Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:51 Hello, and thank you for your wonderful patience tonight on, right on radio here on 90.3, FM K F a I um, me Annie Harvey view, and my good friend, Liz olds will spend the whole hour interviewing Stephanie Trudeau editor of the Dylan tapes in the late sixties. Her coworker and partner, Anthony STO recorded 36 hours of interviews with friends and colleagues of Dylan. Stephanie has it pulled together and edited, um, these interviews into a fascinating oral history.
Speaker 2 00:01:20 Anthony STO 1930, she to 2017 was a journalist and biographer of brought musicians who also wrote under the name Tony SCADA alongside his landmark, Bob Dylan and intimate biography. He wrote histories and biographies of MC Jager, Frank Sinatra, Marilyn Monroe, and John F. Kennedy, a celebrated actress, singer and writer. Stephanie Trudo met Anthony Scudo in 1972 and was his wife and researched assistant from 1978 until his death. Stephanie, are you there? Stephanie? Are you there? Hello? Oh, great. You're there. Oh, wonderful. This is Liz. Hi,
Speaker 1 00:02:09 And this is Annie. It's so nice to meet you.
Speaker 2 00:02:13 Um, why don't we start with your reading? Do you have a reading prepared? Are you there?
Speaker 3 00:02:23 Can you, you can't hear
Speaker 2 00:02:24 Me now. We can hear you. Sorry. Uh, why don't we start with your reading?
Speaker 3 00:02:29 Okay. Uh, but I wanted to, to add that among the books, he, that he wrote biographies of all these different, uh, pop figures and John of Kennedy's more than a pop figure. He also wrote a really strong investigative journalism book, uh, called states goat. And it was about the, uh, Lindburg kidnapped trial. The, the, uh, Bruno Richard Halman what Tony did is you went through all kinds of, uh, police files, FBI files, and found an awful lot of information that had been suppressed. Um, quite clearly he felt Brunner Richard Halman was a scapegoat mm-hmm <affirmative> and probably did not kidnap and did not kill the Lindberg child. So, and I bring that up because the point of Tony's book on Bob Dylan and any of these people, Mick Jagger, cetera, is that he was first and foremost, a great investigative journalist mm-hmm <affirmative> that's his background.
Speaker 3 00:03:29 That was his forte. And what he did with the Bob Dylan book was for the first time treating a pop culture, figure, pop music in a very serious way, and went at it as a good investigative journalist, get the story and then tell it great. So, um, I thought it was important to point that out. Sure. Thank you. Um, and now I'll just read, I would love to, so I think we should start with of course, echo Halstrom, who was from Hibbing, Minnesota, and was Bob Dylan's high school sweetheart. And is the girl from the north country. Uh, so Tony asked her, did he ever talk about anybody else, how they were straight square? Didn't know what the world was like echo said, I remember him going down to Minneapolis and coming back and saying how groovy everybody was there. And, you know, everybody is with it.
Speaker 3 00:04:28 And nobody in inhibiting would even understand or begin to be able to understand what's different. And that's how we started talking in the first place. Everyone was so square in the very fact that we could communicate or be on each other's level and speak the same language was a miracle. Tony then asked, did you get the feeling that Bob felt he was an outsider even among his peers among the other high school kids? Yeah, definitely. Tony, did you get the feeling he knew he was different and he was just waiting to break away. Echo said, yeah. Like, you know, when school was over gone and that's just what happened.
Speaker 3 00:05:09 Thank you. So then we can move on to Minneapolis and Greta Hoffman who was, um, also a folk singer, um, dancer. She, uh, graduated from, uh Benington. Um, she was the one who, uh, taught Bob Dylan how to play, uh, house of the rising sun. Ah, so, and her husband, uh, Dave Whitaker also taught, he was the one that turned, uh, Dylan onto Woody Guthrie. He gave him found for glory, Woody Guthrie's autobi. Um, so they, they were pretty instrumental in kind of moving him along in his direction. And they were part of the whole dinky town scene in Minneapolis. So Gretel said, when I first met Bobby, he claimed he was an Okie that's the other thing I'm sure. You know, it's this incredible imagination that sometimes you really didn't know. And I think he didn't know what was the truth anymore and what was his involvement with it.
Speaker 3 00:06:11 And so the whole initial set of stories when I first met him was that he was an Okie that he was an orphan that he'd been on the road for years as a piano player. This big thing was that he was a piano player and just starting to play the guitar that he lived in California. There were a hundred stories. And after a while it dawned on us all that they were really all stories, but it kind of didn't matter, you know, Tony asked why didn't it matter G brittle, because he was so vivid and so interesting and so much fun. I think I came to the conclusion that I didn't care about the quote unquote truth of what he was, that it was sort of irrelevant.
Speaker 2 00:06:56 Thank you. You okay. Um, let's start with the question that I have for you. I'm curious, these interviews have been on tape for a long, long time, and I'm wondering what inspired you to take care of this, to do this book right now, as opposed to five years ago or five years from now, what was the thing that moved you right now to put this together?
Speaker 3 00:07:20 Oh, okay. Well, Tony died almost five years ago. It will be five years ago in December. Um, and about a year before he died, he was rummaging around in the basement for some crazy reason, came across a box of his tapes, seen over 36 hours of his interview tape, uh, that were really the, the raw material, the, the, uh, the primary source material for his book. Um, Bob Dylan and intimate biography published in 1971. Anyway, he came upstairs and he said, oh my God, I found all these tapes. I don't know what to do with them. And, uh, and they were real to real. It's a very old school. Um, we were really try, we offered them actually the Dylan archive or collection in Tulsa was just getting started. They were sort of interested, but not really. And, uh, then another friend said to us, you know what, you should just turn this into a book.
Speaker 3 00:08:18 Well, Tony really was not well at the time. Um, he had been sick for a long time and he, he said, I don't think I have the energy to do this. And I said, well, how about if I kind of work on it and you guide me, that's what we started with. So I wrote the proposal, I got the book sold. Um, then he passed away and I thought, sure, I could just drop it all, but I didn't, I really wanted this to, to, to happen. It just seemed terribly important as his legacy. Um, and as a companion piece to his biography, because it, it really is also, I just felt so strongly that people had to see what a great journalist he was, what a great interviewer. I, I think this book is like a masterclass in the art of the interview. It's a masterclass in journalism.
Speaker 1 00:09:08 So in publishing these interviews, this set of Dylan interviews, what ideas did you wanna explore or questions? Did you wanna answer about Dylan and his life, his choices, his ethics, you name it?
Speaker 3 00:09:24 Hmm. Well, going through all the different tapes and it was the 36 hours when I had, I had a digitized, then I turned it, then it was turned into word documents. I, I had something like 250,000 words and wow. To bring that down to something. I mean, my editor at, uh, at university of Minnesota press said, uh, this is like really a lot. <laugh>, you know, can we cut this down to 125,000 words? And that's what I had to do. I wanted primarily to the little things that might not have made it into the book, but were really interesting and still pushed the story along. So I wanted that, of course. Um, and, and in terms of putting it together, of course, just telling the story to me was so fascinating. Um, again, this, as I, you know, as echo said, they were really two outsiders and I don't think there's enough of echo in the book and it can't be, I mean, Tony had to, he had to whittle down and edit, um, this idea, I see these two kids, there's 17 years old.
Speaker 3 00:10:31 Uh, echo is listening to the radio, like from Chicago, at three in the morning, or from Kansas city and turning Bob onto, uh, Dylan onto, um, black blues. And, and then he, then her mother was turning him onto hillbilly songs, country, Western, you know, so all of these influences and these two kids who seemed to find each other, I thought that was like, great to get that story really going. And the sense of, yeah, he was an outsider and he, he, he had to get to New York. I mean, he had to get to Minnesota, Minneapolis first, then New York. And, um, I mean, we just know that he had this incredible brain, this, these amazing ideas, this poetry, um, now I'm, wasn't gonna do the songs, but I really wanted the sense of the creative force and that he just kept doing it and kept doing it. And he found his way to do it. Um, excellent. Cause, you know, because coming to New York, I mean he had no money. He had nothing and he just, he just found the people that were gonna help him. He found the set, you know, the, the, the groups, uh, the creative groups and just kept plugging away and, you know, genius rises to the top. It just does.
Speaker 1 00:11:47 <laugh>. So Dylan, as we now know, if we weren't already aware has a tendency to self mythologize, and in some ways that's building himself, you know, turning himself into the legend he's become. And in some ways it's blatantly lying about himself. Like you mentioned in your previous reading him saying that he's from Oklahoma, um, what do you think
Speaker 3 00:12:08 He's an Oakey.
Speaker 1 00:12:10 Yeah. What do you think that his, uh, I guess, tendency to blatantly lie about himself, um, due to the honesty of these interviews or people's recollections of what Dylan had told them that made it feel either clarifying or further mystifying?
Speaker 3 00:12:30 Uh, I'm not sure. I understand you a hundred percent, but are you asking me, why was he building the myths about himself or what's the importance of that? How other
Speaker 1 00:12:42 People I was asking more like, um, it's hard to say why someone lies or why, or, or spins the story of themselves. But I was saying, how does it affect how people perceive the information that he gives them? Like, whether like in the previous reading, someone had mentioned thinking that he was, um, lying, but also that he was so interesting that it kind of didn't matter. Like, um, what is the feeling that you get as you work on this project? Or what do you think kind of the consensus was between people who, um, you, who were interviewed
Speaker 3 00:13:17 Over and over? You get the sense? Yes, he is building a myth. All right. So he comes from this very solid middle class, Midwestern, you know, Northern Midwestern background. His, his father had a hardware store or, or no was an appliance store. I mean, there's nothing poetic in his background at all. Uh, they're cultural Jews there. I don't think, I don't believe that they were really practicing. Um, so he didn't even have a kind of culture that he could hang onto. Although I think he probably always felt a little bit outside, uh, of the sort of mainstream. Um, so I think it was important for him to make a persona, especially if he was going to have a show business life, or, and I, that sounds, uh, you know, cause he was, but he was gonna have a life in music and in the arts.
Speaker 3 00:14:11 So not just show business, I was not, maybe that's not such a great term to use, but have a life in the art. And I think so I think he, he was trying on all kinds of personas mm-hmm <affirmative> um, I think he, you know, it's like trying on a different costume, you know, like, does this hat work or maybe I should wear this vest or, you know, so he was working on this whole sense of being different. I mean, he did not wanna be Robert Zimmerman. I mean, that was just not gonna work. He was Bob Dylan. Um, however people, I think after a while people caught on, well, there was this, uh, a couple of the people, uh, rambling Jack alley said, you know, like we, we didn't know at first whether he was Jewish, what he was, then we realized he's Jewish and it's like, well, what the hell?
Speaker 3 00:14:57 What the heck? It doesn't even matter. You know? Um, uh, they just accepted because I think they were all kind of trying to find their way and find their personas and their identity. And remember also he's a young guy mm-hmm, <affirmative>, he's 18, 19 years old. That's, that's what you do when you're that age. You try to figure out who you are and what you make of yourself as you're trying to make your life. Why did people accept it? Because he was so interesting and so captivating, funny and brilliant. And even when he was mean and nasty and obnoxious, it was like, okay, because he's also so brilliant. And I have a little reading from Phil OS who was very, they were very competitive. I mean, really, really competitive. And Phil Oak said at one point, I mean, you had to be really quick and sharp and on your toes because we were just going at each other, all of us, you know, it was Tom Paxton was like this group that just went at it and one up to each other and was more brilliant and more witty and more clever. And he said, if you weren't sharp, you couldn't even survive. So, um, you know, there that's there's that competitiveness, but there is also the recognition that there was something so solid there and I wanted to get that across. I think that's really fascinating.
Speaker 2 00:16:24 Great. Thank you so much. Uh, Liz here, I'm wondering if there's particular interviews that you found most interesting or edifying as you were going through them who, whose interviews, uh, really sparked your interest?
Speaker 3 00:16:40 Um, Phil Oaks really sparked my interest because he was so kind of stream of consciousness in, in the interview. I mean, at one point I thought, well, how do I edit this? And then I feel like I don't, mm-hmm, <affirmative> just, this has to, you know, it's like Jack Cark kind of thing. It was just like pouring out and it was all over the place, but it was really fascinating because it's, it was like, you could, you could really feel the wheels spinning in his brain, as you saying, these things rambling, Jack Elliot, who rambled on and on and on was also pretty interesting. I love Izzy young because he's so west village, New York, uh, folk, folk Laris, um, very political, very, you know, I mean he would be, he was kind of, he was kinda like the Bernie Sanders type, you know, <laugh> um, and it was, he was fascinating, the things that he had to say, he was taking notes all through his relationship with Bob Dylan, cuz he was, he just had such a sense of this guy is really interesting.
Speaker 3 00:17:43 Really gonna be it. Um, John Hammond, I adore because he's such, um, he's like from this other world, uh, you know, this very waspy guy who, um, uh, I think his, I think his background is Whitney and yet he was so in love with black music, black blues, jazz, and right from the very, very beginning. And, and he saw something named Bob Dylan and I, I have a little reading from him as well. That's just, it's wonderful. I just, I love John Hammonds, Aite intelligent, interesting. Um, a lot of voices. I think that's the fascinating thing about doing the book as just the interviews is that I think you, you get such a sense of the voices. It's not woven into a narrative, it's just them talking at you and to you,
Speaker 2 00:18:35 Um, would you like to do that John Hammond reading right now?
Speaker 3 00:18:39 Let me do John Hammond. Yes. And then I, and if you're, if we have time, I certainly love to do Philip as well. Sure. So Tony point, Tony says to John Hammond, Phil specter in an interview in rolling stone, said, they're handling Bobby all wrong. If I was to produce Bobby, I would have a great rock and roll star out of this boy. And Hammond said, what he didn't realize was that there are originals, you know, and you don't mess with originals. You just don't mess with them. Don't think Phil isn't a bright boy. He is, but you don't mess with a guy like Bobby and Bobby was feeling his way. And every instinct Bobby had was right, because you know, the big initial boost to Bob Dylan in this company was Johnny Cash. Tony said, tell me, did cash boost him and said, well, Johnny's a rebel.
Speaker 3 00:19:31 You know, at least he wasn't those days. And Johnny loved me because I brought Pete Seger back into records, into respectable records. Pete's another person that Johnny respects. And also Johnny knows I have a certain amount of integrity. And so whenever everybody was appearing around, you know, Johnny would always come in and I think Johnny probably had as much to do as anyone getting Bob down to record in Nashville. So I just think that's such, that's so fascinating how instrumental Johnny Cash was in Bob Dylan getting to Nashville, you know, you know, how great that music was and, uh, and the sense that John Hammond, who had worked with people like Billy holiday. And, uh, I'm just trying to think of, I mean, great, great jazz people. Um, he'd signed a Franklin really, really early on. He just, he just knew he had a sense for Bob Dylan as an original and you don't mess with originals. He let 'em find their way and do what their, and follow their instincts. So I, I just, I thought that was like a really terrific little piece there. Did you, um, and I guess that gives go ahead. I'm sorry. No,
Speaker 2 00:20:42 Go ahead.
Speaker 3 00:20:43 No, I was just gonna say, and that's, that's kind of the gems of these interviews.
Speaker 2 00:20:48 Well, you know, speaking of the gems of the interview, I'm curious about permissions. Did you ask people, did you let them read what you were gonna put in there? Um, I'm thinking, especially of living musicians like Joan Baez who has not retired, you know, did, did you ask permission or did you just let things fly or how did that work?
Speaker 3 00:21:09 Well, I, the first thing I did before even attempting this, I, I spoke to a copyrights lawyer and an intellectual, um, an intellectual, what is it called again? Intellectual rights, um, properties,
Speaker 3 00:21:22 Intellectual property, lawyer. Right? Uh, thank you. And what the intellectual prop, what the, the lawyer said to me was, uh, first of all, I hold the copyright because I'm the executor of Tony's estate mm-hmm <affirmative>. And secondly, he said, when they all sat down to do an interview with Anthony CDO, knowing it was going into a biography of Bob Dylan, they, they agreed to be interviewed. He said, thus, they, their interview can be used in an interview book. You're not adding, you're not, you know, you're not changing anything. These are their interviews, which they gave permission for, even though it was like 40 or 50 years ago, it still holds. So of course I would check that out. I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't even dream of doing something without making sure it was okay. Great. So in that sense, no, I did not go back to Joan Baez. I did talk to Terry saw who I'm friends with. She was Bob Dylan, the very first manager, uh, and she was married to Dave vank and, um, you know, and she was, she was like happy to sit down and, you know, we had dinner and we, uh, she talked a little bit more, but she said, you know, I don't know that I can add anything at this point, but you, but the she's the only person that I really talked to.
Speaker 1 00:22:40 Cool. So, yeah, continuing on the process train, um, it's clear that Scudo was a remarkably talented interviewer and super knowledgeable about Dylan. I was wondering though, are there any times that you think that the amount of background information that you had might have perhaps led him to ask a lead in question or suggest something just by accident or out of curiosity that would shape the way someone would perceive their memory or perceive their memory?
Speaker 3 00:23:12 Oh, in the interviews themselves? Yeah. Well, there were, there were areas. Okay. So he, he did touch on in the interviews. Um, there, there were rumors and things about young people's, you know, sexual experimentation mm-hmm <affirmative> and when he would raise that issue, um, you know, he said, look, this is not because I'm trying to write some kind of Tory expose any questions I ask are sometimes just to give me a sense of the person and the background. And he said, and honestly, I, I, I totally respect Bob Dylan. There's no way I'm going to write something that's not respectful. And I think that's quite true. Mm-hmm <affirmative> now did he? So he asked hard questions. Did he say things that are, did he write things that were negative? You know, if someone gave him information that was negative about Dylan's behavior? I mean, I think at one point, I think was with Phillip, uh, they had an argument and Philip and, and Dylan threw Phillips out of a cab and never spoke to him again.
Speaker 3 00:24:17 Um, you know, and that's, that's not a nice thing. <laugh> so, um, it's not a totally rosy picture, but I think, you know, but Tony was respectful. He did not go places where that were questionable. And he did do one interview with his Australian actress, um, who, you know, went on and on about her great weekend, binge best thing with, with Bob Dylan and, and Dylan looked at, you know, cuz Tony said, look, I'll let you look at the manuscript. You can correct things factually you cannot edit. You cannot make me take something out. Cause you don't like it. Mm. And, um, Dylan, it wasn't that he objective, he said, this is crazy. He said, this is not true. And he said, you could talk to some other people I'll tell you else to talk to mm-hmm <affirmative> I mean, Tony would do, you know, he didn't just take anything verbatim. He, he, he, he did the background. Um, and that was one of the things like, why did he not talk to Dylan right. In the very beginning? Well, Dylan, wouldn't talk to him, number one. But, but I think he also felt much better to talk to everybody around him who would talk to him and then you go to the subject. Mm. Um, again, it's good. Good investigative journalism.
Speaker 1 00:25:35 Absolutely. So,
Speaker 3 00:25:37 Yeah, so I think I, I don't, you know, I think he, he did go in certain, uh, areas in certain places. And if he felt that it was not moving the story along or not integral to the story, then why would you put it in? So
Speaker 1 00:25:53 That makes sense. And it made such a grip in collection overall that it, it seems like that instinct was followed quite well.
Speaker 3 00:26:00 Hmm. Yes. Yes. I think so, too. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:26:03 So we are, we are community radio. So we have a few quick messages from our partners here, and then we'll get right back to this interview. If you joined us partway, we are here with Stephanie Trudo, um, the editor of the Dylan tapes, friends, players, and lovers talking early, Bob Dylan, we'll be right back. So stay tuned.
Speaker 2 00:26:28 And we're back. Uh, we are speaking with Stephanie Trudeau, editor of the Dylan tapes, friends, players, and lovers talking early, Bob Dylan. Uh, welcome back again. Uh, Stephanie we're we're here now. And I have a question for you. It's interesting because okay. I'm in my sixties and, uh, Annie's in her twenties and I'm wondering, you know, how this book, I know what it means to me because, uh, I grew up with it. You know, I grew up with Bob Dylan thinking he was God. And, and he was, uh, the king of folk music and Joan Baez was the queen of folk music and all that. And I'm wondering what you want this book to say to people like me. And then also to say to people like Annie who are younger and who are maybe approaching Dylan, not necessarily for the first time, but in a different way.
Speaker 3 00:27:22 Right. Um, obviously, well, you know, I've gone to a few concerts in the, in the past. Uh, I would say as I was working on the book, I have a friend who who's in her mid seventies and is an avid avid Bob Dylan fan. I mean, huge. And so she was dragging me to concerts in Providence, Rhode Island, and a couple of concerts in New York city. And the, a fantastic thing is, of course, there's all the, you know, the 60, 70 year olds who are grooving along because that's, you know, we grew up with Bob Dylan and then there's people in their forties who are kind of like, oh, you know, this is kind of cool. And then I was shocked how many 20 year olds were down right up in the front at the stage, booing like crazy and dancing to Bob Dylan's music. So it, I thought, okay, so there, here's this crazy cross section.
Speaker 3 00:28:12 Why, what is this all about? I think he speaks to 20 year olds or 30 year olds as vividly as he spoke to us when we were in our twenties and thirties. It's his message, his poetry, his words. Um, they're not really dated. They're pretty universal. I think that's a great reason why he is in Nobel Laureate in literature. You know, this is, there is something incredibly universal about the bar, um, who is speaking to us and speaking from his feelings, his pain, his soul, if it's honest, you can't help but hook into it. So I don't, I don't think that it matters if you're 20 or if you're 70, you can still come to Bob Dylan and, and get something emotional and intellectual from him.
Speaker 2 00:29:04 Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:29:05 I don't think so. What is, oh, go ahead. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 00:29:08 I don't think I wasn't
Speaker 3 00:29:09 Sure. I answered your question.
Speaker 1 00:29:10 Oh, it's okay. Um, just to, just to pipe in for myself here, I grew up listening to a lot of Bob Dylan. So I'm not a Bob Dylan Newby, but it's just a different cultural context than say, Liz coming up with this music while it was all first coming out. I definitely know mm-hmm, <affirmative> a lot of peers who are my age in their twenties, who are also really familiar with Dylan, um, and whose Dylan's music means things to them. So I would definitely agree with you that it's, um, it, the kind of, of the messages and the place in life can resonate with people, even if they weren't there during the initial thing. Mm-hmm, <affirmative> just because of the quality of the, of the storytelling, I guess I would say.
Speaker 3 00:29:51 And I think that's, that's the key, the storytelling, he is, he has been a fabulous storyteller, right from the very beginning. And he, I think he could, he's still relevant because he keeps changing. He see, he keeps finding something new to talk about. Um, even if he does the standards from the forties, you know, which he's done, he still brings something incredibly new and different to it as well. Um, again, I know as a performer, I am hooked when somebody, when I, when I get the emotional message, um, or I, I get that there is something really integral coming from this person. So I think that must be the thing that speaking to you as well as, as, as a 20 year old and speaks to Liz and speaks to me as a 73 year old. Um, so I want, I do wanna say, you know, Tony was, of course he was 17 years older than me.
Speaker 3 00:30:49 So when he was doing this book, he was already in his like mid to late thirties. One of the things that I thought, and I say that in, in the forward, I was so amazed how much, how well he captured the whole feeling of that time, of that period of what we were all feeling and thinking and saying, and, you know, and using it and, and, and captured Bob Dylan. I just thought that was like amazing that he came from where he came from and, and spoke directly to me as someone who grew up in it. So, so I hope that, uh, that this book does the same thing for you.
Speaker 2 00:31:28 His questions are so right on. I mean, they're right to the point and they dig right in. And yet, somehow he doesn't, he's not hurting people with his questions, you know, he's not, I mean, he gets a little pointed sometimes, you know, he, he, when he's talking to Susie, uh, uh, you know, he, he's trying to get her to say, you know, what, uh, what she's really feeling, and she's kind of holding back, you know, and he does push a little bit, but, but he seems to really know how to interview people. Would you, would you feel that's true too?
Speaker 3 00:32:03 I think he knew how to listen, which is amazing. And that's, and that's not, that's a big gift. It's not easy to just listen. I think he had a, he even said at one point when someone said to him, oh, I think I'm rambling. And Tony said, that's okay. Some of the best stuff comes, just letting somebody ramble. So again, he, it, like he made room for people to go where they were gonna go. The thing about Susie, you know, we later became friends and he, we certainly became very good friends with Susie and her husband. And so, and, and she, at one point said, Tony, I'm just so sorry about that interview. She said, I just still felt so much pain about Bobby. She said, I couldn't talk. I couldn't say anything about him. I just couldn't do it. Couldn't go there. Um, cause my editor said, I think we should just cut this interview. And I said, no, no. I think it's good to show even when it doesn't quite work. Um, it's not that he failed. It's just that sometimes you, you know, you can be dogged and maybe it just doesn't quite happen. I, I felt that was still important to let that unfold and let people see that as well. Um,
Speaker 2 00:33:13 And on the other hand, Joan BA's interview was just full and rich and he asked all the right questions to her as well. Not that he didn't with Susie, but you know, he was just, I love that interview. It just really moved me a lot. Of course I'm a big Joan baes fan too. So, you know,
Speaker 3 00:33:28 Mm-hmm <affirmative> and she, it was a great interview and, and, and he pretty much, um, put, he didn't do very much editing, uh, the chapter with, he did almost a chapter of Joan Baez visions of Joanna. And I, you know, I kind of did the same thing. Um, yes, it was this terrific interview. Um, I don't think you know, that she would ever object to me using it. I don't think she would because she, she is fantastic in the interview. There's, she's very honest, she's warm. Um, you know, you can empathize with her as a woman. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, you know, woman to woman she's, she's amazing. I think she's amazing. Um, and I do have, I, I was gonna read a little bit from Joan, if you, if you want me to,
Speaker 2 00:34:09 Oh, that would be great.
Speaker 3 00:34:11 Okay. So I just basically the very beginning, you said, so your impression at that time, and Joan said he knocked me out completely. As I remember him, it seems that he was about five feet tall. He seemed tiny, just tiny and that goofy little hat on. And he tried to put the make on my sister. He really liked her. I think she was sitting nearby. It was either that night or the next, I think I went back a couple of times to hear him. I can't remember. It's all kind of fuzzy. And he was just astounding. I was knocked out. It was very curious. It was, I was with this boy I'd been with for about two years and oh, this terrifically jealous type. I had to sit there and drum my fingers on the table, pretend I was half listening to Dylan and I was totally absorbed.
Speaker 3 00:34:59 And I thought, God, you know, and his style and his eyes, just his whole mystical, whatever it was. I just thought about him for days. I was amazed. I was happy. You know, he really made me happy that there was somebody, you know, with that kind of talent. I mean, I love genius. I'm really hooked on genius. Anytime it happens along, I really get excited. Tony said, your first meeting with him, did, did you meet him that night? He came over that night. Somebody said, you've gotta meet Joan or something. And he came over and there wasn't anything I could say, you know, know, I, I said far out or beautiful or something and Bobby mumbled something, I don't know what he said, something equally dumb. And that was all. I just, I, I just love that she is so totally a woman. I mean, it's, she really goes to the core of like being knocked out totally in love. You can feel this sexual energy. I mean, everything it's, it's charming, how much she opens up about what she was feeling and how it felt. Yeah. I love that. That interview.
Speaker 2 00:36:09 Yes, it was wonderful.
Speaker 3 00:36:12 Um, I wanted to, to read a little something, uh, the blurb actually on the book, it goes back to this whole thing about journalism. Um, Hayward Gould is, is an old friend. He, um, he started out as a journalist at the New York process. Tony did, he was actually mentored by Tony. He then went on to write novels and he wrote cocktail and he went on to, uh, write screenplays and direct. And, um, so I was so thrilled that he gave me this blurb to use. And he said, Tony STO was my teacher. As a young reporter. I was awed by his ability to find new angles. Others had missed to enlighten and move within the confines of the newspaper style. Later, I saw how he applied obsessive concern with accuracy, meticulous research and the revelatory probings of a brief interview to fashion. What remains the definitive biography. And Dylan's favorite anyone interested in journalism should read the book and the tapes together to get an insight into the methods of a master? Um, I, I wanted to, because we, we were talking a little bit about journalism and you asked, uh, how he's, you know, about his questions about his probing. I think Hayward gold really summed it up in that, that little paragraph, um, about what you do that, you know, you can take a short interview and you, you probe and you really go for the accuracy. Um, that's, that was Tony's gift
Speaker 1 00:37:48 A through line in the book that I found interesting was the different interviewee weighing in on whether they think Dylan is politically and or musically authentic. And what that means, like for example, Ram and Jack Elliot was really convinced that Dylan was just so derivative and blah, blah, blah, but other people were like, oh, he brought this liveliness and this, um, this storytelling, this political conviction that was so fully authentic. Um, could you talk a little bit about, um, kind of how derivative ness and authenticity play into the Bob Dylan mythos as a whole?
Speaker 3 00:38:27 Hmm. Um, well, it's a very interesting thing because, you know, he started out as most, uh, singers do, uh, you know, singing other people's songs mm-hmm <affirmative> and then he started writing. Um, and I think because he was so turned on by Woody Guthrie and Woody gut, cause you know, when he was a kid, he was doing little Richard and, you know, that's, that's the kind of music that he was singing and wanted to sing. But then when he discovered Woody Guthrie, he went into this whole other direction. Now was he derivative? Well, so was rambling Jack Elliot, Elliot. I mean, everybody says that he was just there really that's that's like the, what is that? The pot calling the kettle or the kettle calling the pot or something sort of funny for, for Jack Elliot to say that, um, of course he, you know, he was using influences were the Beatles using influences of black blues and, and rock and roll.
Speaker 3 00:39:22 Of course mm-hmm <affirmative>, I mean, everybody was using the, the best that they, they could find and, and you know, what they fell in love with, and that was their way to try to be more authentic and not be so sort of, you know, itsy bitsy, yellow PKA dot bikini or something. Um, I, so I think that's kind of unfair and what he did do with all of that is he brought it to a whole other level. Now, you know, one of the things he, in, in a sort of a nasty moment with Phil Oaks, he said about Phil Oaks as song, you know, he said, you're a journalist, I'm a songwriter. And it's true because, um, Phillips would write something. And then, uh, Bob Dylan wrote masters of war. I mean, my God, there's, there's no comparison. And when you look at the songs in that, in that way, and you look at that writing, and then when he kind of like went into the very stream of consciousness of, you know, highway 64 and, and on, you know, it's just, it's kind of amazing what he was doing with language really.
Speaker 3 00:40:27 And nobody else was doing anything quite that profound with language. Funny, funny thing, of course then, and Phillips talks about, they all talk about like, they thought he was gonna be the next Elvis president <laugh> this was the thing that, you know, who was gonna be the next Elvis Presley. Uh, I would say that Bob Dylan went way beyond the next Elvis Presley, you know, so, um, you know, and he did in the talk of, did he wanna be a rock and roll star? They all wanted to be a rock and roll star. Uh, but then like, uh, bill Oak said that he was writing these like 15 minute songs. You can't become a rock and roll star with that kind of music, which was true. So I think Dylan had a lot of integrity and was very true to himself. Um, so I think that's a little unfair of rambling Jack Elliot. <laugh> that, that would be my last word on that. Thank
Speaker 2 00:41:21 You. See, I have two questions and we're, we're getting close to wrapping up here. Okay. My two questions are, uh, one is how did Tony feel about his interviews? And the second question is maybe a little emotionally, uh, charged, but I'm wondering what it felt like to you to be listening to these interviews after he had passed and be, be, um, listening to the voice of someone that you love very much. Who's not there anymore and, and working with his life's work. So speak.
Speaker 3 00:41:52 Um, what was your first question? And I will definitely talk to you about the second one. How
Speaker 2 00:41:56 Did Tony feel about the interviews
Speaker 3 00:41:59 About all these different interviews?
Speaker 2 00:42:01 Yeah. Was he happy with
Speaker 3 00:42:02 Them? Um, oh, I think so. I think so. And I think even in terms of Bob Dylan, I think he, he was thrilled that he got to sit down and really talk, Bob Dylan mm-hmm <affirmative>, um, had some phone conversations and, but then actually did sit in his studio and talk to him and he, I, I think, yeah, I, and I think he certainly loved interviewing Joan Baez and, um, no, I think Tony was very, very happy with, with the interviews. Um, and I, and I think he know, he felt that this was his, his masterpiece. This is, you know, a really solid book for him. How did I feel listening to his voice the first time I, I started listening to the tapes, it was very unnerving and yes, I burst into tears and I even called our son and I said, this is like really difficult.
Speaker 3 00:42:46 This is crazy. Um, and then I finally reached the point where I would actually kind of like try to channel him and I would even say things like, what do you mean here? How am I gonna figure this out? <laugh> and, um, so I, it was, it was a way to have a conversation with him again, which was gift really kind of a gift. Um, cuz I don't think we often get that after someone has passed away and left our lives. Um, so it was very nice to have him back in my life for another, you know, three or four years. Um, and he's still kind of in my life for sure. Yeah. Emotional, but, but in a very good way. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:43:27 There's a place in the collection where you include a transcribed interview of your own, where you're asking the questions that appeared to supplement, um, your late husband's work with that same subject. How did you choose that particular era area to do additional questioning? And is there anywhere else you did additional questioning and didn't include it?
Speaker 3 00:43:49 No, that was the only place. And I think that, I think you're talking about Terry saw. Yep. Um, and I, yeah, I did Terry saw, I mean, I didn't, I certainly didn't have to, but we're good friends and it presented itself. So I thought it's, it would be foolish not to. Now I could have, of course tried to call, you know, tried to get in touch with Joan Baez. I didn't really feel that there was more, I needed to add to the Joan Baez interview and I didn't really even need to add the Terry haw, but it was great to, um, to talk a little bit with her and get her to clarify a few things, which she did. Um, I did try to reach actually I did try to reach rambling, Jack Elliot. I managed to contact his manager. I was gonna fly out to San Francisco, see him perform cause he is still performing in his eighties.
Speaker 3 00:44:39 Um, and they said, oh no, he doesn't do interviews unless you pay him $500. And I thought, I don't know. <laugh> really. And I had a feeling of Tony would roll in his grave if I did that. So <laugh> um, I bet that one go. But um, those, you know, so that was sort of my decision making process about who to go back and talk to. Um, obviously if, if Susie was still alive, I would've definitely tried to talk to Susie and I think she probably would've added something at this point, but mm-hmm <affirmative> she is not with us so
Speaker 1 00:45:15 Well thank you.
Speaker 2 00:45:16 Yeah. Well we're about out of time. This has been a wonderful interview. Stephanie I've really, we both have really enjoyed, uh, speaking with you. I'm wondering if you have any other irons in the fire or if this is kind of your life's work?
Speaker 3 00:45:32 Oh no, this is not my life's work. I am a, I I'm a singer performer. Uh, I, um, have a cabaret show that I perform. It's about a Mexican singer. I enact her life in English. I sing all the songs in Spanish, uh, and it's it sort of weaves part of like my background. My mother was Puerto Rican, so I grew up with the Spanish language. Um, I've been performing it. Uh it's, it's one of this reward here in New York. I'm actually performing August 5th, sixth and seventh at the Edinboro fringe festival in Edinboro Scotland. I'm doing my show. I've done a short movie that is going to be appearing at, uh, the Fort Lauderdale international film festival. So I have a whole other thing going. Yes. And, and I would actually like to write a biography of this woman and I'm hoping that I can channel some of my husband's, um, smarts and skills and, and talent and help me along with that. But, uh, that would be my, my next big writing project after this one. And, and I, that might be it <laugh> but, but definitely performance. Um, yes, I'm a singer and an actress and um, and this is like a very important show for me. It's it's my passion.
Speaker 1 00:46:54 Well, we've been speaking with a true multi hyphenate today.
Speaker 3 00:46:58 <laugh> yes, <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:47:00 Thank you so much. This has been very fun, Stephanie. Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 3 00:47:05 Oh, you're very welcome. I hope you're enjoying the book and I hope people will want to read it and wanna buy it and read it because it's a great book.
Speaker 2 00:47:12 It is great
Speaker 1 00:47:13 Story. Yeah, it's been excellent. Thank you so much. Take care.
Speaker 3 00:47:16 You too. Bye-bye bye.
Speaker 2 00:48:17 Tonight on, right on radio, we have been speaking with Stephanie Trudo editor of the Dylan tapes, friends, players, and lovers talking early, Bob Dylan. We'd like to thank her. Uh, and she, uh, wrote, uh, wrote this or edited this, uh, from the works and interviews with 36 hours of interview tapes done by her coworker and partner Anthony Scudo, uh, and interviews with friends and colleagues of Dylan. Stephanie has pulled together and edited these interviews into a fascinating and, uh, and uh, provocative collection, an oral history. So that's what we've been listening to tonight on, right on radio.
