Speaker 1 00:00:07 You are listening to right on radio on cafe 90.3 FM and streaming live on the
[email protected]. I'm Josh Webber tonight on, right on radio, John Copenhagen returns to write on radio to discuss his new mystery, the Savage kind, his previous novel dodging and burning. When the cavity award, John writes a crime fiction column for Lambda literary journal. Co-host the house of mystery radio show. And as a six time recipient of artist fellowships from the DC commission of the arts and humanities,
Speaker 2 00:00:40 I'm Annie Harvey in the last part of the hour, Dave FEDEC will interview three editors of what we hunger for refugee and immigrant stories about food and family. The new collection from the university of Minnesota press that explores the intimate bonds of food, family, and migration. The book includes pieces from 14 writers from refugee and immigrant communities in Minnesota and their relationships with food, cooking and eating all of this and more. So stay tuned to write on radio
Speaker 3 00:01:18 Hi, this is Liz olds and we're talking to John Copenhagen or you their job.
Speaker 4 00:01:25 They're happy to be
Speaker 3 00:01:26 Back. Yes. I know it is good to have you back. And it was good to read this book, uh, in comparison to your other book. It was fun. Um, why don't you tell us a little bit about the book and do the reading?
Speaker 4 00:01:38 Sure. Uh, so the Savage kind is my homage that the tall, I think it's kind of the coming of age story that I kind of always had hoped that she would, uh, would get. So I read it myself. Um, it's set in Washington, DC in 1948. Uh, and my two lead characters are two 17 year old teenage girls who are very different. Uh, Philippa is very much that the traditional teenager of the time period, um, and she is attracted to, um, another girl named Judy Peabody, who is everything, but the typical teenager from the time period, she cuts a wide swath through, uh, the, the local high school in DC. Um, but they connect over a love of literature. Um, and they're very enchanting English teacher, Ms. Martins, um, when Ms. Martins loaned Philip a book. So if it goes to return the book and finds Ms.
Speaker 4 00:02:41 Martin being attacked, uh, in the shadows, she doesn't know what she's seen. And a little bit later, a classmate of theirs, this brooding boy seems to be, um, throwing, uh, sort of having a simmering rage at both the girls and the smartphones goes missing and, uh, and it winds up dead. And so they decide to solve the case and figure out what went on, which takes them into a pretty dark moral territory. So it, it becomes kind of, uh, they become both crime solvers and, um, you know, get involved with some transgressive behavior of their own and maybe even murder. So playing around with the tropes.
Speaker 4 00:03:28 Um, and I thought that I would read from the pro log. Um, so it doesn't need a lot of set up. Um, other than what I've given you, um, it's just the first couple of pages. Um, so here, here goes, if I tell you the truth about Judy and Philippa, I'm going to lie. Not because I want to, but because tell the story right. I have to, as girls, they were avid documentarians. Each are in the journals and buckets of pens convinced that future generations would port over their words. Everything they did was a performance. Everything they wrote assumed an audience after all autobiographers are self serving and grandizing memoirs embellish. It's unavoidable to write down your memories of an active invention to arrange them in the best, most compelling order of bold gesture. Some of the diary entries that follow are verbatim lifted directly from the source, but others are enhanced and reshaped.
Speaker 4 00:04:29 I reserve my right to shade in the empty spaces to color between the lines to lie. You may balk be a reader, but I don't care. I need to get this right. I could take different approaches. I could contrast the teenage girls. The black had the white, the heartbeat and the angel, the cunning vamp, and the divide, boom, or I could roll them together. A single unit, Lucy and Ethel Anthony and Cleopatra, Gertrude and Alice Watson and Holmes, or even, I dare say Leopold and Loeb, but neither of those angles would work. The complicated facts are in escapable. These girls are both separate and together, both unified and distinct. They solve mysteries together and yes, they killed together. But many times they followed their own paths and even cross one. Another things are never that simple, never that black or white, that good or evil that true or false.
Speaker 4 00:05:28 I'm not writing this to assign blame or to ask her to give them to us or to tie it up in a bow for posterity. It's not that kind of book after all active violence, committed by one may have originated in the heart. And the other that's to say, this is a story about sisters and like many of those dusty gruesome stories from ancient literature, here's sisterhood is sealed with blood. I should know I was one of them. It's 1963 now. And I'm 31, a few months ago. Crew chef Castro candy brought us to the brink of apocalypse. There's nothing like flirting with new to an award or turn up moral thoughts to urge you to come over the past and reconnect with old friends. Was that in mine? I hope these pages reach my partner in crime. My only true friend and nurture out of hiding. I hope she reads this and knows that I understand her, that I love her and that more than anything. I want to see her again. It's time by now. I'm sure you're wondering who I am, which girl, which woman I should say, the heartbeat of the angel Leopold or load, whose story is this? Well, I'm not telling not yet. I hear cry. Don't be so manipulative, but this story is all about manipulation. So why do Raider, should I spirit you sink into it? And don't worry. You will know everything before it's over. I promise
Speaker 3 00:06:53 That's John Copeland, Haber reading from the Savage kind, his new book. Um, and we are here together to talk about it. Um, one thing it's funny, you talked about this, but maybe we can go further with it. You know, Judy is the bad girl and I'm using air quotes, right. And Philippa is the good girl again, air quotes. Uh, but it seems to me, uh, as I read it that each has a little bit of the other and maybe, you know, Judy wants to be a good year and Phillip wants to be a bad girl. I, I, uh, I got that sense that it wasn't all clear cut. And I wonder if you could talk about that a little bit more.
Speaker 4 00:07:39 Yeah. So I'm really interested in that sort of dichotomy. Um, and it's actually a dichotomy between like the good girl, bad girl dichotomy that comes up in a lot of film more, um, that, uh, you know, sort of traditional Fillmore from in 1940 is. And, uh, and, and it's, you know, based on a lot of detective detective fiction from the thirties and forties. And, um, and I, I wanted to complicate that idea, um, and suggest serve character complexity that both, um, girls have darkness in them. Um, and both, and how you serve appear outwardly. Doesn't always correlate to who you are, um, you know, on, on the inside, so to speak. Um, but I also want to keep it complicated. I don't think either one is sort of a Saint. Um, but, but I think that, um, you know, I think it's part of, uh, of growing up. Um, and certainly I, as I wrote this, I mean, it's definitely a mystery, but it's also, I think, a coming of age story and I wanted to, uh, uh, constantly have them navigating, you know, complex moral territory means neither one. That's going to be purely a black hat or a white hat. And the story they're going to be complicated characters, um, as we all are,
Speaker 3 00:09:05 Um, the, the character that was the least complicated in my mind, but also sort of the, the, the one that makes the world a little bit better place as Ms. Martin's, um, uh, as she is able to reach to Judy as well as Phillipa. And you want to talk a little bit about that?
Speaker 4 00:09:27 Yeah. So Ms. Martins is sort of, um, in a lot of ways, well, I want to back up a little bit, I was very interested about writing about women in this time period because, um, and it correlates directly with my, the girls are actually, would be my mother's age at that time. And so, um, I think, um, I'm very interested in the way that sort of options for women opened up during the war, but then sort of being closed down, but in the 1950s. And so Ms. Martins sort of represents a modern woman, the, the sort of a representation for, uh, Judy and Philippa, who they could be, um, independent minded, outspoken, um, incredibly intelligent, um, you know, stylish as well, uh, and, and the seemingly independent. And that was very important for me to have that character, um, you know, for them to look up to.
Speaker 4 00:10:28 And, uh, and Ms. Martins, of course it does get complicated a little bit later, but she, and she gets, I think more importantly, the way the girls see her becomes complicated, um, and how they, how they changed in their thoughts about her. Cause she kind of comes across as this, you know, ideal and in truth, she's a little more like miss Jean brevity. Um, and, uh, so, you know, I think, you know, uh, but the one thing that they all kind of bond over, is there a lot of, of literature of storytelling, um, and, and then eventually, you know, detective fiction as well as part of that hall landscape,
Speaker 3 00:11:15 Um, Judy, why does feel the want to be friends with Judy so badly? And why does she keep up? Trying after duty has clearly rejected her several times.
Speaker 4 00:11:34 You know, I think that she recognizes in Judy's outward appearance, um, serve the darkness in her own heart. Um, she sees a girl who, um, is externalizing her anger, um, and her loss and her frustration, um, in a way that Phillip has not found a way to sort of, she's not found a way to externalize that, but she recognizes that she's very much the pleaser at the beginning of the book. She tells her teachers what they want to hear. She tells her parents what they want to hear. She looks the part, but when she, when this girls at school want to embrace her, that look like her, she doesn't like them at all. She just doesn't feel connected to them. And as soon as she sees Judy, she's like, okay, that's who I actually am on. Um, and here's this girl who's brave enough to be, um, a bed of the rebel and, and, and push the boundaries and, um, and is disliked.
Speaker 4 00:12:42 Um, and, uh, I think that is the connection and a lot of ways they do, they are similar. Um, although they, you know, of course it's very different backstories and, and family stories, but there's a kind of a commonality, um, in the way that they see the world. In fact, later in the novel Philips, I get frustrated with Judy when she starts, Judy seems to be becoming a little too mushy for her. And so she writes, she writes about it and, and, uh, we're served with the kind of point of like, oh, well, maybe there's a circle of, of, of a turn or flip here. Um, that's going on with their relationship a little bit. Um, who's, who's the tough one ultimately, and I don't know if I necessarily resolve that. I think I try to keep it complicated, but, um, I wanted to play around with that dynamic.
Speaker 3 00:13:35 Yeah, it does get complicated. There's a little GLBT content in there and, and we wonder what's going to happen. And, um, what happens? I never read the end of a mystery when I am getting ready for an interview. Cause I don't want to give away any spoilers. So I don't know if that, how that ends, you know, so if you want to talk about that or how you decided to put that content in or, you know, however you'd like to talk about that,
Speaker 4 00:14:06 Um, you may serve like how I positioned there. Their growth is characters.
Speaker 4 00:14:13 Yeah. Well, I think that, you know, without giving away spoilers myself, um, you know, the one thing I'm, um, as a writer in general, um, very interested in doing is, um, making sure that plot and character align. Um, and so that the twist and the plot have to do with the character growth. They're not just sort of, uh, I know there's not having just constructed this machine for characters to sort of carry out roles, but it's, it's really, the, the shifts are really connected to who they are. And so a lot of the plot twists have to do with identity, um, in the Savage kind, um, you know, who are your parents where, you know, what's, what's your real background. Um, you know, what happened to your mother and Philippa's case? Like all this stuff, um, I think is, um, those twists tell us more, the girls are discover more about themselves as they get closer to, to that.
Speaker 4 00:15:21 And I try to use the mystery of this Martin's and then the class, their classmate cleave, who goes missing as a tool to continue to enrich the character development so that, um, you know, I'm not, I'm not just, I'm not just creating a plot that fits characters into, but read the characters are kind of creating a plot, um, on their own. And so I think the twists about it any are just as important as the, who ducks to dumb it, aspect of it, which it definitely has. Um, and you do get answers, um, and, and even embedded in some of those answers are answers to other things. And then I leave some things open, um, because I am writing a trilogy. So my hope is that there's some threads that are, will, um, will, will be, um, sort of pulled into the next book. And then finally, the last book about these, um, these girls are into their womanhood, is it into the,
Speaker 3 00:16:22 I was going to say, are they going to age? Or you just keep writing about them at the age they're at now, it sounds like they're going to aids.
Speaker 4 00:16:30 Yeah. The second book is that in 1954 and the third and 1963, so they're definitely going to age and, um, and which is, I think it can be really fun, fun to write. I like to think of it as they, the mad men are like, it's the same basic time, not at all related to that, but it's that sort of that time, um, cer investigating it at, through these two, uh, characters, um, who will each will have it served its own mystery, but there also be elements that will continue to server, uh, come back and, and, and be folded in as this beds of stories I'll move forward.
Speaker 3 00:17:11 Uh, that makes me think one thing that you do this really nice, you ground us in the time period by giving, uh, events like Truman and Dewey and things like that. Um, you give these events and, um, it's wonderful to read, uh, to know, you know, and you get some about how, like, how Judy do you feel about, uh, Truman and Dewey and things like that. You get a little bit of reality in there besides just the more mystery which I really like. And I'm wondering how you picked which events you picked and how you picked the ones to, uh, ground us.
Speaker 4 00:17:49 Well, I mean, the Truman and do we, election was an escapable, like how I almost would feel like an oversight that they wouldn't bump into that what if I'm setting it, you know, in DC in 19 48, 19 48. Um, so I think that one was easy and I, I had fun because I think it's, it's interesting to have, um, a young woman, one of the, to kind of be politically engaged. Um, and I feel that it's not, but Judy is definitely politically engaged and thinking about this stuff. Um, so to have her, you know, thinking and having opinions about the election was just fun. And it also gave me more insight to her care Archer, um, and equally like, thought about a ton of looking at Judy thinking. Maybe I should have opinions about the, you know, my father has opinions about it. And so I kind of had fun about like, like figuring out or Philip was sort of having some growth there that she needs to maybe engage in a way, cause she's been very protected and isolated, Judy's had a rougher existence.
Speaker 4 00:18:56 Um, and so I think that was, uh, it was just interesting to have them engage with that. And then, you know, so you have these big, you know, um, world or national events going on. Um, but then like all the little like bits and pieces about DC during the time period, like the street cars, I mean, I lived in DC for many years, so it was like, oh, what an interesting how Capitol hill has been different with street cars, um, and pulling that in. And it's just, uh, it's, that's just fun. I just be having fun with that sort of historical time period. Um, but yeah, and there are little hints. And the other thing I think I mentioned the black dog at some point, um, you know, I just little things that serve, give you some like, um, I don't know, little, uh, indicators of what's going on at the time, uh, what the mood of the world and the nation is that at that particular moment.
Speaker 4 00:19:57 Um, and I think one thing that will continue to haunt all the novels will be the, um, I think it, especially the next one will be who acts or persecution of, um, the LGBT people, particularly gay men and women, uh, in, um, in the 1950s, particularly government workers. Um, and I'm, I have it a little, I guess, just a little bit right now, but that becomes a much more prominent, uh, plot element. And, um, and, and that will play into the next one, um, the next book. So th that sort of, that build up to that, it's starting to happen to, you know, at one point and then a party they look across and they figured out they were looking Joseph McCarthy, you know, they need my character, really. They sort of see
Speaker 3 00:20:52 Hovers,
Speaker 4 00:20:54 He hovers, he hovers and they over here, a little snippets of conversation. And, um, and that's all very, not just set dressing, but it's getting us prepared for book two. So,
Speaker 3 00:21:06 Um, we just have a few minutes left. I want to talk about two things. One is, uh, the is a point of view is very interesting and I'm wondering how you wrote it. It goes back and forth from Judy to flue with, uh, and then there's the kind of narrator off to the side that, uh, makes comments on what's going on. And I'm wondering if you, uh, wrote one person and then the other person completely, or if he wrote back and forth or how you created this, uh, uh, combination of, uh, statements and points of view.
Speaker 4 00:21:40 So it was a long journey, lots of revision, uh, believe it or not. I had an early version of this novel written in close third person, point of view on my, and it wasn't, uh, it just wasn't working. Um, and I wanted to get, I wanted to make it more immediate. I wanted to get closer to Philippa. And then when I did that, I had to include Judy. It just felt like Judy needed to be there. So then our road Judy's parts, and in some cases, certain scenes that were filled with us became duties. Um, and I just saved to do the journal entry because I really liked the whole idea, which is consistent all the way through it, about people crafting their narratives. Um, and there's sort of layers of narrative crafting going on, um, which, um, I'm just sort of fascinated with or how we tell the past and, you know, um, and so I really had felt like that then, like, uh, I had the frame narrator came in as a way of sort of gluing together the diary entries, but then became another way of sort of crafting the past and, um, you know, and ultimately you can decide and then who you bullish.
Speaker 4 00:22:56 So, um, it's just, there's something about like the way we look at the truth and interpret it that I just want to honor, I guess, through using those different perspectives. Um, and it's, you know, it makes for an interesting sort of plot elements as well, which you'll find out by then. So
Speaker 3 00:23:20 When I get to those last 50, they, um, yeah. Um, well, we're about done. Uh, why don't you give us an idea? It sounds like you're working on your trilogy, but what else is happening in your writing world and your life?
Speaker 4 00:23:37 Well, I've been, uh, teaching, uh, like crazy I've I moved to Richmond recently, Richmond, Virginia, and have been teaching at VCU and a local high school. It's my full-time job. And then, um, I am jumping into the next book. I have it outlined. Um, but I, um, uh, I need to get to work, uh, hopefully over the holidays, I'll have some time to dig in, um, and, uh, and continue to Judy and a story as well as some other characters that are bringing in, um, to the convex. So I'm really excited to be able to, to, to jump into that and be writing again. And, you know, you do a lot of promoting for books that can be fun, but eventually you're like, okay, I need to get back to writing. That's what I was doing. So
Speaker 3 00:24:26 Your hand gets sore from autographing glicks, huh?
Speaker 4 00:24:31 Yeah. Well, at this point it's like, how I'm my, uh, zoom, my zoom room, I think, is starting to get a little, um, but it's, it's fine. It's actually been a really great way of connecting with, um, uh, both readers and other writers, um, which, you know, you know, when I was touring, dodging and burning, the world was different than, and so I didn't have this opportunity as much as I did the sun, but I still missed in person events and cause of hope in the spring that we'll have some conferences and that kind of thing, where I'll be able to connect with people in person that would be a lovely,
Speaker 3 00:25:11 And you're teaching writing and in Richmond.
Speaker 4 00:25:15 Yeah. So I'm teaching at VCU, I'm teaching advanced, uh, fiction writing, uh, to undergraduates. And then I, my day job is teaching, uh, high school juniors at a local day school for students with dyslexia and learning and related learning, um, uh, issues. And so, um, which presents a lot of challenges and can be very rewarding too. Um, and, uh, it's fascinating to be a writer and with students who struggle to write and, you know, I actually, um, am on the spectrum with dyslexia as well. So, uh, I can sort of say, you can, it's not, it doesn't mean you can't be writers or creative people, or the written word is your enemy. Um, and, uh, so I'm not always winning that battle, but I, I really hope that, um, you know, they'll continue to see themselves maybe a little differently. Um, you know, and I have a chance to kind of connect with them that way.
Speaker 3 00:26:20 That sounds wonderful. John, we have been talking with John Copeland paver, uh, that his book, the Savage kind, which is the first book of the trilogy. I hope you will send us the next book when it's ready. And, uh, we've really enjoyed this interview. Have a happy Thanksgiving and we'll let you go now. Thank you very much.
Speaker 4 00:26:39 Okay. Thanks Liz so much. Bye-bye
Speaker 5 00:26:51 Hello everyone. This is Dave Fettig and we are talking with three writers tonight. This is my first time with more than one. So I'm a little giddy right now, a little excited. Welcome everyone, son, young shin, Valerie days. Please stop me on pronunciations and Zar lashed. Okay. Did I say that correctly? Perfect. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Thanks to you all for being here. I have so many questions. Um, and I have questions particular for each one of you and your contributions to this wonderful book. What we hunger for, um, subtitled, refugee and immigrant stories about food and family, but to begin son, let's start with you. I think we need to ground our listeners with a broad question, and I'm going to put it this way, why this book and why now,
Speaker 6 00:27:44 Thanks for having us on the show. Um, why this book, I, I wanted to follow up a good time for the truth race in Minnesota that came out in 2016. I really started already thinking about what my next Minnesota or upper Midwest anthology was going to be. And I knew that I wanted to focus on refugee and immigrant voices because while that was really an important part, a big part of, um, the race in Minnesota book, it wasn't foregrounded. And, um, I really wanted to make that the focus and food was something that I got even more inspired to write about, uh, with Diane Wilson's essay seven seas for seven generations, which was the last essay in a good time for the truth. So, um, it just seemed like the food discussions, especially in the refugee immigrant and, uh, indigenous and black and people of color conversations locally and across the country.
Speaker 6 00:28:53 So many things were intersecting in food. Um, but I just thought we could really, we could really address a lot of the things that we care about and the things that we get joy from, but also that we, we grieve as refugees and immigrants and people from refugee and immigrant families. So I just thought that it would be, um, it could continue a lot of the conversations around race and culture and community, um, and also bring in sort of a, um, in some ways, a way forward in terms of how we connect, how we heal the land, heal our relationships with the land and, you know, food is just something we all have to, um, we all need to do every day if we can to prepare food, food, share food. Um, so it's just something that, you know, really can bring us all together. As, um, as a society I'm hoping
Speaker 5 00:29:55 Well said there's a lot in there to unpack, and I think we're going to come back to some of those themes, but before we move on to our other two guests, just a quick followup with Diane Wilson, we had her on recently with her new book to see keepers. I was delighted to see her mentioned, uh, in your introduction. Um, uh, do you want to talk a little bit more about, uh, what she wrote about and what, um, sort of, um, you know, how her ideas sort of inspired, or I don't know if inspired, but, uh, I don't know, inform what you're doing here.
Speaker 6 00:30:27 Oh, definitely inspired. She's someone who I count as a major influence just in life. Once I met her and got to know her work. So can I just read the one paragraph, the paragraph that I wrote about her read ideas on page two? And, um, so I talk about how many immigrants there are in the United States, um, that there's 40 million people living in the U S right now, who were born in another country and that accounts for about a fifth of the world's migrants. Um, and so then I talk about, you know, not being indigenous to this place and having been born in Korea. And then I say a writer who has had a direct influence on me and on the Genesis of this book is the extraordinary Diane Wilson, a Dakota author, whose essay seeds for seven generations. I chose for inclusion and a good time for the truth race in Minnesota, espousing of philosophy of gratitude and reciprocity for the gifts of nature.
Speaker 6 00:31:35 Wilson's essay is last in that book, because I believe we need that in order to survive and thrive on this warming planet. We need to be part of worldwide decolonization or on colonization movements, including of our food systems. We need to make reciprocity with the earth a priority. And as Dr. Robin wall, Kimmer an enrolled member of the citizen Pottawatomie nation and a plant ecologist and others passionately advocate. We need to heal our broken relationship with the land, and we need to bring our children, the penultimate paragraph, and Wilson's piece speaks to this brokenness and the solution quote today. Many of our children are growing up in paved cities, afraid of bees, unable to recognize plants and often completely ignorant of where their food comes from then yet they will inherit this world. They will become its stewards. We are responsible for teaching our children that plants and animals are co-creating this world with us in the lessons they offer can help us reverse the harms that humans have.
Speaker 6 00:32:40 As we say, in Dakota, we talk BA or Austin, we are all related on a boat. So that's to sum up just how I think we need that really big vision for our planet and for our species. And then within that, each of us have, um, so much to share about our food cultures and what they offer and what they can offer the rest of, you know, the non-refugee non-immigrant, um, culture in the United States, which, you know, now for a couple of generations has grown up with very highly industrialized food system. Um, yeah, I just wanted to make a little bit of an intervention in that and just have some conversations around, you know, what are we, what are we doing, um, with food? Where did we come from? What's next? How do we work together?
Speaker 5 00:33:35 It's amazing. How much is layered into the food we eat? Um, I confess I'm not someone who spends that much time thinking about it. I do now from having read this collection. Uh, so thank you for this and thank you for mentioning a time for the truth. Again, thank you for that book. Uh, ladies and gentlemen, you should check it out a time for the truth, um, out of Minnesota historical society press, I believe also, but now let's move on to Valerie. That will take you in the order in which you appear in the book. Uh, Valerie, um, I loved your piece. It got me really hungry for food that, um, I'm not sure I really had authentic Haitian food. Um, and if you have some recipes in there, um, by the way, we're going to talk about this later. I hope. Um, uh, but I think you should put out a cookbook to follow this up, but we'll, we'll worry about that later because there's so much discussion about food and I wanted to do was eat while I was reading it. But Valerie, maybe like, get real now here with us, with Minnesotans. And have you read from page 33, the two chapters, the first one being, getting my first attempt, um, because you really kind of, you know, bring it right there, right in front of us, Valerie, about how we need to think about migration and the immigrant experience here in Minnesota. Um, if you don't mind and I didn't set this up, so, um, I'll keep chatting until you tell me you've got it there.
Speaker 7 00:34:59 Okay. Uh, yeah, I I'm, I'm at that page. Thank you for, for, um, this experience and for us to be here, to
Speaker 5 00:35:08 Talk about this. I thank you for coming here. Okay.
Speaker 7 00:35:11 Oh yeah, no problem. Um, my first attempt to share was plantings. Since they were easy, they are easy and delicious. I fried both green and yellow to show the difference in taste and texture while the family seemed to enjoy them. And mother's husband kept calling them. My husband's mother kept calling them plantations instead of plantations food. Usually people from different cultures connect, but somehow my mother-in-law found a way to other meaningful food. I've never asked her why she would do that because I learned early that confronting a Minnesota is a fool's errand and deflecting the defending the denial, the gaslighting isn't worth it, maintaining my food tradition and not drowning in a sea of hamburgers and hotdogs have become a type of resistance for me, food resistance. And I just refuse to let the things I love about myself, disappear for the sake of blending in roses. Aren't mad that two loops aren't like them violent on that. Aren't mad that peonies are different from them. Yet people feel this impulse to harass the different people into being like them. A cult-like need to force folks into the fold.
Speaker 5 00:36:31 Th that's a nice example of the wonderful writing that you were going to experience in this book. Ladies and gentlemen, you read this and we're going to hear some more from this, our last in a moment, but, uh, there's a lot here, Valerie, pretty direct and, uh, written for, uh, people in Minnesota. I'm not a native Minnesota, but I hear you loud and clear. Um, so, uh,
Speaker 7 00:36:52 Yeah. And, uh, yeah, it's a lot. Um, yeah. Um, I'm from New York. I was, I was born in New York, so I moved here a while ago and it is a very different culture. It's a very different way to interact with people and yeah, it's, it's interesting. It's, it's just bit and I mean that in the positive way, not in the Minnesota way. Um, interesting. Yeah.
Speaker 5 00:37:18 Right. So how has you mentioned the, the plantation story, uh, in just a few sentences, you just call up a whole host of issues. Um, can you tell us a positive story about how food has maybe helped bridge this gap with, um, S I see Minnesotans, I mean, is there, is it all just trouble for you?
Speaker 7 00:37:41 No. Um, I mean, it's, um, it's not all trouble because, so there's a patient happy hour that happens, um, once a month here and there are Minnesotans who show up there and who, and there's Haitian food there and people eat and it's lovely. And, um, okay, stop right there. And so there, there,
Speaker 5 00:38:04 We need to hear where there is. We need details on this Haitian happy hour, if you're going to
Speaker 7 00:38:09 It's it's act. Um, gosh, where is it? It's at, um, this place called art Wolf. Is that what it's called? I can't remember the name of the, and it's across sort of from the S I don't know why I can't remember anything anyway,
Speaker 5 00:38:25 We'll figure it out.
Speaker 7 00:38:27 Um, Cedar, Riverside.
Speaker 5 00:38:29 Oh, by the way, that's where, that's where, that's where cafe's located. That's where I'm speaking from. So yes, I
Speaker 7 00:38:35 Know what you're talking about, so yeah. Then it's really close to you and it's like, it's one. Yeah. It's two blocks away from here. So, um, so yeah, so it happens once a month and I think the next one is December 11th. And I always go because I like to have the food, but I don't necessarily have the energy to cook. Um, it's, it's, it's, it takes time. It's lots of seasoning and soaking and marinating and, um, and, and I appreciate the amount of time it takes and, and yeah, and I miss it dearly, but so I go there once a month and I have some, um, but, um, I often see those, you know, when people show up for those events, people are ready to eat and can to connect and to talk about things. Um, I mean, I think for, in my experience in general, when I have that, um, when I'm sharing patient culture or Haitian food, people are receptive. Um, I think this type of what I talk about in the book is just as sort of, like, I think it's more of a, uh, uh, a clash between, you know, mother-in-law, daughter-in-law type of control of what happens now to my son in a way, like, I'm losing this relationship and you're gaining this relationship. And so I'm trying to sort of shape that in some sort of way. Um, but that's, that has not been my relationship with other Minnesota with food when it comes to food.
Speaker 5 00:40:04 Okay.
Speaker 7 00:40:07 Yeah. Not at all.
Speaker 5 00:40:09 Yeah. Thank you. And thank you. And my husband
Speaker 7 00:40:10 Loves it so
Speaker 5 00:40:12 Well, that helps.
Speaker 7 00:40:14 Yes, definitely. Yes.
Speaker 5 00:40:16 Thank you. Uh, this is our last, uh, you wrote, you put three words together, uh, in your piece, which are very powerful for me, and they have stuck with me since starving for belonging. Um, so I'm going to ask you straight up. Uh, have you also kind of questioned, what does that mean for you starving for belonging?
Speaker 8 00:40:39 Oh, that's a lot. I really liked that that, uh, resonated with you. Thank you so much for sharing that. And thank you again to really reiterate, um, what some young and Valerie have said, uh, for having us here really excited to talk to you about our pieces. Thank you. Thank you. I'm so starving for belonging. I think that, so what does that mean to me off the sort of a question? Um, I feel like it's, it's really hard to, um, act one way at home and act a completely different way outside. And I think that when you don't feel like you belong in your own home, a lot of the times you have even more of a struggle feeling like you belong outside of it. And I think that, um, it's just a natural human desire to want to belong. And we have this geopolitical relationship, this, um, I guess just political relationship with the U S and Afghanistan that is so intertwined yet.
Speaker 8 00:41:38 So not depicted as such in the United States. That makes it feel like your representation doesn't exist, even though the undercurrent of this country is that there's always this war going on. Right? So we are completely intertwined with that on is that what happens in up on a is so reliant on what happened with the United States decides that the country and floated with the evacuation that recently happened. Um, and so I think that belonging somewhere where all savior relationship has been set up with two countries is so difficult. How can you develop a sense of belonging when such a, such a deep power dynamics, such a in unequal, uh, in imbalance exists? How can you belong somewhere where justice hasn't, um, happened? Where, where people are really suffering on one end of the relationship and people are really not on the other, not even barely even acknowledging a relationship exists.
Speaker 8 00:42:38 So it's hard for me to reconcile the Afghan with the American, right, and to kind of find a sense of belonging anywhere. And like, I think that the essay was just all about belonging is something that you decide taking away the power that other people are given when you, uh, try to find belonging through the approval of others, through the reconciliation of nations, through the reconciliation of seeing yourself in your surroundings, because you're there, like I'm here. I created that space, you know, African-American, if I don't see it, I am it. And I get to decide where I belong everywhere I go. If I decide I want to belong there, I'm been a belonged there. And I think that's what the essay was all about was just creating your own sense of belonging and how that, yeah, just the importance of that, that you don't need anyone's permission to belong anywhere.
Speaker 5 00:43:26 Boy, that's a powerful insight. So just this relationship, this power relationship existed and exists across nations across an ocean or around the world, but now here in, in, in neighborhoods and with other people, uh, and you bring that with you. Yes. Um, this is what you're telling us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The word starving, I think, is pure portrait in this respect. Um, because of course we're writing about food here and, uh, uh, to starve for something is a very, very powerful feeling way beyond an emotion. It's a physical feeling. And, uh, anyway, it really resonated with me. So thank you. And, uh, um, and so food, let's talk about foods then, then Afghan food and how you relate your experience with that here in Minnesota. Um, and his story you want to tell us, um, family, friends, or Afghan happy hours, or, I mean, you know, we're open to everything.
Speaker 8 00:44:27 Oh, so you want to know about where you can find out
Speaker 5 00:44:30 If you want to tell some story that that's great. Yeah, sure. Yes.
Speaker 8 00:44:34 Oh, well, it's very difficult to find out again, put a Minnesota. I think that a recent count was taking them home. Yeah. Ganzer in Minnesota and they estimated at 500 people. Most of which are my family members. Um, it was funny. Um, we have a nonprofit, Afghan refugee aid that is working with the state, um, to provide relief for the Afghans who are resettling here because out of the nearly half of the Africans that are resettling in the United States are going to be coming to Minnesota. And we're providing a lot of that aid. If anybody shout out, if anybody would like to dive into our go fund me, um, we can find us on Instagram at Afghan dot refugee aid. Uh, we'd love, love any support. Um, we're working directly with the state to provide relief in 95% of against don't have enough food to eat right now.
Speaker 8 00:45:19 So sorry, I get really emotional, especially the connection to starvation anyway. So thank you so much for letting me talk that venue. It just so hard to find in Minnesota, that's always been, um, really difficult. And I talked about in my essay about how food is so located in the family, because of that, you know, like you, you really have a hard time finding it outside. Um, there are some really great restaurants now. Um, you can go to the in St. Louis Park. You can go to football pizza, um, shout out that's my family, um, central avenue.
Speaker 5 00:45:55 Yeah, I know it. I know it. I didn't realize I, you know, I, I saw that in football. I see the name football pizza and I do okay. I didn't assume.
Speaker 8 00:46:04 Yeah. They're, they're my family. They're my cousins. So they're cool people. Cool. Um, but yeah, um, food is just a really important thing for women, Afghan women, especially because, um, a lot of the gender norms in general, not just an Allan society, but American and, uh, don't encourage women to speak in general, but especially having that double, double, double down on you, Afghan and woman, uh, Afghan American and woman, it's just really hard to speak. And so food is a really important way that we express ourselves. So, um, yeah, I think that you, when you eat an Afghan woman's food, it's incredible. Like there's love in that there's caring that it takes hours to prepare and it's just the wishes. Wonderful. Yeah. Thank you.
Speaker 5 00:46:52 Yeah, sure. It does. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Um, I can't believe all the time is flying here, guys. Isn't that amazing? Um, so we are talking in the week of Thanksgiving, which is a peculiar, maybe a peculiar or a American holiday, but certainly peculiar in that we celebrated by, you know, performing various acts of gluttony, um, Thursday and so on. Um, how do you and your families and, uh, relate to Thanksgiving if at all you American holiday of Thanksgiving, how do you fit in here this week? Who wants to start? But that's not a good way to ask a question. Is it Valerie? You go,
Speaker 7 00:47:30 I'll start. Um, uh, my, my family loved it. Um, definitely they, it was an opportunity to, it was so hard. Like we would, um, there was, my mother would cook all morning and then people would come by and ships. And so I would eat at one time and then take a nap and then come back and eat some more when the new people came. So it's like certain cousins would show up at one time. Then another cousin would show up with another cousin would show up later and it was just sort of this like tiered eating and also opportunity to see people, people would come into town, people you wouldn't see all the time. They'd always come by and visit. And my mother made all of this food. She would make something special for me because she knew I really liked shrimp. So I got my own special meal and then she'd make yams and then she'd make macaroni and cheese and she'd have to make this whole session metal sauce thing. And that was always amazing. And I'm, as I never learned how to make that, but my sister does. So I just eat it from her. Um, yeah. And the Turkey was always, um, cut up into pieces. So it wasn't never a full whole Turkey because she always thought that it dried it out. So we'd have a sauce on the side, like a Jew. And then it had like, oh yeah, that was my mother. That was her date.
Speaker 5 00:48:50 It was seriously coming over to Valerie's place. Um, so, uh, is our last over two, we have about four minutes left a couple of minutes for each of you son. And we'll see how we can wrap up here. So our last Thanksgiving, how about you?
Speaker 8 00:49:05 Yeah, for sure. I don't celebrate Thanksgiving. It's not really a thing for us, but if, whenever there's like an American friend who just like adopts me for that day, I go, wherever they go.
Speaker 5 00:49:17 So how about food? Then they share their food with you. Uh, and if you, you know, you experienced new things, right.
Speaker 8 00:49:25 I mean, when we have, yeah, I don't really eat meat, so I have experienced like mash, you know, I mean mashed potatoes and things in cranberry sauce. That was something that I was like, and like, you know, I have had family where like the try to get together on that time since we have a break, but it's never like Thanksgiving food, we just need to have.
Speaker 5 00:49:48 Yeah, of course. All right. Good for you son. How about you?
Speaker 6 00:49:55 Yeah, I mean, I, you know, since I don't, I guess I will say, like, I don't celebrate Thanksgiving anymore because it's, to me, you know, in white culture, it's it knowingly and unknowing both ways. Right. It's a celebration of genocide colonization packaged under like, oh, the friendly natives and this really, you know, the exchanges and things like that. And, but I grew up in, you know, I talk about an introduction, like a white Midwestern family. And so it was very traditional. We had very traditional, like Midwestern Thanksgiving and my mom was a good cook, you know, so we brought, my parents have very big families like, um, so yeah, there was, there were big gatherings, but now I do friends giving cause right now, you know, everyone's most people, not everyone off of work. And so, um, but two of the three people in my household are, are vegetarian, including me.
Speaker 6 00:50:54 So we do like just a lot of vegan Thanksgiving things, you know, but like wild, wild rice is of course an amazing, sacred, delicious food you'll do that. Um, I do fresh cranberry relish, which is just really amazing. Um, yeah, so it's, it's definitely, um, an opportunity to be grateful. It's an opportunity to get together an opportunity to learn more about, you know, native history and think about food, you know, in, in this country. It's just so fraught so much of the wealth, you know, all of the wealth first is from native land. Then it's, America's wealth is really built on black people's captivity and labor, you know, so it's just, it cannot ever just be, you know, a happy story. We have to look at really all of, all of the blood that has gone into what has fed this country. So, yeah. Um, but that's my day daily life is thinking about these things. So it's not yeah. But just Thanksgiving is just another day to, you know, have sometimes more time to more time to cook. So that's, I'm grateful for that. Yeah.
Speaker 5 00:52:09 Yeah. And I know we need to wrap up here, but, uh, uh, your point about food, all of you and what you're reinforcing in this book beautifully reinforces is that when we eat, we should be conscious of what we're doing. Uh, we stopped at, uh, what we consider an ethnic restaurant and, you know, we will something down. I'm going to think that's good. And, um, without thinking about the culture, the history behind it, uh, we're, we're missing out on a lot. So, uh, uh, that's this guys and takeaway big takeaway from this book. I really, this book really opened me up in so many ways to what food can mean and, and sorted all of you tonight. Any, are we wrapping up right now? We are. I get to shake. You know, I wish I had a lot more time. We all do. Thank you so much for being here. The book is what we hunger for refugee and immigrant stories about food and family. Thank you, sun, Valerie and Zara lashed. It was a real treat.
