for Guantanamo bay, it's a very unique arrangement.
Speaker 4 00:44:58 It is it's, uh, basically, uh, it was imposed on the Cuban people, uh, the U S government shortly after the war between Spain and the United States, and, uh, the United States, uh, effectively, uh, turned Cuba into, uh, a quasi colony. Uh, officially Cuba had its independence from Spain, but the United States government retained tremendous control, including the right to invade and deploy troops into Cuba. At-will, uh, another, uh, uh, another part of the treaty that was imposed on the Cuban government and the Cuban people was the right for the U S government to create a military race in quarantinable bay. And this treaty was subsequently, uh, the 1930s revised. Uh, but to this day, the United States occupies Guantanamo bay against the will of the Cuban people, the Cuba camp by virtue of the treaty remove the United States. It's, it's a very odd arrangement where technically in some ways the United States is a tenant at one time obey, but they essentially have a lease that every renter, every tenant would love to have where they can't be evicted. Uh, and the only way to evict the U S military would be to do it militarily, which the Cuban military and government is about to do. Uh, so, so as I say, in the book, one time a bay should be considered a colony of the United States. It is a colonized piece of, of, of Cuba
Speaker 3 00:46:39 For our listening audience. I was wondering if you can explain this concept of open door imperialism, especially in relation to Mexico and central America.
Speaker 4 00:46:49 Yeah. Open imperialism does point to sort of another pattern and period in the history of, of us empire and the history of the U S imperialism that emerges around the turn of the 19th to 20th century at that time European empires and the United States were competing for the Chinese market, and we're using their militaries to make inroads into the Chinese market and not just the United States, but European empires practiced what was called open door imperialism that involves the discreet holding up territory in China, small of city, or, or even within a city, um, settlements that enables, uh, the power to exert its economic control into the Chinese market. Um, rather than the wide scale seizure of Chinese territory, which would be sort of more traditional form of imperialism. Um, so the United States government proceeds to practice this kind of open door imperialism, this kind of economic imperialism, not just in China, um, but indeed in Latin America. And in, particularly in, in Mexico and central America, which, uh, you know, the after, after the United States invaded its other neighbor, Mexico, which it did, uh, on at least 10 occasions. Um, but in the, the, the war, we just passed the a hundred and 50th anniversary of that, the war with Mexico, um, the, the United States government and us corporations continued to exercise a tremendous amount of control over, over Mexico and the Mexican economy. Um, and this sort of open door economic form of materialism, uh, continued into the 20th century.
Speaker 3 00:48:44 My last question for you, David, what are you working on next? Or what are you working on right now?
Speaker 4 00:48:50 I'm working on some added some, some writing related to the book specifically. I want to write about alternatives ways to make sure that we stop fighting. One of the things I'm writing about is, is a return to president Roosevelt, Franklin Delano, Roosevelt's good neighbor policy. This is a, one of the rare periods in us history when the U S military was not fighting between 1935 and 1940, roughly Roosevelt's good neighbor policy was premised on the belief that countries had no right to invade other countries that countries had no right to intervene in the foreign or domestic policy for their countries. In point of fact, the U S track record in this period was, was more complicated, but the principles underlying this good neighbor policy are ones that we should return to, uh, beginning with, uh, giving up the, any, any thought or right to invade and wage war in other countries. Um, so that is one priority, as well as spelling out other ways to reduce the power of the military industrial complex, um, and, and change the course of the United States away from, from this system of permanent war. I do want, one other thing I want to do is, um, create a series of Tik TOK videos, um, rather than just writing them, I'm interested in, in, um, sharing my ideas and thoughts on, on these matters of war and peace, um, through to TOK and reaching a different audience.
Speaker 3 00:50:30 I'd love to see that. So, and on a related note, um, I would also share with a lot of people here who are listening, that there's a, I think on the website for this book, there's a lot of great illustrations there in this book. I think it's 28 illustration that encompasses show the different baseball cations. We have that our country occupies right now in different spots that correct,
Speaker 4 00:50:49 That's sorry, 28 maps specifically, that, that show, uh, the history of depict the history of us wars depict the collection of us, military bases abroad currently, and historically, um, as well as the illustrate other, other aspects of, of the, of the book. Um, and indeed all the, all the maps are available for free download on my website, which is David vine.net, David vine.net.
Speaker 3 00:51:17 Yeah. I'd recommend checking those out and also recommend checking out. David binds new book, United States of war, a global history of America's endless conflicts from Columbus to the Islamic state. David, once again, thanks for being on right on radio with us,
Speaker 4 00:51:30 Josh, thank you so much. It's really been a great conversation.
Speaker 3 00:51:34 And now the
Speaker 1 00:51:52 You have been listening to right on radio on Kathy I, 90.3 FM and streaming wive on the
[email protected]. I'm Liz Oles. And I'd like to thank our special guests tonight, Dave, the Bai and Chris McKinney, plus our listeners without you, your support and donations KPI would not be possible. You can find more news and info about right on radio at KFA ai.org/programs/right on radio. Plus listen to recent episodes on our recently launched podcasts found on Spotify, iTunes, Google podcasts, and anywhere podcasts can be found. Now stay tuned after these short messages for Minnesota, <inaudible>.
