Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: The punch landed a right in my eye, rocking me back. I cursed and took a few steps backs, ignoring the smug smile on my opponent's face as the crowd went wild. Shit, that's turning into a black eye for sure. I'd need to shout out some of my f winnings to get it fixed if I didn't want to spend a few hours lectured by the matron again. And that was assuming I won. If I lost, I was going to be short on funds for a while. The man started circling in me like a murder of crows, unhurried but intense tent, and I brought up my fists. The bandages wrapped around my fingers were still flecked with blood from the few hits I'd landed earlier in the fight, but a ridiculously large fighter going by Fen had shrugged, dozed off too easily for comfort. If it is turned into an endurance slugging match, I wasn't going to win. The man had at least 50 pounds on me, and he looked like he'd been carved out of a slab of solid muscle. I was faster than him, but he knew that. It was the reason he stayed on the defensive, letting me land hits in exchange for getting in one of his own. And his hurt me a lot more than mine hurt him. Come on, foundling old woman in the back yelled, wreck the bastard. I spat out a mouthful of blood pooling in my mouth and moved forward. The longer this went on, the larger his advantage got. I needed to end it quick if I was going to have even a slight shot at winning. I added a little spring to my step to see if it would make him flinch, but the big bastard was serene as a pond. It was a shame growing shots were illegal, since one of those would have gotten him moving for sure. I flicked a jab at his jaw, but Fen let it pass, pivoting to get a little closer. Got you. My fist buried itself in his stomach, viciously drawing a strangled gasp as I danced away, back out of his reach. The part of the crowd that had put money on my victory cheered, while from the rest came a cacophony of jeers.
[00:01:44] Speaker B: You just heard Web serial novelist David Verberg read from A Practical Guide to Evil. David Verbrook has written two web serial novels since 2015, a practical guide to Evil and Pale Lights.
David, welcome to Write On Radio.
[00:02:03] Speaker A: Hi. Pleasure to be here.
[00:02:06] Speaker B: For our listeners who don't know what is a web serial novel and what drew you to this format.
[00:02:14] Speaker A: Basically any novel published on the web is a web novel, and a web web serial is a subset of that which is a novel that is published chapter by chapter, usually in a weekly or monthly format.
As for what drew me to the format originally is, well, when I was quite a bit younger, I had quite a few writing projects, but never quite a discipline to go through with getting a fully finished book. So I figured that putting it out there in public with other people, where other people would see it and there was a precise deadline, would shame me into actually getting those chapters out. And would you look at that? It did.
[00:02:58] Speaker B: So you said updating weekly or even multiple times a week for Practical Guide to Evil. That must be a huge amount of writing. How do you maintain your output and pace of that writing?
[00:03:12] Speaker A: Honestly, I don't, which is why it's very important to have basically have a few chapters in advance so I can eat up in that reserve if for a particular leak, I'm not as productive. But honestly, routine helps. Specific hours I work at specific places.
And at the end of the day, while I love writing, I couldn't see myself doing anything else. It is still very much a job. If I have a deadline, I have to get it out. At some point, I have to sit down and hash it out whether I'm perfectly satisfied with the final result or not.
[00:03:54] Speaker B: So one of the problems that some readers have with web serial novels is that they tend to have pacing issues.
How do you try to deal with the issues of pacing a story that is read both installment to installment, by people who are keeping up, and then often binge read by new readers?
[00:04:17] Speaker A: When people talk about pacing issues in web serial, they tend to come from the angle that they're comparing it to a traditional publication, like the kind of book you'd pick up in a library or buy in a store. I don't think that's really an accurate basis of comparison for something like a web serial, which is, you could call it a descendant of newspaper serials like you would have with Dickens and Doyle back in the day. And when you look at that, if you research those things a little bit, they tended to run into very much the same issues as in storylines would drag on a little because sometimes if your readers haven't seen your character, the character that's on screen for like the last two months because of the nature of the publication, then you need to slip in a reminder of who that person is and what they're about, otherwise the reader is going to feel lost. It's different now that it's on the web because someone can binge, which I guess back in the day would have meant accumulating quite a few newspapers.
But I understand when when people say that from a binging perspective a book doesn't hold up as well or holds up better depending on how it's written. But it's not exactly the same genre. At the end of the day, which editing some of my work for a traditional publication became quite obvious because quite a lot of work has to stay on the cutting board because otherwise, well, it just doesn't really fit in a traditional book.
[00:05:57] Speaker B: So you are currently producing an edited version of your first work, A Practical Guide to Evil, while also writing and releasing your new web serial, Pale Lights. Has the process of editing A Practical Guide to Evil changed how you currently write Pale Lights?
[00:06:16] Speaker A: Yeah, I'd say in two different ways. The first one is practical got to Evil when I started Verse book was pretty much the beginning of my professional writing career. So I can going back and editing that has the satisfaction of erasing old mistakes, but also has a very clear parallel to now the second series I'm beginning.
I guess it highlights the mistakes that I made when I was starting out and how I should avoid them starting a second series. Also now that I'm working with editors, I guess a lot of my writing habits that were never really corrected because I'm my own writer and editor on the Internet pointed out by a professional editor. For example, I used he grunted or she grunted quite often as a dialogue tag in my work, which I admit form is not proper writing and I should maybe fix that. Still up in the air whether or not I will. But there's a little a lot of idiosyncrasies that you get writing on the web, usually without an editor or just the feedback of the Internet instead of professionals that developers adds up and editing my work has brought that to the surface, so to speak.
[00:07:37] Speaker B: That is fascinating. Are there any particular issues that you've had? Because you said looking at old problems that that you had when you first started writing and being aware of those, is there anything that you would point pick out other than the he grunted or she grunted?
[00:07:57] Speaker A: I mean specifically, I can't speak for more general stuff, but specifically for A Practical Guide to Evil, early character voices tend to be a little off compared to the rest of the series, which a lot of fans of the series have picked out.
Reading back because the characters weren't quite settled in my mind yet, which is I mean, I guess common enough for writers. You look at the early Discworld and the Patrician is very much not the same character. He's later in the series.
[00:08:27] Speaker B: Yeah, as well, as the edited version of your first work, there is currently a webtoon adaptation of A Practical Guide to Evil that is being released. How much influence over that production do you have and how much have you had to let go of the reins over that project?
[00:08:46] Speaker A: I'm a consultant, essentially for that. As in I will be sent chapters. They'll ask me for my opinion if something fits or doesn't fit. Does this maybe need to be fixed sometimes have a look at a dialogue because there's.
It's different. Well, my narrative style put on a page where you only see a little bit of the protagonist's inner thought and a little bit of dialogue. So. But at the end of the day, I don't really have veto power over something I don't like. But they've been very respectful and accommodating in a sense that this is a team that wants to adapt this as well as they can. So. Well, if I'm available as a resource, obviously they're going to reach out to me.
[00:09:35] Speaker B: In addition to all of these big events happening in your work life, you also recently became a new father. How have you been balancing these big moves in your work life in addition to this huge change in your personal life?
[00:09:49] Speaker A: Ooh, that's. Yeah, that's been a ride.
I would say the big change has been my work schedule because I used to basically start working around noon and stop working in the early hours of the morning with one or two break during the day.
That's not really an option anymore, if only because my girlfriend, basically, she handles the kid for most of the night and then I handle it from evening to early in the morning.
My son, rather Laha. And that means I have a specific time I need to be back home at. So there's no more working through evening, which already I was trying to weed myself off of because it's not great for just, you know, basic relationship stuff if you're always working the evening.
But yeah, no, the schedule has been.
It's an adjustment. So far it's working. I'd say my productivity went down a little, but I guess when I pick up the new habits, it's going to hopefully shoot back up.
[00:11:03] Speaker B: I mean, considering all of the different plates that you're spinning right now with the adaptation and editing and writing, it's impressive that you've managed to keep all of those up while being a new father.
[00:11:20] Speaker A: It's. Yeah, it's more plates than I figured. I didn't really pick the timing on that because the webtoon in particular has been in the works for several years now. It's just basically all aligned in that same moment. And I guess it's sink or swim now so far. Heads above the water. Let's see how it keeps going.
[00:11:40] Speaker B: All right. Do you think becoming a father has changed the perspective you bring to your writing?
[00:11:47] Speaker A: I'd say it's changed my perspective overall, and that bleeds through in the writing whether you like it or not. It's mostly a matter of I can try to think of the future in 60 years in abstract. Or rather a few years ago I would have done that, and you know, you care about what happened after you. But there's more of a personal stake now, knowing that I have a kid and he'll be dealing with that situation and I don't. I mean, I write fantasy usually when I don't make direct references to real world stakes or anything, but just the perspective I think I understand better than I would have before.
[00:12:31] Speaker B: Let's take a moment to read your second selection, and then we'll get back to the rest of the interview.
Perfect.
[00:12:41] Speaker A: None of the skeleton keys were working. The landlord must have sprung for good looks, which was admittedly sensible of the man, considering that Tristyn was currently trying to rob one of his patrons. You should have started with a lockpick, fortuna said. Told you, didn't I? She was leaning against a dinghy wall in the weak light of the soul lantern in the hallway, long red dress sweeping to the ground, and her tone openly bored. She'd not lowered her voice in the slightest, which would have risked waking up their friend on the other side of the door. If anyone but Tristen could hear her, they couldn't, any more than they could see or touch her. Fortuna herself still had senses, but she had grown far too weak to touch the material world. As far as he knew, Tristane Abrascal was the sole contractor to the lady of Longalt in all of Vesper, and he knew much Fortuna was not the kind of goddess that disliked the sound of her own voice. And to think I was once mistress of queens and emperors. Entire festivals were thrown to earn even a single approving glance from me, tristan Fortuna mourned. Now all I may call on as a single orphan, one with terribly middling thieving skills. He rolled his eyes. All the old gods, like they claimed they had once been the greatest deity to ever crawl out of the aether to make pacts with men, or even rule over them back in the times of the Old Night. But in his experience Most of them were no more glorious than the dusty thieves and beggars of the murk they made contracts with. Love. You too, Tristan muttered back as he reached for the lock picks.
[00:14:06] Speaker B: That was David Verberg reading from his new work, Pale Lights.
Your characters often take, let's call them ethically ambiguous actions for power or survival. And both of your stories are to some extent about survival and what actions are acceptable when survival is threatened, whether that be on an individual level, a state or societal level, or an existential level.
What drew you to exploring this theme?
[00:14:39] Speaker A: I'd say for both series to some extent, for a bit of context. I'm Canadian, from the province of Quebec, which is the French speaking part of the country, and I'm from a French speaking household, even though I ended up working in English. And essentially it's hammered into our education from an early age that the only reason Quebec still speaks French is that we take pretty strict measures, language laws to keep it that way. That our culture is always at risk of being dissolved in the North American sea of English speaking. And I guess that's what interested me in what brought me to that point of view in that Catherine, the protagonist of my first series, starts in an occupied country where basically the way of life of that country is at risk of being absorbed by a larger, wealthier empire. And then we go to Pale Lights, which I guess is a different take on the theme which several of the characters have to deal with the impact of. I guess we could call it imperialism.
As in one of the characters is from a nation that's essentially been colonized and the other one has benefited from that colonizing, which leads to a lot of contrast and conflict, but also try to address the legacy of being born in that kind of situation and how we can affect your perspective.
As for the more the ethical dilemmas, that's I guess that's part of the deconstruction section that I tend to put in my work for the Guide, which is a fantasy series. It's in fantasy series, whether we like it or not, like our morality tends to be the protagonist's morality and they commit a lot of violence and it's not really commented on because if you're a paladin and you you murder a goblin tribe, that's not really considered a bad thing, that they're the father. So Guide was kind of an exploration of what that morality looks like from the other side of the fence. While for Pale Lights one of the main themes is revenge and to what extent what you do to take revenge on people can be justified, and at what point you are becoming yourself worse. And if there really even can be such a thing.
[00:17:30] Speaker B: I read Practical Guide to Evil in part as a critique of the Great man theory of history, where the course of history is changed by singular individuals warping the world to their desires.
How consciously do you explore these ideas and messages in your story?
[00:17:53] Speaker A: The thing is, I didn't sit down and set out to write. The Great man theory of history is wrong, and people who should ascribe to it should feel bad. On the other hand, I kind of feel that way. So I guess that's how I built the world that I wrote to work. And I guess when I tried to make the most sensible ideologies for people, that automatically bled through. So a lot of the people who make the best arguments believe that as well.
[00:18:30] Speaker B: Many of the cultures that you write in your stories are directly based on real world cultures, which can have some unfortunate implications if not handled carefully. What are the advantages of basing your writing on historical societies, and how do you try to do this respectfully?
[00:18:48] Speaker A: Let's first start by saying that I didn't always handle it as carefully as I should when I started out. And even now and then I stumble across even now on stuff that I didn't do perfectly and people are helpful enough in pointing it out that I can usually fix it.
I will say basically, the Speak on Guide guide as a fantasy series was meant as a deconstruction. And in typical fantasy, you're gonna have a semi evil nation that's based either on Arabic people or on Sub Saharan Africa usually. And to have a deconstruction, you need to have like the basic elements that are recognizable to someone who's familiar with the trope, which means having an empire that looks at least semi evil with, you know, coded in the ways I just mentioned. So I like to think that I went deep enough in the story to deconstruct how a lot of this evil stuff is mostly nonsense. But it remains a fact that if someone just reads the basic surface stuff that doesn't really engage with the text, they're just going to see, well, in this, basically anybody who's a person of color looks like they're kind of evil.
So it's easy to have unfortunate implications. And definitely it's a process in learning and how to try to avoid that as much as possible while still engaging with the theme.
And I think it's been slightly handled better in pale lights.
But one of the things I enjoy about going back and editing the Guide is that I can kind of massage the text a little bit, take the worst edges off, and try to engage with the entire thing more respectfully, let's put it that way.
[00:20:56] Speaker B: The premise of A Practical Guide to Evil is that story patterns have an effect on the world. And so you obviously draw from a lot of myths and tropes common to fantasy literature. Are there any particular stories that you drew from and are there any works of fiction that you drew from for your new series, Pale Lights?
[00:21:16] Speaker A: The funny thing about Practical Guide to Evil is that while it is obviously a fantasy story, a lot of the themes are more superhero in some ways.
[00:21:28] Speaker B: Hmm.
[00:21:30] Speaker A: It's the gamification of good and evil sort of making it more of a performance, as you can kind of see in comics, for example.
But for the actual world building, I drew basically on every fantasy series I'd ever read. But standouts would probably be Glenn Cook's works in general, Black Company in particular, Malazan, Book of the Fallen.
Some of those inspirations are quite obvious. Yeah. For Pale Lights basically when I had that setting 90% done, I felt there. There still lacked something like a snap that would bring it together. Like I was playing with different options and I ended up running into Sunless Sea, which is the game set in the fallen London universe.
And it just put those last details together.
So yeah, I definitely drew on that. And while I definitely have some access to grind with Harry Potter, I actually went back and read some of those books while I was setting up the second book of Pale Lights at the very least, because just as beloved, still beloved and functional example of something that's set in a magical school that balances pretty decently the main plot with the lessons and the social aspects.
It was more in a technical sense than content wise for that.
[00:23:10] Speaker B: That leads me to my next question, which. There are certain elements from games like Fallen London or Blades in the Dark that are very similar to the setting that you created for Pale Lights. Where do you think parts of a setting become genre elements instead of a unique element of a particular story?
[00:23:28] Speaker A: I'm not actually familiar with Blades in the Dark besides awareness that it's a game system that some people enjoy.
As for when Shock element is a unique element, I'd say it's a fine line, but I tend to call an element unique to a story when it can stand up on its own outside of that story.
Just to figure, for example, you. You could have a. A magical school in any number of books. And there are like Harry Potter very much did not invent that.
You go back to the ruse and it's in folklore and something like the end, the entire setting is in an underground cavern that's dark is.
But definitely I took inspiration from Fallen London for that. But I will say that I've seen it in some other places or similar enough in other places, and it's broad enough that it could be. You could have those elements and have a fundamentally different story from anything in Sunless Sea or anything in my story and half a dozen different stories.
But you take something like the Four Houses of Hogwarts, and outside, like the specific of the routing is writing, it doesn't hold up.
That's part of what makes Harry Potter. Harry Potter, so to speak. And I guess I could name a dozen little small elements of Fallen London as well that don't really hold up well outside of that setting.
I tend to think that the broader an element is, the less you can really call it unique. Because whether you like it or not, you have drawn from something else.
[00:25:31] Speaker B: Well, we've only got a few minutes left. David Verberg, where can people find your work?
[00:25:39] Speaker A: I would say Google A Practical Guide to Evil, and that's the first result for you.
But you can look for me on Patreon by the name Erratic Erata, and that will link you to all my works. And you can subscribe to that Patreon as well if you'd like.
Otherwise, on Roll Road, which is, I guess, where web novels are these days, you can find my current series, Paylights, which is still updating weekly.
[00:26:13] Speaker B: All right, David Verberg, thank you so much for your time.
[00:26:17] Speaker A: My pleasure.
[00:26:19] Speaker B: And now this.
