Speaker 0 00:00:34 You're listening to right on radio on K 90.3, FM and streaming live on the
[email protected]. I'm Josh Weber
Speaker 2 00:00:42 And I'm, excuse me. I'm Dave Feig. And this evening I will be interviewing in just a second Gordon, Henry author of the book of poems, white clay, red exits, and distant others.
Speaker 3 00:00:54 And in the second half of the hour, I will be, uh, this is Liz Oz. By the way, I will be interviewing Christian Johnson, a former host of write on radio for many years ago, who has written a book called fearless about, uh, it's a young adult book about, uh, a girl and a dog,
Speaker 0 00:01:15 All this and more. So stay tuned to write on radio. Hello Gordon. Are you there?
Speaker 4 00:01:43 I'm here. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:01:44 Okay, great.
Speaker 2 00:01:45 Great. Hi Gordon. This is Dave. Welcome to
Speaker 4 00:01:48 Hi, Dave. Our,
Speaker 2 00:01:50 I need some headphones. <laugh> Hey Gordon. I'm getting some headphones on right now and then I can be able to hear you better. How does that sound? All right, here
Speaker 4 00:01:59 We go. That sounds good. Okay. That sounds good.
Speaker 2 00:02:00 Once again, welcome to the program right on radio. And you come to us from Michigan via holy cow, press in Duluth. Uh, we love our local publishers, Minnesota publishers here at right on radio and we especially like holy cow. So, um, welcome again. And, uh, I tell you what, before we get started and have you do a reading Gordon? Could you, uh, yes, maybe, uh, tell us a little bit about your background as a writer and how you came to poetry.
Speaker 4 00:02:28 Sure enough. Yeah, well, um, I, I, uh, started writing pretty early, I guess you could say I was, I was writing for quite a while long, a long time just after I got outta high school. I started writing, um, just informally though. I'd never had any training. Um, and I didn't really show anything I'd written to anyone for about seven years. So I was just sort of, huh, writing down a journal kind of notes and things. And I took a creative writing class and, uh, when I was an undergraduate student at a school in Wisconsin in, um, and then that sort of set the fire. I got a degree actually, an undergraduate degree in business management, but I knew I wanted to write. Right. Uh, and so I just continued with that degree and I got into a few masters in creative writing programs, um, and decided to enroll at Michigan state since they offered me a fellowship based on a, a manuscript I submitted for entry into the masters program. So cool. That's sort of the background, but my family's from the white earth reservation in Minnesota. Yeah. Um, from many generations back, um, I lived there briefly when I was, was growing up and, um, so Minnesota's sort of inside me from the, the stories of my family and from the times that I was there, uh, I carry it in, oh, that's in memories and also in the stories of my family
Speaker 2 00:03:44 And speaking of stories, uh, you've written more than poetry. You've written very successfully, uh, some fiction too.
Speaker 4 00:03:51 Yep. I started out actually my first publications though, that I published a few poems here and there, my first publication, um, in the 1990s, the light people was a novel sort of experimental novel, which I used a lot of techniques of poetry to try to deliver a longer manuscript with inter nested stories. And that, um, sort of got me off in writing though. I'd been writing poetry before that. Um, so yeah, I've, I've published fiction, um, scholarly essays, uh, uh, written, uh, short stories. Uh, so I, I branch out a bit. You can tried my hand in a little songwriting though. I haven't done anything. Um, very public with that.
Speaker 2 00:04:32 Yeah. That, that's interesting. I was gonna ask you about music and your poetry, but let, before we get into your work, let's hear some of it. Um, do you have a poem in particular? You'd like to start with this evening?
Speaker 4 00:04:42 Sure. I could start. I could start with one from the new collection. Of course matters. White clay. REDX it's just in others. Yes. This is called relative X, a white clay tabernacle of grief of belonging, unwrap parcels of lost joy survival school books margins with poorly drawn, broken hearts, empty mirrors, wash basin, and rear view, useless time pieces worn down to a last hour and interval less than a stop. Second tobacco ties bowls of beads for unmade giveaway, Thunderbirds BIA, check stubs, a glass ashtray. Your mother threw at some deer hunter shadow of betrayal in the doorway, a hissing cassette recording of ring of fire sung by the army vet face on the drunk punch wall who waved the gun at us last Christmas, then set fire to his own childhood regalia. There's an unblessed host in there too. A book of matches from some white bar and Walker park rapids or Wade Dina, a poorly developed photo of Alon from Winka. A page lifted from the invisible musician, a baseball cup, a Kennedy half dollar from a confirmation sponsor, an legible prescription for persistent pain, the dried white Grum wedding flour, a bullet from the pistol. Your aunt threw into the white clay river. After your grandfather died a singer's drumstick from the drum with only one living singer left.
Speaker 2 00:06:31 Thank you. That was Gordon Henry reading from spirit matters, winter clay, red exits distant others, a great poem to begin with, uh, for a lot of reasons, uh, harks back to, uh, some time in your life I believe. And, uh, Minnesota's in there of course. And, uh, I, I tell you, this is a great example of the first question I was gonna ask you, Gordon, which is your poems for me. I'm gonna call them images, but I'm not a scholar because all I see are just beautifully described and, uh, detailed pictures after picture, after picture, I just feel images. The words are perfect in that regard. Um, and sort of an uneasiness, I'll just say in terms of the structure, that is to say, you read this perfectly, but if I were to read this cold out loud, I might not know where to start or stop where to take the breath where the next idea begins because, um, your subject sometimes begins and end at the end of a line. Uh, and, uh, so reading that you, you, you can't nor you should, I'm talking too much now read these poems too fast. Um, but you can't, you need to slow down, take the words in and, uh, listen to you. So, um, Hey, there's a question in there somewhere.
Speaker 4 00:07:51 <laugh> yeah. <laugh> yeah. I, I, I think, I think you're right that I, I, I think my poetry can be characterized in a lot of ways as images, poetry, which really relies on imagery, but perhaps as much on the juxtaposition of images as they create sort of new associations through that imagery. And, and so, um, what you're saying about the way the poem looks on the page and the way that I read it, it does, it does sort of speak to the idea that each image will lead to a line in a way that, um, perhaps perhaps a regular speech patterns or thought patterns might not mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, so poetry allows us to explore the ways different phrasing. I'm gonna, I'm gonna say that I'm, I'm sort of using phrases and the way that different phrases, um, work with each other to, uh, to build image upon image, and then just create a sort of an effect or feeling or emotion, perhaps
Speaker 2 00:08:48 It's very powerful. Uh, did you come to this? Did you develop this, uh, this sort of style of writing? When did it happen? How did it happen?
Speaker 4 00:08:58 Um, I, I'm not really sure. I think it's something that, that came pretty naturally to me when I started thinking about, um, some of the images of, of my life, some of the things that I sort of fictionalized as images, you know, memories and all is a hundred percent reliable, or even sometimes 50%, depending on who you are, I guess. But, uh, we, you know, just, just the idea that the memory can evoke some situation, even though it might be broadly cast as a kind of fictional memory. Um, I think, you know, that's something I've always been engaged with. I mean, I, I, I've always been sort of taken by things. I see, um, the, the, the tone of, uh, the images. I see the things that I hear the way phrases come out. And so I think I try to work through that in writing. And I think even my pros, my, my latest pro is very much like that as well. It's image based, and it really moves through these phrases and stages of phrasing.
Speaker 2 00:09:55 Uh, there seemed to be illusions to the past in this poem to memory, uh, to what did it may seem obvious that people might think poets, um, look to their memory and their experiences all the time to write poems, but I'm not sure that's always the case. Uh, but tell us about what motivates this book, which by the way, I'll note to readers for a typical poetry book, it's, it's a bit longer than most, uh, really has like three books in it, uh, sections, um, white clay, red eggs, it's just others and, uh, which is wonderful. It's a great bonus. There's a lot of good working here. How did this collection take shape?
Speaker 4 00:10:35 Well, I started writing some of them quite a while ago, and I, I had these, uh, these little as my teacher used to say, sweets of poems, you know, like, uh, part parts of poems and, and things that I'd been thinking about for a long time, some of the memory based, but also sort of built on just fragments of memory that expanded out into more like little micro stories. What I like to call sort of shadow boxes or shadow spheres of memory that create little smaller stories. Mm-hmm, <affirmative> when my editor first read this, he said, you know, at first he didn't quite connect with it. And then he said, well, I see you're kind of doing little stories with poetry in a way too, sort of image stories. And so, um, that was part of it. But, but as I, as I kept writing, um, parts would come to me at different times, even when I was driving.
Speaker 4 00:11:24 I mean, I will admit that I, I typed some in, in my phone app on my text, uh, a notes app and I, and then I revised them once I put 'em on paper. Yeah. Um, but it, it, it came to me in these stages and you're right. You're absolutely right about there's different books within it. Um, I struggled with that. I actually cut out a lot of material as well and talked to another publisher before holy cow, who, uh, also wanted to publish it, but I wasn't feeling quite like I had the structure where I wanted wanted it. So I tried to organize it around the images of water and rivers as sort of being these separate things that separated different sections, and then came back to the rivers, um, as part of the imagery of it, that sort of held it together, thematically, I hope.
Speaker 2 00:12:08 Right. Right. Uh, and I should know to listeners also, there's humor in here. There's all of life in here. Uh, there's one particular, oh gosh, I wrote it down. Oh gosh, Gordon. It, it, it is a poem about water and every, oh yeah. Every word you could imagine. And, uh, I found myself smiling and, and openly chuckling a couple of times. It's, it's, it's an amazing sort of poem, uh, and, and stretches the boundaries of the definition of poetry too. Like, like a lot of good poetry does. So, uh, there's a lot going on here. We're almost midway point Gordon let's re let's listen to another poem.
Speaker 4 00:12:47 Sure. I'll turn to one of those river poems that I mentioned. Good. If, uh, I'm gonna to, I've got a bunch of markings in my books for my reading tomorrow, tomorrow night. So, um,
Speaker 2 00:12:58 Yeah. We wanna mention that too.
Speaker 4 00:13:00 So I was trying to imagine what a river, you know, might say to us, you know, that sounds kind of like a simplistic idea, but, uh, this poem is called the river tells sinks to us sleeping Fox on the right bank before Willow low flying Crow across ever flowing glisten over our many faces, leaping autumn spawn the language of strangers, upstream something about a moon cast, echo of a singer on a bridge, a Canto of blown smoke with a syntax of floating bodies and undisclosed submersible consonants. This is where you may swim. This is where you must not a silent swirl here. A man and a woman on a red blanket embankment together, a woman looking into Stiller water for a past among floating leaves. I have taken children. I have delivered relatives downstream from portages and dams, a mother with an offering to always every day, dear lake sunrise, we have accepted another small craft washed out bear tracks with the wake of a white canoe early moon at the bow late sun stern tales of missing bodies and boats turned over.
Speaker 4 00:14:25 Log rolling narratives, ice jam explosions, torches, and Spears, the lunge of brown fish, their sun streamed variant color, the pull of line, a stone throw splash underwater, gleam of small change. The entry of face wash hands, a skimmers touch beneath a dragonfly circle. The sand lens of a cannon cares by fingers of weed. The hardness of protruding rock at hard stopping rapids, a tuber beer can flying towards the two blue Heron. Priested shore, a hand on a lantern drawing nearer to this voice. A child looking to cross an archipelago of stones, a wine soap teenage poet from the left bank, cursing loneliness, a leather notebook turning over in Cedar leaf rapids words, illegible a few Unbound pages, separating a Zodiac picture, pouring star tailed myths into all we witness in slow, continuous passing
Speaker 2 00:15:37 Ladies and gentlemen, Gordon, Henry reading from spirit matters, white clay read exits distant others. We mentioned music briefly earlier. Gordon and music came to mind as I was reading some of these poems, uh, maybe rhythm. I'm not sure which it was, but it came to mind. And, uh, I want, I was, I was wondering if you were thinking about music or musical patterns when you were writing some of these or were these formed as lyrics? Um, I heard music here.
Speaker 4 00:16:08 I'm sorry, go ahead. I
Speaker 2 00:16:09 Heard music here.
Speaker 4 00:16:10 Yeah. I, I think that music's sort of this internalized music of poetry and the, in the sound of words and the phrasing of words has always been something I've been interested in. If I was a better musician, I probably would've been a songwriter second, a visual artist first <laugh> because I do again, I do like images and I do like to sound mm-hmm <affirmative> of words and language. I think, uh, you know, what pushed me, pushed me over the, the cliff to be a poet, if that's the right way to say it is. Um, you know, I started listening to songwriters pretty young and, and, and they, they influenced me to try to just first I started writing with the patterns of songs I already knew and just filled in my own verses mm-hmm <affirmative> and then I just started writing poetry and, uh, and the way that I do now, or, you know, maybe something a little different back then, but moving toward what I'm doing now, mm-hmm
Speaker 2 00:17:00 <affirmative> do you have an audience in mind Gordon when you write these poems?
Speaker 4 00:17:05 That's a really difficult question. I, I like to think that, um, I, I, I can't say that I do, honestly. I think that when I write the poems, I, I just hope that somebody's reading, who's reading them can make the connections with the words, with the images, with the sort of, uh, extended meanings and connotations of the images and, and phrases in ways that I try to, when I read poetry, mm-hmm <affirmative>, I think everybody will bring their own, uh, past their own memories, their own ways of hearing and, and listening to poetry and reading it to poem. And that's really what I strive for. I'm I'm, I'm looking for, if there's an audience, a reader who who's willing to, to work with the way that I write and think about the way that I'm bringing about imagery, uh, to, to engage with the poet poetry in a way that, um, might be, might be, might open something up for them. Um, uh, I can't really say that. I, I just I'm, I just, I'm looking for a reader. That's open, I guess, you know what I'm saying? <laugh>, that's open to the possibilities of what, what I might be putting out there.
Speaker 2 00:18:13 Right. Uh, native themes, if, if I may, if that's, uh, are show up, uh, obviously, and, uh, uh, and I'm a non-native reader myself, um, but there's so much in here. Uh, there's, there's an element of mystery for me in that regard, because I don't know that world the way, you know, it mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, but, um, to your previous point and why I'm raising this is, these are poems that are, are open to readers. You, you ask for readers are open to the poems. I think the poetry is open to the readers, uh, uh, again, and, and I think it's in large part description of your, of description of nature we nature is everyone's right. Um, and let's talk about nature in that respect, in terms of inspiration for you and, uh, how it grounds you because it's appears to ground you.
Speaker 4 00:19:04 Yeah, I'll start by, was sort of an aggression from that question by, by mentioning that, um, one of the things that did inspire me was, uh, there's an honor, sinabi author named basil Johnston, who was, um, a speaker of the Anishnabe language and, uh, storyteller and a scholar and a writer. And he, uh, he once wrote a book called, uh, the Manou, uh, that he put out there that talked about the spiritual beings of the Anish una, and many of those spiritual beings had specific or particular kinds of relation to nature. And, uh, historically a lot of people have spoken about Nana Bo who, as a sort of central figure banish, una mythology, but, um, basil Johnson also brought in others. And one of the ones he talked about was job who was a, a unique kind of mythic figure in that, um, uh, the way Johnson put in his book was that Jabu would remain still for long periods of time.
Speaker 4 00:20:02 And so people thought there was something wrong with him because he was so still, and I was engaged with that. And it turns out in Johnson's interpretation that Ja was trying to communicate with people who have passed on. Wow. Um, and so it it's in that stillness that I wanna say that we pick up the things that sometimes poetry and imagery gives us, but also allows us to appreciate, uh, nature a and all of the things that are going on, uh, when we're engaged or immersed, I guess, is a better way of putting it in that natural world. Mm-hmm <affirmative> uh, so, so, uh, that, that's one way that I tried to think about this book is, um, with Chabo as sort of a, Hmm. Back character.
Speaker 2 00:20:46 Oh, that's interesting. Uh, it sounds like you write all the time, uh, you don't get up in the morning and work from six to eight and then go off to teach, uh, you you're writing on the way to work and, uh, all the time is that right?
Speaker 4 00:21:00 Yeah. I mean, I'm more sporadic. I, I mean, I know a lot of writers, especially people who write big books to fiction books, um, you know, they have a schedule and I did that with my novel, but my life has been so rich and, uh, fulfilling in so many other ways. I, I do have to write all the time I'm writing in my head. I'm putting things in my, when I'm writing on my computer. So mm-hmm <affirmative> yeah. I, I would have to say you're right. I'm writing all the time and if not writing, incubating, uh, um, even though I don't have a ton of books out there, I'm still always thinking about ways of turning things into writing art or, um, some kind of images.
Speaker 2 00:21:34 Sure. You're a teacher. Uh, do you teach poetry?
Speaker 4 00:21:39 I do. Um, I'm gonna be teaching a course in poetry at Dartmouth college, um, in a few weeks. Wow. And I teach it at MSU, so, um, yep. Uh, it's, it's just one of the great, uh, gifts in my life to be able to do that and to talk about poetry students and to get what, you know, they're picking up from poetry
Speaker 2 00:21:56 Too. I think sometime I, I like to have someone like you spend a whole show talking about teaching, writing and teaching poetry. Um, it sounds difficult <laugh> teaching someone to write poetry, but, uh, that,
Speaker 4 00:22:14 Yeah, yeah. It, it is in many ways. I, I think it's difficult, but it's, it's, it's part of, again, sort of being open and letting go of, um, you know, what you think you might know, and just, just letting yourself free up there and, and think about things in specific ways, in very, uh, speci specific things that might have happened rather than, you know, big, big words, um, that are more abstract though. Those can work too sometimes. Sure,
Speaker 2 00:22:39 Sure. Uh, actually got the two minute warning Gordon. I, I wanna talk about what's happening tomorrow night. Um, can you tell us what's going on here?
Speaker 4 00:22:48 Yeah. I have a reading at Bley gallery, um, sponsored by Birch bark books. And, um, I, I, as I think about that reading, I want, I want to, um, recognize the artist who do the cover art for the book, Jim, Jim denimy, um, wow. Was a great honor to have him do the cover art. And so we're being at, we'll be in that space where some of his work had been, uh, shown as well. And, um, but yeah, it's tomorrow night, 7:00 PM. Um, I'll be there, there'll be books for sale, but, and I think H air Ridge is gonna be, um, conducting a little conversation back and forth.
Speaker 2 00:23:20 Oh, she's great. With
Speaker 4 00:23:21 Time.
Speaker 2 00:23:22 Yeah. Well, that's wonderful. The cover is striking by the way. Um, it's, it's a bonus. You're getting a, a nice big book of poems and, uh, a beautiful, beautiful cover. Ladies and gentlemen, we have been speaking with Gordon Henry author of current volume of poetry. Spirit matters, white clay, red exits distant others just out from holy cow, press up in Duluth and Gordon will be, uh, speaking tomorrow evening. Uh, thanks Gordon. It's been a real treat.
Speaker 4 00:23:52 Thank you, David. I appreciate you invited me on and, uh, I look forward to the reading tomorrow night and, uh, keep up the good work with your show.
Speaker 2 00:23:59 Awesome. Thank you, sir. All
Speaker 4 00:24:00 Right, bye. Take care. Yep.
Speaker 2 00:24:03 And now this,
Speaker 3 00:24:33 Kristin, are you there?
Speaker 5 00:24:36 Yes. Can
Speaker 3 00:24:37 You hear me? Yes. I can hear you. Uh, we're gonna be speaking with, uh, Kristen F Johnson, author of fearless and a former host of right on radio too. Uh, so welcome. Um,
Speaker 5 00:24:49 Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 00:24:50 I am wondering if you happen to have a copy of the book with you and could do a, a brief reading for us.
Speaker 5 00:24:58 I do. And I have something picked out.
Speaker 3 00:24:59 Oh, great. Great. Go right ahead.
Speaker 5 00:25:03 Okay. Thanks Liz. All right. This is just a little bit into the book. After our main character meets a couple of friends and they are off riding their bikes, uh, in the St. Peter countryside. And I'll start there. The trees were sick, not like neighborhood trees that were evenly spaced out because they had been planned. These were more wild leading in every direction and thick with leaves and underbrush. I wish I was wearing a camouflage hat with twigs and leaves sticking out of it and had green paint on my face. I wished I had a camel shirt like Oscars, but at least my fearless t-shirt was a shade of green. It would have to do fallen branches and twigs snapped beneath my feet. I slowed my steps to silence them and Oow hooted from somewhere hidden in the maze of green above me. I thought owls were only out at night.
Speaker 5 00:26:02 Oscar whispered. I said a bead of sweat formed on my forehead, traveled down my nose and then hung off the tip. I shook it off. They are known to be an nocturnal. Nikki said, shut up. I whispered angrily. You shut up. Nikki said loudly. The sound of barking made us both shut up. I leaned forward trying to determine the direction of the barking. Where was that coming from? It didn't sound like one dog. It sounded like a whole pack of dogs. I stepped forward again and the boys followed my legs ached from my bike injuries by I pressed onward. We sneaked around the grouping of trees and came upon a makeshift path, dirt and brush trampled by car tires. Inside that area, a clearing showed a tall dilapidated red barn. It was old with paint ships and boards missing. It leaned slightly to the left toward a smaller, equally weathered ranch house with dirty paint, missing screens and shingles hanging off the roof.
Speaker 5 00:27:08 In the back, I saw the hint of a small shed and the rusty red truck with piles of dog food bags in the back. Another rusted car was up on blocks in the yard with the guarded tires, sitting in the weeds with the old trees. It created a creepy scene. Whoever had driven the truck was nowhere in sight. Country music played from a radio and sounded like it was coming from the house Oscar motion that we should turn back. I scowled him and shook my head. No Nicky motion that he had to pee for Pete's sake. These two, I drew my hand across my neck in the universal signal to knock it off. I motioned us forward and pointed at the barn. Oscar gave me a right this instant motion to leave, but I shook my head. No, again, no way was I leaving without finding out what all that barking was about.
Speaker 5 00:28:02 I ran from the open area and behind the barn, the boys followed. We were in this together, whether they liked it or not, we were all trespassers. As we got closer to the barn, it looked like a house of cards that could top what, any minute the flats were far enough apart in places that you could see right through them. I pressed my face up against the boards and squinted, like a pirate was dark inside, a large industrial fan word from one corner, which muffled the barking a little, but it was still evident like a harsh choir of staccato notes through my peephole in the board, I could see someone going down the aisles and doing what, maybe feeding the dogs from the sound of the tin tin of dry ki landing and dog dishes, the fan worrying, and the dogs barking. Some whimpering likely covered up any twigs snapping noises we might be making, but still I found myself on tiptoes using farther down that farm wall until I bumped into handle into a handle. It was a back door.
Speaker 3 00:29:10 That's Kristen Johnson, reading from her book, fearless, a young adult book. And there are two, three lines in this book and the dog through line. Let's do that one second, because I wanna talk about the other three lines first, which is about a daughter who has a mother, uh, deployed in Afghanistan. And I'm wondering, uh, what, uh, I don't know if it inspired is the right word, but what brought you to writing about that?
Speaker 5 00:29:38 Yeah, thank you for asking that Liz and, um, thanks for having me on right on radio tonight. Um, what really inspired me was, uh, because I had started this do, uh, this book in 2007 and that was, um, during the Iran and Afghanistan, um, wars that were going on. And I just felt like I was so, um, moved and kind of upset about what was going on that I, um, I really wanted to include a war through line in my book. And, um, the way that this actually connected over with the dog is that, um, I had a rescue dog also at the time, and she was rescued from, um, at Indiana puppy mill. And she was an older yellow Labrador, uh, who had PTSD from living at the puppy mill. And she would flinch every time I would move to quickly or even like move a piece of paper by her or come too close to her and it would make her jump.
Speaker 5 00:30:46 Uh, and when she dreamed as you know, dogs do, I wondered if her dreams were different than what we envision other dogs would dream about such as chasing squirrels, uh, that a happy dog might dream about. And I wondered if she had nightmares instead about being at that puppy mill. So I wanted to make her nightmares go away. So I created this, um, novel where the dog would get away from the puppy mill. And, um, I also wanted the puppy mill owners to get what was due to them for mistreating of the dogs. Um, so basically I, I connected the fact that this dog I had had PTSD and had gone through sort of a war by being in this puppy mill mm-hmm <affirmative> to this war that was going on and we get all these veterans back and they've gone through a war and they have PTSD. And, um, and that's why I kind of included both of those, um, in the book. And then there's also, um, this third thing with, um, the town of St. Peter, which also went through a sort of war, um, by being struck by all these tornadoes back in 1998. So, um, they all just kind of converged together and, uh, sort of made their own little perfect storm.
Speaker 3 00:32:03 And, uh, you also have a young man who has PTSD, um, talk more about PTSD. Did you, uh, do a lot of research about that or are you, are you familiar, uh, with it through, uh, a family member or how did you come to know about PTSD and how it affects people?
Speaker 5 00:32:24 Yeah, thank you for asking that, um, uh, PTSD. I don't personally, um, suffer from that, but, um, I was teaching college writing at Metro state university, which is a, a local university here in St. Paul for people that might be out of town. And, um, I had quite a few veterans from the wars actually that were students of mine in my writing classes, and we would have Memor more assignments and, um, and I encourage some of them to, um, you know, use their memoir assignments as, uh, sort of, um, something therapeutic for them to write about their experiences, um, to maybe help, uh, you know, transform their relationship to negative experiences by putting them on the page. So, uh, during the, that time, when I was teaching some of those students, I actually have two of them that I think at the back of the book that I sat down with and talked extensively with about PTSD.
Speaker 5 00:33:31 Uh, and, and that really helped me just understand things a lot. Um, one of the, uh, men that I talked to was, um, Samuel ver deja. He was one of my students and he explained to me, cuz I didn't really understand it cuz you can't really understand that unless you're experiencing it, I guess. Um, but he explained a lot about how just hearing fireworks or something like that could put somebody right back in that scene where they feel like they're, um, in the war zone again. So I, I did incorporate that in the story. And one of the scenes with Sam who is a recent, um, veteran of Afghanistan, who's just returned. So he's just a young man that, uh, Jesse, our main character, um, talks with during the story. And, um, and she actually sees him go through one of these episodes and, um, tries to be there for him and, um, you know, show him kindness and empathy.
Speaker 3 00:34:38 And how did you write about, uh, Afghanistan and PTSD and also the mom being, uh, deployed in Afghanistan? How did you write that off from a 10 year old point of view?
Speaker 5 00:34:55 Oh, that's a great question. <laugh> um, point of view is always just such a challenging thing and I've been writing for, um, uh, you know, writing forever, but like writing seriously since 2003. And I had started this book in 2007. Um, I, one of the things that I think is very challenging about writing is the point of view. So the question is like, whose story is this? You know, there's multiple characters in here. You could say it's the dog's story, or you'd say it's the veteran's story or, you know, who is it? But I chose that this, this book is Jessie's story and um, her mom is deployed in Afghanistan during the story. And so the question is, okay, are you gonna write this in first person? Or, you know, third person point of view, that type of thing. Mm-hmm <affirmative> I decided, um, uh, to put it in first person and that I would have it be from Jesse's point of view instead of, um, an OmniGen narrator.
Speaker 5 00:35:58 So we can only know what Jesse sees and she's in every scene and basically, um, it has to be authentic to what she would notice. So when you're thinking about a point of view character, you can think about like, okay, well, what would she notice? Like it's not gonna be the same things that an adult would notice or think about. So it's really a trick to try to stay in that point of view and you really have to put yourself inside the character. Um, and then you really want the, your readers to be able to feel that too, like they're experiencing this through that character. Um, and, and then they get to go along on her journey.
Speaker 3 00:36:41 Uh, we'll talk more about that in a second. Uh, what prompted the, uh, see, you've talked a little bit about this already, but what prompted the, uh, puppy mill topic for the book and, uh, again, some of Jesse's reaction, uh, I don't know, I, I don't wanna give anything away, so I'll rely on you to give away what you wanna give away, uh, but you know, her reaction to it and what happens, uh, uh, how did the puppy thing come up and how did you research that? I mean, who, who, who did you go to and how did you find out more about that?
Speaker 5 00:37:17 Yeah, that's a great question. And, um, so it's like what are puppy mills? Um, they're, they're literally like something that they're manufacturing dogs like their own assembly line, so they breed dogs. So a dog mama could have many litters of PS. And the sad thing is that she has to say goodbye to each litter, you know, and often sooner than, um, the P should be taken away from their mom. And, um, a difference between a puppy mill and a legitimate breeder is that puppy mills are not treating the dogs well. And they often live in overcrowded conditions, surrounded by Philip malnourishment and they're being abused. And once the dog's life is ex expended, um, and it's no longer useful to the mill and can't, you know, birth anymore puppies, the dog is usually destroyed. Um, so I, I wanted us to come in like, who doesn't want to save somebody from that <laugh> um, but like I wanted us to come into the story and have, um, Jessie, you know, happen upon this dog who is in this circumstance and is about to, you know, be destroyed that's that's where we come into the story, um, Jessie, over hears that.
Speaker 5 00:38:47 And, uh, and then she has to decide in the moment if she's going to do something or not, you know, and, um, and that's kind of one of the things about where she learns to be fearless, you know, is what do we do in these moments when our character is tested or we have to make a decision about how we're going to act. Uh, so, so she chooses to act and that's, that's pretty early in the story, but, um, then she has to, you know, deal with the dog after that, which does present out quite a few challenges as well.
Speaker 3 00:39:24 So that's kind of humorous with hiding the dog and the den and, and so on <laugh> and grandpa, you know, kind of knowing what's going on, uh, without the revealing that to her, you know, it's kind of wink, wink, nudge, nudge, kind of a thing <laugh> Uhhuh. Um, how do you feel the two fit together? I mean, they definitely fit together in my mind that I'm just curious, uh, if that was a conscious decision to, uh, how to fit the two together, if it just kind of happened that way.
Speaker 5 00:39:59 Sure. Do you mean, um, Jessie and the, the puppy mills or,
Speaker 3 00:40:06 Uh, the, um, the PTSD and the puppy mill and Jessie, she feels kind of guilty. She thinks she stole the dog. And so, um, mm-hmm, <affirmative>, uh, just kind of the feelings that are rolling around in the book. And also I'd have to say some people, I don't think this, but some people might think these two, uh, topics are a little too serious for a young adult. I don't believe that. And I'm wondering, you know, how you feel about, about bringing these topics up to young adults and young adult, you know, fiction in general, um, bringing up serious topics in young adult fiction.
Speaker 5 00:40:43 Yeah. Thank you for mentioning that. Um, and asking me about that. I, I mean, okay, so here's one of the challenges, like I really care about all these topics, but then, you know, you have this other challenge of like, well, some kids love to read and some are reluctant readers and all, all those types of things. So like who, how would you get somebody to actually want to read about these topics? Well, there are many famous dog stories, so of course that is something that interests the kid. Oh, sure. But I think, yeah, I think one of the, um, bigger things was learning how to bring in some humor into the story. A and, uh, I've been told by young readers that are like 8, 9, 10, 11 years old. That's, that's kind of the sweet spot, even though I've had a lot of people, even older reading, um, the book, uh, such as one reviewer, it was kind of funny, uh, who put an Amazon review out, uh, Tom in Minneapolis.
Speaker 5 00:41:48 He said, I think this was great. And I'm 75. So it was kind of funny, but it's like, you get like all these different range of ages, but for the young readers, um, where, uh, this is considered middle grade. So technically, so to be ages eight to 12 mm-hmm <affirmative>, um, and that's really for marketers, so bookstores know where to put it on their shelves. Um, but, but really any, any age could read middle grade or, or young adults, um, books. So as far as, uh, the, the learning or somebody liking to read about serious topics, I've actually found that, um, the kids really love this story and it's more, it's like an adventure story, so they really wanna see what's gonna happen. And I think that's really up to the writer to keep people turning the pages. I mean, we've all bought books that we've set aside, you know, and it's like, gee, I spent 28 bucks on that book or whatever, and I don't feel like finishing it.
Speaker 5 00:42:47 So my, one of my challenges here was, Hey, I wanna write something people don't wanna put down. I've had a lot of, um, adults read this also and say, Hey, I read this in two days and I, or I stayed up late to read it and I, I wanted to keep reading it. Um, and you know, kids who've said, Hey, I, uh, I didn't want it to end. That was a great one. <laugh> but, um, I think just, you know, you can introduce serious topics, kids understand that there is, um, you know, dark things or are dark things in the world going on, but, but again, then like, what will they actually care about? Well, you know, they, they do care about people, you know, as, as, um, Jesse showed us in the book here, just all of the, um, empathy and kindness, she showed to Sam that young veteran who had the, who has a PTSD incident in the, the story related to fireworks going off.
Speaker 5 00:43:55 Um, you know, so that I feel rings true. Um, so they, they care about people and they know what kindness is. Kids know what, when things are unfair, um, they understand all those things and they deal with them every day in friendships and school. Um, and actually it's really interesting that you asked that too, because, um, I just listened to a podcast today. Uh, it was a New York times podcast, um, called the daily and they were talking about, um, uh, mental illness and PTSD in adolescent. Mm. And I really feel like, you know, if we had more stories like this, or people reading more things like this and, and getting more conversations going, it would actually help things more. Um, and, and help people, uh, bring issues to the surface and talk about them. So, I mean, when, when I write, I do like to write about things that have, um, substance, but, but I've also been told by kids like their favorite character is actually Nikki, because he's funny, you know, he adds some levity and that is something I that's one of the reasons I added that character into the book too.
Speaker 5 00:45:08 Um, so I think you have to have a balance, you know, like how, how are you going to keep the adventure going and interest and just balance the different elements in the story. But I think you can have one, um, that has a lot of substance like this. And I mean, one of the goals that I have in my writing is to write about things that are going to resonate after the story is done. So I'm hoping, you know, like you read this, I'm hoping you'll, you'll remember what it's about in a month or a year, or, or think about something in it. And that it'll resonate with you and other readers
Speaker 3 00:45:43 Talk about some of your other books. You've published quite a few books, uh, the day of disaster series and some other things, uh, uh, tell us about those so we can find them.
Speaker 5 00:45:54 Oh, sure. Thank you. Um, yeah, those books, uh, so fearless is my first trade paperback that I did, um, as where it was my own idea from start to finish mm-hmm <affirmative>, um, the other, uh, I've got nine other books for kids published, and those are books where, um, I wrote them on contract with the publishers. Uh, they're all available either through the publishers, um, learner publishing or Abdo publishing, um, learners, a local publisher done in downtown Minneapolis. And, um, they're available through their website, you know, or through, um, Amazon or a lot of other bookstores online. Uh, and, and they're available in school libraries and things like that too. And I really enjoyed working on all those series and it's such a great training ground to work with editors and, uh, work on deadlines and things like that.
Speaker 3 00:46:51 Were they all young adult?
Speaker 5 00:46:55 Um, three, thank you. Three of them are picture books. Mm-hmm, <affirmative> in this character matters series. And, um, and then, so that would be ages like four to eight. They're both. Um, three of them are in the day of disaster series and, um, each of those focuses on a natural disaster that could really occur and we're even seeing a lot of these types of things, but, but they go back many, many years as well. Um, so I, I wrote about, um, those are really fun. They're kind of, they're the size of those are, uh, 15,000 words each. And so they're, um, shorter than fearless. Um, fearless, I think is about 40,000 words. And, uh, but the day of disaster books, um, one is about a blizzard that happens in Northern Minnesota. Of course, I had to set it here. Um, <laugh> and that one has a dog in it as well.
Speaker 5 00:47:57 And then, um, and then one is set in Hawaii and it's called wall of water. And, um, that has to do with a tsunami. And then, um, the other one is called black blizzard, and that is a dust storm that overtakes a school bus. Um, when some students from speech tournament are coming back from the tournament. Oh, uh, yeah. And then the other three books that I have published are, um, three young adults research books. Um, so yeah, <laugh> so those ones are non-fiction, those were very, very extensively researched. Uh, one is on the endurance expedition, which is the Ernest Shackleton who did the last, um, polar Antarctic exploration. And, um, and that was right at the start of, uh, world war I, and then, um, the other second one was the orphan train movement. So that was very interesting. And there's, there have been fiction books written about that as well.
Speaker 5 00:49:05 So I think people are familiar with that now. Um, also very fascinating. And then I, uh, did a biography of HoChi men, the north Vietnamese president. And that was incredibly complicated because, um, I was interested in it because over his 70 year lifetime, uh, that included the Vietnam war. And I wanted to learn more about that. Cause I knew it was very complicated and, you know, um, just was kind of curious about it and it was, um, yeah, it was just a very, very challenging project. Um, but fascinating too. So those are the nine books that I, uh, published before fearless.
Speaker 3 00:49:55 We are sadly coming up on the end. I think I have time for a couple more questions. If we're brief about them, you and your acknowledgements, you talk about writing groups. Uh, why don't you, uh, tell us what, uh, writing groups have meant to you and why they're important.
Speaker 5 00:50:12 Thank you. Um, I think they're incredibly important. Uh, I started in, uh, a writing group in Egan at the library, which I think still is the, I think the group is still meeting mm-hmm <affirmative>, uh, it's every Saturday morning, an open group, so anybody can go to it. And, um, uh, it, I think being in a weekly group that was really good because it helped me form my habit of writing. So every week I'd have to bring something. So, um, and that is a lot of, writing's just like, when are you gonna get the words done on the page? How consistent can you be? And just getting things done. Um, over the years I've been in a few different writing groups that, um, have formed out of classes that I've taken at the loft, for example, and those have just been invaluable. And, um, just the relationships, the writing friendships that I've made over the years, um, you know, talk about the journey, not the destination.
Speaker 5 00:51:14 I mean, that's really a lot of what I've gotten out of this over the many years that I've been writing is just the, the close friendships that I've made with people. And, um, I'm currently in a group that meets weekly again. And I do think that that, that consistent having a consistent time where you can, um, in place where you can bring your work and, uh, get feedback is really helpful. And just having an audience for your work is really important. I think there, there are some writers who do not ascribe to this and they just write on their own until they send things into their editor. Um, but I really think that's probably more the exception. Uh, for me personally, I like to have, uh, a group that I'm working with.
Speaker 3 00:52:07 Well, we've been speaking with Kristen EF Johnson, author of fearless, a young adult novel about, uh, a girl and a dog. <laugh>, <laugh> briefly, it's much more serious than that, but, but that's a good way to put it, um, very, very briefly. What's next?
Speaker 5 00:52:27 Oh, thank you. Um, I am working on another middle grade novel that is set, uh, post world war II. That's based on a, uh, an incident that happened in my family back then. Uh, and when my mom was living in St. Paul, so I'm working on that right now. And, um, yeah, I, so in addition to that, I'm just promoting fearless and working on a lot of, um, uh, different projects. Um, my wife Alisa actually is upstairs listening to this and I appreciate all of her support throughout all of my writing, um, endeavors. And, and she, uh, she said something about fearless earlier today that I thought was really cool. She said, I think it's about a girl who meets a canine friend in science, her purpose. And I was like, oh my gosh, how did you summarize that? Because the book is so complicated. I think I have trouble like saying what it's about, you know? So I really appreciated that she came up with that. Um, yeah, so I'm just doing a lot of events. Um, is it okay if I just mention where people can find the book and,
Speaker 3 00:53:41 Well, actually we're, we're running out of time. I've got my next people out front. Uh, <laugh> trying to get in. Okay. Well thank you. But, uh, I'll let, I'll let you go for now. We've been speaking with Chris F Johnson, author of fearless. Thank you so much for coming tonight.
Speaker 5 00:53:57 Oh, thank you, Liz. It's a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 3 00:53:59 Okay. And now this
Speaker 6 00:54:03 Come join. K F I live at the state fair on labor day, Monday, September.
