Speaker 1 00:03:10 You are listening to right on radio on KFH 90.3 FM and streaming live on the
[email protected]. I'm Josh Webber. And tonight on, right on radio, Liz Oles, we'll be talking with Matthew Fitzsimmons. The author of Constance, the breakthrough in human cloning becomes one. Woman's waking nightmare in a mind-bending thriller by the wall street journal bestselling author of the Gibson Vaughn series.
Speaker 2 00:03:36 And I'm Liz olds also later in the show, Josh talks with researcher and journalist, Jess McHugh about her book, American nod and the unexpected us history in 13 bestselling books. The true, fascinating, and remarkable history of 13 books that defined a nation, all of this and more so stay tuned for right on radio. Matthew, are you there?
Speaker 3 00:04:09 I am here. How are you?
Speaker 2 00:04:10 I'm doing great. We're talking with Matthew Fitzsimmons, author of Constance. Uh, why don't you tell us a little bit about the book?
Speaker 3 00:04:20 Constance is, uh, a a, I suppose you'd call it a science fiction, a blended mystery thriller about a, uh, a young woman who is the book is set in 2040. So about 20 years from now. And it conjectures that, uh, human cloning has become commercially available. And that in the event of a client's untimely deaths, that the con their stored consciousness would be, would be downloaded into a cloned body so that their lives could essentially continue with as little interruption as possible. Um, uh, the book is about one, such a client who wakes to find out that the original con Darcy that's the name of the main character, uh, has died mysteriously. And she is thrust into the role of detective. It's essentially a, a book about a woman who is both the detective and the victim of the same crime.
Speaker 2 00:05:19 Fascinating, fascinating. I really enjoyed the book. Did you, were you able to, I kind of, at the last minute, asked him to do a reading. Were you able to get a reading together? For me? Matthew
Speaker 3 00:05:30 Is right in front of me. All
Speaker 2 00:05:31 Right. Great. Why don't you go for it?
Speaker 3 00:05:34 All right. So this is actually, I'm going to start from chapter four, which is essentially the moment she wakes up. This is describing the moment that the main character wakes up as a clone for the first time as calm, clot, or way up the gray tunnel towards awareness. She knew something was very wrong. A hangover after refreshing upload was, well, it pleasant, but it had never been this bad before. Not even close her health, her head felt waterlogged and a steady pressure was building against her temples, drip, drip, drip, her brain felt as if he'd been crammed into a soggy matchbox. No, not her brain, her mind, and it wanted out bad. She yawned uncontrollably. That much was normal, even though a refresh for a superficial resemblance to slow wave sleep. It wasn't restful. It explained that during orientation, how suppressing the prefrontal cortex simulated sleep while the rest of the brain lit up like a slot machine, hitting a million dollar jackpot, which is why it felt less like waking up and more like a guided tour of the world's largest Akila distillery.
Speaker 3 00:06:48 When she opened her eyes, her eyelashes were crusted shut. As though she'd been crying, it happened paly and Genesis called it autonomic emotional response, a side effect of the intense stimulation on the hippocampus Khan just called it draining. So the lights were being cut into her retinas, like rescue flares. She raised her hand to shield her eyes, but her arm did not respond. She couldn't even feel it as if nothing at all existed below her shoulder. She tried to lift their head to confirm that she still had arms, but our neck wouldn't have be either a terrible thought occurred to her. It had been a malfunction they'd fried her. Somehow. She squeezed her eyes shut and tried to remain calm. Hey, on Genesis build uploads is routine outpatient procedures should there've been mistakes in the early days that had left smoking vegetables in the chair, cut and paste instead of copy and paste.
Speaker 3 00:07:41 But Palin Genesis claim did resolve those issues. And with the latest generation of upload errors of less than 0.0 0 0 0 4 5, 3, 6% common memorize that number because it was comfort. Immense infant to small smallness. There was a better chance of a shark attack on a mountain top of a neural bottomy during a refresh or so appealing. Genesis assured its clients. The sound of voice has encouraged her to reopen her eyes. A man and a woman can gradually into focus. Condon recognize either of them, but more ominously. Neither was the layer of scar, her steward, or still both wore white lab coats over hospital scrubs, no one dressed like a Dr. Paley and Genesis ever. It was part of their strict or distract clients from thinking about where they were. That alone frightened Khan more than how bad she felt. She opened her mouth to ask what had gone wrong.
Speaker 3 00:08:35 But all that came out was a low grinding, moan, a wonderful the lab techs glanced briefly at her and returned to their LFTs. Calm, decided to give, establishing first contact. One more shot. Whereas Dr. Quell, she croaked not pretty, but progress. The female tech looked at her, pardon? Unquestioningly he explained a quality used to work here. He left before you hired on a female tech made an alarm face. How far back does this one go? 18 months. He said, no, the female texted. That's not possible. That's what? The time her timestamp says, well, that's insane. Who authorized this? The process is automated. He reminded her. Yeah, but there are safety checks in place. Well, someone screwed up. He agreed royally, calm, headed, talk, and being talked about like, she wasn't there. Hello? She said, hello. The two texts fell silent. Would one of you explain what the hell was going on?
Speaker 3 00:09:36 What did you do? Why can't she started over the next word? Like a hiccup move. Whereas Dr. Quo, it said he left the company, but she must've misunderstood the male tech plants that his partner before answering Dr. Cole doesn't work here anymore. What are you talking about Sam this morning? Where is he? He took a job in California in the last six hours. Her voice going stronger by the word. Maybe she wasn't completely screwed. Nine months ago, the lab tech said almost apologetically. The hairs on calm shoulders stood up. Ironically, the first sensation she'd felt below the next, since waking. They really had fried her. That was the only explanation
Speaker 2 00:10:26 I was going to say, why don't we, uh, stop it there. That was about five minutes. So I don't mean to stop a little bit. And that was perfect. Perfect. So I have some questions about cloning first, because that is a major, obviously part of the book. Um, can you give us a little bit of the history of cloning,
Speaker 3 00:10:48 Um, within the book or within the real world, which are we
Speaker 2 00:10:54 The real world?
Speaker 3 00:10:56 Well, within the real world, um, obviously cloning has, has come along leaps and bounds over the last few decades. Uh, you know, famously Barbara Streisand, cloned her dogs, uh, we've cloned sheeps. We can clone most, anything we want to. Um, and the interesting thing that I realized is that, uh, we do human cloning in America almost every day, uh, in the form of research in certain, in terms of stem cells, we clone human cells all the time, um, which is why there are no federal laws governing, uh, governing cloning. It's a state's issue. Um, what we don't do obviously is make it person, uh, but the capacity to do it certainly exists at just as an ethical divide thus far, we've been unwilling to cross. And the book, uh, the book sort of takes that next step. I, uh, uh, basically, uh, right, a scientist character who, who jumps starts, both learns how to combine, uh, consciousness mapping, which is something that is being worked on currently, uh, with human cloning to correct us service that would allow, uh, you know, a, a person consciousness to be uploaded and stored digitally, and then conceivably be downloaded into a, uh, a human clone of themselves later on.
Speaker 3 00:12:26 That is not obviously possible now, but the interesting part of the research was that it is something that I think could conceivably be possible, not within the 20 year frame of the book, but within the next 40 or 50 years at the way, uh, research has going possibly,
Speaker 2 00:12:43 Wow. I was going to ask how viable it would be for humans. And it sounds like it's well not right around the corner, but within some people's lifetimes
Speaker 3 00:12:55 Possible. I mean, there's, I'm making some big leaps with the idea with the notion of being able to download a consciousness into a body. I, I talked to some, uh, uh, uh, neuropsychiatrist psychologists at Johns Hopkins, uh, and, uh, I mean, the, the interesting thing that they're the problem gets into where the mind actually resides. I mean, traditionally we think of the mind is residing in the head. Um, but the more and more we studied the, the body, uh, in the central nervous system is a huge part of what the human consciousness as it, you know, there are studies now that say that memory and mind health are very much linked to your gut to expression. Gut instinct is, is more on the nose and people would have thought a good gut health leads to better memory.
Speaker 2 00:13:52 I'm curious since we're talking in this realm about the ethics, you really cover in the book, a wide range of ethical ideas from parent Genesis to the children of Adam. And, um, I don't need to know your personal, but how, how did you come up with all these different ideas for different ethical positions on cloning?
Speaker 3 00:14:16 Well, what was interesting to me, what's always been interesting to me is the idea that, you know, that science will make these leaps. And we will often introduce technologies without necessarily thinking through the ramifications. Um, uh, w w we, we sort of play catch up. Something gets something, a new technology gets introduced into a society. And then that society has to sometimes discovers down the road, what the, uh, what the drawbacks are. So with cloning, it was, it was sort of a fun, and it was, it was a fascinating intellectual experiment with, which was if cloning was, if someone introduced human cloning and it became readily available, what were the, what would the legal ramifications be? You know, if, uh, you know, when someone dies, a death certificate is issued their social security numbers suspended, and, you know, there are steps that are taken that when a life ends.
Speaker 3 00:15:23 So how would person would be transferred from the person to their clone? If that person was married, would the person who was married to that person is now a clone, would they still be married? Are you legally required to be married to the clone of your dead spouse? Um, and, and, and sort of thinking through how the culture would have, and, and the legal system would have to catch up with a technology that they, that, that the old, that, that, that they hadn't really, you know, that, that the writers of laws had never had never dreamed of being a problem. And I think we see things like that now, playing out with various technologies that are, that are disrupting how things used to be done, and that the inventors of the technology aren't necessarily thinking through, or really concerned with what's the, what, what effects is this going to have?
Speaker 2 00:16:22 Um, yeah, I'm thinking of a particular situation where some will situations come up and, um, money is, I mean, it's hard enough and of life stuff with finances without all these complications. And it, uh, it gets pretty complicated there, uh, in that particular situation.
Speaker 3 00:16:44 Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, and particularly if, you know, if it's not federally governed, then you get into a situation where different states have different standards and, and which we've had in this country before where, uh, one state has sort of a set of standards for how something is handled and others, you know, would, there are, you know, written into the constitution is the idea that states must respect other state's laws and you get into, and you can get into various complex push poll about whose laws take precedent. And that's how you eventually you wind up at the Supreme court. Um, so it was just a really fascinating, uh, hypothetical, uh, uh, once the world-building got them to sort of play in the sandbox. I'd correct.
Speaker 2 00:17:35 It is a fascinating book and very enjoyable in that regard. We're speaking with Matthew Fitzsimmons, author of Constance, a book about, uh, a person who is a clone and the difficulties that had happened to her while she's going through that. Um, now the, um, in the, the thing for the book, it says that one person is looking for the murder of herself. And I'm wondering how you came up with that amazing idea.
Speaker 3 00:18:10 Well, that was actually what started the whole, uh, book off. I w I was noodling around one night and I was trying to think of a way to just take a traditional detective story and twist it in a way that I hadn't seen before come up with something fresh. And I said, I, I remember just thinking to myself, well, it would be really cool if someone had to investigate their own murder, which obviously is impossible, because if you're dead, you can investigate your murder unless you are Patrick Swayze in ghost, or the, you know, or, I mean, you know, there are stories that have sort of a supernatural twist where, uh, you know, where you can sort of, you can finagle that scenario, but I wanted it to be a real flesh and blood person investigating their own flesh and blood murder. And for the life of me, I couldn't figure out a way to make it happen until the word clone, what it, what if it was a clone. And there was one of those sort of like nice Eureka moments. And I, uh, I just started outlining. And so it really just came from a, a very sort of basic impetus of, um, you know, how could I, how could I write a story where the detective and the victim were the same person, uh, and out of that came Constance, thanks to the miracle of cloning.
Speaker 2 00:19:30 Yes. Yes. And I mean, did you, have you studied cloning before, had you done some research or this just popped into your head, as you said, as a Eureka moment?
Speaker 3 00:19:40 No, it was just a Eureka moment. I knew next to nothing about it, other than, you know, having seen, you know, seen movies, read books and, and reading the newspaper. So it really was a, well now I need to educate myself on this, on the subject. Uh, so I can think through how, how I want to portray this, how to, how to ground the world of the book. So it feels plausible that it feel that while none of a number of things in it, aren't obviously are a conjectural, uh, how to make those conjectures seem grounded in a plausible, uh, an applaudable world. So the research was just a lot of fun. I mean, it, it, it's, uh, you know, that's a great fun part of being an author is you get to, you get to read a lot and you get to talk to smart people. And it's amazing how it's amazing how generous people are with their time. If you say, uh, Hey, can I buy you a drink or dinner? And so I can pick your brain on your area of expertise, people, because I want to write a thriller about it. People are remarkably with their time. So I've been very fortunate to talk to some very smart people who help make me sound reasonably smart.
Speaker 2 00:20:56 Would you call it, you know, it's funny because you talked about the, uh, spirituality and this book is science fiction in my mind, but it's also very, very believable, uh, in terms of a real world. I wasn't going, oh my God, this is Robert Highline. You know, I was just really, uh, drawn in and believing in these people and the things they were going through. Um, how did you manage to make that happen?
Speaker 3 00:21:24 Uh, Y you know, at the end of the day, I mean, I think a good story is about the, the characters, regardless of, you know, you know, do you know if you go to see star wars, for example, you know, you're held there because you like Han solo. Um, it's not, you know, at the, I would argue that the best part of almost any story are the characters. It's not, you know, even even the biggest glitziest blockbuster movie at the end of the day, you're there because the characters you care about them. Um, and if you lose sight of that, it doesn't matter what your special effects budget is. It doesn't matter any of the rest of it. If you don't have characters, you don't have anything. So I, you know, for me, it was, this is, you know, people, you know, it has been called a science fiction novel, but to me, it's just a story about this woman about con Darcy and her life before in her life after, and her trying to reconcile, um, what she understands about herself. And that is that that is, has almost nothing to do with the cloning part of it. And, and so my hope is I think what any author hopes is that they've, they've created a real and grounded and believable human character at the center of it, even if outlandish and impossible things are happening to them. And around them,
Speaker 2 00:22:59 Talk a little bit more about your research. And in addition to the, to the, uh, taking people out for drinks, I'm wondering if you, um, I'm wondering if you had a library that you went to, or a librarian or a mentor that you worked with, what kinds of things did you do to stir the pot in your mind of how this worked out for you?
Speaker 3 00:23:20 Well, my library was mostly a bookstore. Um, and once I was once I'd sort of assembled people who were, you know, once I had bought drinks for the group of people who were willing to help me, you know, I had a, a constitutional law professor. I had a, you know, a, uh, a neuropsychiatrist from Hopkins. I had an engineer from bell labs and, uh, in Fort worth, once I sort of had like my team, if you want to call them that, I don't know that they would appreciate being called my team. So once I had the people who I, I felt I could rely on and who were willing to lend me their time, I, I, I, you start picking their brains. What book should I read? What, uh, what periodicals would be helpful here? And they were, so I think I had multiple mentors to you to borrow your, uh, the bar, your phrase, um, and you know, one, you know, one reading leads to another, and you, you just sort of start to, you know, it's a little bit like being in college where you you're, you know, are writing a book report when you're in high school.
Speaker 3 00:24:28 It's just, you, you, you go down the rabbit hole and you see where it takes you. And, uh, sometimes you come to dead ends and sometimes you come to it, unbelievably rich veins of, uh, of information that helped, uh, to make your, the world of the book. You're trying to create, um, grounded and believable.
Speaker 2 00:24:48 Do you do a writer's group? Are you on your own?
Speaker 3 00:24:53 Uh, I have multiple, particularly during the, uh, the pandemic. Uh, I think a lot of authors, I mean, we're a fairly solitary bunch. They really only let us out for, uh, for conventions a couple of times a year. And otherwise we're, uh, in our, in our, our caves and under a rock working away. Uh, and I think there was a lot of bonding and sort of bonding together. I have two or three different sort of re semi-regularly zoom calls with, uh, uh, with authors, um, who were, who were very, who, you know, you could talk through ideas, you could pitch things to, who would read, who had read bits and pieces if you needed them to. So it's really valuable to have a support group. Uh, um, particularly right now, I found,
Speaker 2 00:25:51 Well, we're getting close to the end of our time here. I'm wondering if you want to compare, you have a series of thrillers, which I can't wait to get into now that I read Constance. Um, how do you compare, are you going to keep doing the more science fiction-y kind of thing, or are you going to keep with your thrillers or what's going to happen next?
Speaker 3 00:26:15 I don't know the answer to that. That's a very good question. I am currently writing a second book in the Constance, uh, universe, if you want to call it that it's a, it's a sequel of sorts, uh, and a companion. I realized at some point that there was that I had more to say in this world. And, uh, I'm very excited about, uh, the second book for it, whether I will keep going, you know, it's, it's, you know, it's interesting as an author, that once you sort of get a label assigned to you, uh, you write romance novels, you write, uh, you know, the publishing is publishing was very big on its labels, thrillers, mystery writer, romance, novel fantasy office science fiction author. Once you sort of have that label you're extent, extensive expected not to, um, wander too far field. Um, so it will be interesting to see what, uh, what the, the mechanics of, of publishing sort of expect coming from.
Speaker 3 00:27:23 I mean, I think in, I think in my mind's eye, I think the dream would be, you know, I, you know, some of this is going to be a ridiculous thing to say, but you know, someone who, you know, someone who isn't a wonderful position is a man like Stephen King now, obviously because he's the biggest author on the planet. That's a silly thing to say. But what I mean by it is that he, you know, that people just read, Stephen King has written hauling novels. He's written an entire fantasy series. He's written some science fiction novels. He's written some straight, just, uh, dramatic novels. And he people just read Stephen King books. And I think that, you know, I think the dream would be to be in a position like that, where, you know, whatever silly, whatever idea came into my hot little head, I would be able to write.
Speaker 3 00:28:15 I mean, that's obviously, you know, uh, something of a pipe dream, that's all, that's a difficult position to attain, but I think that would be, uh, the dream would just to be the freedom to, uh, not necessarily have to write one, one type of book or another. Um, cause I think the Gibson Bonsers and constants at the end of the day are both just thrillers and mysteries and one has a science fiction component to it, but I would argue it's still just a, at the heart of it, all books are just, you know, are just books. So that's my, I think I was, I think you just caught me pleading my case to my publisher to let me do whatever I wanted. So thank you. Thank you for letting me practice my spiel. Um, good. That's one. I got to work on everyone else
Speaker 2 00:29:09 With series of though, I think of Sue Grafton and how many years she did those series and then she never got to Z.
Speaker 3 00:29:17 No, I know. I, I think, I think writing a series that, you know, I get some Bonsers is five books long and, and I loved writing it, but I do think you're right that there that you can, you can become, and I'm not saying this as Sue Grafton, but I think it w I think I would have a hard time writing. It was a long year way to series in a strange way, the narrower your options become because the weight or the series dictates what kind of story you can tell. Like I've had plenty of ideas for books that just can't be a Gibson bond book because of what has come before and who that character is. And so while it's nice to have a series into the similar Miliary of those characters, it can also become a limiting, uh, you know, I needed to come up with a story specifically for that series. Not just what's the best story I can come up with. So I, you know, getting to a conference was tremendous. It was tremendously freeing and exciting because it was a, you know, not to sound painterly, but it was a whole new canvas. And you can, it's really hard to describe how exciting that is to have a totally blank slate on which to, uh, to come up with something new. So, uh, yeah, I think you're right. There's, there's a wonderful, but they can, that they had their dangerous.
Speaker 2 00:30:42 Yes. Uh, well, how can people, uh, find you on the web, what's your website and do you have an email address and all that
Speaker 3 00:30:50 I should ever do? Um, these easiest way to find me is, uh, at my website, www.matthewsatsimmons.com from there they're links to my Twitter account, my Instagram, uh, my author email. Um, and really, if you just go there, all of that information is as listed there. Uh, and I would hope to see, uh, see people there
Speaker 2 00:31:14 And Matthew Fitzsimmons, just so people know, has a Z and an S in the spelling. So, uh,
Speaker 3 00:31:21 Irish
Speaker 2 00:31:24 Simmons, um, well, thank you so much. I really enjoyed our conversation tonight. And, uh, I enjoyed the book. I really enjoyed the book. This has been Matthew's Fitzsimmons talking about his book, Constance, which is a fascinating look at, uh, cloning and many, many other things. So thank you very much, Matthew.
Speaker 3 00:31:46 Thank you so so much for having me.
Speaker 2 00:31:48 You bet. Take care. Good night.
Speaker 1 00:32:45 Today I'm talking with Jess McHugh, author of American Canon and unexpected us history in 13 best-selling books. Her work has been featured in the New York times, the wall street journal, the Washington post, the guardian among many other publications shares reported stories from four continents on a range of cultural historical topics from present day Liverpool punks to history of 1960s activists in Greenwich village. Welcome to right on radio, Jess.
Speaker 4 00:33:08 Thanks so much. I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 1 00:33:10 So I like the, you start with book. You're skeptical of nostalgia in many ways, and I've, I am as well. And you talk about the background, the board installed, it comes from two Latin words now, stoves, meaning coming home and Al dose meaning pain. And I was wondering you talk about the significance of knowing this vis-a-vis American Canon.
Speaker 4 00:33:31 Yes. So when I wrote the book American and I really wanted to kind of grapple with both the, the kind of the things that we can be proud of in our nation's history and maybe the things that we need to re-examine. And so, you know, I say in the introduction that the book is not a take-down of our culture, but I, at the same time, I think like many Americans who are awakened alive to this moment in time, it really means grappling with that. So I liked this idea that we can have a homecoming that, you know, might involve some pain, but still is about returning to where we're from
Speaker 1 00:34:05 And the old farmer's Almanac. It it's still has appeal to not so much for its utility, but the comfort of nostalgia, it's rural simplicity in a world facing rapid change that only grows exponentially. But you talk about in the book, how to, this is many ways a myth, not, not that it's false, but it profoundly influences many Americans today and how they perceive reality is working to elaborate on that point a little bit.
Speaker 4 00:34:30 Sure. Yeah. So I, I talk often in the book about myth and mythology, and I use it in a kind of Greek sense, which is to say maybe a story that, that gets at a deeper truth or gets that some kind of belief that we hold in ourselves. And so when I talk about the kind of farmer mythology, I mean that, yes, of course there were farmers and there are many people did form to some extent, but I think we like to hold onto this idea because we like to kind of imagine the roots of America as quite simple of just these people cultivating the land. And what I found interesting in the research with this one in particular is it was almost preemptively nostalgic by the time, you know, even Robert B. Thomas, who was the founding editor, comes out with his Almanac there already mills replacing the, the, the farm land where he grew up. And so I think it just speaks to how much things change and how we look to the past for comfort when things are chaotic.
Speaker 1 00:35:25 And the myth too you talk about in the book is it's mostly male centric and almost exclusively white one. That's not necessarily the case though, right.
Speaker 4 00:35:33 In terms of the writers
Speaker 1 00:35:35 In terms of old farmer's Almanac, but the idea this yeoman farmer was almost always a white man. We talked about one point by the figure it's like 12 million acres. One point is owned by African-American farmers.
Speaker 4 00:35:49 Yes. That was the, I think that comes from Dubois in the beginning of the 20th century. Yes. That's what I find interesting is that when you see kind of the depictions of the small farmer, it's always, you know, kind of a white man with his, with his, uh, with his tower, uh, force or what have you. And that was what was interesting in speaking to culinary historians about the range of people who were farmers. I mean, not even to speak with the many farms that were told by slaves, but also in new England where I'm from, there were plenty of free black folks, especially going into the 20th century for whom farming was their life. And I think that that often gets forgotten when we talk about, about our history.
Speaker 1 00:36:27 Now there's a history of, with the Merriam-Webster dictionary that I was not aware of, no upstair was one of America's first nationalists and wanting to instill a uniformity within our country through language, even at the expense of racial differences. What makes it especially interesting is the Webster's dictionaries resistance to Trump's administration. And you talked about the tweets that, uh, the Webster dictionary put out during his presidency at times though, the book though in his history is at odds with its original intentions.
Speaker 4 00:36:56 Yes. That was something that, that was the first book that brought me into what will become American. And was this the story of the dictionary? Because you know, like many journalists, I spend too much time on Twitter and I noticed that Merriam Webster had this really sassy kind of taking down, taking aim at Trump, but also Hillary Clinton in terms of their use of language. And it surprised me to learn that, you know, the founding author of the dictionary was this nativist was this, uh, you know, nationalist who wanted America to, to be this world power. It's hard to talk about comparisons in some sense, because 18th century nationalism is not what nationalism means now, but I would be curious what, what Webster would have to say about, about Merriam Webster's current incarnation, which I deeply enjoy
Speaker 1 00:37:39 As do I, there's a part of your book for note, you taught for Noah Webster that, uh, I'm based on my own experiences within a public education system, I think still seems very true today. A lot of American children, I think, are more familiar with the own short history of America than they do, or perhaps the Roman empire is too far to say that the American public education system is largely envisioned by, or was first envisioned by no Webster.
Speaker 4 00:38:06 I think he's certainly one of the, one of the earliest thinkers in America thinking about public education. He's certainly not the only one, but I would agree with you that he's hugely influential. I mean, his book, his speller before the dictionary sells something like a hundred million copies. And again, you really do see this ethos that he wanted us. Every school child should be more familiar with our short history. And he was speaking in the 1780s. Then they showed with the Roman empire and to a certain extent, that is definitely still true speaking from my public school education as well. Right.
Speaker 1 00:38:36 And it's shocking to you that you, you said the dictionary solidified the relationship that between Christianity and the American language as well.
Speaker 4 00:38:44 Yes, that was interesting. You know, he refers to himself as a born again, Christian, which was the truth for many people in the 19th century with the second great, great awakening. He has this moment where he's writing the dictionary and he says, God comes down and speaks to him. And he goes on these wildly kind of on scholarly searches for an original language. But especially when you look at the 1820 dictionary, all of the definitions are imbued with God, whether it's the definition for love, which he somehow relates back to the book of Genesis. And it, what was interesting to me is when I interviewed, uh, Peter, so Gillespie, who was one of the editors, the dictionary now, he said that is one of the books that Christian homeschoolers continually ask him if they will reprint because they want to use it to educate their children. Now,
Speaker 1 00:39:29 That's funny, that's a really unique, um, speak of unique. Um, the autobiography, the autobiography of Ben Franklin was, uh, you quoted Carla Mulford and saying that he had a power in certain, both American nativists and recent immigrants alike as a mystical civic person where different people could identify themselves in Ben Franklin. I was wondering to talk about, what do you think was the secret behind Franklin success? And people gravitate towards him and seeing themselves in him and his work about a biography.
Speaker 4 00:40:01 That's a great question. I think a lot of it is his power as kind of a PR man, one of his lesser known skills, because he's such a well-accepted brand to us that we don't see kind of all that he did behind the scenes to make it that way. And I think the autobiography is, is a great example of that. People relate to him because he was so many things. He was this great performer. He was this chameleon. And so throughout his life, he was a scientist and a diplomat and a scholar and a businessman. And I think because he comes from the bottom and works his way up, people on both ends of the spectrum, choose something to believe in. And Franklin,
Speaker 1 00:40:38 You have an interesting insight I noted from about in your book, but I mean, it's about self-help books in general that I liked. And the quoted here it's in some ways the most American genre of literature, since it connects personal achievement, what the good of the group, while situating both the problem and solution within the individual itself. That's, we're going to talk about that.
Speaker 4 00:40:57 Yeah. Thank you. If this was something that came out of researching and speaking to some, some, uh, academics who study, who studied self-help and it is that, cause I think one of the things that self-help does that really comes out in the American story is this idea that if you fail or if you succeed, you deserve it. And I think, uh, in some ways self-help does embody that because it says, you know, we don't really have a social strong social safety net. If you're going to succeed or you're going to fail, maybe you have the help of some close friends or your community or these that you can buy for an affordable price. And I think that that is, uh, both motivating and a little bit frightening.
Speaker 1 00:41:42 I, uh, before reading this, I was not familiar with Catherine Beecher and I was if to talk about her personality and what led her to write a treaties on domestic economy and her solution for women in her time was to elevate the status of domestic life as a profession.
Speaker 4 00:41:58 Yes, yes. So she is a fascinating woman and even her sister, you know, the famous Harriet Beecher stows, it's something to be effective. I found her strange, nervous, visionary, and to a certain extent unstable. And I think that about sums it up, but she has this idea, which is in some ways, I think kind of empowering for its time and a little bit radical, the idea that, okay, maybe women in the 1840s are not going to enter men's professions, but we can make the home a profession and her idea. She was thinking that people could have doctorates of, of home economics. You know, the term didn't yet exist, but I think the term would not have existed if not for Catherine Beecher, arguing that this was a real, not just an art, but a science to people home.
Speaker 1 00:42:42 I want to, I'm going to ask you now about Emily post on her work. She was a former socialite who turned to understand the upper-class trappings into a guide for etiquette. But now I think she hit a nerve though on the culture of her day, stressing about the value of table manners and where you can discuss about, um, how our book offered social clarity at a time when maybe that was, um, not really transparent perhaps.
Speaker 4 00:43:06 Yeah, it's definitely. So, I mean, the book comes out in 1922 and we're just kind of the, the midst of the roaring twenties. And I think in some ways people thought, oh, manners are going out the window. And I think that was partially some of her motivation and writing book, but, you know, for instance, F Scott Fitzgerald was a huge fan of the book and he said it would be fascinating to write a play of manners, uh, based on this. And I think that speaks to some of its power. I kind of see like a great Gatsby figure reading etiquette and saying, okay, you know, it might take some work, but if I memorize 400 rules about where to put forks, I can convince people that I'm of their same status. And to a certain extent, I think that that's how people were using it or were trying to use it. We don't think of etiquette as a social tool, but I think people really did use it as a way to become upwardly socially mobile. And that's why it was both the best seller and one of the most frequently stolen books at libraries.
Speaker 1 00:44:02 And you, you talked with them was you contacted the great, great grandchildren, Emily post, which I loved as well. My favorite parts of the book, actually, I was wondering, you discussed how, despite the background Emily pose, they're very laid pack. I think he said that, um, I I'm kind of blanking on the name for daughter or a great granddaughter, but she did pot every day and she was just really cool. She was late when you first got to meet her so we can talk about it.
Speaker 4 00:44:25 Yeah. They were amazing. They were so fun. You know, that was it's funny. You said that this is one of my favorite chapters to write, and that was one of my favorite days of the research. They were, they were late and she shows up with this rescue dog that she just got and she's got her hair up and clip and, and yes, she, she, um, she smoked pot every day for cannabis etiquette. And, you know, I'm in with my oppressed slacks and my shirt and thinking like, wow, this is not what I was expecting, but it's really refreshing. And really that they've, they've kind of continued with the brand. And she said, you know, we still are interested in tradition and putting people at ease, which in some ways was Emily Post's first goal. But, you know, as she said, if something's no longer useful to us, we got to move on.
Speaker 1 00:45:06 Moving on. Um, speaking of Dale Carnegie, uh, the author of how to win friends, influence people. I would think we a person who radiated just incredible charisma and confidence with a book with that title, but I was shocked, discovered he was horribly self-conscious and had severe anxiety worrying what others thought of him for a person that was dubbed the father of self-help move. And I thought that was interesting.
Speaker 4 00:45:30 Yes. It really endeared me to him because I had always sort of associated his book with CEOs and MBAs and people who were kind of smooth talkers. And I was surprised to learn that, yeah, he had this really brutal life of brutal upbringing. He grew up kind of dirt poor at the turn of the 20th century. And he remembers, you know, having a burn there, hogs who died of cholera every year and you know, being in debt. And then he keep in a very, what I found to be a very Dolly partner kind of moment. He's commuting to college on horseback because his parents can't afford the $1 a year room and board. And so it was, it was fascinating to me that he, he does, he realizes that kind of the antidote to shame his charm and his self-confidence. And if you get other people talking about themselves, they're not going to notice what you're wearing they're to not gonna notice that your clothes are patched. And I thought there was something really kind of pointed a graceful way.
Speaker 1 00:46:21 And you just touched on this, but his lesson, a lesson from chronic disease life, that's absent from how to win friends and influence people, was his persistence and willingness to succeed.
Speaker 4 00:46:30 Yes, I think, and I wish he had made that more explicit in his book, but so much of what made him a success was his willingness to fail. He, you know, he was a traveling salesman and he sold bacon and Lord, and he sold cars and he lived in his cockroach infested apartment. And I think that that is part of the American story that we don't tell quite as often. But it's important is that a lot of the times what becomes, what comes before success is failure after failure after failure, just this willingness to get up and try again.
Speaker 1 00:46:59 Totally. And I want to move on quickly. There's a lot of material in this book. So I try to touch as much of these of these works as I could. Um, Betty Crocker's picture cookbook, there was a twisted, bizarre reason behind the success. You talk about it. It raised the stakes of, I think, domestic life for a lot of women and that they there's a binary outcome, where if you could only, you had to either make a good meal or a bad meal and amend the difference between having a violent husband or a happy husband.
Speaker 4 00:47:31 Did you have that one was a little brutal? Cause there, there are parts of Betty Cocker that I find interesting and sometimes even weirdly empowering, but that was a tough one, but the first broadcaster, Betty crocker, she says something to the effect of, you know, if you fill them in the stomach with soggy boiled potatoes to the cabbage, is it any wonder that he goes out and gets in a fight? Like we should be happy if he's just mad at us? Uh, so I think it's, yeah, it's rough. I think it does speak to the extent to which homemaking was, you know, raised to greater Heights and you see it become even more of an imperative when women are dealing with strange budgets during the depression. And then when the Homefront war effort becomes a question of life or death. And so the homemaking in the mid century really shifts in terms of its power.
Speaker 1 00:48:19 There's a line you quote from everything you always want to know about sex, but were afraid to ask that. I, I thought it was ridiculous. And I wanted to ask you about,
Speaker 4 00:48:29 There's a lot of ridiculous,
Speaker 1 00:48:30 Oh, well this one kind of took the cake for me, Dr. Ruben, really? He says this in the book and I want to clarify, he wanted guide. You wanted guys readers with their sexual organs, into the space, age, to a place where orgasms are playful and Coca-Cola was the best vaginal douche. Is that really what he talks about in the book? And you say this in the book and I was like, I got to ask you about this.
Speaker 4 00:48:52 It is what he talks about is a book. And I feel as a public service announcement, I should say that Coca-Cola is a vaginal douche can kill you as I read about it in my research. But yeah, it's just a note to listeners, but yeah, it's interesting. And I think it speaks to just how much people's understanding of human sexuality has changed even since the sixties and the seventies, you know, he was a psychiatrist and so many of his views were kind of Victorian and Freudian and their attitudes towards sex and not very scientific as, as we see.
Speaker 1 00:49:24 Yeah. I mean, this was just published though in 19 71 69
Speaker 4 00:49:29 Became a huge bestseller in the seventies. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:49:33 So not that long ago. Really. Um, my last question for you is you draw an interesting parallel between new age philosophy and Donald Trump. You talk a little bit about how Norman Vincent Peale was Trump's childhood, uh, pastor, and it left an indelible impact on him on having relentless, positivity and unflinching self-confidence even times in the face of contrary evidence. How do you think this embody the character Trump?
Speaker 4 00:50:01 Yes. In some ways I was surprised, but in some ways it made a lot of sense to me because when you look at Norman Vincent Peale, who's famous for positive thinking. A lot of the idea is that it doesn't matter what's happening around you. All that matters is your belief in yourself. And eventually you will attract good things to you. And so in a certain sense, people become kind of loot. No amount of outside input can change that if that's your foundational belief. And so I think it goes a long way in explaining Trump's character and this kind of unflinching belief in himself that can at times be hard to fathom,
Speaker 1 00:50:38 Right? That is the end of our interview. I've been talking with Jess McHugh, the author of American cannon in unexpected us history in 13 best selling books. Jess has been great talking to you. This was a wonderful raid.
Speaker 4 00:50:51 Thank you so much. I had a lot of fun.
Speaker 1 00:50:53 And now this
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