Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:01 Right on radio streaming live on the web Mandy Harvey tonight on right on radio. Liz talks with New York times bestselling and Emmy award winning author, Matt Goldman about the latest standalone adventure featuring private detective mills Shapiro in dad, West. And I believe old in the last part of our show, Annie sneaks with Kristen Garmin about her work on translating the tree and the vine by Dola Deion first published in 1954 and the Netherlands Dole day owns the tree and the vine was a groundbreaking work. It is time for its Frank and sensitive depiction of the love between two women now available in a new translation, all of this and more so stay tuned to write on radio. <inaudible> Matt, are we there? Okay, great.
Speaker 1 00:01:03 Are we recording this or is it live okay. We're live.
Speaker 0 00:01:09 Why was, why was, can be well dead West? Why don't you give me a little bit of the story and give us some fill in on what's happened to Nile Shapiro. Since the last time we met him,
Speaker 1 00:01:23 Well, this is the fourth book and the Neal Shapiro private detective series. He, uh, I don't want to give too much away because some things happened between books three and four, but the big difference in this book is the first three books all happen in Minnesota. In this fourth book, Nils is hired by a elderly wealthy couple who live on summit Avenue in st. Paul. Their grandson has just, excuse me, inherited his trust fund and move to Hollywood. And they're worried he's blowing his millions investing in show business, and they send nails out there to find out what's going on. And so this, you know, I I've written television a lot. Uh, I've spent a huge part of my adult life in Los Angeles. I always felt like an outsider. I always felt like a Minnesota in there who just happened to be visiting. And so I really used the opportunity in this book to show Los Angeles and show business to a Midwesterner. Who's never seen it before and hear it from his point of view, uh, to hear his take on this strange land and the strange business.
Speaker 0 00:02:44 Um, before we get into the stories, the publicity said that this was a standalone, but it feels more like it's in the series. Uh,
Speaker 1 00:02:53 Well, the publisher does that because they want, because the books are meant to stand on their own. You don't have to read the first three to read this one. Any backstory you need to know is covered in the text of the book. And so that's, excuse me, that's why they do that. Yeah, but it is, it is the fourth in a series.
Speaker 0 00:03:15 Would you call it or, I mean, they call it Duar, but I think it's kind of a hybrid. It's partly Nora and partly something else. How do you feel about that?
Speaker 1 00:03:24 Yeah, I, you know, I don't like to categorize it. Um, my books are not overly, dark and overly violent, but they're certainly not cozy mysteries either. So, um, so they're, they just are what they are. I think it's more about the characters and, and I'll let other people put labels on them.
Speaker 0 00:03:47 Uh, the characters are, are wonderful and you've really, especially Jamison you've really expanded on his character and, and brought him kinda to the fore. So that, I mean, everybody in the book likes him and I like him too.
Speaker 1 00:04:00 Yeah. Yeah. Everyone's favorite Jamison. Uh, we met in the second book, uh, when Nils gets injured, it was a life threatening injury. Um, Jamison, uh, is hired by Nils ex wife to be Neil's personal nurse. Uh, he's a, he's an emergency room nurse practitioner and he leaves the hospital for a couple of weeks to tend to nails. And we really get to know this guy. He is a physically and personal personality wise, a large man. And he, he played professional football in Canada and the Canadian football league, but he played his college ball at UCLA. So he knows Los Angeles. And, and so that's why Neil's takes him out there. In addition to another reason that Jamison has suffered a personal tragedy and, and has had a hard time bouncing back from it. So Nils feels the trip to LA may be good for him.
Speaker 0 00:05:01 And, uh, from your experience, why don't you talk a little bit about LA and the entertainment business? You talked some about it in the book, so I don't want you to feel like you have to do any spoilers, but it would be interesting to know about your personal, uh, experiences.
Speaker 1 00:05:18 Well, you know, I went to the university of Minnesota. I started doing standup comedy while I was still in school and then did it professionally here for about a year. And I moved to LA when I was 24. Um, and it is a, it's a completely different world in so many ways. Good and bad. I mean, there's great things that can happen in Los Angeles that probably won't happen here, uh, or in most parts of the country. Uh, uh, one's opportunity to get from point a to point B can be a fairly structured process. And in Los Angeles, that's just not true. It is the wild West and mills talks about it that way in the book, um, that those are the, that's the good side of it. The Los Angeles is a place that attracts the best and the worst people from everywhere in the world.
Speaker 1 00:06:19 So you get this real mix. Um, but the stereotype of sleazy show business and show business want to be people's does exist. It's just not the whole picture. Um, there's a lot of wonderful people out there, uh, who are working in show business, um, and everybody deserves a chance to tell their story and that can happen out there. Uh, but, but everything from the traffic to cars, just starting on fire on the side of the road and the way the light changes there, it's very different from here. So, and show business is a business that is different from any other, because there's so much money being thrown around. And I know that happens in other businesses, but nobody really understands what makes something work or not work. So it's an incredibly wasteful process and it's a process where personality can win the day, uh, as opposed to substance
Speaker 0 00:07:23 Talk about, uh, well, let's put it this way. You're a very respected and accomplished author, both in your books and also NTV. Uh, I feel like talking a little bit about, uh, you worked on Seinfeld and Ellen and a couple of other things and, uh, you've won an Emmy, I assume for Seinfeld, although it could be for something else,
Speaker 1 00:07:43 It was for something else, but yeah.
Speaker 0 00:07:45 And, uh, yeah, just talk some about that, about, about that life that you lived
Speaker 1 00:07:52 Well, they're, they're, they're different in a number of ways. Um, in a matter of fact, I'm B you know, uh, the cover 19 and the, and the shelter in place has actually, uh, I feel guilty saying this created an opportunity for me to work in television and television, because I don't have to go to LA. So I was asked to write on a new show, which I've been doing the last couple months, where I zoom into a writer's room every day and everybody's zooming into it. So I'm not the odd person out. Um, it's a really different process. There are a lot of cooks in the kitchen, and there are a lot of masters to serve studios and networks, sometimes stars. Um, and it's not a bad or a good process. It's just different. And, um, it's a more lucrative place than the book for most people, not for J K Rowling or Stephen King, but for most authors.
Speaker 1 00:09:01 And, um, but sitting in a, with a sitting around a table or on a zoom call with 10 other people every day is a much different process than sitting with your own thoughts and writing a book. I think my personality is more suited toward the book side of it, but, but TV can be an exciting and fun place and things happen quickly. Um, I just signed a contract for a new book. That's coming out in two years. That's a long time, but the stuff we're talking about in TV right now today, we will be shooting in six weeks, um, virus permitting. So go ahead.
Speaker 0 00:09:48 Is it a comedy or serious, or
Speaker 1 00:09:50 It is a comedy which the last couple of shows I've worked on were dramas. And I wasn't looking to go back onto a comedy, but I got a call from some people I worked with on a previous show. And, um, and you know, it's fun being in a room or virtual room with comedy writers. It's just, uh, a lot of laughs,
Speaker 0 00:10:14 A lot of, uh, companionship as opposed to, uh, writing a book. Uh, I find it for myself, not lonely, but an alone process, like a lone Wolf kind of a thing.
Speaker 1 00:10:27 It is very much, I am quite introverted, so I don't mind that process. Um, but it is nice, especially during the pandemic to be able to connect with some people. Um, cause it's hard, it's hard for everybody. It's hard to be mentally and physically in your house all day, even with the people you really love. It's hard for everybody. So this was a nice break, um, and change of pace.
Speaker 0 00:10:56 Now, is there another Neil street PIRO book and the horizon, or
Speaker 1 00:11:00 There is not at the moment, there is a short story that will be published in Ellery queen mystery magazine. Uh, I know I'm going to write a book or two, that's not Nils, but I would love to come back to, to this character and these, this world and these characters. I do know that I am, uh, emotionally attached to these characters in these stories because it was my really lifelong dream to be a novelist and these books made it happen. So, so, uh, because it's pie, there'll be some people who aren't interested in reading about that. And, and so I'm going to write some other books. I've started one that will be published in two, um, that, that will just open things up for, for readers.
Speaker 0 00:11:58 Will it still be a mystery style novel or something?
Speaker 1 00:12:02 You're not a private detective, but it will have a mystery in it. A, uh, uh, uh, Pat a mystery from the past and a present day mystery, but more of a family story. Okay. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:12:18 I think we talked some last time we, uh, met, but I think we'd probably have newer listeners as well. I was curious, uh, again about, uh, when you're writing for TV, you, you can't afford to have writer's block. Uh, and I wonder if you ever have it when you're writing on your own or if, if your TV experience kind of informs your writing process in your, uh, personal alone experience.
Speaker 1 00:12:46 Yeah, it definitely does. I mean, that's, that's where I learned a lot about writing character and story and series architecture, um, developing character relationships. Yeah. When you have a bad day in TV, usually there's somebody else sitting around the table who picks you up when you're having a bad day writing a book. Sometimes I used to, when I was younger, get quite frustrated with that, um, and really hit my head against the wall. But some days you just got to know that you're having a hard time cause something in the story is not right and you can't see it in that moment. And sometimes it's just better to take a walk around the Lake or go out with the dogs or, or watch the twins or whatever it is. And, and the answer will come if you're not pressed up hard against a deadline, um, you can afford to do that. And I'm usually ahead on my deadlines. So that leaves room for me to have a day like that. But when you have a day like that, it's also telling you something that if you're blocked, it's, it's, it's for a reason something's not right. And you need to figure out what that is and, and get your characters and your story back on the right track.
Speaker 0 00:14:13 Now, you said you really, uh, like the characters in this series. Um, so, um,
Speaker 1 00:14:23 Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:14:24 What, how hard is it to leave them behind for a while? Is it to, is it something that is, uh, kind of difficult or are you setting them aside for the time being to come back to them? Or how does that work?
Speaker 1 00:14:37 Well, I hope it's to come back to them. I mean, this, I wrote this book in a way that if it is the last nails book, I'm okay with it ending this way. Um, but I would like to come back, I mean, especially with what's going on in the last several months here, um, you know, um, there's a character in the book who's very high up in the Minneapolis police department. Uh, she is a woman of color she's kind of slotted for the top job and with everything that's changing in Minneapolis and in the police department in the city, uh, I would like to explore that
Speaker 0 00:15:24 That would be a really, uh, cause what I thought is kind of what you just said. I thought, well, uh, this could be the end of the series or it could be an opening for another book. It could be either one. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:15:36 Yeah. Um, and as you know, that it really, this book is in the pie genre, but the last part of it is really not in the tropes of, of what's usually done in crime fiction and detective fiction. So it really gets in a personal place for Nils. And, and so if it does move forward, I liked doing it off that springboard.
Speaker 0 00:16:06 Well, he changes a lot between the third and fourth book and then he, he confronts some things in the fourth book about who he's going to be and how it's going to work for him upcoming, the changes that he's gone through. Do you want to talk something about that? No,
Speaker 1 00:16:22 Too much away, but he really, because of his kind of personal code, um, puts himself in danger. And for the first time in his life, there's a lot more at stake. He has a child. Um, he has the person who is going to spend the rest of his life with, and it's not just him anymore. And, and so it really changes things for him. Uh, and he has to face that head on, uh, about who he is and who he can be and, and how can he be true to himself and a whole person and bring that into those relationships. So, um, so I really would like to move forward for that reason. I know I, I will be able to move forward if I want to. Um, the other thing is, you know, a lot of people ask me why there's no shows like Rockford files on anymore.
Speaker 1 00:17:25 Um, or even a show like heart-to-heart or, or, but the old pie shows. And I've always said that, I think that those great shows really came out of Vietnam and Watergate when there was this great distrust of authority. And so the police were not looked up to so much then, but the private who is kind of this lone Wolf and counterculture figure was more of a hero than, and then after nine 11, I think that really went away and everybody jumped back onto this side of authority. And, and, but now I think things are turning back again. And so I I'd like nails to be there for that.
Speaker 0 00:18:13 They all moved him out to Portland then.
Speaker 1 00:18:16 Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:18:17 That, uh, that really makes a lot of sense. Uh, speaking of which I'm, I'm wondering if there is possibility of a movie or a TV show, or have you thought about that?
Speaker 1 00:18:30 Yeah. There's, there's been some talk about TV for nails. Um, and, and I sure would like to see that happen. I mean, I'm often asked, do I want it to be a TV show? And my answer is if I had really wanted it to be a TV show, I would have written it as that. Um, but the reason I do want it to be a TV show because it will increase exposure. Yeah. Reach a lot more people. Yeah. It'll, it'll make more people aware of the character and bring more people to the books.
Speaker 0 00:19:02 <inaudible> kind of like a Dexter.
Speaker 1 00:19:05 That was very much like Dexter. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:19:08 That was the book first. So excellent, excellent series of books. And then it became a TV show.
Speaker 1 00:19:13 Yeah. Jeff Linley, I think is the author. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:19:15 Yes. So I would like to see Neil's that way. I, the characters again, I just love the characters in this book. They are fun to read about. And also they bring out a lot of, uh, emotional resonance, you know, you like them and you are concerned about them. You like what's happening, how they're responding to what happens and what's doing well. We're almost out of time. Um, let me think, what else do I want to know? Uh, well, you've talked a little bit about what's next, but, uh, uh, what do you feel like on the grand scheme of your, your life that puts into your writing? Do you, do you have feelings? Are you staying in Minneapolis? Are you thinking about going back to LA what's your
Speaker 1 00:20:04 No. Uh, I signed down to this television show. Everybody understood. I would, it was for pre production. And when they start meeting in person, then I will, I will be done working on it. Um, definitely staying in Minneapolis. Uh, I'm writing, uh, dive books in the pipeline. Um, I'm, I'm enjoying being here very much and, and writing novels, this, this is where I belong. This is where I'll be in dead. West, comes out Tuesday, August 4th, and it'll be available everywhere. And, um, and if you have any, if anybody wants to get a signed book or anything, um, that you can follow me on Facebook or on my website and all those places will be posted all those events, I'll do be doing some more virtual events
Speaker 0 00:21:04 And you have, you're doing something isn't a virtual or in person. It is it once upon a crime next Tuesday. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:21:09 It's virtual. Everything's virtual. Uh, once upon a crime in Minneapolis is Tuesday subtext books with David House. Right. Another, it was a wonderful author. Uh, I think we're doing that. I think August 5th, but that'll all be up on my website soon, or you can check sub textbooks. Um, so, uh, and then there'll be some other, it's weird. I'm doing things all over the country, but I'm really only doing them from my house.
Speaker 0 00:21:42 So is that a cat behind you? That is a dog. Oh, it's a dog. Okay.
Speaker 1 00:21:46 Yeah. Um, there's two dogs in this room right now.
Speaker 0 00:21:50 Okay, good. They're not barking.
Speaker 1 00:21:53 Yeah. They're not barking. If someone knocks on the door, it'll be different story.
Speaker 0 00:21:57 What is your website? What's the, yeah.
Speaker 1 00:21:59 It's Matt goldman.com. Just my name. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:22:03 Okay. I guess I'll, I'll finish up with asking you about how you, I hope you're excited about these wonderful blurbs that you're getting from, like ACE Atkins and Harlan Coben and yeah.
Speaker 1 00:22:15 Yeah. They're great. And in the book is received starred reviews and publishers weekly and, and Booklist so it's nice. Yeah. Yeah. I I'm quite honored by all of it and I feel lucky.
Speaker 0 00:22:28 Yeah. Lee child said he wants more of Neal Shapiro. Yeah. That's pretty intense recognition. Well, that's about it. Thanks a lot for joining us. It was nice to see you. We're on zoom for people that are out in radio.
Speaker 1 00:22:44 Thank you for having me back, Liz. I appreciate it. Yeah,
Speaker 0 00:22:47 Yeah. Yeah. Well, I will let you go and we'll move on to the, um, calendar. Thanks a lot. Thanks Liz. Talk to you soon.
Speaker 1 00:22:57 Bye bye.
Speaker 2 00:22:59 The tree and the vine by Dola de young as translated from the Dutch by Kristin Garmin, the tree and the vine is a novel detailing. The story of two young women in Amsterdam, who are torn between friendship and desire and conflicts of behavior and taboo. In the years, leading up to the Nazi occupation of Amsterdam. Erika is a reckless young journalist and Bayer is a reserved secretary and the, to undergo a whole range of emotions as they attempt to grapple with what they mean to each other, um, and how they fit in, in the larger world. Um, it's a great read and I'm excited to discuss it with you. Kristin. Welcome the station. Hi.
Speaker 3 00:23:46 Hi. Thanks so much for having me. Um, could you start us off today by sharing a portion of the book considered important? Yeah. I'd love to I'll we'll just jump right into it. Erica was gone until the end of August. She later confessed to me that she'd been forced to return to Amsterdam. After Judy had rushed home to America due to the threat of war. I didn't hear anything from her the entire time she was away. I checked the mailbox three times a day for a letter or even a postcard in the morning. I'd listened for the rifle of the post. And when my inner turmoil got the best of me around lunchtime, I'd even go home to check the mid day delivery as well. Then in the evening, I'd find myself watching out the window for the mailman as the international crisis escalated and fierce of a German invasion grew.
Speaker 3 00:24:37 So did my concern for Erica, the crisis actually served as an excuse for my distress and made it possible for me to talk about Erica's absence with my friends and colleagues at work. To be honest though, the world around me could have gone up in flames and I still would have been more worried about the conflict between Erica and me. I was consumed by my own troubles. It's always been that way. Isn't it or offers a way out for people. Who've been backed into a corner who no longer see any salvation or future for themselves and who quietly hope for an external tragedy to come along and put an end to the unbearable situation. They found themselves in that year. The world was pushed to the brink of collapse, but I hardly thought about the atrocious events happening in Spain, Austria, Munich, and Daysha. I was running in circles around my own experiences and problems like a horse and a ring blinders preventing me from seeing anything other than Erica in front of me.
Speaker 3 00:25:36 Well, I was unable unworthy of catching up to her. Finally, I had an outlet for my tormented thoughts. I use the international crisis as a cover to tell anyone I knew about my concern for Erica. I even went so far in myself delusion as to call the paper where she worked. Her boss advised me to contact the console in nice. He even offered to send a telegram himself. Perhaps they'd know whether Erica had been admitted to a hospital. When the call for general mobilization on August came until August 29th. I was on the brink of a nervous breakdown, but by one o'clock the next afternoon afternoon, Erica was standing in front of me. She'd come home by plane and her enthusiastic report to for first flight neutralize, the conflict between us. Pretty soon, she was running down the stairs to go to work. All of a sudden she was in a hurry to get to the office on time.
Speaker 3 00:26:30 A few minutes later, when I was walking along the canal to the tram stop, I saw her riding her bike around the corner as if she'd never been away that evening, I made dinner as always, while she sat there and said, I acted like an animal Bayer, but there was nothing I could do about it. It was all too heavenly. Forget it if you can. And if you can't then let me have it right now. Come on, give it to me. But whatever you do, don't keep looking at me with those sad puppy eyes. That was that as far as she was concerned, I devoured my food, told her I had an appointment and left the house. As soon as the dishes were done, I wandered through the old town until midnight. And when I finally came home, I'd seemingly won the battle with myself.
Speaker 3 00:27:15 I can now admit that I was so happy to have Erica back that the whole inner struggle had been an act, a comedy I'd performed for myself that attempt to write a suitable, ending to the drama. Our lives went back to normal, except that thick envelopes from America arrived several times a week. And Erica was spending a lot of time writing letters that fall. She had no trouble staying busy. Maybe she lived off the vestiges of her satisfying summer. Maybe all the excitement and restlessness provided a distraction from the tense political situation. There was so much going on at home and abroad that her boss was forced to make use of Erica's skills. She often worked over time and by October, she was working the night shift. She came home increasingly wound up with all kinds of crazy stories. And the first time since I'd known her, she had an outspoken opinion about fascism and the Nazis true to form.
Speaker 3 00:28:09 She jumped to extremes and rattled our apartment with her fiery speeches. There was no limit to her hate for the Germans and ma the closest opponent within her reach bore the brunt of it, get a load of this Bayer, that stupid woman. It's unbelievable. She says that Hitler is going to save Europe. You should hear rants about the Jews. It's because pause one of them that I ever tell you that it's true. I'm half Jewish, but anyway, maybe that's not even it though. She'd be more than happy to see him drop dead. She's stupid Bayer and disappointed with her life. Exactly the kind of person that gets sucked into all that stuff. My mother of all people. And then she closed with, she's not welcome in this house anymore. Remember that?
Speaker 3 00:28:57 I love that choice of passage. I think it perfectly exemplifies why I wanted to have you on this show. First of all, the interpersonal aspect of it feels so timeless Bay is stress about Erica, the way she seems to have both like a profound, protective instinct, but also a crush on her. It's a pretty common feeling that I think most people have felt and kept very private at some point, but also it's such a great exemplifyor of the world war II era in the 20th century, but at the same time that international strife and focus on marginalized groups, but also needing to be present in your daily life is also something
Speaker 4 00:29:42 That continues to go on today. Um, to hear about BEYA worrying about Erica a lot in a more personal way than the international conflict, but also kind of feeling like she can use worrying about Erica as a way to process that international conflict. Um, something I wanted to point out to the readers. This book has been translated into English before, um, helped you Kristin, decide to create a new translation of this book. Um, and what characteristics did you want your new translation to bring to the table that the previous translation did not?
Speaker 3 00:30:18 So the book came out, it was published in 1954 in the Netherlands. And when it came out, Dolan's young, a little bit of background on Tola de young. She is a Dutch author, um, who actually spent most of her adult life living in New York city in the United States. This was her second novel. It came out in 1954 and Amsterdam. And when her editor, her Dutch editor first got her hands on the manuscript, they said it was scandalous that it was, um, they couldn't publish it. And it was really thanks to the fact that Dola had some literary friends in high places, including, uh, Maxwell Perkins, the famous editor of F Scott Fitzgerald, and many others, as well as via sniper, Paul Marnix Tyson who kind of pushed her work and said, no, this is a very sensitive work. It, it conveys, it was even via snipe Paul who said that it conveys a very delicate matter.
Speaker 3 00:31:14 The Hebrew Hebrew, who referred to it as like a delicate issue or a delicate matter with such sensitivity, um, and that it was kind of radical for the time is not only in the sense that, um, it, it talks about sexual desire between two women as, as a, as a theme though. It's not really, um, explicit in any way, uh, in terms of, uh, the sexual relationship between the two characters, but it also goes into the woman's psyche and the woman's emotions, which in the 1950s was already a fairly radical act for, for a female writer. The first translation came out in 1961 in English, um, by a translator by the name of Elona Kinzer. And that was the same translation that was republished in the 1990s by the feminist press. And in the 1990s, that translation was very much marketed, kind of by a niche press.
Speaker 3 00:32:08 Um, as a work of feminist literature, transit books, they're a wonderful, amazing people. Um, they approached me actually to commission this, um, new translation, and I think they felt that the old translation, the original translation, same, same as I did that. It was, um, just a little bit old fashioned. And, um, it didn't quite capture the Dole. This writing is extremely modern. I mean, her sentences are very clean and, um, they move very quickly and they're kind of unfettered by archaic forms and structures. And, um, you didn't really get that in the previous, uh, translation. So, uh, it was just a good opportunity. The book had been recently republished in the Netherlands and it was a good opportunity to try to do it justice in a new way, uh, in English,
Speaker 4 00:32:57 What you were saying about kind of the way the book feels very radical for its time. There's clearly this forbid and attraction, Erica is relatively, she's kind of what one would call Bush more of a masculine style and woman, but at the same time, their relationship, isn't like some hot, heavy thing. They very much, they take care of each other. Um, especially BEYA likes to do a lot of caretaking for Erica. I feel like it's kind of like, it's a, it's a very soft and tender love story despite also being a forbidden love story. And I think that that's something that's really, that really sets this apart from other love stories.
Speaker 3 00:33:41 I think it's, yeah, it's some people, a lot of fear. You're not the first person to characterize it as a love story. And I think in some ways it is, but it also, isn't, it's very much a story of a love that that couldn't be, um, it wasn't possible, uh, because of the social restrictions at the time. And yeah, so that's an interesting angle too. Yeah,
Speaker 4 00:34:03 It's interesting because it's such a, especially, I don't want to spoil the ending for anyone, but it's like, I feel like it's a love story, even though it's a failed love story in the sense that the characters don't really end up together and something that I wanted to discuss in terms of the characters, not being able to end up together, both because of social conventions and because of emotional differences and personal needs differences is the way that even though you've brought the language up to date in terms of being emotionally vulnerable and the book feels very visceral and present, but, um, there's still distinctly old fashioned euphemisms in the books such as like a same-sex love and interest is referred to as a friend or the words lesbianism or queerness, or never used. Um, instead phrases like the way I am are used. And I was wondering if you ever considered modernizing those or if that would have felt to untrue to the historical context of the, the occurrences of this story.
Speaker 3 00:35:10 Yeah, it's an interesting question. Um, I, I didn't, I, as a translator, I don't feel like I modernized the book at all. The book was already very modern and, um, the use of euphemisms for, for queerness or for, for lesbianism or homosexuality is also very much a product of the time period, um, where the story takes place in the year before world war II broke out in Europe. And at the time the vocabulary that we have today to, to talk about homosexual desire or to talk about queerness simply didn't exist, or if it did exist, it wasn't certainly wasn't in, uh, you know, day to day use. So I didn't consider modernizing those terms at all, because that would have felt untrue to the, to the work and to the time period in which it was written. Um, yeah, it didn't really feel necessary. Um, but one thing that's just on an interesting side note.
Speaker 3 00:36:10 Um, one of the, one of the first people I talked to about this book was actually my Dutch father-in-law. He was born, uh, in Rotterdam at the end of the war. He's, you know, a pretty liberal thinking person and avid reader. Um, I gave him this, the Dutch version of this book and he read it. And one of the first things he said was, I don't, I don't see what all the fuss is about. He, he really didn't pick up on the sexual tension between the two characters. And that was really shocking to me that, that didn't sit, that didn't stand out to him and, and he saw it more as a story of an intense female friendship. Um, but I think that reading, and of course remembering, you know, his, um, you know, he's from a different generation and, and, and from a bit of a different perspective, but I think that speaks to what you're saying about these, this use of old fashioned euphemisms that, um, they're they're, and in the time they were used people who would pick up on them will pick up on them and people who, people who wouldn't.
Speaker 3 00:37:12 Uh won't and, um, yeah, I think that's, that says something about, uh, about the work itself,
Speaker 4 00:37:20 Definitely a book that contains extra levels for the more emotionally attuned reader or the more culturally attuned reader. Um, yeah. Another question kind of delving into the interpersonal relationship between the two women. In many ways, our protagonists BEYA is more concerned with keeping up appearances than Erica. Um, maintaining that normalcy, they ask more feminine and more private, whereas Erica is more openly Butch or masculine. She's engaged in more progressive politics when she's politically involved. Um, she spends time in public and even travels a little with women who it's clear to Bayer or her love interests, and BIA does none of those things expresses some confusion and some concern when Erica does, but still maintains this fixation on Erica. And as I read, it seemed more and more to me like Bay as deliberate distance from lesbian ism is not just an act of public deception and kind of maintaining that public coding of I'm.
Speaker 4 00:38:25 I'm not, I'm a friend quote unquote, um, but also an act of self deception. And like, as the book went on base, seem to be beginning to admit her such as when the war is heating up. And his reaction is, uh, unsurprisingly, my initial reaction to the invasion was focused entirely on Erica, but she also continues to stay close to Erica and welcoming Erica back into her life without confessing her feelings. Do you think that this novel is Bayer coming to terms with her feelings? Or do you think that she is keeping Erica close, but sinking into increasing self deception as she does it?
Speaker 3 00:39:06 Yeah, it's an interesting question. The two protagonists, Erica and Bayer are complete opposites in terms of personality and, you know, Erica is very much the extrovert. Um, she is, I don't, I'm not sure that she, I wouldn't, I wouldn't necessarily describe her as out a couple, but she is definitely more, you, you noticed based on her appearance that she dresses more masculine, she does hang out with women who are presumably loves love interests in public she's she's loud. She can be obnoxious. She can be, you know, over the top. And BEYA is a much more of the kind of conventional a woman from the time period. Um, she's following the, what size of society expects of her. She works as a secretary. She fulfills the domestic expectations, um, that, you know, society would have had for, uh, at the time. But at the same time, she's confronted with these feelings of desire for, for her roommate, Erica, and this just kind of nagging desire to be close to her.
Speaker 3 00:40:13 And she can't quite put her finger on why throughout the novel and eventually as the story progresses, um, that becomes clear to her that she has feelings that don't quite feel okay, or that might feel a bit taboo to her. Uh, but she has those feelings, uh, for Erica. But do I think she's coming to terms with her feelings throughout the novel as the story is being told? I'm not sure I do agree with you that she might be all of her efforts and nagging desire to save her friend could just be her sinking into her own self deception. But we do see in the story, the narrator is an older, wiser Bayer looking back on, on, on what happened between her and her friend. And I think that voice that we hear from the narrator is very much an older Bayer that has come to terms with who she was and who she is and, and what she was feeling at the time. So, yeah, I think, I think maybe to answer your question, it's a little bit of both.
Speaker 4 00:41:17 It's so delightful to have this conversation with you because it's so clear that you've really sat with the characters and with the emotions that they're unpacking and with both their self-perceptions. And I just wanted to say that I really admire that intimacy that you have with that story. And this is, and to thank you for bringing that,
Speaker 3 00:41:35 I think as a translator, you know, I mean, no one will read a book closer than a, than a translator. So you, you really live with these characters, you live with the language. Um, and unfortunately, you know, Dilla D young is no longer with us, but I would have loved to have talked to her more and asked her more about, about these characters.
Speaker 4 00:41:52 Yeah. She seems like an absolutely fascinating and creator, continuing to talk about the emotional register of this book towards the end of the book, Dolly who's a former friend of Erica's potentially 11 trust. Um, just to clarify that for folks who haven't read the book yet, um, Dolly asks BEYA why don't you just let her go referring to Erica? Uh, what do you want from her? Uh, do you think Baya gets some deeper satisfaction from providing a familial sort of care to Erica? Or do you think she just doesn't really know what she wants and just is trying to be present?
Speaker 3 00:42:28 I think, I think she doesn't know what she wants. Uh, I think, I think you're, yeah, you're right about that, that she providing for, for Bayer as, um, a bit more of a conventional woman, um, providing care is the closest kind of the only means she has to get close to Erica, which is someone that she really desires, uh, to be close to. And by trying to take care of her, by trying to save her from herself and her own self destructive behavior, um, she's, you know, she's able to, to keep Erica close, but at the same time, I think, I think she kind of hates herself for, for constantly providing this care for her friend. Um, some of Erica's behavior is extremely frustrating and inexplainable and Bay wants to see herself as a kind of an independent woman that can, um, be independent or whatever, but she, um, but she also kind of can't stop herself from, from worrying about Erica and trying to take care of, uh, of Erica. So I think caregiving is kind of her only option.
Speaker 4 00:43:36 Yeah. I don't know if I'm supposed to admit this here sitting in 2020, but I think that there's a way that people today who are more, more feminine are trained to provide caretaking as a way to become close to people or provide a value add to people's life, to try to like, be very present for someone to try to provide things for someone, um, as a way to bring yourself up in that person's esteem or to try to provide for that person. And that's something that I think is interesting that I was reading that in both finding Bay, as behavior, very antiquated, but simultaneously finding it kind of relatable in some way.
Speaker 3 00:44:16 I think I've heard that from several of the female friends of mine, who've read the book that they, you feel. And I felt it myself too, sometimes that you feel a little bit of Erica and a little bit of faith in yourself.
Speaker 4 00:44:27 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that us nicely into one of the more prominent moments in the book, at least in my reading of it. And of course you may feel differently for Erica, um, is that when the Nazi Germans began to invade Holland, um, which is, as we've mentioned where Erica and BEYA reside for the majority of this book, uh, Erica becomes withdrawn, becomes homebound. And that feels very different than the way she'd been behaving prior in the book. She's and that just watching that transition, um, felt like a big turning point for Erica. And I was wondering if you wanted to unpack that turning point and why that particular, that particular strike was the thing that got Erica more permanently homebound, whereas before it seemed more like she was rallying against things.
Speaker 3 00:45:23 Yeah. Well, let me just say one of, one of the things that really fascinates me about this story. And I said it while I was working on it, um, last year and I still feel that way is that it's, um, it's a story that the plot is very much driven by the onset of world war II, but it's not about the boar at all. So you have this historical backdrop of the Nazis invaded Amsterdam. Um, the it's becoming increasingly clear that, uh, Amsterdam is no longer safe for Jewish people. Uh, and at the same time, there's this drama of very personal and drama unfolding between these two, um, female friends. And, um, uh, the war is kind of driving this intensity, but the war is not the main, um, the main issue in the plot. I think that Erica Erica is, uh, four as kind of proud and, uh, you know, loud and extroverted as she seems.
Speaker 3 00:46:17 I think she's struggling with so many things. And at the point in the story, when the Nazis, uh, invade, which was also, um, this extract that I read at the beginning of our, uh, of our interview, Erica, is dealing with rejection from her own mother, dealing with the fact that she is part Jewish, which we later find out in the book that she's actually, uh, not part Jewish, which I've come back to that in just a second. She's dealing with her boss who has become this crazy Nazi, but who also has a romantic interest in her that she doesn't know how to deal with the loss of her, uh, travel companion, Judy, the American, and then now this kind of growing openness with BEYA about her sexuality, that's, that's coming up in the background. Um, and I think all of these things just become so overwhelming at the point of the Nazi invasion that she just can't take it.
Speaker 3 00:47:07 And she takes refuge in her own, in her own room. And she doesn't want to talk to her roommate BEYA and I think that's, what's going on there. Uh, what's interesting though, is the change that also occurs in area, uh, at this time of the Nazi invasion, uh, after the Nazis invade Bay, uh, becomes increasingly obsessed with getting Eric cause mother ma she's all throughout the story to prove that Eric has legal father who was technically Jewish, really wasn't her father. So in a moment of confidence in the story Erica's mother confesses to BEYA that she, that Erica is actually the illegitimate child of a, of a man who was not Jewish and kind of an interesting historical detail at the, at the time was that under honks Meyer, who was, um, a German lawyer who was serving, uh, as in the rights commissioner's office in the Netherlands, uh, at the beginning of the war.
Speaker 3 00:48:00 And he's kind of a controversial figure. He's often credited for helping to save a lot of Jews, but then there's also some, uh, who believed that he also helped to send many chews into, um, concentration camps, but he had this kind of leniency towards anyone who was technically Jewish on paper, but who could prove that they were only part Jewish. So this is what's going on. This is why, uh, Bay is so interested in making sure that, um, my admits to the fact that Eric, his father, wasn't really Jewish because I think she knows that she could have potentially saved Erica, um, from her, from her fate. And this gives her a way, this kind of a way for, for Bay to channel her, uh, intensive care giving and her, her need to protect Erica and be close to her, um, into this, uh, into this historical context.
Speaker 4 00:48:54 I think it's interesting that that was kind of Bay as big transgressive moment in the book. Like Bez seems like she's a very by the rules kind of lady, but by really prying into Eric as backstory, it's interesting because she never quite parses out her feelings for Erica while they're still in contact, but she's still able to like go against the way she usually behaves in such a prominent way by really praying and praying on this thing. That's very societaly taboo, um, which is of course, paternity and children inside or outside marriage kind of Bayer who's usually home is going out and pushing the, pushing the envelope. And Erica, who's usually out in the world doing as she pleases his home, very overwhelmed by everything that's going on. Um, so I thought that was a really fascinating dynamic and I appreciate you providing some historical context. I also just wanted to ask kind of, as we start to wrap things up, uh, what do you hope readers leave this book with?
Speaker 3 00:49:59 Well, first and foremost, I think, uh, I want read, I want readers. I want there to be a rediscovery of Dola D Young's work as she was a magnificent writer, a prominent thinker and her work was very much under appreciated. And I think in, in her time, there's also a part of me. I, I love history, so I I'm, I'm very drawn to the historical side of this book as well. And one of the things I love about this book is that it shows a very complex human experience that was unfolding, uh, against the historical backdrop that we are familiar with what was going on in world war II. But, um, we don't often think about the, kind of the complex human stories, um, that were going on, uh, as that was all happening. And then the other thing that I, I think, and it's kind of, as I mentioned to me in my afterword to the book that I, that I want people to take from this book is to really think about the complexity of women's relationships. I think thinking about the complexity of there for us as women, thinking about the complexity of relationships we have
Speaker 4 00:51:01 With friends, with lovers, with our mothers, with the women in our,
Speaker 3 00:51:06 And, you know, w w the women's women's sexuality is not, and has never been a simple matter. And I think this book really represents that and reminds us of that, especially given the historical context in which it was written.
Speaker 4 00:51:21 Well, thank you so much. I really, really am so grateful for having had you on the show, Kristin so much for having me.
