Speaker 0 00:00:07 You're listening to right on radio on cafe 90.3 FM and streaming live on the
[email protected]. I'm Josh Weber tonight on, right on radio. Dave FedEx talks with Jim Heinen author of the youngest boy. He grew up on an Iowa farm and when the last areas in the state to get electricity, he attended a one-room schoolhouse and Roy Panther book about the experience. His other works include the man who kept the GARS in his cap. And you know, what is right? He was formerly writer in residence at St. Paul's college in Northfield, and received numerous awards for his writing. He lives in St. Paul then in the last part of the hour, Liz Oles talks with so Fronius Scott and novelist SAS, and the contemporary thinker whose work has appeared in time. People queue the Oprah magazine and numerous other outlets. She was nominated for the best new African-American literary award. She holds a degrees from Harvard and the Vermont college of fine arts, all this immoral. So stay tuned to write on radio. Hello, Jim, are you there?
Speaker 1 00:01:13 Hello, Jim. This is Dave, and then we got to push the button. Hi, Jim. Hi, welcome to right on radio on KFH. How are you doing tonight?
Speaker 2 00:01:23 Doing great. I'm actually sitting overlooking, uh, discovery bay, Puget sound. I'm a little bit out of back element.
Speaker 1 00:01:31 I'm overlooking Cedar Riverside. So you got me beat tonight.
Speaker 2 00:01:36 Not a lot, not
Speaker 1 00:01:37 A lot. That's true. That's the right attitude. Say, um, congratulations on the book, Jim, and on your marvelous career, um, before we start with a reading, why don't you tell us a little bit about how this book fits into your, um, your catalog, as they say,
Speaker 2 00:01:53 Well, I didn't know it was going to happen, but one day I got an idea to write from the youngest voice perspective. And as a matter of fact, I know the exact date for my notebook was December 15, 2019. Wow. So it was right at the beginning of the pandemic. And then in January, as a pandemic pandemic took hold, I just isolated and kept writing these youngest boys stories and they just kept pouring out. Wow. And I had gotten an invitation from this small press in Minnesota. Holy cow, press on in which a publisher asked me, if you ever have another book collection, please send it to me. So I did. And he took it
Speaker 1 00:02:35 Wonderful. We love holy cow press and a gym up there. That's that's great. Um, well you certainly kicked it out in a hurry, but I'll let the readers know before, uh, we get a reading from you that, uh, the book is, uh, it's lovely. It's, uh, it's small, uh, the, uh, chapters, the passages, the vignettes, whatever we're going to call them are brief and very brief. I want to talk with you about that a little more in detail, but it's also illustrated and delightfully. So I might add by Tom port, I believe I'm pronouncing that correctly. Um,
Speaker 2 00:03:10 And it's just a charming,
Speaker 1 00:03:13 Yeah, it's a charming book. And, um, we're going to talk more about that also, but let's kick it off with the readings. So our delightful listeners can get a sense for what you're up to.
Speaker 2 00:03:23 Okay. I'll start out with one called chicken salad countries. The youngest boy has a little bit of an inferiority complex, especially when it comes to older kids and city kids. And, um, that's one is when the cousins from the city visited the farm. The first thing the youngest boy noticed was their teeth. They had nice teeth, straight white has the keys on the church organ. When these cousins smiled, all of those teeth were not just perfectly white, but the top and bottom teeth lined up with each other, like two straight rows of corn with her leaves leaning over and fitting together beautifully. And their teeth have no gaps between them like a gap between his own teeth. And none of his cousins had buck teeth like so many farm kids. The youngest boy didn't have buck teeth, but a couple of his teeth left gaps big enough to hold a kernel of corn where it would stay until he went after it with a fork, horse, fingernail, all those nice teeth didn't bother the youngest boy, nearly so much as the fact that the Sydney cousins were so proud of them.
Speaker 2 00:04:38 Why couldn't they keep their mouth shut instead of smiling to advertise their teeth, show off teeth, look what I've got, that you don't have teeth. Their teeth were so nice that they didn't even look real. Real things. Never looked this nice. His cousin's teeth are so nice that they were disgusting when sandwich was sort of being prepared for these city cousins, the youngest boy slipped away and got a handful of gravel from the driveway. He put a couple of tiny pebbles into all the sandwiches, except the one he would be eating. His cousins would be getting to check them salad crunchy as his cousins chomp down on their sandwiches, or some little snapping songs, people with such nice teeth and to show good manners to measure up to the looks of their teeth, but nice peace and good manners. Couldn't hide what was happening in their mouth. As they politely chewed on their check-in. The salad crunchies, the looks on their faces were somewhere between being scared and being ready to cry and the pain there was fair. Those a little bits of gravel are going along way towards evening. The score in the teeth department.
Speaker 1 00:06:04 Thank you, Jim. That was Jim Hanan reading from the youngest boy. So Jim, the youngest boy, this is how he's referred to. Um, I'm gonna ask you if this is you. Of course. Um, I'm assuming that it is. And if so, or if not, why did you, uh, choose to use the, uh, this third person point of view instead of the,
Speaker 2 00:06:25 Well, yeah, you know, I certainly feed him lots of information because I grew up at the same time in the same place as he did, but I feel like I, um, like I discovered this character out there and, uh, he came to me and asked to be written about, so I did. Oh, I love that. It's just one of those weird coincidences.
Speaker 1 00:06:47 Yeah. Yeah. Th these stories are really, um, uh, they feel personal. Um, and, uh, it almost feels like a memoir, but of course it's not written as a memoir. Um, these come from memory, these stories,
Speaker 2 00:07:04 Um, well, some of the information of what makes them possible come from memory, but you know, none of this happened to me. Okay. Interesting. I never did that pro example. I did resent people who thought they were better than we were, of course, but, uh, I'm
Speaker 1 00:07:23 Glad to hear you never put gravel in someone's sandwich, Jim, that makes me feel
Speaker 2 00:07:28 Not yet.
Speaker 1 00:07:30 So these stories, so Jim, I grew up in North Dakota, not on a farm, but I have many relatives who lived on a farm and we visited, um, quite frequently. And, um, this life that's described in the book, it feels like it's gone pretty much. Um, it tell me if you think that's right. And if so, um, are you writing about something that's missing? Is this a reminder of what life used to be? Like? It doesn't feel like it's nostalgic necessarily. Um, but, but, but you're trying to tell people about a way of life that used to be, at least that's how I feel.
Speaker 2 00:08:10 Yeah. I think that's right. You know, it's a recalling, but it's been lost some of it good. Britain's some of it I think, would make our hearts ate a little bit, but yeah, that era is gone. I mean, you go to the farm now it's a very different scene.
Speaker 1 00:08:27 And what have we lost with that? Um, for example, I, I knew about from my falling from visiting, but at least I knew about it. My kids know almost nothing and many kids of their generation know almost nothing. And then so on and so forth. Uh, are we losing anything because of that? Well,
Speaker 2 00:08:44 My perspective, we are losing the oral tradition of storytelling that was so common among farmers. And, um, my main inspiration for the boys' stories was an old man who would go to his little shed in the Grove every night to wash eggs and people would come around because he was such an interesting character who liked to tell stories. So while he was washing eggs, he would tell stories. Wow. And he, you know, he was sort of the prime example for me in early inspiration because I would see how much people would laugh at his stories. And we never knew what was true and what wasn't true. Right. He was the man who grabs the guy from his cap and I had a whole book by that title. Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:09:32 That's right. That's right. Um, what was your relationship? And then maybe we can talk about and get a story from you about the youngest boys relationship with the farm animals. Um, I always found it to be a complex sort of thing, uh, with farmers and farm kids, especially, um, who grew fond of certain animals. Um, even though they knew that, um, their time was coming in the fall generally, um, uh, and the book deals very directly with, you know, these sorts of issues, um, slaughtering animals and, and loving them at the same time.
Speaker 2 00:10:10 Right. I, you know, if, when I think back, um, probably one of the most painful memories is, um, what I would see being done to animals. And of course, as a little boy, you emulate the men and the men are doing these terrible things to animals. And then you realize you don't really identify with the men, you identify with the animals. Interesting. And then as an adult, when you write about these real things that happened to animals, the danger you run is that people would think you approve of cruelty to animals. No, not at all. But I am going to tell the group about how they were treated.
Speaker 1 00:10:59 Yeah. Um, uh, Jim, there are a number of stories that deal with this topic. Do you want to read one for us?
Speaker 2 00:11:07 Uh, dealing with animals. Yeah. So I, I like this one called Betsy's calf. There you go. Sometimes it was surprising what the men and older boys didn't notice that day. They didn't notice that old Betsy was acting like she was about to have her cap. Her middle looked as if it had a giant balloon inside. And she was looking back over her shoulder is that she was trying to figure out what are some kind of ache was coming from most times when a cow looked like she was getting ready to have her cap, the men locked her up in a small pen in the calm barn where they could watch her and maybe help her have her calf. If things got tough. That's what happened last time Betsy had a calf, it took two older boys to pull that cap out this morning that she didn't walk with the other cards out to the pastor.
Speaker 2 00:12:01 She headed off on her own in the direction of this big dip in the middle of the pasture. It was a place the youngest boy knew well because the grass was tolerant to dip. And if you sat down, you'd be all by herself with nothing but all that grass, tall grass and butterflies around you. That's exactly where Betsy headed. When he started to follow her that's he looked back. She didn't like the youngest boys attention. So he hid behind the fence until she got where she was going. He gave her some time and then walked over to the tall grass where Betsy was lying on her side and giving some big heat to get the cap out of her. The youngest boy walked behind her to see how things were going. It would be fun if we, he would be the only person here when the cap was born, but he'd run to get the men and older boys.
Speaker 2 00:13:02 If he saw that Betsy was having too much trouble, Betsy, wasn't having any trouble with this one, the little front hooves were already out and the cat's nose between them. It looked as if the cap was diving into the world. And then in one big SLU, slithery, whoosh there, the calf was slimy and beautiful in the tall grass. The youngest boy felt like telling that's what a good job she had done. But Betsy was trying to stand up to see what just happened. The calf eyes were open. It was breathing and it was trying to stand up to Betsy and her calf stood up at the same time and look at each other. That's he walked over to what she had just done sniffed her cat and licked it behind the ears. The youngest boy saw the legs of the calf and Betsy were shaking. He looked down, his legs are shaking too. No,
Speaker 1 00:14:12 That's great. Thanks, Jim. That's Jim Hanan reading from his newest collection, the youngest boy. That was Betsy's calf. Boy, I tell you why Jim, uh, if he didn't live on a farm, um, I, I don't know how you could have pulled these off. Um, tell us a little about your experience. Um, growing up.
Speaker 2 00:14:33 Well, I lived in, um, my family lived in one of the last areas of Iowa to get electricity. So the early years of my life, we didn't have electricity and we didn't have central. I grew up in a cold farmhouse in Northwest Iowa. Wow. And it meant, uh, I may have written about this sometimes, but when sales would have AB pegs in the middle of the winter and it was terribly cold, my father would put them in this big metal basket and with straw on the bottom and take it in the house and put it on our, her wood cook stove to warm up the pigs before taking them back to the sound and the barn, that kind of stuff. Um, we wouldn't have, um, we didn't, we didn't have any pipes in the house capris, but the water sometimes didn't that supply tank would freeze.
Speaker 2 00:15:32 So in retrospect, it looked like a really tough life, but everybody was living like that in that neighborhood. So nobody could say this is tough. We, we, we all made it, but yes, it was very, very different, very cold. My brother and I would, uh, take our clothes and put them under the blankets with us when we went to bed at night to get the clothes warm. So he wouldn't have to get into Coke clothes on the cold floor. When we got up in the morning, all of this stuff sounds kind of weird today, but, uh, yeah, that was, that was the life, but it was, everybody slept. So you couldn't complain.
Speaker 1 00:16:08 Yeah. Yeah. And you've written about, of course, the one room school house, and that, that comes up, um, in, in your book. Um, how long did you attend rural schools?
Speaker 2 00:16:21 Eight years. Okay. Graduated from grade school at the age of 12.
Speaker 1 00:16:26 Well look at you advanced,
Speaker 2 00:16:30 Which meant, but I graduated from high school when I was 16, which meant that I graduated from college when I was 20 boy. So even though there may have been disadvantages and, and early youth, you know, at least I got kicked along pretty fast. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:16:45 Yeah. Say Jim, do you write poetry?
Speaker 2 00:16:49 Yes. I started out as a poet
Speaker 1 00:16:52 Because I can tell, um,
Speaker 2 00:16:54 My first or my first publications were poetry. And, um, then I started seeing some things that, in which poetry and fiction seem to be almost a marriage. I was inspired by, um, swampy, Cree, naming songs and the publication I saw it was written in, in lines like poetry, but the voice was so much like the storytelling voice of the best storytellers and the community where I grew up. My first collection would, was with copper canyon press. Oh, wow. Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:17:32 Indeed venerable, uh, publisher of poetry. Say since we're dropping names and publishers and things like this, I have to mention, I was really impressed with the blurb you got at one point from Raymond Carver.
Speaker 2 00:17:46 That's pretty impressive. How did you, um, well, well, I got to know Ray and I got to know Ray through his knowing my writing, which was wonderful. And I have to thank testing and Gallagher, who was finally his wife before he died. And he, uh, lived in port Angeles while I was living in port Townsend. And we got together very, very often. Um, one, one story, uh, he actually still a story from me, not stealing the way writers steal from each other, but in coupons in Washington where I am right now. And that's where I lived for many years. I see, um, Newport Thomson, Washington right now, visiting all the friends. But I was walking down the street in port Thompson and next to a lawn that was a print just beautifully. But on that manicured lawn with this enormous fish, like 20 inches, 24 inches long lying on that, on the, on the grass there. And I looked up into a circling overhead and I looked at them and I said, okay, this isn't my fish. So, so I walked away and I, I went down to a port state park where, uh, Centrum foundation isn't actually where copper canyon press is too. And I told that story, what had just happened to me, oh, Raymond Carver was there and he heard that story and you probably can find that Raymond Carver poem somewhere about how he, uh, sees this big fish and he picks it up and eats it.
Speaker 1 00:19:30 Um, thank you for that story. Uh, tell us, uh, Jim, about the illustrator, the illustrations, um, and why you decided to do have in there with you, your idea where they, um, holy cows idea.
Speaker 2 00:19:46 Um, it was my idea, but the story of Tom port goes back a long, long way to when I was teaching at the university of Michigan in Flint and I was working in a special program called the challenge program, which fits for underachieving high school students, that summer program, they wouldn't be able to get into the university of Michigan unless they took this challenge program to sort of get them up to speed, to get their work, to match their brains. And Tom port was one of the students and he sat in that class that I think he wrote quite well, but he, he really preferred to write, to draw the pictures, to go along with what he wrote. So I met him as a high school student. Wow. And then when, when grey well crafted the first collection of my, um, stories, the NAB of pepper yards had this cap, they use Tom port and Tom port, but that was sort of a kickoff book for him. It wasn't long after that book came that Gary Snyder solicited, wow. Tom poor to come up straight. One of his books and then very Lopez notably asked Tom port to illustrate a national bestseller CRO and weasel, which was really, you know, since Tom port's reputation, skyrocketing. And, but he never left me and I haven't left him.
Speaker 1 00:21:10 Okay. Wow. Yeah. So, uh, um, Jim I'm just was mumbling this only to myself because we're actually getting close to the end of our call and I can't believe it. And I have so many other questions. Um, so tell us what you're working on next. Let's do that before we run out of time.
Speaker 2 00:21:29 Well, I just have, during the pandemic, I also wrote a novel that my agent loves and it's called the last one room schoolhouse in Iowa. Yup. Yup. Actually, uh, focuses on a student who graduated from there. Not me, not me, not me, but the teacher who's only like five years older than he is. And this was not uncommon in a one room schoolhouse houses. There are actually cases where a person would teach in a one room schoolhouse who had not had one hour of college education. They were just big readers. Wow. And the requirements didn't come until the fifties, I guess. Wow. But yeah, this novel is inspired by in part the one room schoolhouse teacher I see. And I'm going to become to love story.
Speaker 1 00:22:29 It sounds a little racy. Jim, am I right? It is pretty racy. It's the Realty. Second I've ever written. Make sure that I get a copy of that makes you make sure I get a copy of that. And we'll have you back on the show. Okay.
Speaker 2 00:22:46 Well, I hope I hope it gets taken sometime in the next half year. I think publishers are very slow right now to respond to new writing. Um, one can only hope it that, that the people making decisions in editorial offices are people with literary, um, you know, are looking at the literary quality rather than looking at the marketability.
Speaker 1 00:23:10 Well said. I agree. We all agree with you here on right on radio. Thank you, Jim. This is Jim Hainan and his talk, talking about his new book, the youngest boy, Jim, it's been a pleasure. I have to let you go.
Speaker 2 00:23:22 Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you. We'll talk to you again. Bye. Bye. Bye <inaudible>.
Speaker 4 00:23:58 Are you there? Yes I am. Can you hear me? Yes,
Speaker 3 00:24:01 I can. Hi, how are you today? Hello. I'm fine. Welcome to right on radio and thanks for joining us.
Speaker 5 00:24:09 Oh, you're welcome. Thank you for having me. This
Speaker 4 00:24:11 Is the Fronius Scott author of the seeker and the monk and many other books. Um, why don't we start with you reading, uh, giving us a bit of information about the book maybe before you do the reading.
Speaker 5 00:24:25 Okay. Well, the secret in the monk, everyday conversations with Thomas Merton is about my engagement with the journals of the monk, the Trappist monk, Thomas Merton. He wrote extensive journals that were published under the stipulation that they not come out until 25 years after his death. So these are really the, the unvarnished Merton. And it's basically almost like a conversation between the two of us where I glean advice and his observations about the world and how I learned from him, uh, from reading these journals.
Speaker 4 00:25:04 And I see you have a reading, putting the glasses on there.
Speaker 5 00:25:07 Yeah. Yes I am. So the portion I'm going to read for you is from the chapter called the Hermione Granger of guests. Semini how to pray. And this particular section is called how to soar. And there's a quote in Martin's journal where he is saying, quote, I have my fingers too much in the running of my own life. I put myself into God's hands and take myself out again to readjust everything, to suit my own judgment. Jesus, I put myself in your hands promise to stop jumping out of your arms to try and walk on my own feet, forgetting that I am no longer on the ground or near it. Why do I miss trust your goodness? Trust everyone, but myself meet every new event on the defensive squared off against everybody from my superiors on down unquote, oh Thomas, may I suggest an answer perhaps because of your cloistered existence, you haven't had enough opportunities for experiences in which you clearly see or feel God at work in your life.
Speaker 5 00:26:32 You have nothing to feed your faith. And instead you subsist on books. You're like the, her meiny Granger of guest. Semini her. Meiny one of Potter's best friends in the popular book series by JK Rowling is called the cleverest, which of her age. She pushes herself to Excel in magic. By studying hard. She reads loads of books, knows a vast array of spells and can cast them with immense focus and power. Yet she struggles with magic. That requires a more intuitive sense, such as divination or even flying on a broomstick. When Harry tells her he's not as good at magic as she is, she admits her own magic is limited based only on books and cleverness. She knows there are interior characteristics that make a wizard, powerful characteristics. She recognizes in Harry, I'll put it this way, Thomas. You don't know how to soar. Here's what I mean.
Speaker 5 00:27:45 Like you, I pray. My prayer is often an ongoing soundtrack, a conversation without ceasing at times it is specific and intercessory, but then there are times of trial when I can sense my life is on the cusp of tremendous loss and suffering. And what do I hear in those times? Nothing. And I mean nothing from either side, I don't feel impelled to send out words into the universe and I feel nothing but a silent void acting as an answer. This happened the night when I lie in bed in the dark knowing I would hear in the morning, or there were not, my sister Theo had overcome the infection that was shutting down her organs in those dark hours. I could not pray. This used to perturb me. I wondered if I had been abandoned for my sister did die. What was I to make of the heartbreaking loss?
Speaker 5 00:28:51 Did the awful thing happened because God had forsaken me. I discussed this once with the rector of our church and she told me this sense of not being able to pray was normal. She said, those are the times when you have others pray for you. For a few years, I accepted her explanation. I would contact a few close friends and ask them to pray for me, but in another of those voids of silence, this one, as I stood in the hall of a New York city hospital, while Katie a dear friend, I loved as a sister underwent surgery. And I waited to hear whether or not she had cancer. A realization came over me. How do I describe it? It felt like I was waiting in a quiet, open space. Then an image came to me that of an Eagle soaring. I thought of the powerful, quiet of gliding through air.
Speaker 5 00:29:55 I asked myself this question. What if all my previous prayers, especially the specific practices in church or in my prayer spaces at home where the equivalent of a large bird flapping its wings in preparation for flight. Then in times of trial, when I think I cannot pray, perhaps that's when I have somehow taken off, I'm supposed to glide be present, trust the current of air of spirit to uphold me so I can do what is necessary in the crisis. Gliding is silent. Gliding is strong. God turns down the noise and lifts me, letting me know you can do this. You are not alone. Instead of an absence of prayer, I am surrounded by prayer, effortless prayer, but I don't know how this works. So I don't know if I can teach it. Thomas. I feel as though you would ask me if you should study aerodynamics, should we discuss prayer in terms of drag and thrust, lift and weight, maybe I will remind you of your words from conjectures of a guilty bystander, about the birds who each morning, quote, manifest themselves as birds, beginning to sing presently, they will be fully themselves and will even fly unquote.
Speaker 5 00:31:35 But in your clustered life, you haven't been forced out of a tree to give you the chance to test your wings. You can't trust them because you haven't had the full experience of them. I suggest you only need to remember that flight is in your nature.
Speaker 4 00:31:55 Thank you. That was so, oh man. So Fronius Scott, sorry about that. Uh, reading from her book, the secret and the muck, you know, I have a lot of questions and I was going to say to this one for last, but I think, uh, I think it would be wonderful to get you to talk about the two different takes. You talk about the immortal wounds and the impossible world. And those things seem to connect to me, even though we're in very different parts of the book. I was wondering if you could maybe talk about those two things and how they connect if they do connect for you.
Speaker 5 00:32:32 Well, the immortal wound is something I learned, uh, from the writer, Robert Vivian, uh, in our lecture where he talked about how immortal wounds, how we all have these immortal wounds, something that has happened to us, that we can never get over. And somehow as artists, they show up in everything we create and his example was Tennessee Williams, the playwright and how he never got over his sister's Labatt tummy. And in one way or another, that is always in his writing, even if it doesn't seem like he's writing about that. So, um, so, uh, you're referring to, um, my chapter on race, where I talk about my immortal wound being feelings of, of betrayal of, of that someone would see me as lesser than right. And so that's the mortal wound and the impossible world is, I guess you could say, if you want to tie the two together, it's trying to love the world, despite that wound, despite that wound showing up in ways large and small and, and somehow believing that there is good in the world, uh, as much as things happen to make you not want to believe that. Does that make sense?
Speaker 4 00:33:56 Yes, it does. It does make sense. And it kind of brings the, uh, I'm just thinking of kind of the, um, sort of mystical things that you talk about. The Rumi quote is the quote that I really, really love. It is out beyond the ideas of right and wrongness. There is a field I will meet you there. And the whole book seems to be about this quote that you're meeting us in a certain place in the year. Also bringing Thomas Merton to us in a certain way. And I feel like maybe you could speak to that, how you, how you feel about that.
Speaker 5 00:34:34 Well, I think one of the reasons I ended up writing this book is because I had been asked a lot of questions about, about how to engage with Merton. Um, I was at the festival of faith and writing and, um, I was on a panel about Thomas Merton and I, I confess right up front. I said, you know, I'm not a theologian, I'm not an academic, I'm just someone who I kind of have this monk who follows me around. And he gives me advice and, and people seem to be really hungry to know how that works, you know, to, to want to know how they can engage on a very personal level with material that seems hugely complicated. You know, Martin's work can be, uh, very daunting and I think, and really was talking about, um, uh, religion, for example. And I think, um, that's the same idea that there are these, um, things like religion that we, that we hunger to engage with to talk about. And yet we've made them very complicated and very big and very scary. So how do this book is a way of, of getting us out into that field? I didn't say, Hey, come on out. Let's just, let's just be out in the air and talk about these things in the way that we see it showing up in our lives, right. To look at our lives in a certain way. And, and to realize there's something very simple here at work, and we have only to see it and to trust it. <inaudible>,
Speaker 4 00:36:12 I'm wondering, uh, in the ways that you speak about and talk to Thomas Merton, it seems like there are times when he comforts you or you seek to comfort him. And also times when there are challenges, you challenge him and he might challenge you. And I'm wondering if he could talk about those two things and how they work.
Speaker 5 00:36:32 Yeah. Thomas Merton started journaling when he was very young man. Like, uh, gosh, even like teens, early twenties, he was journaling. So, um, and he journaled throughout his life, like his last entries or just a day or two before he died. So I feel that I'm engaging with him at different ages. So there are times when he's, he's younger than I am, and he reminds me of my son or, um, sometimes he's a brash young man and he reminds me of one of my brothers and, and I would call him to task just as I would my son or, or my brothers and say, you should know better. Right. And, but then there were times when, uh, we are the same age and I'm talking to him as I would a contemporary where we are dealing with the same things we were dealing with middle age, we are dealing with thinking about death approaching. So, so it it's the reason that works, I think is, is because he is so many different ages in the material that I'm reading. Mm.
Speaker 4 00:37:42 Um, to talk some about some current and not so current to the us, the first thing I want to ask you about is your son was at Sandy hook the day of the terrible massacre. And I'm wondering how that has affected both of you spiritually, how it's affected your relationship. And also you talk summit. I would love to have you talk some more about the book that you wrote together.
Speaker 5 00:38:06 Well, uh, that book is actually the story of that. Uh, Liz, uh, the book you're referencing is called, um, this child of faith, raising a spiritual child in a secular world. And it's, it's basically the story of our family, uh, joining the Episcopal church when, uh, this was the year before Sandy hook and, and our, and, and the journey of faith that, that we started on and the things I learned from him about faith, even though he was so young. Um, but it wasn't until, uh, Sandy hook that I realized how deeply embedded his faith was and how it was supporting him in that dark time. And, uh, so when, um, and he was expressing that, um, all throughout, um, in the, the years and months after that. So, um, he was in a documentary called Midsummer in new town, uh, where it was about a theater program that was created in the wake of the tragedy.
Speaker 5 00:39:10 And there's a part in the movie where the director asked him and he was nine at the time he asked what's the most important thing in your life. And he says, right away, he says, God surprised the directors surprised me. And when that film came out, a lot of people started asking me about his faith. And so that's, that's what led us to write that book, uh, to, to talk about that journey. And I wanted him to, to write his own parts of the book because to me, uh, he is the Sage, right. He has way more profound things to say than I do. So, so I knew that, um, there would be parts of the book. I just, I showed him the outline that I'm going to talk about these things. So you can just, you know, put your 2 cents in and, and we will put that in the book as well.
Speaker 4 00:39:57 You talk about your friend BICE, right? Uh, the man that you, uh, were really good friends with, but you hadn't seen for a while and the church parking lot, you saw him. Yeah. Um, what I wonder about, and I wonder about this for myself too, these, um, you could call them serendipitous events that happen. I have them happen to me too. And I think you have to be open to them to recognize that something like that has happened to you. Uh, and how does quote coincidence, because I don't really believe in, but that kind of thing, how does that fit in with your, uh, personal spirituality in terms of, uh, the, the, um, existence of God working in your life?
Speaker 5 00:40:49 You know, I think it's, I don't think of it as coincidence, you know, because it's, it's not a matter of, oh, this person showed up because, oh, I was just thinking about, you know, um, someone showed up in a moment where I was in deep, personal need. Right. Um, and I think, I think the better example, uh, from the book is, is where I talk about my friend, Jenny, how, um, you know, I mentioned my friend, Katie, in that reading, you know, Katie did have cancer and Katie did eventually die. And there's a day I talk about in the book where I'm walking through central park, mourning her feeling very in the depths of despair and trying to help myself feel better. And two things in my mind that I was thinking about that, trying to give myself a little bit of joy, I'm thinking about two lips.
Speaker 5 00:41:43 And I was thinking about how, oh, you know, I would love to see my friend, Jenny, but you never run into Jenny, but because she lives in California and all of these different things, but not 10 minutes later, I run into Jenny and we're and she takes me to a store and she gives me two lips without my asking for them. Right. So a very specific thing where I'm trying to make myself feel I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm hurting, I'm really hurting. And the two things that I think might help me feel better show up now, like you can't call that serendipity. You can't well,
Speaker 4 00:42:21 No, no, it's not.
Speaker 5 00:42:25 And the wonderful thing was, is that I'm, um, I heard a story from someone reading this book who it's like the book has made her aware to, to look for these things as well. So I'll explain. So, um, I didn't see this Facebook post, someone sent it to me, a Facebook post of a woman who is reading my book. And she's thinking about these experiences, just that you're describing, and she's feeling envious. She's thinking, well, these things never happened to me. And, and she gets to the part in the prayer section where I'm talking about praying with icons and I'm describing Merton's icons that he used, and I'm describing the ones that I have. So she decides to take an icon off of her shelf, her favorite icon, and she's holding it in her lap. And she's continuing to read my book. She turns the page and she comes to a point where I'm quoting from the gospel of John, the quote that talks about the good shepherd.
Speaker 5 00:43:28 And it's the quote I talk about after seeing my friend in the parking lot about how, you know, I'm a good shepherd and, you know, I will not, you know, let my sheep, um, fall into harm. And she says in her Facebook post for the rest of this story, he see picture. And she shows you that the, the, the picture, the icon that she had taken off her shelf was the icon of the good shepherd. And she realizes that suddenly he or she is the end being me for these moments. And suddenly she had one of her own to show her, you know, this is not you. This is you too. This is not just some special other only other people have this experience. This is you too. God is here for you too. So that's exciting that for people to just to realize that, that this isn't a special thing they did is all of us like the, we are all connected in this one.
Speaker 4 00:44:24 Yes. Yes. I have a wonderful story. That's too long to tell, but I will ask your permission to email it to you. It's this what we're talking about? And I would love to share it with you. It's just too long. I don't want to make this interview about me to me. I would love to send it to you. I think, I think he will be. I'm not surprised. Yeah, it was actually the moment I began to believe in God is what it is. So I will share that with you, um, a little bit different. You were a journalist and I'm wondering, um, how did being a journalist while you were working and after you stopped affect your spiritual life? Oh, goodness. You know,
Speaker 5 00:45:18 I think it's interesting. I think, I, I think like my spirituality, even though I didn't think of it as part of my, my job, I think it, it was just apparent and I didn't realize it at first, um, I would do interviews, I would interview people and they would tell me that it, that it made them feel better somehow. They was like, I feel like I should pay you for that. Right. And somehow it was just about me listening and just making a safe space for them. And I think Liz that, I don't know, I think eventually, um, I, I just, I don't think I could be a journalist now. Um, and I think it was, you know, I probably could have been a better journalist then, but it's just that I really see people as people and, and right now stories are more like entertainment and they're not like a person's story and I'm not sure. Um, I guess, I guess I'm not sure that I could, you know, have an engagement with someone, especially if it's, you know, if I felt that we got really personal, I can't go back to my office and write a story about
Speaker 4 00:46:42 That. Yeah, yeah. Makes sense. Um, well, we're almost out of time, but I want to take the rest of our time to talk about the, um, the current day situation with, uh, racial justice and black lives matter. And George Floyd it's in terms of your conversations with Thomas Merton and in those conversations, depending on what age he is, he had a different level of maturity about this. And I'm wondering, uh, if he could talk some about your changes in your feelings and what you got from Thomas Merton about that. Well,
Speaker 5 00:47:22 He affirmed for me that, that I have to look after my own heart. Right. And that's actually the purpose of nonviolence right. Of studying non-violence of practicing non-violence it's so that, um, and we were talking about the open field earlier, right? It's about being able to protect your heart so that you can participate in the open field to not come from a place of hatred. Right. Uh, you don't want someone else to make you into something that you're not, which can very easily happen in the racial situation of, of, you know, it's easy to get angry. It's easy to get frustrated. Um, I think the hard part is protecting your heart and being open to compassion and Riverton talked about that. And, and the reason I could hear him and believe in that is because he understood how much of it was, um, is, uh, a white problem as he put it, right.
Speaker 5 00:48:29 That, that there is, um, that there is such misunderstanding and that is so deep and embedded and that he, he knew that and he felt that. And I think that that's what gave him credibility amongst so many, uh, civil rights workers and activists. So, um, so he affirmed that for me and by connecting it to non-violence, which was something, a piece that I didn't have, he helped me to see, not that, not just how to struggle with it, but it's, here's a way, here's a way of thinking about it. Here's a way into that. Compassion and forgiveness.
Speaker 4 00:49:12 You talk about compassion and forgiveness, and it makes me think of listening. And you do talk about listening to you in that section of the book, too. Um, uh, this is kind of be kind of an oxymoron, but, uh, uh, very briefly, yes, we get ready to end the conversation. Talk to us about listening.
Speaker 5 00:49:32 You know, you have to listen, not just to what's being said, but what's not being said. Right. So, so when you see someone acting out of, of a lot of anger and hatred there's pain there too. Right. And I, I talked about this, um, in, in one of my, um, in a video, you know, thinking about someone, for example, like the, the interaction on January, um, in January and thinking about, um, some of those men who like in Nancy Pelosi's office, that guy sitting at her desk, right? You're, you're looking at someone who, who thinks in terms of value. And if he thinks in terms of value, then he must not think of himself as valuable. And if he gained such power from sitting in her chair, then must not have power a lot in his own life. He needed to be in that chair. And I have to hear that and, and find some compassion for that person. Like this is someone who's acting out of, out of, um, lack and loss. Yes. Yeah. Right. And so we won't get anywhere if I'm just addressing how horrible it is that he did this thing. That means I'm not hearing that, that this person needs something. And how do I hear that?
Speaker 4 00:50:57 We need to listen to not easy. No, it's not easy. It's not easy. The hardest thing. Well, you know, the other hardest thing is that we've run out of time. So fraught and I just <inaudible> and I just, uh, have enjoyed talking to you very, very much. This has been well, your book brought my spirituality back into my mind. Uh, it had been gone for awhile. And so it was really wonderful experience. And it's been a wonderful experience to talk to you. And now I have to let you go. Thanks so much. Thank you for having me. Thank you. Bye bye. Take care. Bye-bye.
