Speaker 1 00:01:08 You're listening to write on radio on K I, 90.3, FM and streaming live on the
[email protected]. I'm Otto in the first part of the hour, Josh talks with Saab Felder about her book, existential physics, a scientist guide to life's biggest questions, science and religion have the same roots and they still tackle some of the same questions. Where do we come from? How much can we know physicists have learned a lot about which spiritual ideas are still compatible with laws of nature. They haven't always stayed on the scientific side of the debate. However, Hasson Felder's book offers a no nonsense yet entertaining take on some of the toughest riddles in, in existence and will give the reader a solid grasp on what we know and what we don't know.
Speaker 2 00:01:58 And I'm Molly Ray. Then in the last part of the hour, we will feature one of our legacy interviews tune in as we go do a deep dive into the archives to play an interview from the past, all of listen more so stay tuned to right on radio
Speaker 3 00:02:25 Vena. Hassenfeld is presently a research fellow at the Frankford Institute for advanced studies and has published more than 80 research articles about the foundations of physics. She's a creator of the YouTube channel of science about the gobbley go in her latest book, existential physics, a scientist guy to life's biggest questions. Hassenfeld takes on the biggest questions in physics. Do particles think was the universe made for us as physics ruled out free? Will she lays out where the current limits are and what questions might well remain unanswerable? She's also the only theoretical physic I know of has to disc track on theories of everything. Sabina, welcome to right on radio.
Speaker 4 00:03:01 <laugh> hello, Josh.
Speaker 3 00:03:03 In your first chapter, you introduced this problem dove the problem of simultaneity. What is it and why can't we constrain existence to a moment that we call a universal now?
Speaker 4 00:03:15 Yes. So, um, the thing is, is one of the odd consequences of Einstein's theories of space and time, uh, is that it, it becomes impossible to define a moment, uh, that you can call now basically the problem is that different observers don't agree on what they mean by now. So odd as it sounds, uh, every moment that includes the past could be now for someone. So your past could be somebody else's present and that then you have to ask, why should somebody else's present be any less real than yours? And this is why we think the past exists the same way as the present.
Speaker 3 00:03:57 And that's, what's called the blog universe, right? That the past future present exists. Similarly.
Speaker 4 00:04:02 Exactly. That's what's called the block universe. So the, the universe doesn't come into being just sits there, like a block already in place.
Speaker 3 00:04:11 You just, you discussed a couple terms, which, I mean, until I read your book, admittedly, I, I guess I, I intuited while reading different physics articles online, but didn't really know exactly what they meant and certain terms like information. Um, it, it refers to details used to specify any events, uh, at any point in time, like a system. I know you, you put in quotation marks in the book, describe as just an event that you want to describe. And from there you can calculate the systems and determine what will happen at any other moment in time. You can do just in any direction, time than making it time reversible, uh, what makes quantum mechanics though an exception to time reversibility?
Speaker 4 00:04:49 Yes, that's right. So, um, so I should probably first clarify that, um, information is used with slightly different meanings in different areas of physics. So, uh, if, if you're jumping into a book on a, on a completely different topic, it might get a little bit confusing, but it's right. That if, if we're talking for example, uh, typical case would be the black hole informational paradox. Then what is meant by information is really just all the details of the configuration of the system. So what does quantum mechanics change about this story? Uh, well, the issue is that in quantum mechanics, we have, um, some random jump basically. So we have, uh, time evolution that is reversible, uh, works forwards, uh, and backwards. So there's a one to one map between any two moments of time. But then if you make a measurement, you have a spontaneous update of the whole system, which is sometimes called the collapse of the wave function.
Speaker 4 00:05:52 It's also called, um, the measurement reduction, um, or, um, the, uh, the update of the wave function. And this is it's all the same thing. And it brings in a fundamentally random element. And, uh, if, if that's actually how nature works, which I think most physicists at the moment, uh, believe it is then the, the time evolution is not reversible because you could start with different initial states with different wave functions for, um, your system, whatever is not you describe. Uh, and then when you measure it, you, you get the same outcome though. The probability would've been different depending on what the initial state was,
Speaker 3 00:06:33 Our Sabina, the gloves are coming off. Now I'm gonna ask you one of the most difficult questions I can think of on, in a moment on the top of your head. Can you tell me how many seasons of Dr. Who there are?
Speaker 4 00:06:45 Oh my God. Uh, 39
Speaker 3 00:06:48 <laugh> you're right. Wow. <laugh>
Speaker 4 00:06:50 Oh my goodness.
Speaker 3 00:06:51 I saw that in your video. You're talking about that. So I was like, I'm gonna call you out on that, cuz you're worried on my history. I'm gonna just take it outta way right now. <laugh> <laugh>
Speaker 4 00:07:00 Okay. But I have to admit, you know, the reason why I know this is that several people posted it in the comments below my video.
Speaker 3 00:07:07 So you ah, damnit
Speaker 4 00:07:08 <laugh>
Speaker 3 00:07:10 Savi. Um, you ask a lot of your, the people you interviewing the book, they're religious. I think it's only fair to ask you that you do talk about this, the book, but for our listeners, would you identify as being religious?
Speaker 4 00:07:20 No, I'm not religious your, so my, my parents are both atheists, so, um, I, uh, was not, uh, Christianized. I, I I've never belonged to any church, but you won't be surprised to hear that. Uh, pretty much everyone. I knew like all the children of the other families, uh, they were going to church. It was either Protestants or Catholics, pretty much that that's it. So typically German, small town mm-hmm <affirmative> uh, and, uh, I didn't want to be left out. So I actually went to church with them for quite some time.
Speaker 3 00:07:53 The idea that earth in universe were created by something is in you talk one book, impossible to rule out, you know, that's not only UN falsifiable, but that it's also UN it's a scientific because it lacks any quantifiable explanatory power. Why is that?
Speaker 4 00:08:10 Yeah, so I, I call it a scientific because science doesn't say anything about it one way or the other. Um, so it doesn't confirm the existence of a creator, but it also doesn't say a creator does not exist. It just can't say, uh, anything about it. And, uh, yeah, the, the reason is that there just limits to what you can do with science. So, um, according to science, we we're comfortable saying that something exists. Um, if it's a hypothesis that describes what we observe, but that doesn't mean if we have a hypothesis that, uh, is, is not necessary to Des describe what we observe that this is wrong. It just means that it's not scientific.
Speaker 3 00:08:52 I want your help. And I, I think my listeners will appreciate that. I ask you this, how do physicists develop theories of the early universe?
Speaker 4 00:09:00 <laugh> well, um, yeah, that, that's actually a very good question. Um, so basically, um, at the moment we have Einstein's theory of general relativity, which we used to describe, um, how the universe changes as a whole, and we can use those equations forward and backward in time. So if you want to know what happened in the early universe, you take those equations and you need to know what matters in the universe and how this matter behaves and so on. And then you can roll them back. And, uh, if you do this, what happens is, um, you get the big bang. So there is a moment where the energy density becomes infinitely large, and that's the end of the story. And, um, that brings up the question like, is this really what happens? And I, and I think most other physicists think that this really just means that the equations break down.
Speaker 4 00:09:53 And so what a lot of physicists do is that they say, well, then let's just modify the equation so that they don't break down. So basically you stop this extrapolation, which you get from Einstein and, uh, at some early moment early enough, so that you can't actually observe and you chop them off and then you attach some other equation and that it sounds a little bit crude. So usually it's more like a kind of a crossover. So you add some terms which are small at the present time, but then become important at this, at this earlier time. Now, the problem with this, that there is that there are many different ways that you can do it. And this is why we have so many theories for the beginning of the universe. You can, for example, uh, you can turn the big bang into a big bounce. So there would've been an earlier universe that collapsed and, and then it, now it expands again. And that might collapse again and expand again, that gives you a cyclic universe, or it could have been a black hole, or it could have been something that wasn't geometric, like it could have been a big network of some sort or something with, uh, strings or something with higher dimensional membranes. So there are all kinds of stories that physicists have made up. Now, I think basically they're just, uh, modern creation, myths, uh, written in language of mathematics.
Speaker 3 00:11:11 What is the current theory for the universe right now? It's the concordance model.
Speaker 4 00:11:16 Yes. Uh, but, um, the concordance model, strictly speaking, doesn't really include this first moment of time or the creation of the universe. We normally use it to refer to what we reliably know, and that requires that there is some evidence for it.
Speaker 3 00:11:34 Yeah. Okay. So you mentioned there are alternative theories to describe how the universe began, but none that are really satisfactory to you and how you described them in the book. What's the fundamental flaw with these other theories?
Speaker 4 00:11:45 Well, it's not just that they're, uh, not satisfactory to me. Um, the problem is that they make a simple story, more complicated and, and that's scientific theory, shouldn't do this. So the simple story that we have is just saying, well, we, we take the concordance model and we extrapolate it further back in time. And that's what gives us the big bang. Now we have good reason to think that this is actually wrong, but we don't know, uh, how to do it better. And if you're asking, how much can we tell from science and from the evidence, the answer is we don't know how the universe began. And now the, the problem is that physicists don't want to leave it at that. So, so they make up all those other stories, but from a scientific perspective, the issue is that they are unnecessary to explain anything that we observed today. The concordance model would already be sufficient.
Speaker 3 00:12:35 What was in your opinion? Einstein's greatest blunder
Speaker 4 00:12:39 <laugh> oh, Jesus. Um, <laugh>
Speaker 3 00:12:41 Well, I <laugh>, well, okay. Immediately you talk about this. What is this issue of describing the problem of now? Oh,
Speaker 4 00:12:48 No. That you remind me. Yes, exactly. The problem. Sorry. Yeah. I'll clarify. Start. Right. So, um, I mean, I show himself, uh, I, I mean, it's like, I think it's not really clear if he actually said it. He was referring to the cosmological concept. And then also, I mean, he said at some point that gravitational wave stone exists, which, uh, also turned out to be wrong, but yeah, so, um, he, he was also very puzzled by this experience that we have of, uh, a moment that is now. And, uh, he seems to have thought, at least that that's my reading of what he said and what he wrote that this tells us something about the underlying physics. And I think this, this is a really, really big jump to make, um, from our human experience, like something that goes on inside this difficult thing that we call our brain to the fundamental loss of nature
Speaker 3 00:13:43 Of all the unanswered questions you go over in this book, what keeps you up the most at night?
Speaker 4 00:13:50 So I, I do think a lot about this questions. Why do we only get older and not younger? Because, uh, I mean, there, there sounds like a really vague question, but it has, uh, mathematical hard part. So to say, which is that we can phrase it in this question, why was the entropy small at the beginning of the universe? And we know it increases, but, um, we, we don't know why was small to begin with. And, uh, this is something which, um, I wonder about a lot. Uh, one possible answer is that, um, this notion of entropy, which we use at the moment is just not the correct one, or maybe there's something missing, or maybe it's actually something of the sort that we do live in a, in a cyclic universe.
Speaker 3 00:14:34 There's an entertaining chapter in your book here where you interviewed David Deut, he's a, he's a physicist known primary primarily for his work in quantum computing. He doesn't subscribe to reductionism, uh, believing that the laws we use to describe objects ends up losing its, its uh, explanatory power. As we continue to find it through smaller scales <laugh> you are skeptical of what he said. I was wondering if you explain why.
Speaker 4 00:15:01 Well, um, so I think his opinion, if I understand this correctly, it's a little bit more subtle than, uh, how you just summarize that. It's not that he thinks that, um, reductionism in, in the ontological way, that stuff is made of particles and um, the behavior of those particles dictates what the larger things do. He's not saying that this is wrong. I think he's just questioning whether it's useful. Um, so he's saying it could be that there are better ways to go about constructing loss of nature. And those would be starting with some overall principles that, um, apply to the loss of the universe as a whole and are not to be found in the properties of individual particles. And one example that he likes to bring up is the conservation of energy. So the way that we currently think about the conservation of energy, it's something that is the consequence of those microscopic laws of the particles and space and time.
Speaker 4 00:16:04 Well actually, um, maybe not the best example because actually energy isn't conserved in general activity, but let's leave this aside for a moment. So you can think about this as a consequence of those microscopic gloss, or you can think of it as a principle that applies to the universe as a whole. And another example that he has is the existence of a universal computer. So this is something which you could use as a postulate for a new theory that you, um, try to develop. Um, and you just say that loss of nature are so that in the evolution of the universe, those things that we call universal computers can be created. And then there's the question, what does it tell you about the loss of nature? And he calls this idea construc theory, and it's still in the very beginning. Um, and yeah, I, I'm a little bit skeptical about this because, um, I'm not sure that there's any way to take this overarching notch principle of just to stick with the example, this universal computer and actually manage to squeeze out some properties of those fundamental laws. But, um, I mean maybe, maybe succeed with it.
Speaker 3 00:17:20 I'm I was familiar with the main world's interpretation of quantum mechanics before reading your work. But I wasn't aware that there was more the one type of multiverse. Uh, could you talk about what the other multiverses or what of his was been postulated about different multiverses?
Speaker 4 00:17:37 Yeah, actually Brian Green has written a book about this and I think he lists nine different types of multiverses. So I I'll not go through this. No. Yeah, I don't. I list because I'll still be talking in two hours, but I, and I give you the ones that are probably the most best known. So there's many world's, uh, interpretation of quantum mechanics. Uh, you already mentioned this and then there is, um, the multiverse that comes out of eternal inflation, where basically there are infinitely many big banks that happen and they continue to happen. So there's not just our universe, but there's in, in even more infinite space, so to speak, um, where universes are created out of fluctuations in a field that's called the inlet on field and it's not just our universe that is created, but other universes and they could have different constants of nature. So this is one type of, uh, multiverse. And then, uh, there is, what's often called the strength theory landscape. Um, so in the strength theory landscape, um, you also have different universes with possibly different constants of nature. So I think those are the best known ones.
Speaker 3 00:18:49 You're skeptical of these different interpretations. I mean, in many worlds in general though, you think that there's really no, no observation of this to really suggest that that'd be possible.
Speaker 4 00:18:59 That's right. I mean, that's right. As a fact, uh, yeah, there are no observations, uh, because we can't observe those other universes like take, for example, the many words, interpretation, I mean, this is the whole point of the entire, uh, um, interpretation is that we don't observe the other outcomes of the experiment <laugh> so then of course we can't observe them. So, um, but this doesn't mean, um, that this interpretation is wrong. It just means that the question, whether those other universes, with the outcomes of an experiment that we don't observe, it's a scientific, you can believe that they exist, but you don't have to science doesn't say anything about it one way or the other
Speaker 3 00:19:43 With the whole base telescope, we're able to determine that there are 200 billion galaxies within the universe. These galaxies have their own gravitational pole resulting, uh, in clusters and these clusters, these galaxies connect to each other resulting in clusters. And then these clusters leave a trail that's called a galactic filament. Uh, there's a pattern that emerges that has led physicists called this, the cosmic web. I was wondering to talk about this and how sometimes scientists or physicists think that the, the cosmic web resembles a human brain and have led them to think the universe is thinking is so when you talk about that,
Speaker 4 00:20:21 Well, that, I think it's just something that, that Springs to your mind immediately, if you look at those pictures, uh, if, uh, you, you have them on your computer, it looks a little bit, but like the connector. So the, the connection of the neurons and synopsis, uh, in, uh, the human brain and this isn't entirely superficial, there's actually study. Um, interestingly it's a collaboration between an troph and, and a neuroscientist. Um, they have tried to quantify it and, uh, it turns out that they're, they are actually structurally similar, but they are also, uh, in many regards, very, very different. And I think the most important difference is how long it takes for signals to travel from one end to the other. So in, in the brain, it takes a fraction of a second. And, uh, so it's, it's a fairly compact thing. And this is why you can think quite a lot, uh, in, in the fraction of, in, in, in a few seconds. But if you look at the universe as a whole, um, then it's, uh, 10, 20 billion, light years in diameter, and it takes a long time to send a signal from one side to the other. And this is basically why the universe, if that's the only thing, you know, uh, this is why the universe can't really think, even though it kind of looks similar in structure to the human brain,
Speaker 5 00:21:49 Has physics ruled out free? Will, is it fair to say that we live in a deterministic universe?
Speaker 4 00:21:56 Well, that's, that's only partly correct. So it's correct. If you look at the theories pre quantum mechanics that we normally call them classical theories. So think of Newton's law, that kind of stuff. So, uh, in those theories, if you know the state of a system at one time in the past, then you can calculate what happens later up to some obscure, the county examples that I'll skip over because then they don't happen in nature anyway. Um, so this is what we call determinism. Uh, but then if you add quantum mechanics to the mix, then you get those in deterministic jumps every once in a while. Um, so the future is not entirely fixed, but to the extent that the future isn't fixed, uh, it's just entirely random. And, uh, the outcome of those quantum jumps are not willed by anyone or anything, uh, because they're, they're just random. And this is, this is how as for all we currently know from, um, the theories that we have confirmed with the experiment. And, uh, then I think I, I just return the question to you. Would you say that, uh, if you know this, would you say that you have free? Will
Speaker 3 00:23:06 I wouldn't say so. I'm definitely in your camp though. I think, especially reading your, your work last night. I, I like the example you gave from, NCHE saying that I think to show that the Will's free, you have to have, it can't have a cause from anything in which that makes it unco cause so I,
Speaker 4 00:23:21 Yeah, right. I, I find it. I find it difficult to make a sense of. Um, but I, I mean, um, to some extent you could say that's kind of a linguistic problem. Maybe we shouldn't take those words free will or that seriously. And then there are philosophers who have, um, put forward other possible ways to define free will and something about the autonomy about which you can make decisions and that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3 00:23:49 This has been my time talking with Sabina host builder about a new book, existential physics, a scientist guy to life's biggest questions. Sabina, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 4 00:23:58 <laugh> thank you for the interesting conversation.
Speaker 3 00:24:01 And now this
Speaker 6 00:24:15 Katie couldn't sleep. She tried to blame July's stick to her sheets, fans blowing hot air for her inability to reach a less than conscious anabolic state, which meant she could blame global global climate change for the 98 degree record heat stewing, Duluth her town on lake superior, the Midwestern ocean that was supposed to cool the air all summer. If she could blame global climate change, then she could blame every person in Minnesota with a gas, slurping SUV, every factory garbage burner, Turkey farm, or coal burning power plant. Katie could go on and on as she was about to do for a living as the new media outreach coordinator for clean water network. Her first full-time meaningful job as a 25 year old, former comparative literature major that morning, the organization's director had called with the good news. Her friends and housemates were thrilled. They offered to take her out that night and treat her to tacos and all the beer she could drink. Instead she chose to spend Friday night alone at home by midnight. She was lying in bed, staring at the worrying fan.
Speaker 6 00:25:41 Katie stretched her left arm out onto the hot sheet. Where was Marco? He was the one who had given her the nerve to apply for this job. Shouldn't she blame him for her sleeplessness. Katie first found Marco almost a year ago when she was pouring beer for the clean water network concert fundraiser, after the whole steadies local sea singer. How old those hood rat chicks are like razor blades. A guy with a cascade of blonded curls asked for a beer then said, don't you think misogynist lyrics should go the way of the dinosaur. She looked into his green eyes and blurted out the names of all the bands with ecologically smart lyrics that she would've hired, but I'm just a volunteer.
Speaker 6 00:26:33 They bantered about activist music until they both remembered his beer order. Katie got so agitated. She overfilled his cup, then splashed beer on her long brown hair. He offered to shampoo it off at his apartment. Later that evening together, they used up gallons of clean water on an acrobatic shower. Marco was her age and passionate about his master's degree studies in water resources and public policy for nearly a year. Katie had spent her nights with him, fused in an ecstatic mind and body meld until three weeks ago. When he proposed more community engagement at a crowded party in his building, she found herself kicking the bedroom door on the other side of which Marco was with another girl. Yes. Marco was a jerk. Yes. She had been having trouble sleeping since the last time she'd seen him. But look where she had landed because of him. Katie got out of bed, took her phone out of her purse and looked for messages. No Marco of course, but her dad on sabbatical from Thailand, ah, on sabbatical in Thailand had left a text. Congrats on full-time job. K FYI Pettet equals paradise. Met soulmate. Torana works at hotel there char plus I equal married so she can come to us. Can you give us dollars for plane ticket?
Speaker 6 00:28:12 Char Katie imagined a girl. As young as the agent studies grad students, her dad had been dating since the divorce from her mom. And what happened to his own money? Maybe Katie could blame her father for her insomnia. She checked her phone again, no messages from her mother. Katie was almost relieved. Her accountants' moms, her accountant mom's response to the news about Marco had been, men are a bad investment. Then she quoted her own mother complete with Katie's grandma's French accent. Yes. Cl C was an internment camp Menno. It was not so bad. I did not let it bother me. Lizette Tobe, let it fall letting it fall was not Katie's way, letting it fall. Allow lake superior's temperature to rise its ice covered to lower and its currents to speed up at a rate that would soon endanger its fragile food web. She was about to become media outreach coordinator for an activist organization. Shouldn't she take action against her own UNE?
Speaker 7 00:29:24 Thank you. This is Alison war. We're speaking with S tonight on right on radio. Alison has an impressive number of credits, including press 53, open awards, anthology, water, snow review, Waterstone review, natural bridge rhino, the pedestal, the Potomac and mm, arts.org among other journals and anthologies. Welcome Allison Morris. Hi. Talk about that first story. What, uh, caused you to pick that besides the fact that I told you it was my favorite story in the book <laugh>
Speaker 6 00:29:55 Well, um, I wrote the story because, um, I had been meeting some incredible 20 something, young women and I loved them and they were, they were all for Lauren, even though they had so much potential. And so I, I wanted to, to write about them. I was also responding to, um, a, a show at the soap factory because I, I, for 10 years, I, I led a reading series where I invited writers to respond to the artwork in the gallery. And this particular artwork had something to do with Craigslist, which is also some which also has something to do with the end of the story that I didn't read. Because even though this story is really, really short it's more than five minutes.
Speaker 7 00:30:50 <laugh> <laugh> well, that's interesting because this is a collection. If you wave a chicken over your head, that is all flash fiction. Mm-hmm <affirmative> why don't you explain a little bit about what flash fiction is and why did you choose that for this particular collection of stories?
Speaker 6 00:31:06 Okay. And if I sound like I'm reading sometimes it's because I am, because I'm really nervous. So I figured I'd have to like write some notes to remember who I am. Um, anyway, I've been, I've been writing really short stories between 500 and a thousand words for about 10 years mm-hmm <affirmative>. And one of the reasons is because, um, because I started, um, this reading series called talking image connection, um, where I invited writers to write poems or stories and response to artwork at the soap factory gallery, it's still running, but I'm no longer in charge. Um, each writer is given 10 to 12 minutes to read and as a reward I read too. Um, and I found out that, um, it took me about 10 minutes to read, uh, a thousand words story.
Speaker 7 00:32:02 Oh, okay.
Speaker 6 00:32:03 So,
Speaker 6 00:32:04 So I made, I made my, my story short also, you know, in readings, people had really short attention spans <laugh> so, so I wanted to keep them entertained. Um, also I had been working on my MFA also at Hamlin, um, for a while, and it was a novel, um, a really involved novel about Croatia and the war in the former Yugoslavia and animators. And, you know, I was like up to, up to here in, um, in long pros and I wanted to write something short. So I started doing that. I also, um, started writing articles that had word, and they all seemed to have word counts of a thousand words. And, um, and I, I didn't realize how challenging that was until I started doing it. But it was kind of a fun challenge
Speaker 7 00:32:57 Now for this particular collection, uh, they all seem to be stories a little bit about healing or there's one that has a trickster character in it's mm-hmm, <affirmative>, there's, uh, kind of a Jewish thread through them. And I'm wondering, you know, how did you pick these particular stories? What, uh, what, what the through line is and so on.
Speaker 6 00:33:17 Yeah. Um, well, this is, this is it's. This is hard for me to talk about because this could be its own like show
Speaker 7 00:33:24 <laugh>. Okay. It's
Speaker 6 00:33:25 Just like we could have, we could be like the, the other Krista tippets or something. Um, I'll I'll,
Speaker 7 00:33:34 Don't worry about it. Okay.
Speaker 6 00:33:36 Um, I'll cheat and read some of what my editor, what my editor at Redbird, um, Beth Meyer wrote about the collection across time and geography. These characters seem to wonder how can one live out goodness, in this eternally flawed world, thankfully Morris offers no easy morality or pat answers. Instead her rich images and intimate details add up, and the work is elevated each line, a captivating poem, every story and illumination what Beth is. Ference what Beth is referencing here is basically the Jewish idea of TKU alum, um, which has various meanings, um, in Jewish thought throughout, throughout history, but for the last, um, 75 years or so, it's been translated from the Hebrew as to repair or fix the world mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, and there are, there are a lot of arguments about what that means, but according to rabbi Michael learner, who, who started Coon magazine, um, it, it means emphasizing both humanities and God's co responsibility to heal and repair the world. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, and I'm not sure I'm not, I'm not always sure that I believe in God. Um, or the tenets of Judaism, even though I was, I am Jewish, I was born Jewish. Um, but my writing always grapples with this idea in some way. And that's about all I'll say right now.
Speaker 7 00:35:09 <laugh> um, why don't you read another, uh, bit of a story there for us?
Speaker 6 00:35:17 Sure. Um, I'll read, I'll read a little bit of the, the story that, that, um, that the title comes from, the, the story is actually called, um, continuing education
Speaker 7 00:35:35 <laugh> which this is the one
Speaker 6 00:35:36 That the, the title of the, but, but it involves waving a chicken over your head. Yes, <laugh> um, I'll just read a little bit of it again. It's a thousand words. So it won't fit into the, into the slot. Um, continuing education. The night before my mother died, she opened her eyes, sat up and vomited her hospice dinner. I wiped her chin with trembling hands. She whispered honey, you're already 41. I should have, I should have taught you how to kill a chicken. Maybe then you wouldn't be so afraid. I tried to think of something to say that wouldn't start an argument. She felt back asleep. I don't want to lose you. I said she did not wake up and stopped breathing at 5:00 AM. Three hours later, the mortuary attendance zipped her body emaciated from breast cancer into a rubber bag. I forced myself to watch, determine to prove to her how courageous I could be for the funeral.
Speaker 6 00:36:43 My husband, Josh made a poster out of my favorite photo of her taken when she was 13 on her parents' farm in North Dakota in it, she's smiling, wearing jeans, a cowboy hat tilts over one eye, hence Peck the ground by her feet, oblivious to the Jewish farm girl who took pride in cutting their throats with one clean wack. The rabbi from the funeral home, who'd never met. My mother conducted the service. I had fed him her story, the promise of freedom that led my Polish Jewish grandparents, who had never tilled a field to cheap land in North Dakota. My mother's birth and farm girl childhood, her senior, her senior year of high school, adjusting to Minneapolis after the farm inevitably failed her first love, which led to me my father's early death, her nursing career. When the rabbi mentioned my mother's prowess with a kosher chicken butcher knife, there were no, there were no kosher chicken butcher butchers.
Speaker 6 00:37:52 I'm sorry. I have to read that again. When the rabbi mentioned my mother's prowess as a kosher chicken butcher, there were no official SHS near the farm. I looked at the poster of her wimp. Her smile said to me, my face grew hot tears welded. I turned away and locked my arm around Josh's. We were both Minneapolis, born and raised Webb designers whose closest ties to farming were our trips to the farmer's markets. When we got home, I burst out crying, told Josh about my mother's last words, the feeling that I'd failed her, you can always learn to kill a chicken. He said he Googled chicken, kill Minneapolis, and found fresh feather, organic poultry farm. They offered a class cold, total chicken preparation. Uh, we could go together and learn to slaughter plug and clean in one in one session, the idea was unfathomable. I could barely stand to touch raw supermarket poultry.
Speaker 7 00:38:57 <laugh>. So how did you, uh, pick which stories you were gonna put in and how did you order them?
Speaker 6 00:39:06 Okay, well, um, I, I basically chose the stories I like best and the ones that other people said they like best and the ones that, the ones that sort, that still stuck with me, that I still had feelings for kind of like, like maybe boyfriends or something or girlfriends or, or children there's I don't know. Um,
Speaker 7 00:39:35 I was gonna ask you which your favorite was, but I know they're all your babies, so
Speaker 6 00:39:38 Right. You, you can't have a favorite, you, you know, if you're a bad mother, if you have a favorite
Speaker 7 00:39:44 <laugh>.
Speaker 6 00:39:46 Um, and I, you know, I, I put them all together and I took out a few that didn't, that didn't fit, that really didn't fit. Um, and then I tried different combinations. I tried, you know, maybe from the youngest character to the oldest character, um, really, you know, crappy endings to better endings, to not so crappy endings. Um, cuz all the endings are a little crappy <laugh> um, um, and then I thought maybe, well, how, you know, Beth, the Beth, my editor said, well, you know, what about, you know, you know, greater conscious, you know, not so conscious to greater consciousness. And I thought, okay, fine. Um, so that's kind of where, where it comes, where, where it goes, except that the first story and the last story, um, are really related to each other. They're, they're two very different, but very similar characters who are both who, who both to me are, you know, use their creativity to, to make, to make their, to repair their world, um, in, in a, in a really beautiful way.
Speaker 7 00:41:03 Mm-hmm <affirmative>, mm-hmm, <affirmative>, I'm, I'm always fascinated by process. Mm-hmm <affirmative> I like to get those books that say, you know, Ernest Hemingway wrote standing up and that kind of thing. Yeah.
Speaker 6 00:41:13 Because his back hurt
Speaker 7 00:41:14 <laugh> I'm wondering what your process is about, uh, especially about the emotional part mm-hmm <affirmative> how do you get in, how do you pull yourself back out again when you need to mm-hmm
Speaker 6 00:41:24 <affirmative> well, I think a lot of these, a lot of these stories kind of had, had an, like an outer, an outer carrot, you know, they like an outer deadline, like, like a contest or a, or somebody, you know, like a friend of mine said, can you write this story for me? Cuz I'm guest editor of this journal <laugh> um, or, um, or for reading at the soap factory or, or somebody like for one of the stories, um, a wonderful, a wonderful book artist decided that he was going to do an anthology and he gave all the authors, um, the last line of
Speaker 7 00:42:08 The
Speaker 6 00:42:09 Last line of a story and said write to this. And so I did, and that's one of the stories in here, except that I took out that last line. Oh
Speaker 7 00:42:17 <laugh> <laugh>.
Speaker 6 00:42:18 Um, but, but underneath that, you know, is personal personal stuff. And, and also just my surroundings, like one of the stories, the apartment, um, was inspired by a writing studio that I, that I had started working at. Um, that was an, that was a house that really reminded me of, of my, of my early on my life, right after college mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, and so that, that started, that started, you know, a
Speaker 7 00:42:57 Character, everything kinda rolls once you get a little instant of energy there.
Speaker 6 00:43:02 And I think a lot of times I'm inspired by an image. And in that particular case, it was, it was the image of this house that was the color of circus peanuts <laugh>. Um, and that, that had, that had, um, pizza, pizza hu coupons and, and empty and empty pizza boxes in the, in the foyer mm-hmm <affirmative> every time you walked in mm-hmm
Speaker 7 00:43:26 <affirmative> yes. Which,
Speaker 6 00:43:29 Which was me at one time <laugh>
Speaker 7 00:43:32 <laugh> the other one I'm particularly fond of. And I can't remember the exact title, but the one about the Fox.
Speaker 6 00:43:38 Ah, okay. That was the one that was the one that, that somebody gave me the last line for. Oh
Speaker 7 00:43:43 Really? Yeah. And, and uh, well you, you can't read the last line without the spoiler alert, but uh, uh, talk a little bit about that story of the Fox it's it's your trickster story? Mm-hmm
Speaker 6 00:43:53 <affirmative> well, well, he, the, the artist gave me, gave me the, um, the, the Fox, he said, you know, cuz that was part of the last line mm-hmm <affirmative> and I immediately, I think I had probably just seen, um, the fantastic Mr. Fox, um, at that time and I love foxes. I I'm from Queens, New York and coming to the Midwest and seeing foxes on your street or like in, in the park or, or going up north and seeing foxes is just magical to me. It's still it, no matter how many times I see a Fox, I'm always amazed and excited and I love them, even though I grew up with songs about, you know, terrible foxes who like, you know, who were, I mean, who are more like the coyote and the road runner who never, you know, who were being chased by everybody and never, and never got to eat,
Speaker 7 00:44:56 But, um, <laugh> had never really got any peace. Right.
Speaker 6 00:44:59 Exactly. Exactly. So, but as an, I don't know, I, I left that behind and fell in love with foxes <laugh>
Speaker 7 00:45:07 And well, we have a few minutes left and I just wanna briefly bring up your other project that you're working on now, the price of our clothes. Sure. Could you talk a little bit about that?
Speaker 6 00:45:18 Sure. Um, well, I'm, I'm the granddaughter of garment of a, of a garment worker from, from New York city, actually from, from BEUs who came with her, with her immigrant siblings and father to the, to the us, um, at the turn of the 20th century. And all of them got jobs in the garment industry and that was how they survived. And eventually, eventually, you know, had great lives, um, after being kicked basically, you know, after running away from pogroms because they were Jews, um, and also, and having no money and nothing having nothing when they came here and, um, they were, and uh, in 1911, um, there was a, the, the worst garment garment, factory disaster in, in history at the time, um, in New York city, it was called the triangle shirt waste factory fire. It was a, um, factory, um, in what is now, um, washing in the Washington square area.
Speaker 6 00:46:35 Um, it was actually three floors of a building there and, um, 146 workers were killed because the owners of the factory, um, left the doors locked because they didn't want the workers to leave before being frisked, because they were afraid that the workers had, were gonna leave with like a shirt or a button or something from the factory. Um, so the, the, the workers who were mostly women, um, young women who were mostly Jewish and Italian, um, recent immigrants, um, had most of them had to jump out of, well, they didn't have to the, they, they thought their only way to escape was to jump out the window. Um, and they were seen from below because, um, at the time, um, uh, fire engines didn't have, didn't have ladders long enough ladders that were long enough long enough. Yeah. Um, so anyway, they, they were jumping out of windows and they were on fire. And if, if you think about, you know, the image of nine 11, this was, this, this was really similar.
Speaker 7 00:47:54 Yeah. And you're tying that to a disaster in BOPA, right?
Speaker 6 00:47:58 No, I'm, we're tying, uh, I'm, I'm tying that to a disaster that happened in 2013 in Saar, Bangladesh. Oh, Bangladesh, I'm sorry. Where a nine floor building that has housed five factories, um, collapsed due to the, the idiot due to lots of things, mostly negligence, um, and, and, um, killed over a thousand people. Wow. Um, who were crushed in the crushed by the building,
Speaker 7 00:48:27 That's terrible and it's gonna be poetry and artwork.
Speaker 6 00:48:30 Right. We're going to do an, we, we're going to do an exhibit. Um, that involves poetry artwork, the interviews, we, we went to Bangladesh and interviewed, um, survivors of the rhino Plaza collapse. Um, and that, that will also be part of the exhibit as will readings of the poetry, um, and, and, uh, and sculpture and, and artwork that my colleague Rachel did with, um, scraps that we scraps of garments that we found on the side of the road on the way to toss.
Speaker 7 00:49:06 Wow. Wow. That sounds very moving.
Speaker 6 00:49:09 And, and that will be, that will be in the spring that that will happen in the spring at Carlton.
Speaker 7 00:49:15 Well, I hope you will come back on to talk about that than more depth. Sure. I could talk
Speaker 6 00:49:21 For too long
Speaker 7 00:49:22 <laugh> we will, we will, uh, keep, uh, our listeners posted about that, uh, exhibit and all the work that you've been doing. Alison, since X, we could have talked a long time and I really appreciate having you here. Uh, you've been listening to Alison Morris, and now this,
Speaker 8 00:50:38 You are listening to right on radio on K F a I 90.3 FM and streaming live on the
[email protected]. I'm Annie. I'd like to thank our special guest tonight, Saab ho Fedder and all our listeners without your support and donations KFA would not be possible. You can find more news and info about right on radio at KFA i.org/right on radio. And you can listen to all your favorite, right on radio episodes on Spotify, iTunes, Google podcast, apple podcasts, and more. So please stay tuned to Boger Minnesota. And thank you for joining us.
