Speaker 0 00:00:00 Um,
Speaker 1 00:00:07 You are listening to right on radio on cafe 90.3 FM and streaming live on the
[email protected]. I'm Josh Webber. And tonight on right on radio, Dave is joined by Maureen Gibbon to discuss her latest novel. The last notebook of Edward Manet. She's also the author of the novels, Paris red thief and swimming, sweet arrow. Her work has appeared in the New York times, literary hub, Playboy and other publications. She lives in Northern Minnesota
Speaker 2 00:00:35 And I'm Mandy Harvey in the last part of the show. Josh, we'll talk with Barbara and Jim about their book. Bud's jacket and American flyer of aids. The Nazis in occupied, France after bailing out of their shot plane over coastal France in world war II. You got to love that. Start James, bud Wilkie, and his fellow airman. Robert Neal found themselves on a harrowing desperate Odyssey of escape and evasion through Nazi occupied Europe. Butts jacket is a true tale of adventure, courage and determination, all this and more. So stay tuned to write on radio.
Speaker 3 00:01:13 Hello Marine. This is Dave Fetty. Got Kathy. I K F a I right on radio. Are you with us?
Speaker 4 00:01:19 I am with you, Jay.
Speaker 3 00:01:21 Wonderful. It's great to have you here calling from Northern Minnesota, which is a big place.
Speaker 4 00:01:27 Yeah, I I'm I'm right by Bemidji. It's very cold and drifted in up here. Right.
Speaker 3 00:01:36 I get them that we could all imagine that. Well, good for you say, um, we're very excited to talk with you about your book. The last notebook of I'm going to say the English pronunciation, Edward Manet, you can correct. Um, but uh, we'd like to start near the top of the reading so people can get a sense for what this is all about, but before we do, let's talk a little bit about, um, how this book came about. It's it's, uh, tell us the shape it takes. And, uh, so people understand what, what you tried to do here, what you did do here.
Speaker 4 00:02:05 Yes. Uh, so this book focuses on the last three years of Manet's life and he's ill. He's quite ill at this point, but I am drawn to his story because he goes on painting until the very end of his life. And I found him to be an inspiring figure, uh, personally, and as an artist and it, it was a joy to immerse myself in his life and in his artwork, uh, as I wrote this book. So it's, it's, it's kind of a love letter to Edward Manet, I guess
Speaker 3 00:02:55 Well said. And, uh, just to put a pin in at a point on it for our listeners, uh, you wrote this it's a novel it's, uh, it's, it's your interpretation of the last years of Manet's life in the form of a journal, the last notebook. Um, we'll talk a little bit more about, um, how you sort of mind that idea, but before we do let us have a reading, give us a taste for what you accomplished here.
Speaker 4 00:03:21 Okay. So I'm going to, uh, read, uh, it's maybe about two thirds through the book. Okay. So Paris seven, October, 1881. So happy was I to return to Paris that I threw myself a party last night, or at least it felt that way to me, in addition to opening the studio to anyone who would come, I hired a young waiter from a cafe on bat tech NOLs to serve drinks. I thought it would be just that and evening of laughter gossip and quick remarks, but then the actress Eugenie Marie Darlow came in with her younger sister and their arrivals quickened everyone's pulse in the studio. When the two of them made their way over to me after thanking Mademoiselle Darlow from visiting, I asked if they would pose for quick sketch. Well, Ann May have. She likes you. Jenny Marie said laughing. I think I would like some champagne.
Speaker 4 00:04:27 The younger sister looked down at her dress, which was much simpler than her siblings and said, what? Just like this, you are charming as you are. I told her. And as soon as a genre, Marcy for that is Ann's new stage name took her place on my stool. Things began to happen. People altered their stances and lowered their voices in order to better watch this young woman. It was not just because I was drawing her either. I work all the time on such nights and people do not pay such attention. There was something unusual about Madden was ELDs and Marcy. It is partly her face. She has an unusual profile, but it is more than just her looks. Someone would call out a question or comment and she would answer prettily in a word or two, never breaking her pose. The longer she sat, the more her eyes seem to shine. She radiated some kind of magic and the air in the studio, fairly crackled with it. I worked quickly with my pastels. The main thing was to get her wide set eyes beneath the brim of the hat and the trend drills, the tendrils of her hair. When I added a single black line beneath the peach of her mouth for the chin, I heard someone say over my shoulder, that's it?
Speaker 3 00:06:05 That is, was Marine given reading from the last notebook of Edward Manet. That's a beautiful selection to read from. Um, there are so many moments in this book Marine, where I feel like you really capture what it means to paint. And I think that's hard to do. I recall a quote, I believe it was from Elvis Costello many years ago, writing about music critics. And he said, writing about music is like dancing about architecture. You know, it's really hard to do it well. And, uh, you chose to write about painting and not only painting, but, uh, about a particularly famous painter whom all of us, many of us know, and many of us love. Um, so let's talk a little bit more of how you crafted this novel Marine. Um, I did just a very little bit of research, many kept a notebook, but only one or so from my reading and earlier on in his life. So, uh, tell us how you put this all together and, uh, how you came up with this idea.
Speaker 4 00:07:09 So I, I love to write novels from a first person perspective. In fact, that's the only perspective I've ever used in my novels. So I, I never actually even entertain the idea of doing a third person. And, and once I started to think about manage voice, I just heard it very clearly. And I kind of liked the idea that, you know, we, we would get, or I could, I could try to capture this confiding private voice, uh, if, if I chose to use journal entries and there's, there's some indication that he, he was interested in writing and may have done some writing at a certain point, but he he's, there's not even a lot of written material, um, that, that he produced in his lifetime. So in some ways I was to my advantage because I, I could make things up. Yup, yup. Uh, of course though, lots of letters and it was really fun to pour over letters and, uh, try to, to pull the voice that I found in those letters out into, into journal entries. So, yeah.
Speaker 3 00:08:49 Yeah. So let's talk a little bit more about voice very important and, uh, uh, I believe you teach also, so, um, correct me if I'm wrong. Yeah. Um, you mentioned voice a number of times, how committed were you to trying to determine Manet's voice and to keep it, or did you say I'm going to take this and run with it and it's M G Marine Gibbons voice through Manet?
Speaker 4 00:09:15 You know, maybe it sounds strange, although I think, I think writers say things like this all the time. Uh, I heard his voice clearly in my mind and it was very much his voice. It, it, uh, it, it never felt like a push to find that voice. And I mean, clearly I'm, I'm a very different person I'm living in, you know, very different time. I'm a woman, I have an entirely different life than he had. And yet, you know, when you look at someone's artwork, I mean, don't, don't you get this incredible sense of how they see the world. Um, so, so it always felt strangely natural. And I could just hear, you know, the, the S the low and soft, clear voice of this artist. And, um, I, I loved it. I loved being in that state.
Speaker 3 00:10:27 Okay. You mentioned his letter is, and they probably were very important in, in gathering that information, but how about his work? Uh, how much time did you spend the silly question to ask it this way, but, you know, looking at his pictures, um, you referenced to, you get to know an artist by looking at the pictures. That's very true. Um, how does that work for you with many,
Speaker 4 00:10:50 Well, of course, lots and lots of things in books online. Um, but I also, you know, the last time I was in New York city and, uh, had some time to spend, I, I went to the mat and sat in a room with a painting of his, uh, Jost sat, you know, I've sat there with victory and we were on 10 and watch people come to look at her. And, uh, so all sorts of forms of, of spending time with his paintings. Also, he illustrated many of his letters with little watercolors.
Speaker 3 00:11:35 So, yeah.
Speaker 4 00:11:37 Yeah. Even when you're, you know, researching letters and dates and finding out what he's saying to different people, he's corresponding with your you're also getting treated to those sketches, those little, you know, in his life, cats and flowers and pieces of fruit. So, yeah.
Speaker 3 00:11:59 Yeah. You include sketches in the book, um, and that's an extra treat readers out there in bulk land. Uh, why did you select the sketches you selected and do you want to, um, um, describe some of them and I am holding up your beautiful book right now and showing my colleagues here that I also sketched the sketches on the opposing page because I couldn't stop myself and they're getting a good chuckle, a lot of that, but at any rate, let's go back to the real thing here, which is why did you select what you selected?
Speaker 4 00:12:33 Yeah, I, I, well, I mean, one thing was I wanted to stick with, with sketches rather than paintings. I think there is an etching in there because I really wanted to use one little boy's face. Um, but I, you know, I tried to stick with pencil sketches, so that narrowed down the field a little bit. Uh, and, and I mean, some of it was, uh, the word I used in my, my afterward is, um, capricious, you know, I just, something would delight me and I would just want to include it. Um, sometimes the sketches themselves inspired scenes or confidences that he's, you know, interesting to the pages. It was really, I just kind of went with my heart and, uh, and, and sh and chose maybe lesser known work works.
Speaker 3 00:13:37 Oh, sure.
Speaker 4 00:13:38 You know? Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:13:40 Um, and for me, there were revelation, I'm not familiar with his sketches. Um, that's on, that's on me. I haven't taken the time to look at them, but there they are. And, uh, they're a nice little treat.
Speaker 4 00:13:51 Yes. Uh, you know, you know, I'm looking up at the one on page 2 24. I mean, it, it truly is a sketch, a few lines of a man with a cane and yet how much it communicates. Yeah. You know, and of course, I mean, he's, he's the master, right? Yeah. But, um, just the, the, the F the few lines and how eloquent they are.
Speaker 3 00:14:22 Yes. So, you know, Marine, we could say the same about your writing that for a segue. Yes, it's true.
Speaker 4 00:14:34 I did. I okay. So I, I did see a review on Amazon over the book and, and somebody was very upset. I think that on some pages, there's a single sentence. So not everybody likes my, my sketchy kind of writing of all it's a
Speaker 3 00:14:51 Notebook. It would, it would've seemed odd if it was just wall to wall carpeting. My God, you know what, since we're on that subject Marine, if you don't mind turning to page 77, and I think one of them was beautiful pages in the book is a one-sentence page. And I've asked you to read that to us, please, for us page 77.
Speaker 4 00:15:12 Sure. Bellevue eight, September 18, 80 after rain PLA washed the breakfast dishes. She dried her hands on her apron and checked her hair with her fingers, searching for strands that had pulled loose from the role.
Speaker 3 00:15:32 So I've read that sense. A number of times, it's very beautiful, um, Marine, uh, and I've underlined, underlined the hands hair fingers and strands. And I found myself seeing that picture crystal clear as if I were a painter as if I were Manet. Um, and I think that's what you've done here is you've, you've, uh, uh, somehow I don't know, seduced us, or, uh, B wished us into seeing the world through his eyes. And, um, that's a beautiful example of it. So in, uh, in your face, Amazon guy, whoever wrote that, that's what I say. So, um, Paris red is about painting. And so, um, what's up with painting and Marine Gibbon. How's that for?
Speaker 4 00:16:23 Yeah. Um, I have, I have been in love with these paintings since I was a teenager and, and in love with victory in Iran. It's chin. Wow. Okay. So she, she, right. She's his, you know, she was Manet's favorite model, the red head, the one in Olympia, she's in so many of his paintings and she she's got a cleft chin, and I adore that he painted her chin with its cleft. It's not this classically beautiful, you know, statue, uh, of a Greek goddess, kind of a chin it's it's, it's a woman's chin. Anyway. Um, I fell in love. I fell in love with, with a woman's chin. Um, yeah, so, so they'll, so the whole thing started, you know, many, many years ago. And I, I didn't quite know, you know, how, um, how much it would shape my life as an artist. I mean, I've been working with this material really for the last 20 years. Wow. And, you know, I got I, so I wrote Paris read and write, and I had that perspective of the young working class woman who, who is modeling for artists and making her way in the world. And I loved writing that book on and I got to the end and I realized I was not done. I was not done with that material. And, and he was the thing calling to me. Wow.
Speaker 3 00:18:23 So do you paint,
Speaker 4 00:18:26 You know, I, my impulse is to say, no, but that's not true. I, I have painted, and my journals have watercolors in them and little sketches. So it's, it's one of the ways that I have, you know, when I've traveled, I, I sit down and scratch things. Are they, are they good? No. Well, it doesn't matter. Yeah. They helped me see
Speaker 3 00:19:01 There you are. Um, did they help you write and, uh, add on to that? How was painting, like writing for you? Have you thought about that?
Speaker 4 00:19:12 Hm. I, for as much as time as I've, as I've spent thinking about painting, uh, to me, they, they still feel like very different kinds of activities. And, and yet I think it's partly the taking of time to see and to render. Um, so-so of course there, there are similarities. Um,
Speaker 3 00:19:51 I imagine that artists, um, included inclusive of photographers, visual artists see the world in different ways than perhaps quote unquote normal people do. And, uh, you have two sets of eyes as far as I'm concerned, a painter's eyes into writer's eyes. And, uh, we wanted to explore that a little bit, um, to salamander and the dragon fly, uh, things like that pop up in here. Or is that from your imagination Marine? Um,
Speaker 4 00:20:17 Uh, no, no. I mean, he may has a very, uh, famous depiction of, of a dragon fly and he, I didn't include this particular sketch in the book, but he also has some, some great pencil sketches of, of salamanders and flies and a spider. He, he noticed the tiniest things. Yeah. And, uh, you know, look, I, I live in Northern Minnesota, partly because I am astounded by nature. And so, so I personally do pay attention to dragonflies and I, I do get really excited when I see tiger salamanders. You know, that, that is something that I recognize, um, when I see his sketch. I mean, he, I, I mean, if you take the time to draw a sketch, you've you, you're, you're capturing that little moment with this being, whether it is a spider or a salamander, so sure. That's a little bit of me and that's a little bit of Northern Minnesota, but it's there, it's there in the notebooks. Right. You know, there, he, he saw and noticed that level of life. Hmm.
Speaker 3 00:21:54 You described that very well in there. Talk to us a little bit about, or tell us about the studios that you described. They seem wild and fun and crazy, and I want to be in one of them. Were they real, or did you dream these up?
Speaker 4 00:22:07 No. No, they're, they're real. And, you know, he had a number of studios through, throughout his lifetime. Um, you know, he really is in one part of Paris for, for most of his life, but there were several locations. And, um, so what, what is showing up in the book? You know, that this is his final studio, and I believe that he made this move to this final studio, because it was really hard for him to do stairs at the end of his life. Um, so, so these are real places and, and, and I did research them and I, you know, this idea of having a party in your studio, uh, I didn't make that up. I think, I think there were some really fabulous times. Uh, I think this was a gathering place and I think his studio was really lively. He, he was a social person and, you know, when, when it became difficult for him to move through Paris as, uh, as he would have when he was younger and healthier, um, you know, his social life didn't stop. It just came to him. Oh, sure. So, yeah, I think they must have really been wonderful evenings.
Speaker 3 00:23:30 Um, how have people responded to the book Marine, but that's too broad a question. How about people who may know Manet or think they do, or that era, or, you know, um, uh, are they forgiving of a, to, uh, tell an imaginative story or do they want everything to be, as they think it was?
Speaker 4 00:23:51 Well, you know, I, I I've had so many people say that they, they had to slow down and let themselves read the book in a different way. Uh, you know, certainly the journal entries don't exactly lend themselves to, uh, building an arc of suspense. Right. And yet, you know, there, there is an overall arc, um, uh, I mean, unfortunately it's, it's that he's dying. Um, but what, what people have said that has meant so much to me is that when, when they read the book, as it is written, they want to go and look up his painting. They are, are able to enter the moments that he is describing and, and they feel that the book is somehow showing them how to see and how to look at things. And that feels deeply rewarding to me.
Speaker 3 00:25:07 Yeah. That's well said. I would agree. That's exactly right. And not only just see, but as I mentioned earlier, to see through the eyes of an artist, um, and that's really something special and talk about something special that has been the time that we have had together Marine, which is ended. Can you believe it? Yeah. I
Speaker 4 00:25:23 Don't know. That felt fast.
Speaker 3 00:25:25 That felt fast. It was fast, but it was, you know, roughly 27 minutes. And so, but I want to, uh, I'm going to push my luck here and ask you really quickly what you're working on next, because we want to have you back.
Speaker 4 00:25:37 Oh, uh, I'm. I'm working on a mystery set in Northern Minnesota,
Speaker 3 00:25:44 Ladies and gentlemen, did you hear that? A mystery Northern Minnesota? I'm sure there are many up there. Do you want to tease it for us a little bit?
Speaker 4 00:25:50 Well, um, there's a, uh, reporter named Johnny Holly and she, she stumbles into a story that affects her deeply and she gets drawn into looking for a murderer,
Speaker 3 00:26:06 Man, ladies and gentlemen, we want this book marina hope it comes out soon. And I hope we hear about it first. Okay,
Speaker 4 00:26:16 Wonderful. Thank
Speaker 3 00:26:17 You. Been a treat to have you have a lovely snowy evening.
Speaker 4 00:26:21 Thanks so much.
Speaker 3 00:26:22 Thanks. Bye-bye. And now, bye. And now this
Speaker 5 00:26:27 Programming is supported by two Betty's.
Speaker 6 00:26:30 Everybody knows about two Betty's it's the locally owned company providing green cleaning services for residential and commercial spaces.
Speaker 5 00:26:38 Besides being eco-friendly to Betty's is known for offering its employees, flexibility that he wages, health insurance, and a 401k to Betty's is looking for people to join their team now, to learn more, go to, to Betty's clean.com/jobs desk to Betty's clean,
Speaker 7 00:26:56 Um, slash jobs. Black history month is a long awareness raising action that highlights the contributions of African Americans, black people, and Africans across the diaspora, including south and central America and the world Bobby Seale and Huey P Newton founded the black Panther party for self-defense in Oakland, California on October, 1966, to monitor police activities and challenging police brutality in black communities, the black Panthers had a variety of community. Social programs like free breakfast for children and community health clinics. The black Panther party had a membership that reached a peak in 1970 with offices in 68 major cities and thousands of members until the party dissolved in 1982, KPI has a strong tradition of celebrating blackness with special programming in the month of February and amplifying black voices of the African diaspora all year round. For more information, or to be part of KPI's BHM programming, go to kpi.org/b H M 22.
Speaker 1 00:28:38 Hello, Barbara and Jim, are you with me? Well there. Hi, Jim. How are you doing?
Speaker 8 00:28:44 I am doing very well. I hope you are as
Speaker 1 00:28:47 Well doing. Very good. Thanks for asking, is your wife gonna be joining with us or is it just gonna be you it's just
Speaker 8 00:28:53 Going to be me. Her, her fatigue is pretty extreme these days
Speaker 1 00:28:56 Because every treatment. Okay. I'm sorry to hear that. Well, we have you and that's great. Does he want me to talk him with Jim to discuss, um, uh, biography? He helped his wife write called uncle Bud's jacket in American flyer, evades the Nazis in occupied France. The war tells of the harrowing story of how James bud Wiltshire, who was shot down over Nazi occupied France, and was able to make it home with the help of many French citizen helpers. Welcome to right on radio. Jim, thank you. So I was wondering to talk about how this story came about from the, from the outside of the book. Um, we discovered that Barbara first heard about this story of her uncle survival, nearly 40 after world war II. How did that come about?
Speaker 8 00:29:45 Well, her father had been a Navy veteran and, um, so bud will, she was his brother-in-law and, um, in the 1980s, when Barbara and I were married, we had our family. Um, she was having a phone call with her dad one day. And, uh, he mentioned that uncle bud went to France. And so Barbara knew uncle bud. She, she had met him when she was a little girl periodically. They weren't close the families weren't close. Um, um, primarily because her mother and, and Bud's wife, uh, were, were not exactly compatible people, but, you know, she liked him and he'd always been kind to her. And so she was interested, but then she was swept away with, uh, the everyday things of life, um, with Danny in about 2014, uh, we began where she began a book club in our neighborhood and they read a book called the Nightingale in the Nightingale.
Speaker 8 00:30:54 There are some, uh, soldiers who escape France, escape the Nazis, uh, by going over the Pyrenees mountains. And she read the book and it, even then it didn't prompt this memory in her, but, um, she and her book club members were talking and one of the book club members said, you know, I thought, I think they just made that up. And that sort of shocked her into recognition that her dad had told her about this story about her uncle bud. And, and from that point on, she was kind of obsessed with it, you know, and it's been a great and, and beneficial obsession, but it's been a really important part of her life and my life and the Wilkie family life, because they had not recognized any of this stuff themselves. Their dad really hadn't told them much about it. Um, and they kind of knew that things had happened to him, but, you know, they just let it rest. And then when, when bud died and Rosemary died, there was just these boxes of documents and letters and photographs, but they didn't think anything could really be made of it. And Barbara was the one that began to play detective and figured it all out.
Speaker 1 00:32:16 I want to ask you about this. So, um, why do you think by Wilkie rarely spoke about his world war II experience?
Speaker 8 00:32:24 Y well, uh, part of the reason was he was a kind of reticent, man. He didn't, you know, brag about anything. Um, you know, he just quietly did his duty. Part of it was because the, um, the, the stories and the documents were classified for a long time. So, um, the, the military, the us military, uh, wanted to know everything that had happened to the soldiers who had had these experiences, but they didn't want the enemy to know that they knew about this stuff. Um, and they certainly didn't want anything to get back to the Nazis so that they could track down the French hoppers and kill them. And then part of it also, I think, was that, um, he was a veteran who had been exposed to war trauma. Um, and he did not really want to talk about his feelings.
Speaker 1 00:33:25 So in reading the book, I discovered that Barbara was able to reconnect with Bud's son, Jim Wilkie, and he gave him, like you mentioned this box of war memorabilia. I was wondering, you could talk about what objects were found in the box.
Speaker 8 00:33:39 Well, remarkably, um, there had been a lot of photographs of the trip that they took back to France and, um, 1983, um, Rosemary, uh, Bud's wife, um, knew some of the story and was very supportive and sympathetic. And at one point she said, you know, but we've, you know, that it's 40 years ago, let's go back. And, uh, so they, um, contacted, uh, some of the people who had helped them, they arranged, uh, for a tour, um, and, uh, Rosemary kind of set that all up and, and off they went. Um, and then Rosemary documented on the back of all these pictures they took here was, you know, so-and-so and so-and-so, and, uh, this is where we were. Um, and that became part of what Barbara started to, to mine as the, uh, the, or for her story.
Speaker 1 00:34:43 What was the process like for getting this book published? Did it take long time before you and Barbara were able to find four squared books to pick it up?
Speaker 8 00:34:52 Well, she had, uh, uh, done a little internet research and, and came across this gentleman, Chris fares, he's a British guy who lives in Stillwater, and he has, um, a book club and essentially the book is self published. We paid for the book to be published. Um, and then, uh, Chris had a knowledge of, uh, different book printers. Um, and so part of it went through a hardcover edition. That's sort of a special edition that we gave to, uh, friends and family and, and, uh, people in the story. And then part of it came through Amazon. Um, but, you know, while we were actually writing the story, we didn't talk to Chris at all. We just were, you know, trying to do it, Barbara wrote as long as she could. And then when she became ill, um, she said, you know, I can't do this anymore. I need some help. So I was glad to sort of step in and do what I could. Um, and then when it was kind of all sorted out more or less in, in the editing process, we contacted Foursquare again. And Chris was very helpful in saying, here's, here's what I would say. The next thing to do was, and, you know, after a little reflection, we tried, we decided to trust everything he said, and he was right.
Speaker 1 00:36:15 Let's get into the guts of the book now. Um, bud fluid, B 17 F flying fortress, and for our listeners don't know, this is just a mammoth of a plane despite having four, 1200 horsepower engines. These planes were very slow compared to what they were encountering on the day of the attack. Um, compared to these FW one 90 German fighter planes. Jimmy was, where did he talk about what happened on May 17th, 1943 that caused bud to eventually have to escape his plane and fall out at 27,000 feet?
Speaker 8 00:36:52 Right? Well, they, they did fly as high as they could to be, uh, you know, uh, hard to reach by the flack and by the fighters. But, um, one of their engines was weak and then stopped working early on the flight. And so the pilot and the copilot, um, but bud was the Bombardier. And so the pilot and the co-pilot decided, you know, let's press on regardless. They had a mission, they thought we've got 5,000 pounds worth of bombs. We've got a target that we think should be blown up. Uh, let's keep going. And, uh, B seventeens flew in formation that was gradually realized to help protect the planes. And so they, they built layer upon layer, uh, high and low and wide to keep. Uh, there, there are moments able to, uh, fight back when a fighter plane would come at them. Um, but because of the weak engine and because they started off, um, at the tail end of the formation, anyway, they started to fall behind.
Speaker 8 00:38:01 They fell behind a little bit further. There were about a thousand feet below the formation. And so they were easy pickings for, you know, a fighter plane is designed to take advantage of these things. And they, they started to blast away at, uh, the plane. Um, the, the pilot and the copilot took them into the target. Bud was ready and dropped the bombs. Um, and, uh, all around the plane, the other, uh, fliers were blasting away with 50 caliber machine guns. Um, and, you know, maybe they got a few hits in her soul, but we don't know that, but, uh, little by little, the fighters, you know, just ripped them apart. Um, tore open the, the lines that were filled with hydraulic fluid and oxygen. And all of a sudden the plane is on fire and it's starting to just fill with smoke and they realized they had to get out.
Speaker 8 00:39:02 So, um, bud and Bob, the radio operator and the co-pilot and the pilot, uh, Harry and Joel were the ones that got out of the play and the other man either were dead before that, or they died in the plane. Um, and, uh, the pilot and the copilot were captured almost immediately. Um, but bud and Bob, Bob, uh, Neil, uh, uh, fell a little bit further away and they gradually met up, uh, the next day. Um, some French people helped them hooked him up and took them through a place where they could heal from their wounds and their burns. And, uh, bud had a very sore leg because he smashed into a fence as he came down in his parachute. Um, they got a little strength together, and then they started to be shifted from one farm to another, from one helper to another. And people started to protect them. And, and, uh, so gradually they tried to find their way back to England and they realized they just weren't going to get across the ocean. It was too dangerous. So they decided to head for the Pyrenees and over the periods.
Speaker 1 00:40:19 I'm going to talk quickly here about, um, so when bud landed in this French, uh, this farmer spot, who is the gentleman that came in, encounter him first, I think it describes in the book how he had like this anti shotgun pointing at him, asked him if he was in America. And now, could you talk about that a little?
Speaker 8 00:40:39 Yeah. Yeah. Um, and his name was Mo was muttering nearby. And, uh, you know, he had a nice little farm in a little village, um, in this lobe area of Brittany, just a little ways inland, uh, from, uh, from the Pacific and, uh, but crashed into his fans and was knocked unconscious. And when he woke up there was Mathur and DIA bot pointing his shotgun at him. And, you know, he probably used it to kill Partridge or whatever, but, uh, you know, it would have been, uh, a defensive weapon at least. Um, and so he S he said, you know, are you a German or an American, uh, cause he wasn't too sure yet. And bud said, you know, I'm an American, you know, I, you know, I hope you'll help me. And, uh, so Matheran, uh, hustle them along, even though Bud's leg was very, very painful.
Speaker 8 00:41:37 He hustled them across the field and, you know, across the rutted, uh, plowed field and took him to his, uh, farm buildings and hit them in a little cart full of Clover. And then he went out and he quickly encountered the math, Indian, uh, two teachers who said, you know, we saw this guy fall, where is he? And then they realized we got to get them out of there. They took them out of the cart and hit him in a hedgerow, a very, very dense, uh, uh, vined hedgerow. And then the Nazis came and started hunting. Uh, they threatened DIA bouts, family. They pointed a Luger at the little girl, Alice. Um, and, uh, they said, we'll kill you off. Uh, well, they didn't do it that day. Um, they came back and they took Matheran and threw him in jail for a couple of nights, beat them up, but they decided, well, they didn't really know for sure that he had helped a flyer. So they let him go. And by then, bud and Bob were gone on their way.
Speaker 1 00:42:45 Yeah. The French farmers, they were taking a serious risk. And I mean, the, the penalty was very, it was well-known to everyone, I think within the village that for aiding the enemy airmen was death. Um, can you talk a little how they're able to avoid getting detected by the Nazis, some of the maneuvers and tactics they used?
Speaker 8 00:43:03 Well, um, but in Bob, as they moved from one place to another, where he hidden sometimes in ditches or in dugouts, or, you know, hidden in the woods, um, sometimes they were hidden in little addicts and, um, um, other little churches, you know, would have little addicts in them. And so the, the French people, farmers and other citizens, they all hated the Nazis worse than anything. They'd, you know, they didn't want to die, but they were willing to die to help the fliers because they knew that the flyers, if they got back could, you know, come back and blow up the Nazis again. Um, so they, they did their best to hide them. Um, and many of them were killed. Um, many of them were found out and, and were murdered. Um, but, uh, enough of them, you know, were willing to take the risk that a lot of flyers made it back.
Speaker 1 00:44:02 And a Bud's fiance, Rosemary was eventually notified of Bud's predicament as, can you talk about how she respond to this news?
Speaker 8 00:44:12 Yes. Well, the first thing that happened, Josh was, uh, immediately after the crash, um, uh, Bud's family. Um, she was, they weren't married yet. Um, but Bud's family got a telegram. They said your son has been shot out of the sky and we don't know where he is. And, and so we, we list him as missing in action, but then, um, by the time they got to where they were going in, in, uh, Spain, uh, they were captured in the word hidden. They were, um, put into a Spanish prison. Um, but, uh, at about six months when they were finally declared killed in action, um, the consulate for the Americans came to the prison, found out who they were and sent a telegram back to the United States. And then at that point, Rosemary was notified by bud. Uh, he got to send a telegram himself and he said, um, I'm on my way back, uh, plan the wedding for a certain date. And of course she just melted with ecstasy because her guy was coming back. Um, and Barbara was the particular author of that moment because, uh, she understood it far better than I could. Um, and, you know, right near the end of the writing of the story, she said, you know, let me, let me add this thing. And she just did, I think a marvelous job of capturing the, the spirit of that moment
Speaker 1 00:45:52 And the other survivor, um, from bloods, from the, from the buds, yeah. That fell from the plane, Bob, Neil, what was he like? And how well did he get along with bud?
Speaker 8 00:46:04 Well, Bob was the radio operator. Um, he was, uh, a really intelligent, sophisticated man in a lot of ways. Um, and they got along okay. During the time that they were, uh, you know, escaping together, they helped each other out. Um, but once you, you know, he was kind of a depressive man, as we understand him, Barbara did contact, um, Bob's son and daughter, and they were marvelously helpful in understanding Bob. And they had more documents for Barbara to put together the story from. Um, and so we know that Bob drank a lot. Um, he had bouts of depression. Uh, he never, well, he, he did marry and he had children, but he, he and Bob were never close after that. They communicated once in a while. Um, but, um, you know, there were, they were kind of distant at the same time. And I think, uh, uh, Bob did not go back to France himself. Um, Bob just, uh, uh, bud let them know that they were going to, and Bob was satisfied to, uh, stay where he lived in Rhode Island. And that was the end of that
Speaker 1 00:47:23 To the best of buds recollection. Um, they stay at 27 families and their six months day. Yes. When you and Barbara did your research into the, into this, were you able to contact many of these families?
Speaker 8 00:47:36 Many of them not 27. And we think it was probably a good deal more than 27. That was how many bud could remember. Um, but other people intersected with them briefly, or, or, you know, maybe he didn't remember that one or this one, but, um, he, he wrote, as soldiers were asked to do, he wrote the story about who had helped them, uh, so that, um, the military could send financial rewards to the people who protected our soldiers and, you know, that was mutually beneficial. Um, but it also created documents that Barbara was able to access the national archives, um, has, you know, bountiful stories of, uh, the French people who helped. And, uh, it doesn't all line up perfectly well, but it's, it's a precious part of our history. And so, um, we did contact several of them and they helped us, uh, put together, uh, relationships with the mayors of these little towns and cities. And the mayors would welcome us into their, um, offices and feed us a Britain cake insider and, uh, uh, take pictures with us. And then we'd be in the local newspapers. This is in our 2017 Odyssey back to follow bud story.
Speaker 1 00:49:02 M my last question for you, I want to talk about, if you could tell a story quick, when bud went back to France, he, uh, he lost his jacket. He was told to leave it behind, to blend in with the population. But when he went back to France, he was able to recover. It was ready to tell that story.
Speaker 8 00:49:20 Yeah. Um, it makes me emotional every time I read it. I hope I can tell you the story, but, um, Martha and deal bought DIA bought, saved his jacket. Um, I don't know what he did with the parachute, but he saved his flight jacket. This was a very heavy, uh, it was actually a modern piece of armor because it was sick and warm and had electrical wires that went into it. Matheran and saved it when Matheran died. His son took over the, the caretaking of the jacket. And then bud met up with his son, Andre, uh, who he had met, um, uh, uh, when he was protected by his dad Matheran and, um, Andre went into the post and came out with the jacket and presented it to Martha. And there was a little crowd of French people who were there to witness this and celebrate this moment. And bud fell to the ground and wept for five minutes. And it was, it was just a glorious moment in his life.
Speaker 1 00:50:26 This has been me talk with Jim about the book he co-authored with his wife Bud's jacket in American flyer, evades, Nazis, and occupied, France. This incredible, true story of James, bud wheelchair and Robert Neal. If it didn't capture in Nazi occupied Europe, Jim, thanks for being on right on radio.
Speaker 0 00:50:44 Thanks for asking me fresh pleasure
Speaker 1 00:50:45 To talk. And now this
Speaker 2 00:51:02 You're listening to right on radio and cafe 90.3 FM and streaming live on the
[email protected]. I'd like to thank our special guests tonight, Maureen Gibbon and Jim wojak plus all our listeners without your support and donations cafe, I would not be possible. You can find more news and info about right and radio at cafe.org/right and radio. Plus listen to recent episodes on our podcast. You've invited on Spotify, apple podcasts, Google podcasts, basically, wherever you get podcasts,
