Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:01 <inaudible>
Speaker 1 00:01:06 You are listening to right on radio on <inaudible> 90.3 FM and streaming live on the web at <inaudible> dot org. I'm Melissa Alz. Tonight on, right on radio. Josh talks with Michael Amiram about his new book vote for America, a common guy, two electorates, both for America explorers, the electorial process it's past present, and future he questions. Why America is so much of an aspirant to immigrants selling itself as the land of opportunity. When in truth, that opportunity is out of reach to many in a limited democracy
Speaker 2 00:01:50 In the last part of the hour. I, Annie Harville talk with Carolyn Holbrook, a writer, educator, and longtime advocate for the healing power of the arts. She is the author of an essay collection. Tell me your names. And I will testify. She is the recipient of three Minnesota state arts board grants, a 50 over 50 award. And she was the first person of color to win the Minnesota book awards. Kay Sexton award. In addition to writing she's a founder and director of more than a single story. She teaches creative writing at Hamlin university, the loft literary center, and other community venues at Hamlin. She won the exemplary teacher award in 2014, all of this and more so stay tuned to write on radio.
Speaker 0 00:02:31 <inaudible>
Speaker 4 00:03:59 Okay. I am here with Michael Amiram. I'm talking about his book, a vote for America and REMS writing with Calumet began in 2017 and has been political in nature prior to publishing with them. He published several books in Janrus that ranged from poetry to short stories to historical fiction. In 2015, he was asked to read his poetry at the last dedication as an international peace site and his first book with Calumet to 10 years and change at liberal boyhood and Minnesota was entered as a nominee for the Minnesota book award. Michael Amram. Thanks for being on the show with us. Thank you. So you say in the book you had foreseen a future in which real democracy could take root and discuss the parallel of youth where idealism can stand in the state of pragmatism. Does America deserve our unbiased vote?
Speaker 3 00:04:48 Yeah, it does. When I wrote that day, I was getting to my, my basis at my, what I grew up with. I grew up at a time, you know, which is explained in the book 10 years in change in a very political family. And, you know, at the time they were issue is very similar to what what's going on now. Although I think there was a little more hope back then. I mean, at least, at least from what I've saw my young age, you know, democracy could take root, you know, it was undergoing its first, shall I say revolution? You know, since then it's been through the mail, it's getting better and better and worse, and now it's worse, it's growing and it really has nowhere to go. It, it can't, I mean, it really can't get any worse than this, especially after what Trump said about, you know, basically stealing the election. I mean that, that is our democracy. And without that pretty much game over,
Speaker 4 00:06:16 There's a statistic in your book, your, you talked about the voting age population has not participated at optimal capacity since 1792. Do you predict 2020 will be any different?
Speaker 3 00:06:29 I, Oh yeah, I see it already. I, you know, I've, I've heard the, for example, I, I heard, uh, Carolina was, you know, one of the first States to start early voting and they were like twice as many volts. Just that, that first week as there were in 2016, something like 770,000, you know, in the state at that, at that point. Yeah. Yeah. Th this election will bring out scores and we'll see that, that VAP, that voting age population bully, like it's never been since I integrated a lot in the book, how catastrophes, um, war and, and unpopular Wars and terrible presidents, it takes that for people come out and vote. And this is, you know, you have a pen pandemic, a woefully inept president who is intent. I mean, I, I really don't see why anyone's surprised. Um, you know, this is a man who, you know, B basically lived this way all his life, you know, as be being encouraged by sick offense, with no accountability for his behavior. So, so there's no doubt that he will, he will eventually kill us all. I'm not joking. I, what Republicans failed to do is see the really big picture, the long term, you know, cause cause this guy has, you know, designs of, uh, exceeding two terms.
Speaker 4 00:08:18 I recently watched a short video explaining the philosophy of Voltaire's Candide and how we should focus, cultivating our own gardens instead of obsessing over problems in the public. You quote Plato in both for America that a penalty of not participating in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. What's the correct orientation. Do you think? Should we have a balance of both?
Speaker 3 00:08:42 Yeah. Yeah. Um, the, uh, quote I read was, uh, what, what can't can deed is, is app optimism. And, uh, you know, the philosophy was there was a political aggregate. The, um, if you keep a distance between ourselves and the outside, outside world to close in interest in politics or public opinion will, can only lead to, uh, you know, aggravation and endangered. And I believe that, uh, um, and it's funny in chapter five, I wrote how in the mid, mid forties in Chicago, there was a political, uh, at aggregate, you know, basically the Republican party by that point was Mo money was all they had, they needed their money and, you know, FDR with his new deal, uh, you know, this was the beginning of the power biases, any, you know, the history, how that played out, you know, it grew and grew. And then you had kind of a polarization in 1968 of, uh, you know, uh, mayor, mayor Daley ran, you know, ran that city and, you know, kind of, uh, um, you know, I, I pointed out the kind of corruption within the democratic party, you know, and, you know, explain how, you know, I, I thought, um, Jean McCarthy really got railroaded at that election.
Speaker 3 00:10:42 So, so there's an aggravation kind of a play with the word aggregate, a political aggregate, uh, someone Hertz.
Speaker 4 00:10:54 I want you to explain in more detail of the U S and its relationship with the Northern triangle. Is it fair to say the United States is responsible for the mass Exodus of people from El Salvador and Honduras and Guatemala that are pushing towards the U S border?
Speaker 3 00:11:10 Yes, I do. I do believe the, it is incumbent upon the, the United States to bear some responsibility for what's happening today, you know, for, for past actions in that region, uh, namely, uh, you know, things that came out of the Reagan era and, and their push for an anti-communism tenor there, you know, ran through, you know, in the fifties, well into the sixties and seventies, you know, we, we are, America is largely a reflection of its own history and its own political missteps, you know, cause presidents just aren't held accountable for their actions, all it's that he does not want those people, namely, um, of color. I, you know, he's integrated that. And a number of times, there's no question in my mind there, it shouldn't be a question in anyone's buying that he is a, see the racist who, uh, fin Finley veils it, you know, by saying things like I'm the least racist person who else would say that, who needs to say that if you need to say it, it means you are, how does
Speaker 4 00:12:47 Actions of one presidents have repercussions possibly through multiple presidencies?
Speaker 3 00:12:52 For example, um, I pointed out in the book, you know, take, take Roosevelt who is, you know, completely lot of people and a lot of people holding the highest regard Republicans and Democrats, like who didn't, you know, things that could be viewed as, as very racist namely and, you know, in 1939, um, fueled by, um, antisemitism, uh, turning, uh, a ship away of Jews, you know, and sending like 200 back to a waiting death in Germany or incarcerating a Japanese, even packing the courts to get his new deal through. But, but the, these were all, you know, in the name of a pack and the courts was in the name of something that was beneficial in the end to a lot of American workers, you know, and all these presidents who did bad things and, you know, did a lot of good and tobacco to back them up. Trump on the other hand is done nothing for maybe, maybe for us
Speaker 4 00:14:21 Smile, smile,
Speaker 3 00:14:24 But you know, not, not for the American people as president should, he's not, you know, the president of a part of the United States, he's a part president of the United States as a whole. So I ain't me, he's, he's juvenile in this way. And like he mimics behavior. He's, he's seen like a lot of his actions. I say, well, the, I, he, he got that from, so, and so's playbook, he's, he's taken a lot of cues from Nixon, uh, you know, ni Nixon who was, was bad for his time, you know, and, and we'd thought nothing good be as corrupt as Watergate, but, uh, you know, and we've seen, boy, were we wrong?
Speaker 4 00:15:29 Do you think it's time for us to throw out the electoral college,
Speaker 3 00:15:34 The electoral college, um, is I, I don't, I don't see it ever, ever going away. I think that's a conclusion I, I come to in the book, um, it's, it's certainly Trump's bread and butter, you know, without it, he had never been president, uh, without it Bush wouldn't have been president is, is why we have a limited democracy. It's, uh, you know, it can be looked at in a hand, in all the ways they enumerated in the, in the book. Um, it's beneficial even today to States like Montana, um, you know, Wyoming, uh, small, small population, small, uh, electoral vote, vote counts, um, you know, but it's, uh, as a safety net, as I say, it's, it's a last effort for, um, the vote to be influenced by a partisan majority. They, you know, they fear, uh, having a direct election in general election anyways, you know, the primary, every other election is, uh, the way it should be
Speaker 4 00:17:25 American politics, you say is a victim of its own system where it's unwilling to allow third parties, a serious platform in this country. What'd you mean by that?
Speaker 3 00:17:36 It's, it's a victim of its own on system because it's limited, uh, because of the two party system, how it, I mean, there were, there were in the beginning, there, there was a Federalist party that, um, democratic Republican party, uh, and, you know, when, and then you had parties like you and the wigs and the know nothings, um, and all these other, our shoots is you see green party, uh, libertarian today, um, populist, you know, basically a party for everything. Um, you know, and if you have these, you know, every, every once in a while, you'll see of my gain, some notoriety even get on the ballot in some States federally, they have Denver one, um, in Minnesota and like a, I think it was 93, Jesse Ventura, um, was governor, um, from the reform party, you know, it, the way it, the way it's evolved, we're basically trapped in that the a M two party dynamic. And, and, and that makes us a victim of her own, though, in our own system,
Speaker 4 00:19:35 You share in the book, you know, a family of Republican lawyers who have voted for Trump and you have a whiff of doubt, they will, again, do you predict there'll be a change of heart by many well-intentioned Republicans with similar backgrounds, this upcoming election.
Speaker 3 00:19:51 Okay. Here is the way I look at it. Um, you know, in, in, you know, a lot of people have probably already bought in, but, um, you know, I I've, I think that it's gonna come down to, uh, them saving face. None of those Republicans in, in this, this family was talking about, you know, an educated and, uh, um, you know, donors, uh, they had, uh, they hadn't, uh, well, anyone who has drank the Koolaid, you know, and for whatever reason, they're like trapped in this nonsensical world, this IEM, even a world Luciferian, uh, zeolite like, like the battle between good evil and, you know, I, I guess I see it, like, you know, a lot of those people who voted for Trump in, uh, 2016 are said to have, uh, held their nose and voted for Trump. I think those people, that family of Republicans, when it comes down to it will hold their nose in Poland through Biden.
Speaker 5 00:21:48 There are calls to lower, the voting age to 16 because of gun violence. Um, what benefits or drawbacks do you see if this was an acted,
Speaker 3 00:22:00 Wally gunfire, gunfire, violence, um, you know, I see a C you know, the violence stop being, we wouldn't lead the world and, uh, you know, gun gun deaths. Um, the flip side is, are, there'd be a lot of backlash, um, from, uh, these, you know, second amendment groups that, you know, uh, are, is scared, scared to death that, that rate's going to be taken away, um, that, that rate, that simple, basic right, that they have perverted, um, you know, beyond recognition. Uh, um, you know, I recently read that, uh, the boyfriend of, of Brianna Taylor was, uh, you know, but by the very definition of that, right, kept a gun to defend himself against intruders. Although that, that rate, I guess, does that apply to people of color? You know, so it's, there's, there's kind of a, a double, double standard. They're not, um, you know, people of color can, can't defend themselves, um, re rights, put it simply don't apply to everyone. And that that's one of the problems.
Speaker 5 00:24:13 Lyndon Johnson was contemplated mattress signed the civil rights act in 1964. He was quoted as saying afterwards, they thought they just delivered the South to the Republican party for a long time to come after George Floyd, Briana Taylor, Trayvon Martin rash. And we've seen on a global scale, do you think 2021 will be that time starting to end?
Speaker 3 00:24:37 Well, I certainly hope so. Um, you know, this, this is a step in the right direction. Sometimes I question, um, sense of, uh, you know, protesting, um, to these years, to this administration of all people. I mean, if it is, if it wasn't heard before, it's, it's certainly not inconvenient heard by this. Uh, and as, as you can see, is aggravating situation may even be counterproductive, you know, but, you know, I definitely see the frustration, um, the, just the anger, you know, how, you know, judge George Floyd, that was like the straw that broke the camel's back and, you know, and, and now Trump is I can flow conflating this with these, uh, Antifa thugs, you know, and, and blaming people are merely exercising their, their first amendment, right. As they've been doing for, for decades. So I, I mean that, that's, that's what he's counting on. He wants that. I, uh, I guess I, I just wonder what would happen if, uh, you know, if no one came out one night, secret police suddenly found no one, no, no one to two. Yes. I think we'd, uh, you know, take, take a big, uh, lever away from Trump.
Speaker 5 00:26:33 You relay a story that Oprah Winfrey shared of an educated sharecropper in 1946, named Otis Moss, who was wa who walked a total of 18 miles after being directed to different polling stations at each stop, how come it took over four decades in two generations of idealism to find that peak again, that that motivation to want to try to vote.
Speaker 3 00:26:57 Um, well is, you know, I, I, I'm pointing out, you know, the suppression, the, uh, invalidation, the dif different steps that take, you know, the, the, the trivial things like not having, uh, a hyphen correctly placed can invalidate a ballot or a registration form. All of this works, you know, I, especially in college students, like I explained in the book to create a sense of apathy, like, you know, why vote in that, you know, that leads to just people taking it for granted that, uh, they can always vote. And, uh, they will, if, uh, it's, it gets bad enough. I think any anyone could, could, could decipher that democracy is predicated on, on the, uh, the idea that, you know, everyone, everyone will avoid, everyone will participate. And that story of voters MAs, um, for told that, uh, you know, to illustrate like how valuable this was, and especially to people of color, you know, what they went through to be able to avoid what women went through to be able to vote.
Speaker 3 00:28:56 Like I, I mentioned in the book how, you know, so far on, in my life, Holly, easy, it has been for me to vote, you know, and until this election, like, I am my mail and ballot, but, uh, I've heard conflicting stories. Like, you know, certain, someone told me, uh, alien volts are just invalidated just like that Lang blanketly, you know, this is true. I mean, where's some, you know, Biden does not have a chance. No, I, I think at this early date, um, I'll, I'll send in my ballot, you know, like take my chances. My last question for you, Lyndon Johnson was also quoted as saying the vote is the most powerful instrument devised by man for breaking down and justice. Does this instrument hold the same power ESN? No. You know, like, like I said, it voting has been minimized through a history, you know, how loudly it speaks, how, how hard it is, how, how vigilant a Republican administrations are suppressing their motives for doing so in this case, it's unprecedented, you know, you and no one has ever fixed nakedly fixed an election to this extent, because let's be honest, Trump is, is terrified of, uh, now not winning because it will mean he's, he is very likely to be held accountable and will be pressed cuted for everything in a, I hope to God that he is, you know, but, uh, yeah, even even this, I, uh, I mean, I, I don't know what the, what the rules are, but, uh, it can be easily proven that he won the election by illicit means, you know, and the, in that case, uh, I don't see why someone was not disqualified or we strip an athlete of his, uh, metals, if they, uh, you know, drugs is steroids.
Speaker 3 00:31:42 You're listening to me talk with Michael Amiram about his new book vote for America, published by Kalyan, by additions Ram Ram. Thanks for being here with us. Yeah. Thanks for the time. And now this
Speaker 2 00:31:56 Hi, I'm Annie Harvey and you are listening to K FAI 90.3 FM I'm streaming live on the web at <inaudible> dot org. Hi, Carolyn, can you hear me okay. Oh, great. Perfect. Awesome. It's such a pleasure to have you on air. Um, I really, I really loved your collection. Um, could you start us off just, uh, dive us right into the story, uh, by, uh, reading out loud of passage. Okay. Thank you. You're welcome. And thanks for having me, by the way. I definitely have the parent's attention now. Questions flowed one. After the other most centering on, I had stayed in an abusive
Speaker 6 00:32:40 Relationship for so long. How I dug myself out of poverty and how I got where I am now in this classroom with them. I answered all of their questions, candidly, and was especially thrilled to tell them about Ms. Johnson, my eighth grade English teacher, she played a major role in my eventual return to education. Ms. Johnson had somehow made me feel like she saw more in me than just a girl who so often gave teachers good reasons to send her to the principal's office or to simply ignore me, making me feel invisible. She always had a smile for me when I entered her classroom and she enjoyed the poems I wrote in her class. And even though there was a lot of well-educated, there are a lot of well-educated people in my family. She was the first person to make me feel like I might someday be college material myself.
Speaker 6 00:33:26 Her belief in me stayed in the back of my mind throughout my years of struggle. She is the reason why today I look for the light in the students I work with at the private college and the community college, where I have taught because of ms. Johnson. I know how important it is to focus on that light, even though it may not be shining, even though it may be shining dimly when students first enter my classroom, I know firsthand that a spark I light may someday catch fire. And I also know that like ms. Johnson, I may not be the one to witness the flames that I may have ignited.
Speaker 2 00:33:58 Thank you so much. I really love that passage. It, uh, brings up a lot of the themes coursing through the book that I especially appreciate about, um, seeing the good and the uniqueness and humanity. Um, speaking of the way that courses through various essays, um, the essays in this collection, aren't strictly in chronological order, at least in terms of the events they described. Um, but they unfolded in a way that introduced and expanded on ideas and interpersonal relationships and themes. Um, but also with essay collection variety. How did you go about creating an order for the essays in this collection, especially since some had been previously published and was it a challenging task?
Speaker 6 00:34:41 Well, I don't give a lot of credit to my editor. I had a wonderful editor at university of Minnesota press. He helped me arrange the book because as you pointed out, some of the essays were written some time ago and I wasn't quite sure you know, how they should be ordered. And he also told me put, put it into some sort of logical order, so that, I mean, it didn't need to be chronological. It was more based on theme than chronology. So yeah, I needed an objective person to, to help me figure that out.
Speaker 2 00:35:19 That's a wonderful, that's so great that you were able to get, have that positive relationship with your editor. Um, another theme in this collection, um, that I think was treated really well, um, is shame, especially shame brought about in society and it's many nefarious shapes. Um, even in this book, um, so many types of shaming that STEM from anti-black prejudice, uh, racism or classism, um, just within this collection for those who haven't finished it, or haven't read it yet. Um, there are such powerful, real world, examples of shame. People are forced to feel surrounding everything from teen pregnancy to incarceration, um, to being a victim of abuse, um, to feeding your kids on food stamps. Um, do you Carolyn see writing as a tool for overcoming shame? Uh, and if so, how do you see that play out in your own work?
Speaker 6 00:36:14 It's a wonderful question. Thank you. Yeah, it's a great question. Um, creativity definitely helps work through shame. I still struggle with shame and guilt. Um, and I, I just think it's part and parcel of living, uh, living a life in a culture that values something different from who I am. My life has had many, many twists and turns. It has not gone from one trajectory to another. And, um, you know, what I learned is that my journal listened to me when no one else would. And, um, I've also just have a really strong belief in the healing power of, of creativity and of telling your story. And, um, so yes, very much the creative process helped me through Chaim and continues to help me through those, those monsters called shame and guilt. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:37:10 I really loved, as you mentioned, journaling, something I really loved in this collection is the way you pointed out and were honest about seeing cycles in your journal, seeing cycles of different feelings or struggles. Um, I think it's really powerful that you compiled things long enough and it's clear that that is, um, done good for your writing in more of a career sense. Um, another part of the richness of these essays is the way you're able to admit your mistakes, like staying at toxic or racist jobs for too long, or taking the wrong approach for the first part of a teaching opportunity. And then you're able to flip that and laugh at yourself. Um, like the chapter where you describe your children, evaluating your dates, um, how does it feel to include all these different facets of yourself in writing that becomes public
Speaker 6 00:38:00 Well, right now it's feeling pretty good. Um, it took me a long time to decide whether, you know, which of which essays to publish. Some of them have been published in other publications and others, you know, I waited until this book. Um, but yeah, it's always been, um, an important part of my life to, to be honest with myself and to laugh at myself because, you know, through struggles with depression and other forms of mental illness, having a sense of humor is a saving grace along with, with exercise and whatever else you need. So, and, and it's always been important for me, um, that my kids be able to talk to me about whatever they want to talk to me about. And, um, I, I'm just, I really appreciate that. I was able to, you know, create that kind of relationship with my children cause I did not have that with my parents. Yeah, yeah. You know, and I think a lot of people still, you know, they, they struggle with having, you know, honest relationships with their parents. So it's been really hard. It's been really important for me today. And as long as I've been a mom to have that with the kids yeah.
Speaker 2 00:39:15 To harken kind of all the way back to the passage you, uh, read at the beginning, um, in which you discussed, uh, teaching for teen parents, uh, and teaching writing skills in particular, um, and allowing vulnerability and honesty to kind of open the flood Gates, um, something that you prominently demonstrate in your teaching experiences throughout this collection that I really liked, um, was the, um, importance of meeting people, particularly young people where they are, and really seeing them and acknowledging the good in them. This isn't exactly about writing. But, um, if you have advice for listeners, um, just while thinking about that, which has demonstrated in so many beautiful ways in your books, um, how would you recommend that folks, um, begin to build that skill in their own lives, um, to take people who may be in a different age demographic than them really where they are, and just sit with them and listen with them.
Speaker 6 00:40:22 Okay. I really love your questions. My goodness. Yeah. I mean, this can be true of, of teaching and also just of meeting people who are different from yourself in whatever environment, to, to just be really cognizant of who they are and that they are, that they are different from you. And that doesn't mean that they're bad or wrong or something like that. But, um, you know, something I've learned since we've been wearing masks is to know, yeah, yours is really cool, um, is to really pay attention to people's eyes, people smile all over their faces, you know, and it's just more recognizable now. Um, since we can't see the mouth with these masks, I'm very much aware of how people are, are, are, um, what's the word I'm looking for or are coming to meet me. Um, and you know, again, I think that one of the most important ways to relate to people, whether they're students or whatever, or to just be very much aware of who they are, hear them, hear them when they speak to you.
Speaker 6 00:41:36 Yeah. What does it mean? Because the student knows when they walk into a classroom within the first five minutes, whether you like them or not, they know, and they can tell whether you are going to treat them fairly or not. Um, and, and just, you know, again, ms. Johnson, my eighth grade English teacher set that example for me by treating me like, you know, I wasn't to her, I wasn't just that bad kid that needed to be sent to the office. She saw, you know, behind that bravado that I tried to so hard to, you know, to, to play up. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:42:13 Yeah. I think that the, the listening, the body listening as well as the vocal listening is demonstrated really well in your work, in terms of your ability to kind of read the room in a classroom or another environment, um, the way you write that is really, uh, really wonderful and really present in the SAV award. Um, the way you've found yourself in a depressive period. Um, as you kind of mentioned moments ago, you found yourself in a depressive period and used a, kind of a methodical structure of writing, walking, outdoors, just in your neighborhood. Um, and as you said, taking it one day at a time, um, I found it very inspirational as someone who experiences depression. Um, do you have advice for any listeners who want to add creativity in their lives while also experiencing mental illness that can make their daily reality challenging?
Speaker 6 00:43:08 Yeah. I absolutely believe that people who are struggling may have more creativity than people who are not. And I think it's important for us to tap into that creativity in whatever way that works for us. You may enjoy cooking and creating, you know, feeding people in really creative ways where someone else might find writing their, their creative outlet, someone else, music, someone else just finding different places to walk. Um, as it's just really, I think really important to recognize that, um, um, that, you know, no matter who says to you that creativity is unproductive, that you need to find a real job or some garbage, like that is just not healthy. Don't listen to them because in your own gut, in your own being, you know who you are and you know, your own creativity, you know, what lights you up, go there. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:44:12 I thought it was really powerful in the book when you, uh, discussed, uh, one of your daughters. Forgive me. I can't remember which who was getting bad grades, but you didn't interpret that as, Oh, she isn't intelligent. You just saw something wrong in the environment or the way she was being, uh, pressed. Um, so yeah, seeing that in others, seeing that in yourself, um, and incorporating it into your life. Um, another big reason I tore through this book is, uh, because of your writing style itself, it is both smooth and straightforward enough to not bog the reader down and excess detail, um, or lengthy metaphors, but it also evokes place and emotion in a way that transports the experience well, um, into the mind of the reader. Um, do you feel that your style has evolved a lot over your life? Like, do you feel like you are close to where you started? Um, and if you've made changes, do you feel it was deliberate or, uh, like kind of you, you go through a lot of classes and writing groups in the book, um, but do you feel it was a deliberate change? Um, whether taught or chosen?
Speaker 6 00:45:24 I think it evolved over time. And, um, I think that, you know, most of, most of the stories in the book went through multiple drafts, a couple of them, some of the ones that I consider them, more difficult ones to tell when to went through 13, 14, 15 different drafts. And, um, you know, when we decided which ones were going to go into the book, some of them are pretty old. So I had to take a second look at, you know, how do I see this issue now as opposed to it then? Yeah. And, um, and then, you know, just the, the, the smoothness of the writing that you so wonderfully speak of, thank you so much for that. So wonderful compliment. Um, didn't just happen overnight. Um, you know, lots of practice, lots of thought, lots of, you know, getting frustrated, throwing it away, picking it back up sometimes five, six, seven years later. And seeing what I missed before with, uh, with a new lens and also, um, a little bit more experience as a writer. So we all, we really need to be patient with ourselves in developing whatever we write. What do you write, Annie?
Speaker 2 00:46:47 You caught me, um, I write a short fiction and short comics. I'd like to pull out and do a graphic novel phase at some point, but I do write short fiction and short comics. And then I'll occasionally write a book reviews. Um, mostly because I like to be excited about books in a public forum with others. Um, yeah,
Speaker 6 00:47:13 It really comes through in your questions that you are excited about what you're reading,
Speaker 2 00:47:17 I think in, um, particularly as exemplified well in your memoir style. Um, I feel like many memoirs are very present in the, and go through conveying all of the weight and the emotion of physically being there. But then on the other end, there also is a tradition of memoirs with a lot of kind of retro Spectron and introspection that comes over time. Um, and something exciting about this book I felt is that it's able to incorporate parts of each. Um, it really felt like you'd experienced these events in different phases of your life, both in, um, living them experiencing consequences of them. Um, and then later getting to have that introspection, getting to find those perhaps conclusions that you wouldn't have had while you were still experiencing the emotions of just being there.
Speaker 6 00:48:16 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yup. Yeah, totally. Yeah. That's absolutely accurate
Speaker 2 00:48:25 As someone who lives and works in the twin cities and for anyone who's listening in the twin cities, I know people listen online also. Um, but there is a full Rolodex of twin cities, literary organizations past and present, um, some founded by Carolyn, some co founded by Carolyn. Um, and, uh, it's, it's clear that you've had a lot of experience finding what makes a writing group tick, what makes a writing group work for different people's needs. Um, so for those at home who may be thinking, how can I pursue my writing over time? Um, your experiences in this book provide a good model of creating paths to community and excellence where they weren't before, um, for you've created writing groups in your area. Um, something I love in this book is, uh, for those who haven't finished or haven't read it yet, Carolyn literally asks for a job she wants and gets it. Um, she asks for a job at a university and gets it. So that's pretty cool. Um, but, uh, if a listener wanted to find or create a community or mentorship in the arts, but didn't know where to start, um, what would you recommend just for folks at home?
Speaker 6 00:49:43 Well, like you said, um, there's a whole Rolodex of arts organizations here in the twin cities. Um, but many people don't live in the twin cities and things aren't as accessible to them. Um, as they weren't accessible to me when I first started, uh, and you know, I just, well, I'm just kind of a bold person, I guess, and I'm in my own quiet, introverted way. I knew what I needed. So I just went out and started it. And, you know, one of my sons once told me that, um, you know, he, he thought that I was, you know, seeking fame and fortune or something like that. And you know, what I was really looking for was support and what I could, you know, needing what I, what I needed as a writer. I had no idea that other people needed what I needed to.
Speaker 6 00:50:34 So it's like, you know, what my response to him was, you know, I needed to find a way to, um, you know, take writing classes. So I created some, and then I turned around and saw, there were a lot of people following me, which I did not expect, you know, to do again. I, I know some people who are more practical than I would disagree with this, but I'm going to say it anyway, follow your heart, because if it doesn't lead you in the wrong place, you know, when you are looking for the, for a way to exercise your creativity. Yeah. That's again, somebody, a lot of people may not agree with that, but it works for me. It's what I have to do.
Speaker 2 00:51:19 Your son's comment is interesting because I feel like it kind of points out the difference between writing or art as a commodity and writing or art as a psychological process. Like the feeling of writing out an idea and trying to pick out like themes are memories or important notes or drawing, um, versus writing to create a final product, whether you gifted or sell it or anything else. Um, and I think that though, this book is a great commodity. I enjoy owning it. Um, I think that it's also a really wonderful Testament to, um, what can come of deciding to infuse a writing practice and a writing community in your life. Um, and we have to wrap up right about now, but it's been so fun and delightful to have you on the show. And I really appreciate you being here.
Speaker 6 00:52:10 Well, thank you so much. Thanks again for inviting me. Bye. Bye I'm lefthanded too. All right, bye bye. Bye.
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