Speaker 0 00:00:01 Okay, so this is radio, right? And you can come on video. I'm not video. Well, I understand it's a zoom call. So you're, you're, you're live on radio. Just with audio. I can see you with your, what is that TC right on where I'm in Minneapolis, red Sox. You don't want to face the twins this year in the playoffs face the red Sox. <inaudible> you can say that <inaudible> are you going to come on video and give me a <inaudible> what do you want me to go? <inaudible>
Speaker 1 00:02:26 You are listening to right on radio on KFH 90.3 FM and streaming live on the web at <inaudible> dot org. I'm Annie. Tonight on, right on radio. David FEDEC does a special double feature interviewing two authors back to back. First, he talks to Paul star Obon author of a most wicked conspiracy. The last great swindle of the gilded age, a tale about greed, power and politics during the gnome gold rush in Alaska at the turn of the 20th century, stir Obon is the author of many books, including madness rules. The hour Charleston, 1860, the mania for war. He has published extensively, including in the Atlantic, the wall street journal, the new Republic and the Washington post among others. Then David interviews, Richard Terrell author of what falls away has always poems and conversations published by Holy cow, press and Duluth. Terrell is the author of five previous books, including the Minnesota book award winning poetry collection. Coming late to Rachmaninoff. Terrell is the recipient of numerous fellowships and he makes his home in Minneapolis, all of this and more so stay tuned to write on radio.
Speaker 2 00:03:41 Annie are we ago. Yeah. A year ago. Thank you. Welcome Paul. Paul, did we pronounce your last name correctly? There have been close to Mary. Welcome. So glad to have you here tonight on this history making night and when I have two guests in a row. Very exciting. Um, yeah, isn't that something? So Paul, it's a fascinating book. I loved it for a lot of reasons and I'll explain as we go along, but, um, the name of the book is the most wicked conspiracy, the last degrade swindle of the gilded age. Um, I think before we talk in particular about the book, we should set our listeners up for, um, what you've done, the story you've told broadly speaking. Um, how about that, uh, tell us about the gold rush, this particular one in Nome, uh, the broad parameters, and then we'll dive into, um, more of the details.
Speaker 2 00:04:33 Sure. Well, we're talking now about the end of the 19th century in 1898. Uh, gold is discovered, uh, in, uh, what is later called Nome Alaska right off of the bearing, uh, C, which is kind of important because it meant that people could get there much easier than get to other places. We would go to remember the Klondike. It was a few years before it was, I mean, people literally die trying to make it to, uh, conduct. Yeah, this is different. And the richest gold vein was found at a place called Annabelle Creek. And it turned out that the original finders were aliens. In other words, not at that point American citizens. And that later became very controversial, but in any case, as word got out a big gold rush. So the original finding 1898, 80 99, you see a lot of people trickle in and then really it's the year 1900, which is at the heart of my tail.
Speaker 2 00:05:38 Uh, at one point you had 20,000 people working the beach and no, it was just amazing. And there was literally gold, you know, in the sands and these groovy colored sands. And then nobody had ever heard of that before they called it a star dust. You know what I mean? This is, this is crazy. So people came, you know, they, they went over the rails from, you know, from the st Paul, they could go by the great Northern Jane J Hillsville road. They got to Seattle, they got on one of these ferries, you know, overloaded people are, you know, you know, puking the entire way, eating horrible food and so forth. But then finally for a couple of weeks, they reach Alaska and they're on the golden sands. Uh, so as you can imagine, lots of trickster. So, you know, some people willing to roll up their sleeves and get the gold and the honest way of take their clients, others, you know, lawyers and all kinds of people connive basically to, uh, you know, to cheat the original finders out of the gold.
Speaker 2 00:06:39 And that's really where my story, uh, focuses on. That's the most way conspiracy this right? To kinda, you know, swindle, uh, people out of their, out of their cool, that's a great setup. It's just so amazing to think about. And some of the patrons that you have in the book are just sort of mind boggling to think about, but I get it, um, instant wealth, uh, gold line on the beach. It's it seems, it sounds hard to resist. And in many respects book, your paws kind of, uh, your books, um, pardon me, a bit of a legal thriller. And so before we, again, one more time, one more preface question. Before you step into the story proper, this is a time before Alaska's a state, it feels like a free for all, in terms of any sort of legal system, we use the term frontier law.
Speaker 2 00:07:27 What should we know about the state of the state at that time and how something like we were going to talk about could even happen? Yeah. I mean, almost no law really in Alaska at that time, it was a territory. So yes, it's the property of the federal government. You remember, you know, nobody really cared about Alaska so much until they found gold. I mean, you know, we, I saved purchasing from Russia, Russia after the civil war and you know, it kind of lay there as a big icebox. People thought that we've got a horrible deal. Then we discovered gold. So, you know, mining camps have their own laws, you know, uh, both, both the real law mining communities can make law and sort of, you know, the law is, it actually operates. So that jumpers, for example, a guy, he tries to take a claim from somebody else.
Speaker 2 00:08:14 You know, they might be a jury of his peers if they think that he's really jumped it, uh, they could do everything into including, you know, string him up. I mean, that's that kind of stuff. And, or, you know, beat him up more in a mock everyone has guns. I mean, it's essentially a, an anarchic type situation. And I think the important point here is that Congress is aware of this and wants to bring some legal order to Alaska once the gold rush begins. And so doing provides for a judge, a federal district judge to be appointed, to oversee what is essentially the gold district and to oversee disputed claims of which they're a man, because all, you can't have this stuff, you know, mining camp justice, these need to be brought through the courts. In some cases, you know, maybe the jumper wasn't really a jumper. He really had a, you know, honest claim. But, um, you know, I don't know how far you want me to go with it, but basically we'll, you know, who is introduced is, is sort of our main character Republican boss. And he becomes kind of the arch, you know, conniver to try to take advantage of this situation.
Speaker 3 00:09:22 Perfect, perfect. Same way, exactly where I want to go next. Let's talk about Alexander Mackenzie and, and why I love this story even more for just what it is a great insight into a fascinating period of American history, but I'm from Bismark, North Dakota. Uh, there's a town just outside of his wreck named Mackenzie, and we have a McKenzie hotel and it's just its own name. And I did not realize the man was such a shyster. And I think we can say shyster on the radio. Uh, but boy, it was really fun to read this and get the local history. So how does a guy, uh, invalid Zander McKinsey, uh, from the main streets of Bismark, North Dakota yeah. Fall into this position. It's amazing.
Speaker 2 00:10:03 Yeah. Well, big Alex is, um, you know, a former frontier sheriff from Bismark. I spent some time in Bismark research. Nice story. So, you know, he's very comfortable places like Alaska because, you know, he, he has, he knows how to bring, you know, certain rough justice to the situation, but he rises way beyond that. By the time we meet him really in 1900, he's beyond being, you know, a sheriff he's the Republican party boss at a time when the bosses in many ways really run the political system in America. Uh, this is before the people elected senators, us senators. So state legislatures made that choice. A political boss could essentially control blocks of votes in the legislature's. So Alexander McKenzie like as one of these guys, so he got it in his head that he could fix things in the Congress. Uh, initially he wanted to get a law passed that would retroactively and in effect, put these disputed claims and Alaska Indian scans that fail.
Speaker 2 00:11:08 I mean, people were on to him, but he did get his judge, his sort of pocket judge, this kind of alcohol, like, uh, you know, never had done particularly anything. Well in life, judge Arthur Noyes appointed, you know, McKinley, the president signed off on it, but Senate and bang, you know, he had his judge and the whole passel of them, you know, went to a normal Alaska. And the whole idea was Kenzie was going to get him appointed, get himself appointed receiver as a kind of custodian of these assets and fix it so that the gold would flow into his hands. That's. That was the, that was the, uh, the caper.
Speaker 3 00:11:51 Yeah, really stunning. Amanda, you know, we think corruption today and, um, you know, every, you know, I think, boy, it just can't be worse than it is today. My goodness, uh, layer upon here of corruption there. And we should remind her this news too, if, uh, right Paul, that, uh, this was a time when state legislatures, uh, appointed senators. If you had your hands in the state legislature, you could get your hands into a Senator or on his back and shoulders. And, um, you can, um, yes, much is that a peer influence, right? Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:12:20 The Senator is a really old their, their careers, you know, their, their time in office, their office, two bosses like Mackenzie, uh, and you know, the situation what's Recode is actually interesting. I don't know if, you know, for Bismarck, I mean, there was an anti McKenzie faction. You kind of want to get into it. Uh, and big Alex worked hand in glove with, uh, JJ Hill, the railroad Baron, actually big Alex as they called them where Alexander the great of the North.
Speaker 3 00:12:51 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:12:52 It worked out of the merchants hotel in st. Paul. I don't know if you know the merchants. I couldn't, you know, I looked forward on the map when I was in st. Paul. It's, it's a different building now. You can't really get the feeling for that, but I know exactly what it is. Yeah. It was a place where, you know, traveling salesmen card sharks, you know, all kinds of people hung out and he had a room. They called the throne room and legislators like Bismarck would make their pilgrimage to see Alex to ask him for a favor or something. He would hand out railroad passes. I mean, he had all kinds of, you know, inducements, uh, to the legislature. So some people went entirely with him, uh, and got, you know, what they could get. Others really were bitterly opposed to him, but he had enough sway, you know, basically, uh, to at least get his foot, uh, in Alaska and try to do, you know, this, this, uh, the swindle,
Speaker 3 00:13:48 Right. Uh, I want to remind our readers. We are, believe it or not almost halfway through our conversation. I know it's amazing. Uh, we need another hour Annie for our show. Um, it was Paul starobin the author conspiracy, the last great swindle of the gilded age. Fascinating look at a, a wild time in American history. Um, so big Alex, wasn't a terribly bright guy, right? In terms of book learning. Um,
Speaker 2 00:14:16 Yeah, no, no, no, no. I would say in terms of book learning, that's in fact he was semi-literate when it came to writing like a business letter. I mean, I went into the Bismarck and the library. I mean, it's, you know, the misspelled, I mean, he, you know, he spelled like, instead of
Speaker 3 00:14:29 Where, you know, w H E R E w E R E or something,
Speaker 2 00:14:35 But, but, but, but Hey, no, no, no. This guy is incredibly Shrew and he has a good psychological weed on people. He knows how to manipulate them. Uh, also he had a lot of, um, female admirers. So he, he had an, you know, he had a way, uh, he knew how to work a room. He wasn't the guy who was going to make a speech, but he could read the room. So, uh, yeah, definitely not an intellectual, no evidence. He ever read a book in his entire life, but, but you know, he, he operated on the ground and he was also to give him his due fearless, you know, once, once the miners got onto him in Alaska, his wife was in danger and he walked into a crowd, a mob he could have easily have been killed and he had no fear, you know, as a former sheriff, he was a big guy.
Speaker 2 00:15:29 I really physically imposing. So, you know, you got to kind of give him that, uh, at least, and I'll give you this, Paul, uh, those scenes that you described were cinematic and very dramatic with him, almost one man, against a mob. Yeah. If he were almost any man by himself, but the man, he was, it seems like she was a sure gunner and you'd have been strung up. Like binders are tough, tough people, tough guys, not all guys, mostly guys. And, you know, uh, they could fight with their hands. They had guns. I mean, they weren't gonna give up, you know, their goal easily. And what's also interesting is they became politically organized. You know, this was the era of populism, the sort of the common man, the common worker was asserting his rights against these, you know, barons with the golden age. Uh, and people like JJ Hill, the railroad Baron.
Speaker 2 00:16:25 So McKenzie was also seen in those terms. He was, you know, Alaska was a place with a common guy, sweating it out, you know, in some factories, some office he could go to Alaska and, you know, every man is a King, right. I mean, he could have his goal, he could buy his beer with his goal. He could go home. Uh, there were a lot of, uh, ladies of the evening there spend an evening and, and, and that way they were casinos and Wyatt earth was up there. So, you know, yeah. You can kind of have, it was an adventure, you know, it wasn't just a, it was the people, they love that kind of thing. Right, California, right. The 49, or is all the people who went there. It was exciting. Yeah. I have to say that was a fascinating part of the book.
Speaker 2 00:17:13 And his story was how a town, a little economy sprung up so quickly, uh, and, uh, yeah. Sort of plays the right role. Um, it's just an amazing story. I want to jump to president McKinley. You mentioned earlier the idea, the fact that this goes all the way up to the white house, you know, maybe it shouldn't surprise me or shouldn't surprise me given our discussion about corruption everywhere. Not that McKinley was corrupt in this regard, but, um, it is fascinating that again, big Alex from Bismarck, uh, has some sort of, uh, reach out connection to the president. So, um, this could take awhile.
Speaker 3 00:17:50 You can go wherever you want with this, but tell us about the connection to president McKinley, please.
Speaker 2 00:17:53 Yeah. Well, McKinley needed people like big Alex because, you know, in a national election, you need people who can help you. Um, you know, when the States and the electoral college system, so big Alex and JJ Hill, you know, combined, they help McKinley win in 80 96. You know what I mean? One North Dakota, any one Minnesota. So, you know, in that sense, McKinley was a very traditional politician, even in Ohio governor, he's in the white house. So naturally he's going to reward the people who helped him with the question of this judge, which is really kind of critical to Kelly's role. Uh, you know, it's really difficult to say, you know what? He, McKinley fought, you know, McKinley never wrote anything down on paper. Each disclose very little unlike the guy who succeeded Teddy Roosevelt who ran everything, right? This is not McKinley's way. He's got a cigar in his mouth and there's not a lot of, of leaking that goes on, but I have to, I mean, why would big Alex or North Dakota launch a judge, you know, to go to Alaska, they help him out.
Speaker 2 00:18:55 I mean, you know, Alaska had gold. I don't, you know, McKinley had to had to realize it was something going on there. She then later, you know, the jump ahead, but you know, big Alex, he does get nailed. It gets caught. Uh, the judges in San Francisco who oversee the corrupt judge in Alaska, they punished Mackenzie, but they put him in jail for contempt court because he's defied their words, you know, stop looting the gold and McKinley steps in, and really on a pretext canceling Kenzie suffering from bad health, bad heart. He commutes Mackenzie's sentence. He gets them out of jail. And of course the big Alex lives for decades afterwards. I need that. That was, that was the convenient fiction, you know, to show mercy on the, you know, the alien, the ailing prisoner. So McKinley is sort of up to it and his ear to this ears. But, you know, he's thinking about his own reelection in 1900 a Chino. And then of course he gets assassinated. It's terrible in Buffalo after all that. But, um, you know, he was a part of the system. I think you have to take the lead as being part of this system, if not personally, you know, corrupt, I don't think he was a particularly wealthy man for example.
Speaker 3 00:20:13 Right, right, right. And this was a big story at the time too. Um, what was going on, people were really tracking this whole thing with McKinsey and the big swindle and, uh, uh, McKinley's taking the big train ride out West. Um, yeah.
Speaker 2 00:20:27 Yeah. Well, you can imagine because of the goal, then everybody was so interested in it that, uh, the idea that, you know, one guy was basically trying to rip off, you know, the miners was, was a great story. And then the fact that he had all these political connections, you know, to Washington, to top people in Washington that made it even jucier and then you, somebody is now you had a kind of a partisan press. So, you know, the populists, the people who were, you know, not identify with the Republican party, they had a natural interest in promoting it as well. So yeah, it became a big, a big scandal. San Francisco had a very, uh, real Reiki press at that time, Mark Twain, you know, came out of their writing. Yeah. Yeah. So, so they, they kinda, uh, they, they fan those flames and became something of a national scandal. And Mackenzie became, I call it the last great swindle because he kind of became a symbol of the gilded age that was, you know, coming to an end, but still, you know, uh, just, just, you know, just how corrupt things could be and how difficult it was just for the ordinary guy in this case, the ordinary minor to get ahead. Yeah. And also you have
Speaker 3 00:21:38 He Roosevelt coming in and, you know, at least nominally cleaning things up a little bit in this regard.
Speaker 2 00:21:43 Yeah. I got rid of the judge, you know, that was long overdue, but he didn't get rid of big Alex because Alex was still the Republican national committee man from North Dakota. I mean, Teddy also wanted to get elected the office. So, and he did, of course. So he found big Alex. I mean, a guy like big Alex is, you know, is useful to people. That's right. Paul, how did you stumble on this story? So I was really interested in something to do with gold because I just thought that would be interesting, fun, kind of, you know, so much adventure attached to that. And I thought initially of California, but I quickly discovered, I mean the 49 years that story has been done. So, so well, and, uh, you know, so, you know, it's just one of those things, you know, Alaska. Okay. You know, I didn't know a lot about I'm from Massachusetts, never been to Alaska. And sometimes, you know, that things clicked a bit, I guess when I came across the, uh, the big Alex thread. And so, um, you know, it kind of just sucks you in, I guess, as much as anything else.
Speaker 3 00:22:52 Right, right, right. I was impressed. I've done some writing over my career nonfiction stuff, but, but you're, you're, I don't know if you have any background in legal studies or whatnot, but boy, you had a lot to navigate there in terms of research and put a, pulling the story together.
Speaker 2 00:23:08 Yeah. Thank you. Yes. It's a challenge, you know, initially I thought it would be helpful, um, that I have a background in, in business journalism. I started out that way at a very small newspaper in Massachusetts, the most sun I covered business. And then for four years I was the, uh, Bureau chief for business week in Moscow. That was the yeah. The early that was really, yeah. There was a certain kind of business there as well. Yeah. So, so, you know, I knew that that that could be if somehow the legal stuff though. Yeah. You know, was more just
Speaker 3 00:23:46 Things I had to learn on my, on my own. And you know, the challenge of that kind of writing is just knowing what you have to say, but, you know, but all the, all the sort of, you know, trails that you really don't need to go down. Right, right, right. They keep it moving, you know, and not to get trapped by all that. So you're, you're kind of a translator, you know, you read up on the log of legal cases and you make you try to make it, uh, you know, uh, readable and lively, you know, for, for the people who are gonna pick up the book. Yeah. Fascinating. Uh, I, I enjoyed the heck out of it. We have been talking with, I'm getting get one more question. How do you, Paul <inaudible> author of the most wicked conspiracy, the last great swindle of the gilded age, take a look at it.
Speaker 3 00:24:34 And my friends out there and a pause and take a look at your other books. The one on, uh, the onset of the civil war. It strikes me as particularly fascinating. Uh, but with all looking back, let's look forward. What are you working on now? Well, I'm thinking about, you know, I, the one thing I would like to do, I haven't committed to it yet is something to do with the kind of founding years of the American Republic, because I feel right now, we're in this, this time. I mean, it relates to Trump, but it's not just Trump where, you know, we're looking at sort of building, you know, the institutions of the country, you know, what's in the constitution. I mean all that kind of stuff. And, um, so I'm doing a lot of reading about that, uh, period, if I can find a good story there, then that would be, that would be fun.
Speaker 3 00:25:24 That would be fun for me. Well, that sounds fantastic. I have a good friend who, um, likes to read history, but he loves these kinds of books. Uh, these sort of special, almost sidebar stories at the time that were huge about are mostly forgotten if you will. Um, uh, great fun and a lot of insight. So, uh, once again, uh, ladies and gentlemen of, uh, right on radio world, that was Paul sterile, then author of the most wicked conspiracy, the last great swindle of the gilded age, Paul, it's been a real treat speaking with you. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Great fun. We hope to have you back sometime with your new book. Wonderful. Thank you. And back to you, Annie and the studio
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Speaker 1 00:27:27 You are listening to KFA 90.3 FM, Minneapolis and streaming live on the web at <inaudible> dot org. I'm Annie. And this is your what's happening calendar of literary events brought to you by the rain tax Taksim review of books. This Wednesday, August 25th, from one to 2:00 PM. The American Swedish Institute presents new price discussing his children's book of Ash and Elm a history of the Vikings on Wednesday, August 26th, um, six 30 to 7:30 PM subtext books and John Palmer present a virtual event for his new memoir master of deception on Wednesday, August 26th, uh, seven to 8:00 PM, uh, books and bars discusses educated by Tara Westover. Um, I really, I really enjoyed that one. So even if you can't make it to the books and bars tomorrow, uh, can't recommend the book enough, uh, Wednesday, August 26th, um, from seven to eight, that's really when things are happening, uh, tomorrow evening on the wonderful next chapter booksellers and st. Paul presents a virtual event with Caroline Hallbrook for her book of essays. Tell me your names. And I will testify Thursday, August 27th from seven to 8:00 PM majors and Quinn and Martin Shaw present a digital event for cinder biter Celtic poems Saturday, August 29th, 2020, um, is independent bookstore day check the websites of your favorite independent bookstores for more information. Um, and now we'll be turning live on the air, uh, to another interview, um, with our wonderful Dave Fettig.
Speaker 6 00:29:09 Yeah. And I'm with Richard Terrell. Am I pronouncing that correctly, Richard? Yes, that's right. Awesome. Richard is the author of what falls away is always poems and conversations, uh, just out from Holy cow press. Uh, very exciting, uh, where I have a reading from Richard and little bit, but, um, before we do that, let's warm up a little bit, Richard. Okay. And then let people get to know you a little bit. This is not your successful career. Congratulations. Um, so let's start with the title, uh, on two counts, the title proper what falls away as always, um, the notes in the book, tell us where it comes from, but I think it would be a nice little set up for readers. And then I want to ask you about the subtitle, poems and conversations, um, what you mean by that. And maybe you can give a sense for the work when we get to that point, but let's start with what falls away is always
Speaker 7 00:30:00 Well, that, that may be the toughest question of the whole interview. Titles titles are always hard for me and I burned through several. Um, and, um, including one, I'm not gonna tell you what it was, but, um, and I really liked it. And then once the me too movement came along, uh, the title that I had almost seemed to be riffing on the main movement. So I had to change that. Uh, um, I think there's the title is borrowed from a famous poem by theater RFP. Um, the waking, uh, his line is what falls away as always, and is near I wake to sleep and take my waking slow. I learned by going where I have to go. Um, and I guess, um, the book, and maybe I can just morph into the, into the, into the subtitle, poems and conversations. What, what I'm doing in this book is having conversations with, uh, other texts, um, other poets, other poems, but also, uh, musicians, composers, jazz musicians, um, painters, artists, and people who are in the popular culture of the past. And so the book is, this is most of the poems are these conversations where I borrow something from another source. So it seemed right to me to borrow a title from another source. Uh, and, and I, and I guess the, the sort of melancholy nature of that title seemed to my mind to fit totally with a lot of the poems in the book.
Speaker 6 00:31:34 Fantastic. So, you know what, let let's get into our reading Richard right away, because that's a beautiful description of the book. I loved encountering your titles of your quotes from musicians and other writers. They become the title of the poem. And especially as a person of a certain age, I knew a lot of the musicians you were referring to, and it was a real treat to, to read what's the conversation you were having with the musician. So why don't you go ahead and give us an example of what you're talking about.
Speaker 7 00:31:59 Okay. This one, um, I'm not borrowing a line, but it certainly has that, I guess, melancholy, uh, air about it. And this is a, this is a conversation with the future, uh, in the form of a, of a letter to the future is about our, uh, our current, I guess, environmental crisis. And it's called dear future. What you think of us will not be your first concern just as you were not ours. You won't know. We thought our diligence would be your salvation, that we looked out at the trees and they just stood there. We each cast a single shadow longer at Twilight. Yes, but soon we couldn't recognize darkness. Each pin in the map stood for 10,000 and there were tens of thousands of pins. So we made more maps, but found the world wouldn't grow future. We knew so much for sure there wasn't room for it.
Speaker 7 00:33:03 All. Each mind was like a garage. So stuffed with belongings that cars had to park on the streets. Soon. There was simply not enough dignity to go around or fresh water, which became the same thing. The very air was like Birdsong. We thought we could identify, but the birds knew it. Not at all. So didn't sing. They couldn't fly any further South than this. We thought we could change the subject that there were kingdoms yet to come. We held truths to be self evident, but it proved to be disguised difficult to tease out from our habits and necessities, which became an embarrassment of exceptions. The moon itself could be populated. Couldn't it? The stars bore out our cold abstractions down the pipe, always another pagan invention, each meadow, a place on which nothing was built yet. People grew sadder for what seemed like a long time.
Speaker 7 00:34:11 And then they got mad future. Perhaps, you know, they had come to believe in pure mind until matter, put a cruel. And to that short semester, they never thought that if the wolves roamed too close to the door, their houses had been too built, too close to the forest future. You became our article of faith, a proper name legally changed to rhyme with ours. If tomorrow, as I write is the beginning of you, the atoms of the days and years between us may change slowly enough, like failing light that you will even think you remember gardens.
Speaker 6 00:34:57 No, thank you, Richard. Wonderful, wonderful choice. Oh,
Speaker 7 00:35:02 Thanks. Yeah. Sort of a little apocalypse in that.
Speaker 6 00:35:06 Exactly, exactly. Um, uh, I want to talk about talking about your relationship with music if we could. Okay. You seem like you seem like a musician, what for meeting this and if you're not, you're pretty, uh, pretty in tune to it. Uh, yeah.
Speaker 7 00:35:20 Yeah. I've I played jazz saxophone, uh, and I have, uh, my whole life. Um, I played for 40 of the last 57 years. I worked mostly with the Larry McDonald quartet in and around the twin cities. And maybe this is a chance to plug my book launch, um, on Sunday, September 13th. Um, and the band is gonna play so, um, music and, um, and then I'll read some poems and through the miracle of technology, I I'm able to read a poem and play the saxophone at the same time. Um,
Speaker 6 00:35:55 It's is this the live event Richard, or is it going to be online?
Speaker 7 00:35:58 Oh, it's going to be on Facebook live and on my webpage and on my Facebook page, which is Richard Terrell, you know, there are other it's T E R R I L L right there. I found there are a lot of Richard Terrell's, but I'm the only one who's was pictured playing a saxophone. So when you find that it's, it's the right one,
Speaker 6 00:36:20 I tell you what we're doing. We're talking about business here on the, on the, on the air, but that's cool too, is send us a note. And when we get closer, we'll be sure like Annie announced earlier, we'll get you on our calendar and we'll, we'll put that up for our listeners. Okay. So let's talk more about music. Um, writers often talk about music and how it informs their writing. And the words are like jazz on a page. Jazz is often, you know, equated with poetry and sometimes with, if your name is Toni Morrison, you get to, you get to you get that blessing too. But, uh, tell me about the relationship between music and poetry for you.
Speaker 7 00:36:53 Um, well, for me, um, poetry starts with the sound of the words, and I know I'm not the only one, the only writer, much less poet to feel that way. But what if I write one line, what drives writing the next line is the sound of the, of the language. And, you know, I, I have strengths and weaknesses, like any writer, any musician, but I think I have a pretty good ear. And I think that serves me well in, in, in poetry. Um, jazz is an improvisitory art form. Uh, when you play a solo, you don't have it planned out. Um, you just go and if you, if you play something, then the next thing you play is determined by what you just played and what the rest of the band is, is just, has just played. So, so writing a poem, a right, or any writing really in its early drafts is improvisitory, uh, like jazz. The difference, I think, is that with a jazz solo, you know, unless you're in the studio, once you play it, the notes disappear into time and space, but with writing, you're obliged to revise and that's where the critical intelligence comes in. So I'd say, you know, two ways that unwinding of ideas and improvisation, and also the sound of language.
Speaker 6 00:38:08 So do you use then when you're playing, think of words ever declines ever come to you and when you're, when you're writing, think of music?
Speaker 7 00:38:17 Um, no, not really. I guess the first I can say definitely no. I mean, it's, you know, it's, it's hard enough to play, to play a good solo. You gotta be listening to yourself and listening to the other people. And, uh, and am I in tune? You know, am I dragging, am I rushing? And then, you know, I'm going to try to play this particular lick and it maybe doesn't come out. Right? Well, sometimes you can take a mistake and make it into art, you know? Sure. If you let it wind up for poetry, I mean, I don't think of music, uh, but, but you know, the rhythm and the sound of words, the consonants, the vowels, the pitch of words, um, is, is very musical and, and it's important to read your poems aloud, um, to hear them and, and that determines, um, well, that, that lets you make them better, I think in revision. Cool. Um,
Speaker 3 00:39:18 Well, how did you come to poetry? What came first for you in your life, music or poetry?
Speaker 7 00:39:22 Uh, the, the music music did, um, you know, like a lot of people of our generation that I started playing the horn when I was 12, you get to junior high as we call it in those days and they say, well, what do you want to play? Right. And I was lucky to pick the saxophone, uh, which is the right instrument for me. I always liked to write. Um, I think when I was about nine, I typed out a family newspaper every month. And the things like that when I was in high school, I, uh, I started an underground newspaper. Those were the days. Um, but it was again, like, I think a lot of poets, especially with fiction writers too. I took a creative writing class in college and that's where I moved over from, you know, writing, um, quasi journalism to, to, uh, to something creative.
Speaker 3 00:40:13 There was a time when there were journals dedicated to poetry, seemingly all over the place, right. Richard, the seventies and eighties. And even into the early nineties, before something called the internet came along and now there's other ways.
Speaker 7 00:40:27 Mmm.
Speaker 3 00:40:30 I don't know what I'm going to ask here, but, uh, other than it was a rich time and, and you could, you could write some poems and get them published if you worked at it. Right.
Speaker 7 00:40:36 Yeah. You know, I think, I mean, I taught, I taught in an MFA program, my whole career, most of my career at Minnesota state Mankato and my students now, former students would know more about online publishing probably than I do, but I think probably it's probably actually easier to publish a home now, um, or to publish a short story or an essay. I also write essays. It's easier to publish now than it was back in the seventies and eighties, uh, with all those little magazines. Uh, but I think, you know, that there, there are so many magazines out there now online that, well, you know, it gets lost in the shuffle, but that's showbiz,
Speaker 3 00:41:22 That's showbiz. That's right. I like to remind our, uh, wonderful listeners that they're listening to right on radio on K F AI. I'm Dave, the amazing Annie is in the studio. And I am speaking via zoom
Speaker 6 00:41:34 With Richard Terrell, the author of what falls away is always poems and conversations. Uh, Richard's a, a local Minneapolis, I believe. Yeah, that's right. So congrats. We, we love our local writers. We really do. I want to talk about craft. I love to talk about craft with poets because it really feels like you're building something and Oh, I have to start with form. So for me, when I read poetry and I love to read for three first thing I encounter when I look at the poem is I see the shape of it. And that tells me something, it might tell me that, well, it's on the modern side or, you know, there's some fo there's some, you know, a formal form to it. If you will, our lack of formality or there's a shape. And that shape might say something about what the poem is trying to tell me. So it always begins with the way the words look on the page. So your different types of forms in this book are they're all over the place and that's it. So here's the question I'm formed from my blathering. Uh, do you start with an idea of form or does the poem and the words take you to a shape? Um, and how important is that to you?
Speaker 7 00:42:40 Well, it's very important and your comments are very perceptive, both about this book and about poetry in general. You're right. I do have different shapes to the poems. Um, um, so I would say that there's not a consistent answer to your question. Like, do I always say, okay, am I going to write this in, uh, in, in long lines or short lines? And a lot of times poems will go through different incarnations where you, you re you might write it out as a prose poem, you know, without line breaks first, and then, uh, and then say, well, this isn't working and then maybe I'll put it into, uh, into, into stands as I do. I do find that if I'm writing something, you know, and it's driven by sound and by content, if most of the stances seem to,
Speaker 6 00:43:24 It'd be about four lines, I try to make them all four lines. Okay.
Speaker 7 00:43:28 I get that consistency. Um, so, so yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 6 00:43:33 Didn't start counting syllables and try to get things to beat the,
Speaker 7 00:43:36 Yeah, that's that, I'm glad you reminded me. That's the only thing I'll place I wanted to go syllable sometimes. And for non poets, uh, you know, poets will have their listening posts will sometimes make all lines, have the same number of syllables, particularly odd numbers like seven, nine or 11, because English is primarily, and I am the language. And traditionally, you know, lions had maybe 10 syllables. I go more by beats by the stress. And I like to write a lot where I, uh, where I have it, or try to have, say, four beats to align or three beaks or some kind of pattern. And in the end, it may not be perfectly consistent because finally the poem has a mind of its own. Uh, and you can't force it into the form, but, but I think probably again, probably because of my ear and because I'm a musician I'm listening, I listened more for beats than I do for counting syllables.
Speaker 3 00:44:34 Sure. That's a great point. And then when you write a poem, for example, it might start with a few words and then you, then you hit the return. A couple of times in a word is sort of falling way out to the right margin. Like words are falling off a cliff. I mean, these, these are really expressive sort of ways of putting words in it. It's very intentional.
Speaker 7 00:44:51 Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And so, so sometimes it's not the rhythm or the counting the syllabus at all, but it is the way it looks on the page, as you say. And, um, and, uh, I have some poems where I do that as well. And, uh, you know, like one word will be way off to the side, but that's when I, I do it mainly it's tumorous. It's mainly to be funny. Um, so, um,
Speaker 3 00:45:16 Sure. Well, I'll tell you what, um, let's have another reading Richard, before we run out of money, because that always happens and poems are meant to be read out loud. I think in this.
Speaker 7 00:45:26 Yeah. And this is a perfect segue. It's almost as if you planned this. Cause the other one I plan to read has those words that are set off by themselves. And, you know, I don't know if we're were reading aloud. I can, I can capture that, but maybe I'll try and yeah,
Speaker 3 00:45:41 We are in sync Richard. We are in sync, my friend.
Speaker 7 00:45:44 Yeah. And you mentioned a lot of these poems, they take as their title align from somebody else. And this line comes from, uh, the baseball pitcher, dizzy D
Speaker 3 00:45:54 Oh great. I love this book.
Speaker 7 00:45:56 Yeah. And, and when I was a kid and maybe Dave, when you were a kid, he, he brought broadcast the Saturday game of the week on CBS. And he was, he was from Missouri. He was that country boy. And he taught corny and it wasn't a put on, he was really that way. And he was noted to have set at the end of a broadcast fans. Don't fail to miss tomorrow's game. And he mentioned straight. He didn't know what he had said. And I realized now that given that the twins are playing, you know, without any, uh, people in the stands, this poem has become sort of precious and timely. So it's called fans. Don't fail to miss tomorrow's game, dizzy Dean. Otherwise you may be in the stands alone. Since this broadcast reaches a wide audience. If tomorrow comes as scheduled, no athletes will leave their caps on during an Anthem that won't be played.
Speaker 7 00:46:55 The flag that won't be flying, may lack both stars and stripes. It will be the opposite of extra innings, less than rain shortened nose zeros will be a fixed to the center field scoreboard above the green Ivy that will still grow in lovely entanglement with the afternoon sun, no promotions, no giveaways, but the overpriced hot dogs will be as good as free. If you can find a vendor, the beer would flow past the seventh curfew. If your thirst for it, hadn't stayed away like everyone else who listened to this broadcast, which reached a wide audience baseball so much like life bench warming at the end of the dugout, stealing signs left stranded in scoring position, sacrifice options to AAA long periods of inaction broken by drama. That's usually unproductive baseball so much like life that for tomorrow's game, you even know the final score.
Speaker 6 00:48:09 I love it. Thank you, Richard. Uh, and for listeners at home or wherever you are, uh, speaking of form, uh, we have words like alone and away floating out there on their own. We have the word long stretched out. We have drama, um, set up, uh, with exclamation marks and, uh, fun things like that. So I thank you for that. I love that reading. I'm glad you chose that poem. I want to circle back to form again or craft, I mean, craft work. So, uh, you know, are you one of these poets who gets divine inspiration and suddenly, you know, you gotta hurry up and run down and grab a piece of paper and a pencil and you, and get the words down. Or do you sit down every day with your coffee and get to work? How do you work?
Speaker 7 00:48:49 Um, well, closer to the latter than the former, you know, poets who wait for inspiration. Uh, well it's a long way to the danger is of course that it doesn't come. Of course, a lot of, a lot of writers do carry around in the old days of pocket notebook. I suppose people do it on their phones now. Um, I don't do that, but I do have a little scratch pad by the bedside and things like that, uh, around the house. That's more so I can sleep if I get an idea, write it down. Cause I forget everything. She's my advanced age. Um, so no, it's more a draft after draft and see the thing is I enjoy revision to me. The first draft is the hard part because usually they're not too good. And the fun part is working on them is putting them away, forgetting that you wrote them and then look at them later as if you found them on the, you know, on the street corner or something. And, and then that's the fun part is making the changes.
Speaker 6 00:49:51 Okay. So you, so, uh, writers listen to this show and all writers like to talk about writing and how right. So you like to sit down at a rate on a regular schedule and uh, tease out memories, thoughts, ideas, and kind of play with them on a page.
Speaker 7 00:50:05 Yeah. Uh, you know, I, I don't know about regular schedule. I'm I'm, I'm not very prolific and I'm slow. It's been 10 years since my last book, you know, I can't wait 10 years for the next one. I'm too old, but so, and I'm, and I have more time retired now from teaching. So the next one will come quicker. But, uh, but yeah, it's, it's, it's again, especially revision a pleasure to sit down. I think, I think writers, most writers learn that that revision writing is revision. The stuff you do at first is the throat clearing.
Speaker 6 00:50:38 Sure. Of course. Right. Um, I'd like to talk about a couple of poems and the first one to say, I really like haiku poem, kind of a lot of people sort of dismiss them as little fun, five 75 things, but I think they're really lovely and a nice discipline. Um, and you have a poem there, um, page 41 bumper stickers, which is so doggone clever. I wish I'd have thought myself, Richard, but you thought of it first and you wrote a lovely Paul, but what I also noticed in there is the pole next to it. And it's entirely different form the Villa Nel, which is kind of fun. Um, there's a thought in the haiku poem and the thought in the Villanova poem, and I'm going to read them out and I'm going to have you talk about it. Okay. Maybe we'll read, maybe read some more of that, but if you allow me to do that sure. Okay. From the first poem called hi to bumper stickers on near the end, um, a brief high cool here, our lives don't really matter much, but we must live them as they do. And then the final line of the page of this poem next, the villain now is hard to master, which is true. The last night of that is never give up. Screw it. Life's a disaster. So do we have here Richard Tarell's Terrell's will view,
Speaker 7 00:52:00 Um, well, you know, these are both comic poems, so, so allies don't mean much, but we must live them as if they do.
Speaker 6 00:52:09 Um, no, I mean, that can be funny. That can be, you know, gloomy too.
Speaker 7 00:52:14 Yeah. Well, you know, I think one, one thing I hope that unifies this book is, is this merging of the comic and the serious, because that's, that's where I think our writing especially gets rich is when you're, you're funny and you're serious at the same time, but there's undercurrents. And so I said, never give up, screw it. Life's a disaster. I'm I think I'm riffing on sort of the don't ever give up kind of a self help, uh, um, you know, lines. Um,
Speaker 6 00:52:47 No, that's a nice line at the end of that particular problem because, um, you address it right to the reader. Um, after you've been working through this, you know, lovely rhyme scheme, which is difficult as you know it, and I think you mean that in many ways, uh, and then you directly address the reader you do that often in these poems, or maybe not often, but it's, it's not uncommon if you do address the reader directly, um,
Speaker 7 00:53:12 I'll have to go back and look, you're probably right. I hope so. I put it in a way, you know, I mean, what's a, what's a poem, but a conversation with a reader,
Speaker 6 00:53:24 Right. That's a great that's. That's true. I lost, I lost my track. Sorry. No, that's fine. Cause we're nearing the end here. We'll tell you what, maybe it'll come back to me, but before we get to the end, um, you mentioned, mentioned again, Richard, if you would, um, your event coming up in September did kick off the book formally and then, uh, talk to us about what else you might be working on. And maybe it's just the next book of poems. Go ahead.
Speaker 7 00:53:47 Yeah. Again, it's a Sunday, September 13th, seven to 8:00 PM. Is the book launch a Facebook live on my page on my page. My name is Richard Terrell, T E R R I L L a or uh, my website is Richard terrell.com. There's, there'll be a link on there. Um, and, um, I'll be reading from the book and also the Larry McDonald quartet of which I'm a member longtime member we'll be playing jazz and I'll be reading some, some of the poems in the book that are about jazz and jazz musicians. And so we, we play a tune that's, you know, that fits with the poem. And then I read the poem at the same time. It's I thought it was very slim. I'm looking forward to it. Book is from Holy cow, press.org. And it's said subtext and next chapter and moon palace and Saint Peter arts center.
Speaker 6 00:54:39 Fantastic. Fantastic. And then I found the question I was going to ask you and we can talk about this one all night. So I'm sorry with out here at the end, we'll wait till Annie cuts us off and that's your poem, the new poetry. And I was going to, I think, I believe that's the name of it that I was going to talk to you about. If that's a commentary on your poetry vote versus whatever you mean by old poetry, if that's a commentary about, you know, the evolution of poetry, do you have particular views about this? Um, um, what are you telling us?
Speaker 7 00:55:13 Yes. All of those things that, um, I think, uh, readers of poetry may not, I'll try to make this quick that I think there was sort of a shift in, in American poetry maybe maybe 15 or 20 years ago to something lighter and, and, and, and a little prosey or like sometimes the poems don't seem to make a lot of sense, uh, intentionally. And so, uh, so this, wasn't trying to be a comment on that and also maybe an example of it, but I think, you know, that any time that there are changes in any art form, the new is always looked at, uh, suspiciously by some it's welcomed by others. Um, so, so yeah, I was playing with that, that idea of how, how things change. Uh, so I'll just read the first few lines, the new poetry, you write it the way you sign someone else's name, you read it the way you read a menu in a foreign language. You could be fluid in day if you don't lose your appetite. So, yeah, so I'm having fun with like somebody, you know, saying Donald Arnett, those new poets are messing things up for me. So that was that I have one section of the book that has the collects all
Speaker 6 00:56:24 These lighter poems. And so I hope they bounce off of each other. Fantastic. And that, that's just a reminder to me and to our listeners, that these are really thoughtful poems. You put a lot into each one and, uh, uh, and you gentle listeners chose to join us and not watch the Republican national convention. You're amazing people. Now you can go back and watch it because the show has ended. I am Dave and I am speaking with Richard Terrell author of what falls away is always. And I, ain't going to turn it back to the amazing Annie in the studio. Thank you very much, Richard. What a pleasure. Thank you.
Speaker 1 00:57:00 Thank you, Dave. Uh, I'm Annie and you are listening to right on radio on KFH 90.3 FM and streaming live on the
[email protected]. I'd like to thank our guests tonight, Richard Terrell and pollster Obon. Plus our listeners who make this show possible without your support and donations KFA would not be possible. You can find more news and info about right on radio at KF ai.org/programs/right on radio that's w R I T E M. Plus listen to recent episodes on our recently launched podcast. You can find on Spotify, iTunes and anywhere else. Podcasts can be found. Now stay tuned for bone shore, Minnesota.
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