Episode Transcript
[00:00:03] Speaker A: I imagine a first appointment with a.
[00:00:04] Speaker B: New therapist is never easy.
[00:00:07] Speaker A: However, it is about 8 million times.
[00:00:09] Speaker B: More difficult when you don't talk.
[00:00:11] Speaker A: In my defense, this doctor has been forewarned.
[00:00:14] Speaker B: My parents called ahead of time.
[00:00:15] Speaker A: They told the others beforehand, too.
[00:00:17] Speaker B: But I'm hoping this therapist will be smart enough to know.
[00:00:20] Speaker A: When he asks me, and what brings.
[00:00:21] Speaker B: You here today, my only response will.
[00:00:23] Speaker A: Be to slowly lift my eyes to his face and stare at him like.
[00:00:27] Speaker B: I'm trying to suck out his soul.
That being said, or, well, unsaid, as.
[00:00:32] Speaker A: Soon as the door to his office.
[00:00:33] Speaker B: Opens, I shoot to my feet, then start to sit, then change my mind and hover in an awkward squatting position like Im about to lay an egg in his waiting room. He blinks, his expression unreadable. After a few excruciating seconds of silence.
[00:00:47] Speaker A: He says, you, must be Machi.
[00:00:50] Speaker B: I chew my lip. Its good to know Im as socially incompetent as ever.
[00:00:55] Speaker A: Its a pleasure to meet you, he says.
[00:00:56] Speaker B: Im doctor Tsui. Would you like to come in?
Not really, but I dont have a choice.
[00:01:03] Speaker A: I follow him into the office, casting one last backward look at the exit.
[00:01:07] Speaker B: Like im about to be imprisoned for a crime I never meant to commit. I mean, its not illegal to stop talking, is it? Why cant I plead the fifth for the rest of my life?
Welcome to my office, Doctor Tsui says, closing the door behind me. I can practically hear angel scoff. What a dork, she would say. I think Sunny would like him. He seems nice, compassionate. You need someone who understands you without making you explain everything that brought you here. But I can easily explain what brought me here. They did.
[00:01:39] Speaker C: You are listening to write on radio on KFAI, 90.3 FM St. Paul. I am Eric Zimmerman, and I am speaking to author Kelly Murashige about her debut novel, the Lost Souls of Benzaiten, a beautiful story which combines the modern world with japanese mythology to explore happiness, friendship, and the potential for healing. Kelly mer Shige welcome to write on radio.
[00:02:06] Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited and nervous.
[00:02:12] Speaker C: This is your debut novel.
[00:02:14] Speaker D: Can you describe the process of getting it published?
[00:02:19] Speaker B: Sure. So it was actually kind of a long process. Publishing kind of always is. But I think I started this book back in November of 2020, and at that point I'd had a literary agent already, and I really wanted to write about a girl who becomes a robot or, well, wants to become a robot vacuum cleaner and prays to a japanese.
[00:02:40] Speaker A: Goddess, which is, you know, already kind.
[00:02:42] Speaker B: Of a strange setup but back then, the protagonist could talk, and the whole journey was very different. And then I kind of just set that aside. And then in 2021, sometime later, I basically started all over again.
[00:03:02] Speaker A: I was like, what if she can't talk?
[00:03:05] Speaker B: And then we eventually I showed it to my agent, and I was like, I know this is weird, but I kind of like it. Do you think we could go out with this? And so she also thought it was weird, but in a good way.
So we went out with it. I got some really great feedback from a lot of people and ended up revising it into something closer to what it is now. And then after that, in late 2022, we went out with it. The next month, we got an offer from Soho, which was so.
I don't know, it was very surreal. And then we got another offer from a different publisher. So then that was kind of like.
[00:03:50] Speaker A: Oh, now we need to talk things.
[00:03:52] Speaker B: Over about what the exact meaning of.
[00:03:55] Speaker A: The deal is and what are we.
[00:03:57] Speaker B: Going to be doing with it. And then in December 2022, we accepted.
[00:04:03] Speaker A: The offer with Soho.
[00:04:05] Speaker B: And then for the next eight months, it was pretty quiet. So it kind of, I think because I couldn't talk about it with a lot of people, it started kind of feeling like, oh, maybe it was a dream. Maybe it wasn't really real. And so then when we finally could announce it, then it was, you know, this big thing, and I started editing it with my editor, who's so great, and it was just this huge rush. And then it kind of went quiet again.
And then in the beginning of this year, we started sending out the arcs, and then it started feeling real, and I could actually hold it in my hands. And it was. It's been a long but really amazing journey.
[00:04:48] Speaker D: I think that sounds like a lot of ups and downs on that journey, of definitely. Yeah.
[00:04:58] Speaker C: So you said you already had the.
[00:05:00] Speaker D: Idea for a girl who prays to a japanese goddess about wanting to become a robot vacuum cleaner.
What made you want to write that story in particular?
[00:05:16] Speaker B: I really think it was just something that I had thought before.
I've never had a robot vacuum cleaner. Unfortunately, our house is too cluttered, run into everything. But I always thought they were very cute. And so, you know, I thought, oh, it's really nice that we kind of name them and, you know, just really like them, and we have such strong feelings about them. So I kind of had this idea of, what if a girl wants to become one because of something that's maybe happened in her real life? And then because I had been researching.
[00:05:53] Speaker A: Japanese mythology, japanese folk tales.
[00:05:56] Speaker B: I thought, oh, well, maybe she prays to a goddess. And so, yeah, it sounds weird, but that is how it came together.
[00:06:04] Speaker D: Yeah, that's fantastic. So your main character, Machi, wishes to become a robot vacuum cleaner, and this is because of circumstances in her past that I would say cause her to be depressed in the depiction of Macie's depression is honestly the most accurate depiction that I have ever read, given my.
[00:06:38] Speaker C: Own history with depression.
[00:06:40] Speaker D: Is there any research or experience that you drew on for this depiction?
[00:06:45] Speaker B: Well, first of all, I really appreciate you saying that, but I think I always say, you know, I didn't.
[00:06:53] Speaker A: This isn't totally my story.
[00:06:55] Speaker B: I've never prayed to become a robot vacuum cleaner, but a lot of it does come from personal experience, and I think I really found a lot of. I appreciate mental health representation in books. I especially had appreciated it when I was around Machi's age. So I think that was kind of. It felt like I was being seen, and I kind of wanted to do that for other people, and I knew that it wouldn't be the same for everybody. You know, some people might be like.
[00:07:26] Speaker A: Well, it's not like that for me.
[00:07:27] Speaker B: At all, but a lot of people might see themselves and kind of feel seen in reading it. And that was what I was hoping to do.
[00:07:39] Speaker C: How do you write a character in.
[00:07:41] Speaker D: That depressed mindset without falling into that kind of depression yourself?
[00:07:48] Speaker A: I think in a way, it was kind of cathartic to write about it.
[00:07:53] Speaker B: You know, I always expressed myself a lot better through writing than I did in talking.
So I think that was.
I think I've processed a lot of things, even things from my childhood, things from later on that in different books. So, you know how people always say, oh, you kind of put a piece of yourself into each book? I think that was something that I needed to do with this, so. But at the same time, I think I balanced it out with kind of Ben Zayeton because she's a bit of a character. She's very quirky, very bold, and I think it's not like I put her in just because, oh, I wanted a funny character, but I think a lot of the time, I'm drawn to that kind of levity, I guess. And there are touches of humor, and Machi kind of has this wry sense of humor herself. And so that was kind of how I think I tried to avoid just having it all be very sad and making myself sad and making readers sad forever. And I also wanted to make sure that there is a lot of hope in the book. And that's one thing that I always want to have in writing.
[00:09:04] Speaker D: You talked about how writing this out helped you.
The structure of Macie's writing, as clearly.
[00:09:13] Speaker C: Separate from the narration of the text, is a fascinating element of the story.
[00:09:18] Speaker D: What made you want to include her writing, rather than having her narrate some of these ideas and histories from her point of view?
[00:09:32] Speaker B: I definitely think people may not understand the choice, especially because the book is in first person. It's already very close to her. So I can see why some people might think it's a little redundant almost. But I think there's something very vulnerable about writing, especially because she's usually writing to somebody. And sometimes when you're specifically speaking to somebody, even if it's in a letter, kind of reflect on different things, whereas in narration, you can very much push things away if you don't really want to think about them. And I also think, like I said, I process a lot through writing. And actually, one thing I realized when I started writing was it helped people understand me in a very different way. Like even my mom, who's. I'm very notoriously very close to my mom and then. But she is very different. She's total extrovert. She has a billion friends. And so a lot of times she didn't understand where I was coming from. So then this one time, I remember writing a story about how I was unable to tell my desk partner happy birthday for like, ten whole minutes. And so, because it was just so hard for me for some reason. And so until she read that, she didn't really understand how hard it was and why it was hard. So I feel like I wanted to have Machi write because maybe she doesn't speak, she doesn't really express herself all.
[00:11:14] Speaker A: The time in narration, but there are.
[00:11:15] Speaker B: Things that she will tell the people she's addressing her letters to.
[00:11:20] Speaker D: So in Machi's story, Machi reflects a lot, and her family is dealing with the death of her grandparents and depicts a lot of. She talks about a lot of racism and alienation from that community that happens in that town that the grandparents live in. But there's not as much, like, very clear, direct racism towards Machi in the book. How does your depiction of that racism in her grandparents town interact with Machis own alienation from her own community?
[00:12:07] Speaker B: Yeah. So I think obviously, racism is an important thing to talk about, but I also didn't want to delve into it as she's necessarily experiencing it, because I was lucky enough to grow up in a place where there are a lot of Asian Americans. And so it kind of felt like it wasn't necessarily my story to tell, but at the same time, a lot of people I know have experienced it.
And so I think there are lots of ways to feel like an outsider. It's not always about the way you look. Sometimes it's the way you act or just the way you express yourself. And so I wanted to kind of explore those different things while also explaining why there is a big element of culture in this story. It's a japanese goddess, and I kind of wanted to write about that. But then also, how are people trying to escape their societies? How are they trying to escape themselves? Can they even.
So that's kind of a rambly answer, but I guess I wanted to kind of explore it. And you're right, there is a lot of alienation in the book, not just about racism, but about your own identity.
[00:13:26] Speaker A: And all those different aspects.
[00:13:28] Speaker B: So I hope that I handled it in a way that feels genuine to at least some people. That's always the goal.
[00:13:39] Speaker D: Speaking of alienation, the characters of Sunny.
[00:13:43] Speaker C: And Angel haunt the story long before.
[00:13:46] Speaker D: We meet them or even before we discover what they did.
[00:13:50] Speaker C: Machi seems to agree with their conclusions.
[00:13:52] Speaker D: And actions, even while being deeply hurt by them.
Do you think this agreement is a.
[00:13:59] Speaker C: Symptom of her own depression and lack.
[00:14:01] Speaker D: Of self worth, or is there something else that makes her accept their judgment of her?
[00:14:07] Speaker B: I think it might be a little bit of both. I think even if it's not somebody very close to you, a lot of quiet people have heard that, oh, don't you ever talk? Or like, oh, you're so quiet. And I think that can sort of start to. I mean, I don't think it's always a mean thing.
[00:14:25] Speaker A: Sometimes it's just an observation.
[00:14:27] Speaker B: But when you start to hear that, maybe you think, oh, I am kind of quiet. And then maybe you see a lot of other people doing crazy things, and you're like, oh, I don't do that. So I think that it kind of might have started with her, but hearing it from the people you called your best friends is definitely different because it's kind of like, it makes me think of people saying, you know, oh, well, if you don't, if you wouldn't take advice from somebody, why would you listen to what they have to say? You know, something like that? I'm not explaining it well, but it's kind of like, but what if you are? You do trust that person and you do believe in what they say. And they know you better than anybody. Then, of course, I think you're going to take it a lot more seriously. So I do think it's a combination of things. And that's probably why it seemed so devastating to her.
[00:15:24] Speaker D: This story explores a certain type of relationship. Between the thrill seeking, extroverted type. And the kind of homebody, introverted type of which machi symbolizes as yin and yang.
What drew you to depicting and examining this type of relationship through so many different lenses? Angel and sunny. Machi and Ben Zaitin. Angel and Machi, among others.
[00:15:55] Speaker B: I think part of it was personal experience because a lot of my close friends are very different. And like I said, my mom's very different from me. And I kind of wanted to explore that. But then also say, how does it work?
[00:16:12] Speaker A: How do opposites attract?
[00:16:14] Speaker B: But then what happens if that doesn't really work out?
[00:16:18] Speaker A: What if they clash too much?
[00:16:20] Speaker B: And I think a lot of the parallels started emerging almost by themselves. I often say sometimes things just take on a life of their own. And that was one time when it felt like, oh, you can see it.
[00:16:34] Speaker A: In this relationship, but then also this relationship.
[00:16:37] Speaker B: And it feels like everything starts coming back to everything. And, you know, that's part of the whole balancing act. We're trying to balance so many things at once. And I really wanted to explore, you know, these different personalities. But then also, what makes it work and what. When does it stop working?
[00:17:02] Speaker D: Yeah, now would be a great time to hear another passage from your story.
[00:17:09] Speaker B: Sure.
I always tell myself I don't need much. It's been that way ever since I was little. When I first started school, my mother armed me with a pencil, a wide ruled composition notebook, and a beaten up canvas bag she had gotten for free with the purchase of a dozen eggs. I was self conscious enough already. But upon reaching my classroom, I saw everyone else in my class had backpacks.
[00:17:32] Speaker A: Whenever we lined up all our bags.
[00:17:34] Speaker B: On the side of the carpet, mine stuck out, drooping to one side, one.
[00:17:38] Speaker A: Strap snaking out like a pale, limp.
[00:17:39] Speaker B: Arm stretching towards something out of reach.
I didn't say anything to my mother. I told myself I didn't need a backpack.
[00:17:47] Speaker A: My old bag was perfectly usable.
[00:17:50] Speaker B: That's what I told all the people who asked why my bag was so ugly.
[00:17:53] Speaker A: It works just fine.
[00:17:56] Speaker B: Then one day, somehow my mother found out I was the only one without a backpack. On the way home, she said, why.
[00:18:02] Speaker A: Didn'T you tell me?
[00:18:03] Speaker B: I could have gotten you a backpack.
[00:18:06] Speaker A: I didn't need one, I said, but.
[00:18:08] Speaker B: I was crying in relief.
I changed in some ways as I grew up. But that one thing, the conviction that I don't need much, has always remained. I don't need my voice. I don't need friends. I don't need a goddess, especially one who won't even grant my original wish. I can make it on my own.
But then I let myself go for a moment, and when I come crashing back to earth, I'm there meeting.
[00:18:35] Speaker D: Thank you so much.
[00:18:36] Speaker C: You are listening to write on radio on KFA 90.3 FM, St. Paul. We are talking to Kelly Murashige about her debut novel, the Lost Souls of Ben Zeiton.
[00:18:48] Speaker D: This story combines a really grounded and.
[00:18:51] Speaker C: Realistic depiction of mental health in our modern world with a lot of fantastical and mythological elements.
What drew you to combine these two seemingly conflicting elements of storytelling?
[00:19:06] Speaker B: I think it was kind of.
We were just talking about the yin and yang thing, and I think this is kind of another example of it. When I was really young, I would write very fantastical stories about stuffed animals talking and, you know, the tooth fairy and everything. And then when I got older, I started writing purely contemporary. And, you know, I was like, oh, I don't need to write about fantastical. I was a little bit snobby, I think. And I was like, oh, I'm very realistic. And then somewhere along the way, I think I started reconnecting with my culture and learning more about different folktales and goddesses. And I was like, oh, I really like this. And so I think I tried to.
[00:19:52] Speaker A: Lighten stories a little bit without losing sight of realism.
[00:19:55] Speaker B: And its not that I think fantasy cant be serious because it very much can be, or that realism cant be fun because rom coms and everything. But I think it was kind of. That was how I really started to find what I wanted to do. You know, just a little bit of quirkiness, but also things that are very real and maybe help people in different ways. And also, you know, I grew up on games like Rune Factory and books like Percy Jackson. And, you know, I was always very into those things that tackle very real subjects in ways that maybe you wouldn't expect. So I really wanted to do that.
[00:20:38] Speaker A: And it wasn't until I started doing.
[00:20:40] Speaker B: That that I really felt like I was doing what I wanted to do.
[00:20:46] Speaker D: There's also something that I was thinking about earlier today.
There is a different kind of fantasy when it comes to Benzaiten, which is not the fantasy of gods and magic, but the fantasy of that someone who is depressed might have that someone who is extroverted and absolutely in love with life will make it their mission to help you.
How did you want to play with that fantasy in this story? And how does it kind of get.
[00:21:23] Speaker C: Complicated by your narrative?
[00:21:27] Speaker B: I think that kind of touches on a lot of kind of real life things. People always say, oh, I'm an introvert. I want an extrovert to adopt me, or kind of like the awkward guy who meets a manic pixie dream girl or something like that. And I do think I kind of play with that. But the whole point was, and this was something that I talked to my editor a lot about, was, things shouldn't be magically solved. I mean, it's not like Benziatan is going to fix everything. A lot of it has to do with Machi fixing herself, learning how to fix herself. And that was something that I really wanted to emphasize, that maybe there's not going to be magic in the way that you expect it to. You're maybe not going to take a happy pill, and then everything's going to be okay. But you can find magic in the little things. So you can start talking to that neighbor you kind of think is funny, or you can join a group just out of the blue, and then maybe that'll help you start to connect with people. So I think there is a danger in kind of saying that, oh, everything's better because of this one person. And that's also something that's explored even without magic, that Machi was so dependent on her friendships, when it was broken, she was kind of like, oh, well, then there's nothing really left for me, I guess so, yeah. That is something that is very important, and I'm glad that you brought it up.
[00:23:02] Speaker D: And then on the other, you talked a little bit about.
[00:23:08] Speaker C: Japanese mythology and folklore. There are two gods in this story.
[00:23:12] Speaker D: Benzaiten and Daiko Kutinous, and who are.
[00:23:18] Speaker C: Interesting and full characters in their own right.
[00:23:22] Speaker D: What about these mythological figures made you feel that they would be a good.
[00:23:26] Speaker C: Fit for your story?
[00:23:28] Speaker B: I think I was very drawn to Ben Zayaten, and it was always these two, even in the very early versions. But Ben Zayetin was probably because she is the only confirmed female goddess and the seven lucky gods, or the seven gods of fortune. And so I really wanted to explore that female dynamic, I think. But then also, I read these certain stories about her, like how she's the goddess of love, and if she doesn't.
[00:23:58] Speaker A: Think that you're with the right person.
[00:23:59] Speaker B: Maybe she'll break you up. And those kinds of things. And so I thought, oh, I think it would be interesting to kind of explore her character, because there are some legends, but then a lot of them.
[00:24:11] Speaker A: Either conflict or they don't really go into detail.
[00:24:13] Speaker B: And I kind of thought, well, what if I could kind of fill in the blanks or try to. And then with Dicochtan, I think it was almost kind of the opposite in a way.
There wasn't a whole lot about him, whereas a lot of the other seven lucky gods, they're very well known, or they have stories about them. Like, Eris is one of the most famous ones, I think, and people named.
[00:24:40] Speaker A: Their businesses after him or their restaurants.
[00:24:43] Speaker B: Because he's known to bless you if you name it after him. So I kind of wanted to go with one that didn't have a whole.
[00:24:51] Speaker A: Lot of background information.
[00:24:53] Speaker B: So I think. And also, I liked the idea that he had this rice mallet. I don't know why. So that was one thing that I really wanted to include.
[00:25:03] Speaker D: I think we have time for about one more question. The moments where Machi lives through the ghosts are some of the most heart.
[00:25:12] Speaker C: Wrenching in the story.
[00:25:14] Speaker D: Would you say that these moments of.
[00:25:16] Speaker C: Extreme empathy change machis understanding of herself and her situation?
[00:25:23] Speaker A: I would say definitely.
[00:25:24] Speaker B: There is a lot of guilt around it, of the whole, oh, well, why am I sad when other people have.
[00:25:32] Speaker A: It so much worse?
[00:25:33] Speaker B: And that's a very common sentiment, I.
[00:25:35] Speaker A: Think, and also one that can be.
[00:25:36] Speaker B: Very damaging, because we are all going through things, and they're all very valid things, I think.
And I think that's part of why I'm so drawn to writing and reading is you're experiencing other people's stories, even if, whether they're fictional or nothing. You're learning empathy, and you're kind of expanding your horizons. And I think that's it's not so much like, oh, my life isn't so bad after all. It's more like there are so many different life experiences, and people get through things in so many different ways, and we all have our own stories to tell. And who's to say that yours won't.
[00:26:18] Speaker A: Be important to somebody?
[00:26:20] Speaker B: Because it always is.
[00:26:22] Speaker D: Thank you.
[00:26:23] Speaker C: You are listening to write on radio on KFAI, 90.3 FM, St. Paul.
I'm Eric Zimmerman, and I'm speaking to author Kelly Muroshige about her debut novel, the Lost Souls of Ben Zeiton.
[00:26:37] Speaker D: Kelly, where can people find your book?
[00:26:41] Speaker B: I believe it's distributed by Sohoteen through Penguin Random House.
So I am I allowed to plug my own website because there are links.
So it's Kelly Murashige, which is very hard to spell.com.
i have all sorts of things on there. I'm constantly updating my website, but there should be links there.
[00:27:07] Speaker C: All right. Thank you so much for being here with us today.
[00:27:11] Speaker B: Thank you. I had an amazing time. Thank you.
