Speaker 0 00:00:04 You are listening to right on radio on cafe 90.3 FM and screaming on the web on <inaudible> dot org. I'm Liz old tonight on rise on radio. We will be featuring another legacy interview. Join us as we dig deep into the archives of right on radio. She'll listen to one of our conversations from the past
Speaker 1 00:00:27 And I'm Josh in the last part of the hour. How Kaleah yang and award-winning mung American writer. She's the author of three memoirs and four children's books. Yang's literary nonfiction work has been recognized by the national endowment for the arts, the national book critics circle award that your coil prize, the Penn USA literary awards, the Danes literary peace prize and garner three Minnesota book awards. Her children's books have enlisted as an American library association, notable book <inaudible> honor, and a Kirkus best book of the year winter, a Minnesota book award in children's literature and the Heartland booksellers award all the, some more. So stay tuned terrain on radio.
Speaker 0 00:01:08 <inaudible>. Hi, Kaleah. Welcome to the station. This is Annie.
Speaker 2 00:01:17 Hello, Annie. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 0 00:01:20 Thanks. Well, I'm so excited to have you here today. I love so many of your books starting from the late home comer and the song poet on, but today we're here to discuss yang warriors, your new story book for young readers, which I think is a really unique and special project and is out now from the university of Minnesota press. Could you describe the young warriors briefly for, uh, anyone who hasn't got their hands on it yet?
Speaker 2 00:01:45 I would be happy to yang. Where is a story that I've been carrying inside of me for a long time? I was not one of them, but they were a group of time, including my older sister dog. When we lived in bond, me and I and refugee camp in Thailand in this place where there was little to do and little food, my sister and my cousins gathered and they trained for our day when they could save us when they could be of use to all of the, all of the children, the younger children in the camp. And so yang where yours is really this group of fearless children who taught me so much about courage. So much about taking the risks that are worth taking about generosity and compassion.
Speaker 0 00:02:25 I was so as I was reading this and chanted, when I got to the back of the book, and you mentioned the yang warriors, just like you were just saying, being real and members of your family. I think it just makes the story all the more powerful. And I was just curious since you were, you were kind of the little sprout when the story was happening. Um, did you interview any of your siblings or cousins when you were making this book?
Speaker 2 00:02:48 I did not. You know, every time I looked at my sister, I see that scar on her forehead and I'm reminded of the, of the incredible adventure or the incredible, incredible risk that they took. And by me directly to camp, when they left the camp parameters, knowing that if they were caught, there would be grave consequences to forage for wild greens for, for the younger children. And me knowing by me and I refugee camp, we got food three days out of the week. It was the Thailand was practicing a humane deterrence policy. And so when they did it, I couldn't quite believe it, but what they did change the way I saw them changes the way I see my sister and all of these many years later, I knew the story that I wanted to write in many ways. It was a gift. The first time she read this book, she couldn't quite believe Annie. She just sat down. She put her head in her hands and she said, all of those years you were paying such close attention.
Speaker 0 00:03:43 Oh my gosh. Wow. That is so beautiful that you got to then loop that back and show that power in that respect that your family was able to demonstrate you for you. That's so gorgeous. Additionally, another thing that's so powerful about this specific story is obviously this story is from your eyes, the eyes of little Kalia, and it uses that child-centric storytelling to discuss food insecurity and refugee experiences and other things that happened to a lot of children in the world, but aren't usually discussed in picture books. So I was just curious if you could tell me a little more about writing this story for this young audience.
Speaker 2 00:04:23 In many ways, I did not intend for this to be a part of the pandemic book. You know, this pandemic has been long in the space that this year, this is my third book to have come out. My second children's book, I had hoped that it would come out in a different kind of a time, but in many ways it's incredibly fitted. You know, it's, it's almost a perfect time children in this country and across the world have been going through so much this year, just like the children in the gang warriors, the adults thought by the, if they were protecting us, by telling us to stay within the parameters of the camp, to listen to the guards, to obey our elders so that we could, we could save ourselves for some future somewhere. But of course, like my children and so many other children in this period, it was also the children who were taking care of us.
Speaker 2 00:05:10 When I look at my own kids, Annie, throughout, across this year, it is their discovery of our yard across the seasons that has inspired me just as I know, the gang worriers inspired the adults around me. My grandma, even after this event happened, you know, every few years she would say to you remember when she didn't want me to forget, you know, I wasn't one of the young warriors, but she didn't want me to forget the taste of that stolen green, the forge green, the food that we weren't supposed to have, but somehow we were gifted with because of the courage of these 10 little people master made the Potbelly boy, you know, in his quote disciples. And so the story in many ways really spoke to me in the moment we're in, when I read it to my children and I'd read it to, to the schools, you know, virtually as well. I think the students resonate with this message because children have always had to have cared for us. There is no age limit tolerability to, to feel for and to, I think, believe that the, the emotions and the times for others.
Speaker 0 00:06:16 Yeah. And I think that this book is such a powerful demonstration of the way children are able to look at the world as it is and think about how it should be in a way that's so much less jaded and so much less fearful. Like the yang warriors obviously saw their family hungry and they saw their parents needing nourishment and they were, they were not jaded about the world. They were like, we're going to go fix this. And it's an absolutely amazing story to think about any time. But especially in this time, when a lot of people are experiencing challenges, including food insecurity, even whether it's because of unemployment or because of, um, anything else. So this picture book is illustrated by a fellow twin cities, creative who brings the cousin warriors to so much life. Like you just mentioned, potbellied me. Um, the drawings in the book are absolutely precious and they have this really nice tone where there are the, there's a rich greens, but there's also very, there's obviously the starkness of like the tents, the barbed wire, um, things like that. What was it like conveying the refugee camp experience to an illustrator and collaborating to bring the story to life.
Speaker 2 00:07:32 So this book is Billy House first, since Billy tells debut illustrated book on Billy on social media. And I've been doing this for a while and I started on the road to writing and I was just 22, I'm now 40 years old, the last maybe decade I've been looking for opportunities in my life to open up doorways for other creatives in the Hmong community. There aren't many most American illustrators in this country, but I knew that that was something that I wanted to do with my children's books. And so Billy towels, actually, my second, most American collaborator first was C writer for another children's book, the shared room also from the university of Minnesota press. Um, but I have saw Billy's work on social media and then I eat, I messaged him. I said, Billy, would you be interested in doing children's books? And immediately I got this enthusiastic response back.
Speaker 2 00:08:29 I knew that it was his first. So Billy would also have to like undergo an education, but Billy was up for the challenge. And so under the tutelage of Eric Anderson, my editor from the university of Minnesota press really embarked on this incredible journey. And Billy was born in America. Billy has never been in the camp. So for me, it was a process of doing a lot of research, historical research about his people and his history, but also very much in the different styles and techniques that he wanted to employ that would speak truthfully to his sensibilities as an artist. Yeah. It was an incredible experience to watch over the stretch of a year in some Annie to see a young artists come into being to see somebody in many ways, igniting a passion. I don't think Billy ever quite expected that this would be a part of his journey. And so in that way it was a wonderful gift. And I think Billy would say it was a wonderful gift in terms of his art, but also in terms of his heritage.
Speaker 0 00:09:28 Yeah. That's so amazing that you got to connect both on the creative level making this book, but also that you were reaching across the sides of a diaspora experience of like you physically came here and he's part of the generation that was born here and that bridge got connected both ways, which is really cool. And that I can tell a lot of work and thought went into the illustration, what the characters look like, what the area looks like. It's really cool that that got to be collaborative.
Speaker 2 00:09:59 It is. And it's wonderful because this is such a, in many ways it's such a complicated book because as these small children interrupt TG camp inspired by the warriors and the Chinese dramas, you know, um, and then of course for an American audience. And so not only are we traveling through time and space and different art forms, but we're, we're paying tribute to, I think the singular, um, aesthetics of a young, uh, creator person, Billy Tao at every point, he was like, am I, how does this feel? And I'm like, listen to yourself, believe this into yourself. And I'm just blown away by the art, the thoughtfulness of it, where the, where the culture is invited the cultural elements, but also in the spirit of fun that, that I think allows the spoke to, to fly a little bit, uh, you know, uh, on hard terrain, the terrain isn't easy, but because of beliefs are, we can fly in, in some parts of it in unexpected and delightful ways.
Speaker 0 00:10:55 Yeah. Just curious. Do you have any advice for someone who say sees someone's art that really speaks to their experience in a way that isn't really seen in as mainstream of a platform? Like for example, you seeing Billy's art and, um, connecting over Hmong American culture. Um, do you have advice for someone in reaching out to try to make that connection?
Speaker 2 00:11:19 I want to make sure I understand the question advice for any creative. We want to bring elements of themselves to a mainstream culture that may not understand their origins is that, Oh,
Speaker 0 00:11:29 I mean, that's a, that's an awesome question, but I was kind of asking about the interpersonal aspect as in like finding someone who you don't have say a connection from your university or something like that with, or professional associations, whatever connects you, whether it's, um, ethnic or a creative sensibility or something like that, kind of reaching out to make that first bond
Speaker 2 00:11:54 I do. And I think that that's the really, the only truth is to begin with questions. Questions are really an invitation to partake in thoughts and ideas and conversation. And so whenever I'm meeting somebody new for the first time, I'm always thinking about the most interesting questions that I want to know about their lives in the most friendly kind of a way where I could ask. And then I think that is critical to everything. When you're meeting something new for the first time, it is only natural to be uncomfortable. It is only normal to be a little bit nervous and afraid, but, but none of that can step in the way of our curiosity and our chair. For me, it's always, the beginning is always questions. If you're a young artist, if you're a young writer, whatever it is that you're passionate about begin by asking the questions that you need, the answers to in the most thoughtful and kind way you can to facilitate a kind of conversation that is unpredictable, if that makes sense.
Speaker 0 00:12:51 Absolutely. And it seems like that would create such a honest and genuine way to connect with someone like I'm sure there were times in making this book or in other creative projects you've done where you're probably talking about heavy stuff and it's important to have that real bond of going to someone and genuinely be curious about their life and about where they're coming from. Um, I think that's really excellent advice. Thank you for sharing that with us.
Speaker 2 00:13:17 I'm happy to it's, you know, part of being a writer is learning how to listen for a story and also how to call them from others in the most inviting way possible. And so it's something that I, I do often in my everyday life and in everyday interactions, not always for the writing, but just for the friendships that I want to have. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:13:38 I remember even in your, in your memoirs, the stuff about the connection that you have with your, you had with your grandmother, um, is really powerful. I think even just asking the people who are already in your life, things about what they've done and what they've experienced is such a cool way to flesh out the world around you and bring it to such life.
Speaker 2 00:13:58 It totally is, you know, in the context of gang workers, one of the questions that I really wanted to ask is where do we find the heroes that we need, right? Is it the silver screen? Is it the books? Is it from people in the past? Is it people in our present? Is it within ourselves? And at the end of this long adventure of writing this book, I think I really discovered Annie that sometimes the heroes that we've been waiting for, they were here already, you know, and by that began also from a, from a place of questioning, I was questioning myself if that makes sense. So even within the same beating heart so much begins from a space of questioning.
Speaker 0 00:14:40 I feel like there are, there are a lot of heroes in this book. The children are heroes, obviously feeding their family. The protagonist is a hero in that she's observing what's going around and figuring out how to live a more brave future. Um, the parents are keeping their family together in this really challenging circumstance. Did you ever consider writing this story from the perspective of one of the young warriors rather than as the enthusiastic and admiring sibling?
Speaker 2 00:15:10 That is such a wonderful, wonderful question. You know, at some point for me, I wanted to pay in some ways, pay tribute to those who listen and those who pay attention. You know, I'm a quiet person when we were growing up, I was in this program, come in already encouragement program for poor kids in the urban cities who, who might one day go to college and become a leader. And one of the questions that they asked Annie was what is a leader and all of these other people had wonderful responses to my, to my, you know, great aim the, the leader that day, the leader of that day, cause we were always meeting different leaders from the community, asked me, well, what do you think a leader is? And I answered very honestly, and that answer hasn't changed. I said, somebody who would take a journey where others are willingly and voluntarily follow, you know, and that continues to be kind of the, the leadership style that adhere to, but also the person that, that, that I am. And I've always been a listener and I've always wanted to pay tribute to honor the people in my life. And so this book was another way to do that. I've never once told my sister that she was among my great heroes for this book, Annie. She discovered that truth.
Speaker 0 00:16:34 That would be totally amazing to pick up the book of your family member and just have this story unfold of how powerfully that, um, they affected your life. Um, that's that must've been an incredible moment for her. That's really cool. And that's a cool way to demonstrate that feeling and that experience to be able to put it out in a written story and illustrations, um, and really do justice to it rather than like, I mean, not that there's anything wrong with saying something to someone in words, but it's clearly, it's your thing. Um, it's your career and your, your skillset to just write really powerful nonfiction. And here we go. That's so cool. Go ahead.
Speaker 2 00:17:17 Not at all. I was going to say it, the coolest part of all was when her, when her three kids looked at her face and they saw the scar for the first time, Manny, Oh wow. Me, of course they were born and she had the scar already and they took that as one more, one more way in which she was their mother. And she ever explained the origins of the scar and her boy, one of them is love. And the other is 10 and her daughter is seven. None of them had thought to ask about the origins of that scar. And when they read this book and they looked at her face, they saw a scar across her forehead. And in watching, watching her little girl put her hand up to just sweep that scar, the tenderness of that touch, that was the coolest thing for me about this whole journey.
Speaker 0 00:18:01 That's amazing that you kind of got to give the gift of showing those children very concretely, a way that their parent was a hero. Like I'm sure everyone's parent, if they have a positive relationship with their parent is a hero to them in some ways. And just the idea that you got to show on this much broader scale, like kind of her heroic path to the children. That's another great set of kind of intergenerational listening and telling stories and fostering a real conversation that I'm sure they're going to be a lot more questions on stories told to come. That's really sweet.
Speaker 2 00:18:39 That is one of my, one of my hopes, you know? Yeah. In many ways, a lot of the people in my life are very humble and I don't think Donna first saw herself as a Hebrew, but, but to see that scar and to know the story behind it, I think her children and my own children are beginning to ask themselves, can I be a hero to all children to have that feeling when they're reading this book, if they don't yet know that they are heroes, I want them to realize that they have every ability to be one.
Speaker 0 00:19:12 Yeah. And just, it's so clear that the children were just present in that moment in the camp and just found their way to be a hero just by being present and being connected with each other and listening and observing that segues really well into. I was wondering if you could read just a short passage, um, it's the second to last spread. I knew all the adults had survived a war.
Speaker 2 00:19:37 I knew all the adults had survived a war, but I had never imagined we children could be worriers long before we left Bondi the night refugee camp, the gang, where your showed us what existed beyond the fence and gave us the courage we needed to leave.
Speaker 0 00:19:55 Yeah. I love that part, especially because it just so encapsulates the most powerful part. I thought of this specific story, the way the, the way the children are able to kind of create a hopeful future. And by providing food, provide nourishment that there's stuff to keep moving forward from.
Speaker 2 00:20:15 I love, I love that passage as well. You know, by me directly, she can no longer access. It was the place where I was born, that how so many of us for that bit of time, but now it's gone refugee camps all over the world are never meant to last to stand the test of time. And when we talk about refugee camps, sometimes we have an idea of the stories that live there. But part of my work as a writer and as a refugee writer, as an American writer is to complicate that a little bit, you know, that this refugee camp was a training ground, that it was not only that, but it was a building ground in a battleground for these individuals. Um, and that there was fun to be had it adventures to go on, no matter how real the consequences. I think this is a necessary reminder for all of us children and adults alike, including the adults in my life who have survived that camp. My mom laughs and she sees the spot. She says, I can't believe you wrote about this. I can't believe that people will read about this, you know, because for her to still impossible happening.
Speaker 0 00:21:23 Yeah, I know, I understand. It's probably very different if, um, you were actually there, but I think it's amazing that people get to read about this because this is an experience that should be better educated about and should be information that people can access. So the yang warriors, they, uh, they venture outside the camp. They bring some healthy vegetables for their family back. Um, and they do get in trouble with their grandma for, uh, crossing the fence because that's dangerous. They could get physically abused by the guards for doing that, but they bent the rules in the first place, in the service of providing nutrition to their families. So I think reading this, it was interesting thinking about like younger relatives in my life where it's like, I do think that these characters are good role models because they were doing this for a reason and they were showing that they can provide hope. And, and I think that this would be interesting food for thought for a conversation kind of about like how rules get made, like how to navigate rules ethically in your life, because depending on where you are or what's going on, um, rules could be really different. Like it used to be, it used to be legal that people of color had to use different bathrooms and go to different schools and that's really not ethical. So like, could you speak a little to the kind of the good trouble aspect of that
Speaker 2 00:22:45 I would be delighted to? And you're absolutely right. You know, I have interracial children as you're talking, I'm nodding, but the people on the radio can't see it, Annie, because it's so it's, you're absolutely right. You know, I'm all American. My husband is why we have interracial children in the history of this country or union like ours was, you know, was, was illegal for a long time. You know, we also live in the era of black lives matter in the twin cities of all places, you and I, and I think many of our listeners will you, will you be surround these parts? It's been a fraud fraud ear in some, the history of this, you know, as my children were watching all the protests over first George Floyd and that the Dante right murders by children, um, they, they go to, uh, the school where Philando Castille worked.
Speaker 2 00:23:37 And so all of these, all of these convergences and they're asking, there's a pandemic, people are on the street and I'm like, but what are they doing that street? What are they finding for? You know, I can see my daughter who seven, you know, putting all these threads together. H what painting of the world, a world in which sometimes the safety of everyone matters more than, than whatever danger we may have to take on ourselves in which we have to speak up when we see something that isn't, that isn't right. However we are able to, and sometimes that is with a microphone, but sometimes it isn't. I think my speaking on the page, you know, she does her, she does her, she does her protesting with her pictures and her images when the state Capitol was raided, she made a dollhouse and, and in the stall house, there was a TV. And on this TV, there was a picture of the Capitol being shot at wow. And he hit the timestamp on it. She said, 12 something. I said, I said, shin yang. Cause I saw it. And I said, shin yang. And she goes, I'm, I'm remembering what happens so that my daughters will remember so that we cannot forget it because we don't want this to happen again, mommy. Yeah. And I said, you are, she goes just like the gang, where yours, she made connection herself.
Speaker 0 00:24:58 That's so wonderful. I'm so that's, that's just such a beautiful Testament to what happens when you foster conversations and you foster asking questions and really learning. Because for example, you could try to put blinders on and shield your children from protests or from conflicts or things like that. Or you could be like, Hmm, let's have a conversation about what people are protesting about and, um, talk about what their concerns are or how they're hurting.
Speaker 2 00:25:27 Exactly. And I think for me, Annie, you know, my mom and dad are refugees, refugees with limited education and limited income. They've never had the opportunity and the privilege of being able to protect me from our poverty, um, from the racism of the different neighborhoods, where we lived the different cities and towns, because you need, you need a certain kind of infrastructure to, to hold a kid like that without, without exposing them to the ills of a bigger world. And that was simply impossible. And I have become who I am because of it. And when I think about myself, Annie, when I think about the story that I've lived in, I don't see it as a sad story. I don't see it as a story without hope or humanity. In fact, I find in all of these realities and these real moments, as much as there is pain, there is hope and there's power. We harvested. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:26:21 Yes. I wish we had so much more time, but unfortunately, uh, we're running low and I hope that people get out of this conversation. First of all, that they should read this book with their kids. But also everything you said about, um, starting conversations, asking questions, really engaging with the world around you. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 00:26:44 Um, and I hope you take care and it was wonderful to have you on the station. Thank you, Annie. Thank you to all the listers <inaudible>
Speaker 3 00:27:17 Alexander Graham bell handed over the skull. So it could be transferred to the zinc casket and returned his attention to the tomb here already noted a rectangular shape in one corner reaching in. Again, he waved away the dust reveal a small metal chest. Could this be the source of such consternation? It took all the strength to lift the box out of the tomb. It was dreadfully heavy. He hauled it aside and balanced. The top of nearby gravestone. Bishop ordered the workers to finish transfer the bones then returned to his side as it Mabel is that it, his wife asked Alexander turned to Bishop. Let me remind you again. There's to be no official or unofficial mention of this object is that understood Bishop nodded and glance to the rest of the party who were busy at work. You've paid well for their silence, satisfied Alexander unlatched, and opened the lid of the chest inside bit of sand cradled, something to the size and color of a pumpkin.
Speaker 3 00:28:09 He started started at breathlessly for a moment. What is it? Mabel asked it. It appears to be a chunk of Amber, Amber Bishop's voice hella note of avarice. Is it valuable somewhat though? Nothing exceptional. It's basically fossilized tree SAP, frowny healing, closer. Bishop, would you ask that worker over there? If we could borrow his lantern? Why just do it, man, we don't have all day. Bishop brushed over. Maple started to shoulder. What do you think? Alec? I can make something out through the Amber, but just barely. Bishop return lantern in hand Alexander took it, twisted the flame brighter and brought it to the Barnet, close to the translucent chunk of Amber. It glowed a rich honey revealing what had hit at its heart. Maple gasped are those bones. I believe so. It seems Smithson's tomb held more than just its own moldering remains. But what are they?
Speaker 3 00:28:59 Bishop asked no idea, but surely something prehistoric. He leaned closer squinting at the heart of the Amber rested a small fist sized triangular skull bearing a prominent row of sharp teeth. It looked distinctly reptilian, maybe those of a small dinosaur, a halo of smaller bones floated within the glowing stone. He pictured ancient tree SAP flown over this creature's old grave, stirring up its bones and forever trapping them in this position. The tiny bones had come to form a ghastly halo above the skull, like a crown. He glanced to Mabel who took a deep breath as she recognized the pattern. She knew too that this must be what Smiths and wrote about what he aptly named the demon crown impossible. His wife whispered he nodded in his pocket. He held the burn page from Smiths and diary upon which the man has scribbled remarkable claim about this artifact. It had to be impossible as his wife said he pictured Smithson's words, but the dead man had written concerning this artifact be warned. What demon crown holds is very much alive. Alexander fell the AC trickle of terror and ready to unleash the very hordes of hell upon this world.
Speaker 4 00:30:07 Very good. You've been listening to James Rollins reading from his new Sigma force novel. The demon crown, his best-selling thrillers have been translated into 40 languages and they all explore some element of the real world. In addition to maintaining their breakneck pace. His most recent works are the seventh plague, the bone labyrinth and the sixth extinction James Rollins. Welcome back to right on radio.
Speaker 3 00:30:34 Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure. Uh,
Speaker 4 00:30:36 Tell us a little bit about the story here. You got you always, as I mentioned, bring in some sort of real world stuff here. You're talking about, uh, wasps. Uh, but, but talk a little bit about the story overall.
Speaker 3 00:30:47 Sure. Well, the story as my editor describes it as probably one of my most frightening books I've ever written and the story starts out as a group of scientists, they visited Brazilian Island. They discovered that all life has been eradicated from that Island, but before they can tell their their story about the strange species they discover on that Island, they're all attacked and killed, but there's one event sort of blows up into a big global threat when that same species is unleashed across the Hawaiian islands, almost like a biological Pearl Harbor. And as people begin to buy a die by the hundreds, it seems like the only recourse may be to nuke those islands to stop this organism from spreading further. So Sigma forest, my team of heroes is called in to figure out, you know, where did the species come from? Who sent it as a way to stop it. But you know, what's interesting is why this is so disturbing is that though that might sound like a crazy story whipped out of James. Roland's strange mind. Um, it's not pure fiction. It's this type of horrifying attack is one that actually keeps Homeland security up at night is one of their, one of the major concerns,
Speaker 4 00:31:45 I suppose, with things like, uh, you know, global warming, you've got, uh, the possibility of the thawing or the actual, the actuality of the throwing of the permafrost. And so you've got potentially bacteria and organisms that could be unleashed upon the world that have been encased in ice for hours.
Speaker 3 00:32:02 Seeing that happen, where we've seen some anthrax organisms that were, uh, locked in in permafrost and the frozen carcasses have some reindeers thought out. And actually in fact, uh, the native Inuit that were in that area. So we're actually seeing that happen already. Okay.
Speaker 4 00:32:17 Um, well let's talk a little bit about your characters because, uh, you recur them a book after book after book, and we we've gotten to know them. At least those of us who are readers, uh, gray is your, is your sort of your main protagonist, but you've also got Kowalski and monk and cat and some of these other people painter Crow. So talk a little bit about gray and, and how you originally came up with him. Where did the idea for him come from? Well, whole group is, uh,
Speaker 3 00:32:40 Uh, it's called Sigma force. They're a group of former special forces soldiers. They were jumped out of the service for various reasons, but because of the special skills or aptitude or intelligent, they're secretly recruited by DARPA, the defense department's research and development agency. And they're, they're trained as field agents. They're, they're, uh, they're given disciplines of scientific study. Uh, basic law is describing their scientists with guns, uh, command and grace and pier is the sort of leader of the, the group that we feed this feature within the 13 novels. Um, and each is, uh, each of them was a fellow members are disciplined in a different type of scientific field. Uh, I like actually basing a series on a, on a, on a group because I get to explore different signs and different novels of threats and come from very many different directions, but also nobody's necessarily safe when I have a group as a, the basis for a series and that, you know, anybody could be knocked off cause Sigma forest can always recruit a new member.
Speaker 4 00:33:31 Yeah. That's interesting though. I've read the last few, um, for sure. I mean, I may, I may have read more that I can't recall my read too darn many books every year, but, um, and that's a good thing. That's a good thing. Uh, but I was, I was thinking about that because, you know, game of Thrones has gotten so popular there, you know, at the end of the first book and the end of the first season, I mean, you know, that the main character is, is killed. It's a brutal series. Yes. Yeah. And so I was curious if that, if you have thought about that at all, with respect to your series, I mean, your series, your main players, for the most part, you know, have terrible things happen to them, but for the most part they survive. Exactly. And, uh, have you ever considered that kind of approach and obviously you wouldn't want to kill off everybody, but I mean, have you ever considered the possibility of killing off sooner?
Speaker 3 00:34:17 Oh, definitely. I mean, I have, this is the 13th book in the series. Not that like, do you have to read them in order? Anybody can pick up a book in the Sigma Sigma series and jump right in because they're sort of self-contained. Um, but I know the arc of all the characters that I've read that you've currently reading about. So I know, you know, how they land, where they land. I don't listen to them when they land. So I don't know which book we're going to have different things unfold. And I've dropped hints during the course of this series because it's peaks into the future in some of the books where we know they're there, the situation has changed and this book is a major change in situation for, and his girlfriend say Shawn. Um, so I, I already have a plotted out what's going to happen to him,
Speaker 4 00:34:55 The characters. Okay. That's interesting. And then do you also apply out the individual books in advance before you start writing? Or do you just sort of know this one's going to be about wasps for example, and this is going to be this biological, uh, attack and we're going to start here and let's see where it takes.
Speaker 3 00:35:11 No, I, I do plot out generally. I know the beginning of, I know the end. I often know the last line before I write the first line and I know three, generally three or four of the big tent poles that are gonna hold up the story because my stories are very plot driven, the big roller coaster adventures. So I need to make sure that at least some infrastructure's in place, but I don't necessarily know how a connects B connects to C to me, you know, the fun of writing is, is that discovery. I, you know, that's why I twists and turns that would never anticipate if I pre plotted it, uh, I'll paint my characters into corners that I didn't know how to get them out of. And I like those situations. Cause if I don't know how to get them out of a situation, neither is my readers. So there then I'll have to stop writing for a day or two and try to figure out and struggle, you know, how are they going to get out of that mess?
Speaker 4 00:35:54 So have you had, I assume that you have had to at some point backtrack and say, I can't figure a way out for these people, so I have to create a different obstacle for them
Speaker 3 00:36:02 Generally. I, I, I don't think, I can't recall any time actually I've said, okay, I'm just not going to do that trap. If it's a good trap, I'm going to stick with it. What I've had to do though. Sometimes, uh, plant things earlier in the novel that will pay off later in that scene so that they all they're able to escape something, you know, I'll, I'll, you know, it's an old writerly trick where you plant something early in the novel, that gun that's hidden in the, in the, the, in the, the, you know, under the bed debt later on in the novel that he's forgotten about. But all of a sudden the character pulls that gun out from under the bed and, Oh, that's right. I remember that was in there.
Speaker 4 00:36:34 Yeah. Yeah. Check off putting the gun in the, in play in the first scene and, you know, by the end of the play, it's going to, it's going to come in. Right, right. Um, you're, uh, uh, a veterinarian who is a writer. I was speaking with Robin cook a few months ago and he still considers himself a doctor who writes, do you consider yourself a veterinarian who writes or a writer who happens to be a veterinary,
Speaker 3 00:36:57 A veterinarian who writes, you know, I still, I could still new to her cat and under 30 seconds, uh, I worked with a group that trumps feral cats in the Sacramento Valley. I spent one Sunday for an eight hour spaying and neutering them. Uh, so I, you know, I'll never give up that profession. My, my books are littered with animals. Uh, oftentimes even point of view characters, I've written the, uh, point of view, character of a military war dog in a series. Um, my last book featured a Western mountain gorilla as a point of view character. Um, and this there's a different, not quite so fuzzy and furry of a, of a point of view character for something different. So that's that leans on my veterinary background, my science, my love of medicine. So you'll see a lot of that, uh, as a recurring themes in my books.
Speaker 4 00:37:37 Yeah. Yeah. That was interesting. I mean, I I've read, uh, I can't remember the name of the dog, but I was fascinated by yeah. Yeah. By being in his, in his point of view, so to speak. And then of course the gorilla in the last book and, and here, it's not one character, it's numerous characters cause you've got various drones involved and there's
Speaker 3 00:37:55 The high incarnations of this species.
Speaker 4 00:37:57 Yeah. So talk a little bit about, uh, about that. You obviously had to research it. I mean, even though you were a veterinarian, you couldn't have known all,
Speaker 3 00:38:03 No, not at all. Uh, you know, I do my own research via research articles and, and library searches, but I prefer actually to call people. So I had, you know, five entomologists on speed dial to the point that probably like James Rollins lose our number. Uh, so because I wanted to get every aspect of those scenes as accurate as I can. So everything that's featured in this book that sounds, uh, almost unbelievable about wasps and their, and their Natalie and their, in their, uh, what they can and can't do is factual. It's actually based upon maybe not one species that can do all that, like this wasp species does, but it's based on, on, on real insects that are, that can do anything that's featured in this book. Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:38:41 Yeah. And you, you talked to about the, uh, the Lazarus microbes and the tardigrades, uh, right. And, um, and they come into play as well with respect to the, the wasps and so forth. But, um, I wasn't really familiar with either of those going in. I, you know, I don't, I'm not a scientist obviously, but, um, but I was surprised that some of the characteristics that these wasps have and that these creatures have, uh, exist in the real world. I mean, I, I knew for example, that the woolly bear Caterpillar can survive for up to 17 years. I think as a Caterpillar before it turns into a butterfly or a moth, whichever. But, uh, but, but some of these abilities to, uh, to sort of hibernate for long periods of time and come back, that's a, that's, that's actually quite amazing.
Speaker 3 00:39:24 Yeah. I'm on that. And I've always got my intent up for those, those, you know, pieces of history that in a question, Mark, but also those bits of science that maybe people aren't aware of, that, that, that just shocked me. And I like showcasing them. And then at the end of the book, there's a sort of a, what's true. What's not section where I sort of pull aside the curtain a little bit and let people know how much of the book is real, how much isn't in, at least in breadcrumbs, if there's any topic that interests you, uh, you'll have an opportunity to follow it. Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:39:48 Yeah. Um, well, let's listen, if we can, to another passage from,
Speaker 3 00:39:52 Okay, this section takes place a little bit later, this is taking place with gray and say, Sean, they're on a beach, relaxing, a trio of airplanes descends upon their beach. That's not a sight seen group say, Sean said, what do you think as a trio Plains near the Island, the two flanking aircraft split away to the right and left the center. Plane continued his trajectory straight for the Cove before Greg could fathom what was happening. A gray, black mist jetted from the tanks underneath the planes, steaming out under high pressure, leaving a thick contrail in each planes, wake it built into a wide dark cloud bank, hanging over the water. The strong Tradewinds rolled those heaviness toward shore toward their tiny Cove. The center most playing continued directly at them. By the time it cruised into the small Bay, it had expended the last of its load.
Speaker 3 00:40:49 It continued to shore and screamed low overhead, not slowing Greg expected to bank up and over the Heights of the cliffs behind them. Instead, the aircraft smashed nose first into the forest, the explosion shattered trees and blasted a rocks high into the air. A fireball rolled into the sky, carried aloft by a column of oily smoke gray huddle with say Sean, under their beach blanket with like a makeshift shield against the rain of flaming debris and Haleigh, pebbles, and sand still gray ignored the need, immediate danger and kept his attention fixed to that wide blink black cowed blank, rolling toward them, driven by the prevailing trade winds. A single white plume Ygritte frightened by the crash, took wing from the neighboring forest. It fled from the smoke and fire and headed out into the Bay. Still. It must have sensed the menace posed by the ominous cloud wings beat faster as it stroke to climb above it.
Speaker 3 00:41:38 Smart bird is successfully Crested over the mists, but not high enough. A dark gray tendril waft is Skyward as if sensing the passing prey, the egrets path that jerked violently as a bird brushed against that threat. It wings flapped in a panic beat his body, contorted ringing a cry from its neck. Then it plummeted in a tight spiral toward the sea. His body vanished into the thick of the cloud bank poison say, Sean said, matter of factly, recognizing the reality of the situation grey wasn't so sure he searched right and left. The trio planes had left a swath of missed across the Eastern shoreline, at least a mile wide, if not more. And we're at the center of it as the dark bank, roll closer, a faint humming drone Rose above the crash of waves. Sasha cocked her head plainly hearing it to great frown. What the hell he squinted at the threat as he watched the buzzing cloud appear to shift and bill independently of the prevailing Tradewinds revealing it to be a living thing, a swarm. He realized taking this new detail into account. He weighed their options. Even if they could reverse the precarious trail along the cliffs, they never reached cover before the swarm swept over them. They'd be swallowed up. As surely as that unlucky Ygritte gray had to accept the inevitable they were trapped.
Speaker 4 00:42:53 Very good. That is James Rollins reading from his new Sigma force novel, the demon crown. And you're listening to right on radio on K F a I, uh, one of the things that struck me about this, uh, swarm of wasps, uh, every time it appears is sort of the, um, what we think of as the heartlessness of it. You know, for example, in jaws, there's the shark who seems heartless to us. And, uh, and so from our human perspective, it seems like these are just evil creatures. And yet in the reality of biology, they're just following their instincts.
Speaker 3 00:43:28 Exactly. That's, you know what, what's something I'm trying to capture in the drama dissertation of, uh, from their point of view, uh, sections is, you know, there's a purpose, a genetic purpose of genetic drive, uh, that, uh, you know, it's buried in our own genes, this, this, this desire to, to multiply, to spread your genes. And that is their goal than it malicious about it. They're just intent to go about what they need to do to survive
Speaker 4 00:43:54 You also in that first passage that you read, talk about Alexander Graham, bell and James Smithson, and they sort of play a relatively large role in the backstory for this story. You should talk a little bit about how, how they come to be in here and, uh, and their influence on the story.
Speaker 3 00:44:10 Well, Sigma forest is headquartered in the Smithsonian specifically in some old world war II bunkers, uh, real bunkers beneath the Smithsonian castle that they occupy. And so, uh, over the years, I've accumulated great reams of information about the Smithsonian, including, uh, some mysteries concerning the founding of the Smithsonian. Um, and so this, I thought would be the perfect book to sort of highlight, uh, just to give you some, some clue about what I'm talking about there. Um, maybe people don't know that the Smithsonian was, was based in named after a British geologist named James Smithson, hence the Smith. This was the Smithsonian. And, uh, but this a mystery surrounding this fellow, um, he left his fortune to the U S to S found this Institute of higher learning and study that he's named after the same after him. But he didn't never told him that he was doing that.
Speaker 3 00:44:57 It was a surprise when his last will and Testament was read that he had given nobody, any forewarning, even Otter, he has never set foot. He never set foot in the U S yet he left his fortune to us. And then Mr. Deepens a little bit later, uh, when there's a mysterious fire that breaks out in the Smithsonian castle destroys a part of the castle, but seems to particularly target James Smithson's papers, his research journals, his field books, uh, were mostly all destroyed in that fire, along with this mineral collection that he accumulated and, and donated to the United States. It's one of the reasons why there's so little known about James Smithson, the scientist, because all of a scientific heritage has mineral collections papers were wiped out in that fire moving a little bit for the farther, into the future. 80 years later, Alexander Graham bell, the inventor of the telephone, uh, decides that we should secure the remains of James Smithson.
Speaker 3 00:45:45 The Smithsonian Regents said, no, there's no reason to, uh, on his own dime. He took his wife and his steamship across the Atlantic to Europe. Once you landed in Europe, uh, he bribed officials. He told everybody that president theater Roosevelt had sent him on this mission, not true. Then on a snowy new year's Eve in 1903, he broke into James Smithson's tomb, secured the skeletal remains transferred into a zinc coffin and took that those remains back across the Atlantic where those, uh, phones are now entered in at the Smithsonian castle. So as a thriller, right, I'm thinking why all the skullduggery in this case, literally with Alexander Graham bell, why did the inventor of the telephone think that this was so important? You know, why did this gentlemen leave his fortune to a nation he never visited? And was there some ulterior motive behind that fire that seemed to particularly target that heritage of Jim Smithson?
Speaker 4 00:46:31 Yeah. It just seems to lend itself perfectly to a conspiracy theory.
Speaker 3 00:46:34 Exactly. So I, my goal, like I said, is to look for those historical mysteries as pieces of history, the end, the question Mark, and then maybe try to answer them within the pages of the novel.
Speaker 4 00:46:42 Yeah. Um, you also talk about, uh, Amber, which comes up and then the Amber road, and I was sort of vaguely familiar with it, but I didn't really appreciate how much of a, an influence had had, uh,
Speaker 3 00:46:53 Trade route from St. Petersburg and some of the other, uh, Baltic States, uh, the, the, the Baltic sea is a major source of Amber and all the coasts around there. And there was a major trade route, uh, uh, carrying Amber from St. Petersburg all the way down and across Europe, the breadth of your potential Venice and to points from there. In fact, I King Tut's breastplate contains chunks of Baltic. Amber indicating that this trade route has been active all the way back into, to ancient Egypt. And so that also plays a role. Uh, I got the idea for including this aspect of the story is, and I had visited talent Estonia, which is also featured in the novel eight years ago. And I, I attained a chunk of Amber that has a, uh, a little bee or wasp stuck in the Amber. And it's been sitting on my desk as a paperweight for eight years until finally I found the story one to tell. Okay.
Speaker 4 00:47:42 Yeah. That's interesting. And you also talk about the salt mines. Are those in Estonia too, or are those, those are in Poland, Southern Poland. Yeah, that sounded fascinating. I was not aware that, uh, I mean, I remember salts being harvested from the sea, like in India, for example, where they just have these salt flats. Right. And they do it that way. I didn't realize it. Okay.
Speaker 3 00:48:00 Salt mines was that it was the major source of income for the Polish Kings during that time. Um, there was, uh, even the words, you know, salt comes from the Latin word for salary, uh, in, in what, and that's what, uh, the Roman soldiers often paid was insult. Okay.
Speaker 4 00:48:17 Yeah. Uh, very early on too. It might even be in the, uh, the acknowledgements or something. I think you, you talk about how we're not really living in the age of man. Like we think we are, we're living in the age of insects. Exactly. Talk a little about what watch mean by, right.
Speaker 3 00:48:31 Uh, there's a new Paris scientists, uh, and a new pair of scientist scientists sort of hypothesis new theory that what contributed to the demise and extinction of the dinosaurs was not just that asteroid. They asked her, I may have compromised the dinosaurs, but the, what, uh, dealt the death below to the dinosaurs was insects that these insects, uh, predicated upon these, uh, these lumbering beasts that were compromised by, uh, by the climate change secondary to the asteroid strike. And they dealt the death blow and took out the dinosaurs, which again, it begs the question. Who's the latest competitor for the Earth's dwindling resources right now. And that's us, you know, we'd be the next target for that. It was really interesting just yesterday, uh, on, I was waiting for a flight. I, there was an article in the daily beast about the discovery of a chunk of Amber showing that feathered dinosaurs were being predicated on blood-sucking ticks. So it was almost like it was ripped right from my book. Here's a chunk of Amber with, you know, these blood-sucking ticks, you know, compromising this feather, dinosaur.
Speaker 4 00:49:27 Yeah. Well, and even just the idea of feather dinosaurs is less than a decade old itself. I mean, we didn't really know about, and that's fine.
Speaker 3 00:49:34 I really enjoy. I like the way that science is always changing. That's one of the reasons that I like to actually call that entomologist versus reading something, because oftentimes information in a book, even a journal is months, if not years old. So I'd rather, you know, call a scientist and say, Hey, you know, look over your shoulder, tell me what you're working on right now, because things change so rapidly. I've had to edit books on the fly because the science has changed in the course of me writing a novel.
Speaker 4 00:49:57 Yeah. The other thing that you talk about is the, um, the number of species I wasn't aware of that 30,000 species of wasps.
Speaker 3 00:50:06 Exactly. I just said, love these little tidbits, little facts, uh, to me, they just fascinating, you know, and I also had, I start the book with it, you know, positing the question. What's, what's the most dangerous animal on the planet and, you know, usual suspects, I'd let you know how many, how many, what species kill, how many number of people, but the, the, the deadliest animals, the mosquito contributes to millions of deaths every year, because the diseases that they carry. Right. Right. And I assume you've got another Sigma force that's almost finished. Okay. Uh, just to give you a little hint, the, uh, this, the history that's, that is the seed for that novel is sort of interesting. There actually is a Catholic patron, Saint Saint Columba of Spain. She's a Catholic patron Saint of witches, not against witches. She's in supportive, which is, it was actually a Catholic patron Saint that advocates for, which is interesting. That sounds, that sounds fascinating. I'm going to have to read that one when it comes out too. Um, we're out of time. So we're going to have to leave it at that. This was Steve McKella strum speaking with James Rollins about his new novel, the demon crown James Rollins. Thanks for being on right-hand radio. Thank you, Steve. Appreciate it. Hey, now this
Speaker 1 00:51:11 <inaudible>, you are listening to right on radio on cafe 90.3 FM and streaming live on the
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