Speaker 1 00:00:07 You're listening to right on radio on cafe 90.3 FM and streaming live on the
[email protected]. I'm Josh Weber. And tonight on, right on radio, Dave FEDEC talks with Farah, Jasmine Griffin, the author of read until you understand the profound wisdom of black life and literature and inquiry into the roots and role of black culture. Griffin is professor of English and comparative literature at Columbia university. She's the author of many books and a recipient of the 2021 and Guggenheim fellowship.
Speaker 2 00:00:37 And then the last part of the hour chats with Mike eriko a New York based recording artist writer and lecturing professors, his opinions and insights have a period of New York times the wall street journal and more all of this, some more. So stay tuned that right on radio.
Speaker 3 00:01:04 Good evening, everyone. I'm Dave Fettig and welcome back to radon radio. I am with Farrah. Are we pronouncing that correctly? Yes, you are. We are. We debated that and I won. So that is very good. May I call you ferret out professor Griffin? I want to read. Okay. Fair. Thank you. Farah Jasmine Grif, Griffin author of read until you understand the profound wisdom of black life and literature so much to discuss. It's a pleasure and an honor to have you here. Congratulations on the book. Um, w if you don't mind, please give our listeners a sense for what's going on in this book what's you're doing and what you're trying to do. And I say that in part, because it feels like when I picked it up, this was going to be a, you know, like maybe a super wonky academic sort of take on literature, which was cool from a, this is a guy with a graduate degree in English literature, but it's not, it's a very personal, personal book, and I want to stress that for our listeners. So, uh, go ahead and tell us what you set out to do with read until you understand.
Speaker 4 00:02:05 Sure. Um, there, there are a few things that I wanted to do, um, and that I try to do in each chapter. Uh, um, I start off with, you know, there's, there's sections of the book that are memoir, um, and, and I use autobiography as a way into some of the, um, ideas and values that I want to discuss in the literature. And I it's, um, more memoir than autobiography because it's not a full fledged life story. It's the story of, um, my father is my first teacher, him introducing me to black writers, his death when I was nine. And my, what I say, chasing him in the books he left behind. Um, so it starts way before I became an academic. Um, and then I also then talk about, um, you know, writings by African-American writers that resonate with some of the, um, personal stories that I try to tell. And then I try to leave each chapter kind of opening out to kind of broader issues that we continue to confront today in the United States around race and history and things like that. So it tries to accomplish all three of those things.
Speaker 3 00:03:17 It does. Yeah, it's very nicely described, um, uh, want to have a reading from you, but before you do that, since you mentioned your father, um, I'm going to start off with my first question, which is your father is a big part of this book. Um, he's in many respects. Uh, I'm not a protagonist so much, but he shows up a lot. Um, tell us why that is. And, uh, your father's influence on your, uh, your, your brilliant literary career.
Speaker 4 00:03:44 Certainly. Um, so I think when I thought back to, um, why I became interested in, you know, literature at all and why books were important to me, um, they're important to me because of my father. My father was a voracious reader. He loved history. Um, I think he was probably a frustrated school teacher. Um, and so he had a captive audience in me. Um, and I, I wanted it, you know, just what you said, like this could be a wonky academic book, but I wanted to remind readers that these books that I talk about belongs to all of us, um, whether we are in a college classroom or not. And that my love for them, my love for these ideas started way before I ever started any kind of formal education. And that starts with my dad. So he's a very big part. And also tragically. I lost him when I was very young and, um, I don't know, had I not lost him? I don't know that I would have continued to read in the way that I did. Um, but partly out of missing him and out of a longing to know more about him. I continued to read the kinds of things that I knew he might find interesting. Hmm.
Speaker 3 00:04:54 For me, it's very poignant. You're describing your relationship with your father and that it ended up of course, so young for you. Um, but daddy very much continued to live with you in books. Uh, and it's a very beautiful story in that respect. Um, if you take nothing else from this wonderful book. So before we start, uh, talking too long and we miss your reading Farah, why don't you give us a reading, uh, a taste for what you're doing?
Speaker 4 00:05:20 Certainly. So I chose to, um, actually read from the chapter on death. There are many chapters to read from that chapter, and it's not as, as dark and foreboding as this might sound in much literature by black American writers. Death does not constitute an ending, but a change. My son Hughes writes dear lovely death. That takes all things underwing never to kill only to change into some other thing, this suffering flesh to make it either more or less, but not again. The same dear lovely death change is by other name does not this understanding of death provide comfort, not the comfort offered by the promise of heaven and everlasting life, but more akin to the law of the conservation of energy quote, energy cannot be created or destroyed. It can only be changed from one form to another in quote, but people who have suffered death at the hands of their oppressors may have developed an understanding and conception of it that rescues us from the temptation of despair.
Speaker 4 00:06:35 My father, his friends and other members of our family, their lives were attenuated, not fully realized except in the realm of love that they received and gave. Perhaps it was because of the absence of religious training in my youth or the agnostic training of my father that I never had a conception of heaven or an explanation of death such as Christianity provides. Maybe this is why I turn to literature and song as an adult, I have often turned to Hughes's poem and its promise of transformation after the loss of loved ones. However, I think the deaf here is not only that of a living being what also the death of an idea, a place capitalism where the United States, for instance, the end is not the end, but a change personally, the poem confirmed for me what I have intuited about this thing with which I have so much experience, but which continues to elude.
Speaker 4 00:07:37 My understanding Hughes closes, the poem changes the other name. I've always known death to be change, to be the foreclosure of one set of possibilities. And the opening of another to write about death offers the possibility of stepping outside of race, not to avoid it or to transcend it. What, to turn to a reality that predates it in our society. Death is both raced and without race, we all die how we do so, and how we respond to the loss of loved ones might very well be determined by race. And we all have something to teach each other about it, about tending to the dead about our own dying. There are lessons to be learned and values to be shared. I've come to greatly admire Jewish morning rituals, especially the week long shiver, the year devoted to the daily rested recitations or the mourner's Kaddish and the unveiling of the headstone on the first anniversary of a loved one's death.
Speaker 4 00:08:41 Langston Hughes offers a way of thinking about the inevitable, what it shares with black Christianity is a notion that one leaves the suffering flesh. And in that way, there is a shared sense of transcendence where he departs from it is that there is nothing about going to heaven, meeting Jesus, nothing about what one has to do in this life to get to heaven in the next, the death that has changed here can be embraced by those who are religious or secular by those who believe death transforms us into ancestors or into environmental energies, into Stardust. Even
Speaker 3 00:09:22 Thank you. That was Farah Jasmine Griffin reading from her new book read until you understand the profound wisdom of black life and literature. That was beautiful. Um, that's a chapter I wanted to spend time talking to you about. So we'll jump right into death. Uh, um, you write that death haunts black America in this chapter. Uh, I wonder if you could, and you hint at this in the reading, but if you could talk a little more about for us please, what you mean by that. Um, uh, how does Hans black life and literature? Um,
Speaker 4 00:09:56 Well, um, I think for the same reasons, you know, that, that, um, there is, um, you know, the death of so many, there's a spiritual, many thousands gone there, there, there, the deaths of all of the kind of anonymous, unknown people, you know, who may have lost their lives on the middle passage. There's the death of those people who are enslaved. There's the raised, um, cemeteries all throughout the nation or, you know, something built on top of black seminary, some cemeteries. Um, and I think there's the kind of premature death that, um, many people experienced, but that is really preponderant in black life, whether it be premature death, violently, or premature death because of health inequities, um, that it is something that haunts, I think, black life and consequently haunts, um, black art, uh, but the art, I think, and especially the writers try to give meaning to that death. Um, they try to, you know, name it, bear witness to it and give some kind of meaning to it. So one of the most important, for instance, novels, American novels by a black writer is Toni Morrison's beloved. You know, that's a testimony to a certain kind of death and life after death, but I think it's true of, of much of the re uh, much of the literature, right?
Speaker 3 00:11:27 Um, you, you mentioned in your reading and I think this is from you, not from lincston use, but, uh, to think about, uh, how different, not cultures, but race is experience or practice death. And I hate to admit this, but it kind of a light bulb went off in my head. I mean, we all have experienced death in our lives and we experienced it culturally. And, uh, but to think about an in terms of race, uh, really sort of opened my mind up to, uh, help people, uh, experienced life through death. Uh, and I don't know where I'm going with this other than, um, do you want to take it from there and then maybe
Speaker 4 00:12:04 No happily? I mean, I think that, um, you know, one way to learn something about all cultures is to learn how they deal with debt and what are the rituals they formed around it. Um, I think it's significant that in the African-American tradition, um, there's something called the Homegoing, uh, funerals where they're almost a celebration of life. Um, and I think that that's a direct, um, acknowledgement of just how difficult life has been, right. That no matter what one is relieved from the difficulties of life and that there is a celebration of that life. But I think that I, you know, I am very attracted to morning rituals of all cultures. Um, and because I think they tell us a great deal about, um, what it is we value about life and how, how we tend to are dead and are dying. Um, I think we have a lot to learn from each other. And that's what I try to get at in this chapter,
Speaker 3 00:13:01 Well said, beautifully said, I want to go back to sort of the foundation for the book, which is literature, and this idea that through reading especially fiction, and I'm going to ask you to define literature because I'm going to push you on that definition. I think I'm going to try to, but, uh, um, that through reading fiction literature, we can experience or learn empathy and somehow become better people do by that is that,
Speaker 4 00:13:28 Um, you know, I know it's, you know, it's, it's, it can be kind of naive and optimistic, but I do believe that, um, reading literature at least makes us, um, can help us become more aware of each other's humanity, if nothing else. Um, and so, you know, literature is broadly defined for me here. Um, so it's, it's fiction mostly, but not only fiction, it includes oratory. It includes, um, speeches and essays. Um, and I think what they have in common is that the writers of them care about language. They care about the use of language. They care about the power of language and, you know, they care about the aesthetics of language. So, um, even the speeches or the, um, the works of non-fiction, um, are very carefully crafted and the people are, um, aware of themselves, very self-conscious about the writing. Um, and I, I, I do believe that there is the potential doesn't always exist, but that literature does have the potential to connect us with people who are different from ourselves in ways that we might not always have access to.
Speaker 3 00:14:45 So I agree with you on literature, and I think everyone listening to this program, or just a bunch of book nerds, w we agree with you, um, you have, uh, it's, it's a beautifully written book, too. I'm going to just read from your chapter on joy and something like self-determination, because for me, this is a metaphor for literature, and this is the restaurant that your family owned for a time, and that you worked in, and you have this, uh, little section here where you say we were a people through the door of that restaurant in walked us. I think that's gorgeous by the way.
Speaker 4 00:15:19 Well, you know, that actually comes from the, the, the, there's an epigraph to that chapter, um, where I quote a poem that was written by a Mary Baraka. Um, and it's the title of the poem is in walk, bud, which is a famous jazz song about bud Powell. And he closes it within walked us. And so it's an illusion to that poem, but I'm talking about, you know, the people who came into our family's restaurant who were in some ways kind of like every man and every woman, you know, you got everything who came through there. And, um, and, and that, that's what that space was.
Speaker 3 00:15:54 And that's what books are. This is where I was going with that. This is where books are. Uh, you mentioned music and what I want to push you a little bit on literature. I, I, I wasn't surprised at what was a little surprised, but very pleased to have to find that you also discuss music, art, and even, um, dress making fabric. And, and I'm thinking, are these literature for you are these forms of literature,
Speaker 4 00:16:21 Right? So I think that, um, I think, you know, I was trying to be very honest about, uh, that, you know, I grew up in a working class, black neighborhood, um, and books were very important to me and very important to my dad and very important to, as many of my friends and, you know, as girls, we traded books and we read them over the summer, but there was nothing more important to us than music. And so I felt like I had to be honest and say, you know, there was a lot of reading, but more than reading people were listening to music and engaging music. And I would be lying if I said books were more important than music because it was not. So I wanted to acknowledge that the painting in that chapter I'm on, which is also about my mother as a seamstress, the painting itself, um, Lynn's a entree, lets me enter into talking about my mother's work as a seamstress and about the craft of, um, an artistry that writing is one form of craft and artistry. Cause I also talk about Morrison and Wendolyn Brooks in that chapter. Um, but that my mother, as a seamstress and her meticulous nature in her creativity that I learned to appreciate craft and how things were put together, watching her. And I think that that was a skill that I brought to my own writing and also to my reading and understanding of literature to appreciate the craft of creating something out of nothing, which is what artists do, including seamstresses.
Speaker 3 00:17:57 Yeah. That's beautiful. Have you written a fiction poetry?
Speaker 4 00:18:03 I've written boats and I published neither.
Speaker 3 00:18:06 I joined the club.
Speaker 4 00:18:08 Um, I think, you know, a lot of people will identify with that. Um, but you know, non-fiction is my realm.
Speaker 3 00:18:16 Okay. Um, you mentioned Tony Morrison and I'm going to just say this. We all know Tony Morrison, uh, if we're this new to this program. Uh, but, and, and I, and everyone was listening to this field is fairly well-read, but we're going to pick up this book and we're going to be introduced to writers, which we otherwise didn't know. And I've written down one in particular. I wanted to mention, I'm not going to find it, but I'm going to ask you to mention to us writers that we probably don't know it, and we should know that we should make note of while we're listening to, to go out and, and read. And then when I find that name, I'm going to mention it, but please,
Speaker 4 00:18:55 Oh, um, I think especially some of the 19th century writers who I talk about, people might be less familiar with the poet, Frances Ellen Watkins Harper, um, perhaps Charles Chestnut, the novelist who I think sometimes novels, very good and very needing. Um, so, you know, I'd recommend people pick up Charles Chesnutt, um, certainly Harper, um, uh, David Walker, the 1830, you know, manifesto writer, David Walker. Um, and then later on maybe people who, um, folks have heard of, but haven't really taken the time to read like a, um, Ernest gains. For instance, I talk about his novel, the lesson before dying, which is just one of the most beautiful novels. I know. So I hope that there are many people that, um, either readers don't know and will read or they've heard of, but this will give them, uh, you know, kind of impetus to, to, to look for them and read them.
Speaker 3 00:19:49 I found the name it's Toni Cade Bambara, and my parents, Bam. I want it to spell it.
Speaker 4 00:19:58 DRA from Barra is actually, um, those short stories and things were actually edited by Tony Morrison when Tony Morrison was an editor at random house and Toni Cade Bambara is enormously gifted. Wasn't enormously gifted writer. She wrote two novels, one of which Morrison finished, um, because Bombora died before she finished it. Um, but she's also, she really excels at the short story. And so she's, she's definitely worth pursuing,
Speaker 3 00:20:30 Okay, Toni Cade Bambara. And, you know, you mentioned David Walker and some of the writing from the 19th century, um, and this was political writing. This was writing meant to move and, uh, make, uh, people get things done and, uh, for act to action, but it was beautifully written and it was sort of struck. And of course, pleased by your emphasis on the fact that it was beautiful writing, how important was it then that, uh, for, for this writing to be more than just, um, prevocational, but to be, you know, well-written to, to, to accomplish what they want to do accomplish,
Speaker 4 00:21:06 I think you've hit the nail on the head that it had to be, you know, Maurice and says it had to be both political and beautiful. I think that they knew they were writing to history to actually someone like Walker. I mean, he was he's writing these very militant ideas and the likelihood of them really taking on in their day was, you know, um, they were, they were going to be marginal ideas, but I think that he sort of wrote to the future as well. And, and, and in some ways being really concerned with the kind of eloquence, um, that would ensure that, um, that it would be sustained, that it would be read by future generations. I think it was very important to those writers. Um, David Walker, Henry Highland, Garnet Francis, Ellen Watkins, Harper, um, and Douglas being kind of the epitome, Frederick Douglas being the epitome of that.
Speaker 3 00:21:56 Yeah. Read until you understand Pharaoh, what do you want us to understand?
Speaker 4 00:22:02 Oh, wow. I think, um, I want you to understand that, um, understanding is not a destination, but a journey that I'm read until you understand means a process of committing ourselves to a process of understanding. Um, and that one does not read until you get it and that you stop that. Hopefully one has a lifetime of reading, which is also what this book is about. It's, it's a life with books, a life lived through books and, um, uh, life, you know, that's been enriched by reading.
Speaker 3 00:22:38 Yeah. You're, uh, chapter's sort of, as I imagine it, take us on this journey as you described, there's sort of an arc here we go through rage resistance. We go through death and, um, we come out on the other side, if you will, cultivating beauty and speaking of gardens and grace, um, and this is intentional. Yes, absolutely. That's nice. He didn't leave us with death. We thank you for that, Even though it's a beautiful chapter, it's a chapter that's going to stick with me. Uh, but, uh, is there hope, do you, do you find hope in literature? Do you find hope? And when you read through this great American literary arc narrative arc,
Speaker 4 00:23:22 I do. I mean, I think, um, no, not a naive optimism, but certainly a hopefulness, because I think we right. All writers right. To a future as well as a present. So you're writing and even if it's a future, you know, I mean, I think about like, we read the ancient Greeks, right. And that's maybe that they lived in doesn't exist anymore, but we read them. So, um, there's a, there's a hopefulness in that. There's going to be somebody in the future, um, for whom these words are still going to be meaningful and have something to say. So I think that yes, there is hopeful. There, there is a hope.
Speaker 3 00:24:02 Yeah. I'm going to ask you one more question about for already near enough. They're giving me the wrap-up sign. Um, uh, how about content writers today that we should be reading that we should know about other than maybe the ones we already know about the Toni Morrison's, that sort of thing, but contemporary writers, young writers up in current.
Speaker 4 00:24:20 So I, um, I write about one of my favorite writers in the book is, um, Jessamine ward, who's won the national book awards. She's, she's an excellent writer of fiction and non-fiction, um, I write about salvage the bones, um, her book and just, I think she's someone to pick up and read. I am just finishing up an extraordinary novel. That's so long, but it's so good. It's called, um, it's called moon in the Mars by a right of the key Cawthorne and is set in the 1850s in New York and five points, you know, where Martin Scorsese made his film about five points. Okay. And it's narrated by a seven year old little girl named Theo who, um, whose father was African-American and his mother was Irish and she's beloved by both her Irish, aunts and her African-American aunts and grandmother, but it's historical novel and it's a fascinating novel. So yeah, it's really, really exciting.
Speaker 3 00:25:19 And the Mars and Toni Cade, Bambara, ladies and gentlemen, we have a reading assignments. So before I let you go, uh, what are you working on next? Are you working on something else or you just going to be a wonderful teacher?
Speaker 4 00:25:32 Well, I am, I'm, I'm putting together a collection of essays that will come out. Norton will be publishing, um, soon. And I'm actually going to write up, uh, there's a series of books coming out of penguin about African-American thinkers and artists, and I'll be writing one on Marson. So I write a lot about her in this book, but there was a lot I do put in there and I'll get to explore that a little more in the next one.
Speaker 3 00:25:54 Oh, that's wonderful. And aren't we lucky there's going to be more coming ladies and gentlemen from Farah, Jasmine Griffin. Thank you for being with us. It's been fabulous. We've been talking with Farah, Jasmine Griffin, about read until you understand the profound wisdom of black life and literature. It's a great book. It's a real treat. Enjoy by now and now this
Speaker 4 00:26:40 Hi, Mike, are you there?
Speaker 0 00:26:42 Yes,
Speaker 5 00:26:42 I am
Speaker 6 00:26:43 Great. Yes, I can. Uh, this is Liz and I speaking with Mike Erico about his book, music, lyrics, and wife, but book about songwriting in particular, although it, uh, it has some general, uh, things for everybody, I would say. Uh, why don't you give us a little description and then you're reading.
Speaker 5 00:27:04 Sure. Well, um, first of all, I should say, uh, my last name is pronounced Erica usually, but I answered it either. Um, and this book comes out of, uh, years of mine, uh, teaching songwriting at, uh, Yale Wesleyan and NYU's, uh, Institute of recorded music. Um, and basically what it is, is a series of questions from my students that I answer as deeply as I possibly can. And, uh, it takes me into sort of a unified field of creativity. That was a mouthful. Yeah.
Speaker 6 00:27:51 I like unified field theory. That's great. Uh, and you're reading,
Speaker 5 00:27:56 Um, I read it. Um, I can read right now.
Speaker 5 00:28:00 Yes. Excellent. So I was born backward, literally. It's called a Frank breech birth, which is doctor talk for ass. First. The joke is that I never quite turned around and there's some evidence to support that I backed into songwriting. My dad, a classical pianist signed up for a pop song, writing class at new York's songwriter hall of fame. He hated it, but didn't want to ask for his money back. We have the same name. So I showed up in his place. I've gone on to record deals, international tours and music for TV and film. I backed into teaching while on the road, I got a call from a friend, a college Dean who invited me to speak to students about songwriting as a career. I told them, I didn't think I knew how to do that. And he booked me anyway. And I've been teaching ever since.
Speaker 5 00:28:53 And I backed into this book, the one I wanted to give my students didn't exist. So I wrote it. My point, people come to songwriting from all different directions. Some have wanted to do this since they were little kids. Some like to make their parents mad, some of wildly talented, but crippled with doubt. All I can say is no matter which way you're facing, I think I can help you. I say this because I've been teaching college level songwriting for years now. And every semester I have students who want to meet with me for office hours. This means they volunteer to sit with me, no credit, no cash, payout, just coffee. And some of them aren't even in school anymore. The ones who are often take my classes multiple times, my inbox is packed with demos. We mixes and private links, upcoming releases. They're all repeat customers. And over the years I've noticed that many of them ask repeat questions. The point of this book is to try to address those repeat questions, because chances are good that you have them too. And I can have coffee with everyone much as I'd like to, we'll get into some technical aspects of songwriting, but let's also recognize the context into which we're writing, because one has a huge influence on the other.
Speaker 5 00:30:10 Um, the upshot while it's true, that several of my past students have gone on to enormous success. A lot of my students aren't going to end up being songwriters at all. I don't count either as personal success or failure. Can you imagine if your high school physics teacher based their worth on how many of their students became famous businesses? The asylums would be full of high school physics teachers, and yet so many principles that were learned in physics are applicable to other fields. And so the living of a richer, more informed life, this means you don't have to be a lifelong career songwriter to benefit from this book. And I wrote it that way on purpose. My students don't need to write another song in order to lead successful lives, using the material we covered. If you study anything deeply, everything eventually seems to meet up.
Speaker 5 00:31:01 That said, here's my hope for you. I want you to have a tight incandescent song that will kick the door down for all your visions to rush through. I want you to plant a flag so you can build a creative world around it. And I want that world to be intrinsic to who you are as an artist. I want you to crash your own set list with a wave of brilliant new songs. And I want you to play them out in public places where you'll make money fans, lovers, and I want you to make this world a more beautiful place. I wrote this book the same way I write songs. I started with a question, followed it and hung on for the ride. I'd like to thank my students for asking great questions. And to thank you for showing up. If you've gotten this far, the book's already a hit. If you get to the end, it's a smash. And if you're writing better songs, it's a movement.
Speaker 6 00:31:53 Well, I did get to the end of music life and lyrics by Mike eriko. And, um, it says a lot about the book and you're reading. Uh, so I want to start with journaling. You talk a lot about journaling and stress it in the book. And I'm wondering if you could, uh, you know, uh, most of us, well, not me because I'm a writer, but many, many people think of a journal is that little teeny books that you get to for Christmas when you're in sixth grade and it has a wok and a key in the lock never works and you lose the key. And that is a diary, I guess. Uh, but generally is something different from that. And, uh, so why don't you tell us about that and why you stress it so much?
Speaker 5 00:32:34 Sure. Well, first of all, we, we all have like this cloud of materials that sort of like buzzing around in all of our heads. And, uh, when I see my students, um, what I, what I am trying to do is get them to focus and to get raw material out and into a recognizable form somehow. Um, I liken it to, when you feel like you have a thousand things to do, and you're just overwhelmed and everything, and then you make a list and you realize, oh, it's like four things. They're big things, but there's four, you know, um, just having things become tangible in some, in some small way, uh, allows us to focus on what it is that we're actually thinking about. What is our, what is our subconscious actually doing? It's almost like spying on the subconscious. Um, but the good news about it is that you actually have a literal recording of those thoughts.
Speaker 5 00:33:34 Then you can move through them and, uh, start finding, uh, salient points, excellent titles, uh, interesting tangents, uh, that you can, that you can grow, uh, into, into, into songs, of course, but also into anything. And what I tell my students is you don't have to end up being a songwriter. I mean, if you start journaling and you start writing formulas or blueprints for a bridge or whatever it is, follow the journal, follow your subconscious, follow your, uh, your whatever's going on in, in your mind, you follow your interests. Um, and if it took a song writing class for you to build a bridge or a house or whatever, great, then, uh, then the job was well done. Um, but that, that's what I try to do. I try and get the unformed material to become form, you know, um, journaling yes, is, is one way to do it. Other people do it, uh, recording their voices, uh, some people. And I go through the book. I, I, I give all sorts of examples of journaling, but in all cases it's finding, uh, finding the unconscious raw material of, of our minds of our minds and getting them into a tangible form.
Speaker 6 00:35:01 I think that leads to another question about trust. You also talk about trust and I wonder if you talk about trust, especially trusting yourself as a songwriter slash writers slash architect, uh, et cetera.
Speaker 5 00:35:16 Right. Well, I mean, there's, there are two kinds of trusts that I'm thinking about. I'm not sure which one you're thinking about, but, um, there is, there are certainly the trust in your own, uh, you know, in, in your own trajectory, uh, in, uh, wherever it leads, right? So, um, so much of writing, so much of creativity is about being lost and handling the maintenance of your anxiety when you're lost. Right. Um, there's a wonderful book by Rebecca Solnit called a field guide for getting lost. And basically when you're lost, you are, you are actually, uh, it's, you're, you're growing, you're growing into some new, uh, some new place. Um, so there is there isn't that particular trust, the trust of your tools, right? And, um, is, uh, is something that you have to get to. Um, uh, and I think it really helps the students to have tools and then to be able to trust them no matter where they lead. There's a second kind of trust where, um, which deals with co-writing. Um, and that's a particular kind of trust of your collaborator and this of course goes into co-writing, but it all, it goes into marriage, you know, it goes into co-parenting, it goes, it goes into, into everything. And trust is really, um, it's a muscle like, like all, like all the others. Um, so, uh, getting burned is not the worst thing in the world because it strengthens the muscles.
Speaker 6 00:36:57 Um, musicians often say the space between the notes is as important, if not more important than the notes themselves. And I'm wondering if you feel like there's space between the words that can bring out the words themselves, if the, if that works for words as well as music.
Speaker 5 00:37:15 Uh, absolutely. Um, in the book I mentioned, um, a sort of epiphany I had running through a, uh, library, um, and bumping into John cage poems, um, with John cage did, is actually he spread the words out across the page and left these big blanks. Um, and I was just blown away by that, you know, like I was like, those blanks are really the more interesting part of this whole, uh, poem. And if that's the case, then what am I reading? You know? Um, and if the blank sections that cover so much of this page, uh, are the most interesting, then a series of the most interesting choices actually ends up being a blank page. And, and John cage actually did that, of course, by creating a silent piece. Um, but with that sort of feeling, uh, I I've decided, um, to stress that if you don't have something that beats silence, don't say it, you know, so in all, in all parts of my class, we stress, I stress, um, editing. I never tell them to add, I almost never tell people to add stuff. It's almost always edit, edit back. It's almost always better when it's shorter, you know? Um, and that's actually the addition of silence, you know, and it's also very generous, I think, to the listeners or the readers or to anyone, um, to, to have that sort of efficiency and to realize that silence is really the important part of this, and you are interrupting that. Right. Right. Um, and, and so you have a great responsibility, uh, to make it worth everyone's time.
Speaker 6 00:39:12 The PC referred to is the one called the four minutes and 33 seconds or something like that. Right? Correct. Yes. And if silence, but it's different to every time because you hear a dog bark or sneeze or whatever. Um, so yes, the words are the same way. Uh, let's talk about some of the, um, specifics. Um, well, the thing that most interested me in terms of that you wrote quite a bit about, am I putting this in air quotes writer's block and I don't believe in writer's block, you don't believe in writer's block. Some people do. So why don't you talk about that and how to get away from that idea?
Speaker 5 00:39:53 Right. Well, to be honest, I mean, what I, what I say is that, um, writer's block is like the big foot of artistic maladies, uh, in that it definitely does not exist. Um, w you were never blocked from writing. You know, if you have some sort of, uh, if you're wearing mittens and you can't type the letters, that's a block, right. Blocks are, are physical. It sounds physical, but the term writer's block was invented in the forties by a doctor named, uh, Dr. Edmund burglar, who was a, uh, Freudian psychiatrist who worked in New York city, of course, uh that's where you would find someone like that. And he, uh, coined the phrase writer's block and he attributed it to, uh, women and mothers who were stingy with their breast milk, um, among other things that was one of the main reasons for writer's block. So, you know, the Freudians have been sort of rethought and, uh, during this, you know, since then, uh, but the term is so great, you know, it sounds, it sounds so important writer's block, and it's such a great way to get out of writing, you know, so you can just say that you have it, you know, and then all of a sudden you're free for the afternoon, you know?
Speaker 5 00:41:18 Um, but you know, like Bigfoot the name stuck, you know, so that's why, that's why it's still really around. Um, and the other thing about writer's block is even if you do believe that writer's block exists, right, there is a cure, it has been determined that the cure for writer's block is really to write through it. Right. That's, that's all you can do about writing writer's block, which ironically is exactly what you would be doing if you did not have writer's block. Right. So the cure is the same, whether or not you have the disease, but it's so it's so even having it makes no sense, right. Because the cure is to write. So in all cases, the cure is to, right. Um, so there's sort of an idea as to whether or not it could work, whether you believe it exists or doesn't believe it exists, you write the same, you're on the same path, regardless.
Speaker 5 00:42:21 What does exist, which is really important to say is fear, right? Fear is a huge problem. And that's what writer's block is. It's fear. And the types of fear, I go through a lot of the different types of fear that I've seen in my class. Um, uh, and it all comes down to writing through it and having the faith and the trust in yourself to go through it. Um, one of the most interesting of those fears, I think, is not liking what you're writing, but you're writing. You just hate it. Um, that's really the hardest one because you need to have trust and faith in something you're kind of, not all that, anything, you know. Um, but there are ways around that. There are ways of thinking that, you know what, this might not be for me. I might not be the intended audience for my own work.
Speaker 5 00:43:19 Um, this might, this might be going out into some other, uh, this might be a breakthrough into something else. And I have to write through it. I have to write through the bad stuff, because like going to the gym, it's going to stink and stink and steak, and all of a sudden I'm going to feel stronger. Um, so that kind of boredom, actually, I try to impress upon my students that the more bored you are, the better it is, because that means you're about to break into something totally new. Right. Um, because boredom, when you amplify, it becomes frustration and frustration when you amplify it becomes change. And that's really what we're looking for. We're looking for fresh earth, you know, uh, to, to kill if you to stretch the metaphor. But, um, so that's the kind of thing that I try and impress upon, uh, my students and, uh, and I won't have it, like I have writer's block now. I never talk about an excuse for why a paper doesn't exist. Like that just does not fly in, uh, in my room. I just don't believe it right. The bad paper, you know, just get, just keep going. So those are my thoughts on writer's block.
Speaker 6 00:44:36 I like your concept that it's right before a breakthrough that you get that, um, I, uh, I, I believe that there's no such thing as good or bad in writing. I'm wondering if that's true for you as well.
Speaker 5 00:44:54 Oh yeah. Oh, and the CR you know, the crazy, the crazy thing about that is that I have to give grades, which is ridiculous. Right? So raising an art thing, it's like, technically I'm supposed to discern whether or not there's good or bad. Um, and I tell the students that right at the beginning, I do not have the, uh, uh, I don't have the wherewithal to do that. I don't believe in it either. You know, um, what I do believe in are the tangible parts of the class, you know, output and literally being on time, you know, effort and output are what I mostly grade on. Um, so if you write 20 songs in a, um, uh, in a semester, I'm going to give you a pretty good grade, regardless of how do you know what else has happened? Because at the end of the day, that's all that's left, right?
Speaker 5 00:45:57 That's what you have at the end of my semester. And I impress that upon them as well. Um, if you don't write a song for the week, you don't have that song, and that is the bigger issue, and that's the bigger problem, uh, then anything I can grade you on. Um, uh, and you know, in the beginning, I actually tried to dissuade them from taking the class a little bit, because I'm like, we don't, if you don't want to be here, don't be here. It's a waste of time for the other thing that you should be doing. Um, but if you are here, put your foot to the floor, put the you're, hit the gas, like that's, what's going to make you a better, but also give you catalog. And for songwriters catalog really has everything. Um, how, how, if it's your bank, right? And I mean, for everyone, you know, if you're a writer and you need short stories or whatever it is, um, having them at your disposal and finished is such a gift. Um, and so I try to give them that gift, uh, by, uh, by being wildly enthusiastic about their work and getting, get them to put in the effort and, and come out with the output. So that's sort of, that's more important than good or bad, good or bad is anything right? I mean, good songs are not necessarily hits and hit songs are not necessarily good. I think we can all agree on. Right. So, yeah.
Speaker 6 00:47:31 Do you have a particular song writer that you admire or do you just admire anybody who gets their button, the seed?
Speaker 5 00:47:41 Um, well, you know, my, my guiding star from, as a child and through most of my life has been Stevie wonder, of course, not of course, but like, he's just, he's just somewhere that really rang true for me, um, as a kid. Um, and so that never really goes away. Um, so offshoots of offshoots of him, uh, any, anything that, that shoots off of him and wherever he led me, uh, uh, those are the places I went. And first she was a very varied writer. So he went all over the place, um, and, uh, and used a tremendous number of musicians through his, through his recordings. Um, so he was really the Keystone for lots of seventies, eighties, soul music, into songwriters, into people like people who came up through the seventies and eighties, like, uh, Tom waits maybe, or, or, or people, people like that.
Speaker 5 00:48:47 People more left of center, I think are a little bit more interesting because I think they're there in a little bit more of a different, more personal place. Um, and I, I just, I respect that. I like it. He used Socratic people just in general and you think cratic, uh, comedians or stuff like that. So when their art is a little off kilter, um, those are the things, those are the people that I like. Um, uh, you know, Stevie wonder was incredibly singular, Joni Mitchell, very singular. Um, but yeah, uh, you know, the, the Tom waits, Tom, Petty's the, that whole CR Dale. And of course, you know, those, I watched get back. I don't know if you watched that the Beatles documentary that just came out, it's really worth it.
Speaker 6 00:49:41 So is it worth it to pay for it? Is it worth it to pay it for a month of Disney to, uh, to see it?
Speaker 5 00:49:49 Well, it depends on how it's really great for anyone who is involved in process. And I would say if you were to watch the first episode, you would get a lot of that process. Uh, I don't know if you can Al a carte this thing, but like you get, you know, if you watched the first one, you would get the sense of, of the brilliance, but also the incredible tedium. It's very tedious. Yes. Because it has a real, like, real time feel to it. So it's, it's, um, it's both brilliant and agonizing at the same time, and it's much more real as, as a result. It's kind of astonishing. Um, I I'm really, uh, uh, thankful that they did that.
Speaker 6 00:50:38 We are almost out of time. So why don't you let us know if you have a website to how to find out more about this, besides reading the book music, um, um, lyrics, lyrics, music wife, is that I don't, I closed my book. Yes. There's a wonderful blur. I just wasn't sure which order it was. Um, so we've been talking about that and I'm wondering if people can find out more from a website or even how to get a copy of the book.
Speaker 5 00:51:10 Sure. Well, it's available everywhere, uh, that books are sold, but I would say go to your local bookstore, um, and order it there. Uh, my website is eriko.com E R R I C o.com. Um, and my local library is called books are magic and it's in, uh, Carroll gardens, Brooklyn here in New York, and they will ship and they ship, uh, signed copies as well as, as often as I can go over there and sign it. Um, also there's a band camp, which is a, uh, which is a artist direct to fan kind of platform. And I personalized and signed copies there.
Speaker 6 00:51:53 Okay. Don't mention the price. We're not allowed to mention the price.
Speaker 5 00:51:57 No, no, no. None of you. Um, but bookshop.org is another place that will kick back some, uh, some of the profits to your local bookstore. So they're pretty great. Yeah. I love local bookstores. I think that's a great, it's a great addition. And, uh, to any neighborhood vital, a vital piece of, uh, of any neighborhood. Yeah.
Speaker 6 00:52:20 I asked them we're losing them. So it's a good thing to go to them. And well, we've been, hang on a second here. I gotta reach something here. We've been talking to Mike, eriko the author of music, lyrics and wife a book about, well, it's a book about those things and he's like, it's about a song writing. And, uh, I think it, uh, uh, is a good book to read about life to it. It has a lot of suggestions that can be, uh, expanded to for anybody who is a creative in art. We all creative in one way or another. Mike, thanks so much for talking to us. I really appreciate it. It's been fun. And will you bet and we'll, we'll let you go. And now this
Speaker 1 00:54:11 You are listening to right on radio on cafe 90.3 FM and streaming live on the
[email protected] on Josh Weber. I'd like to thank our special guest tonight, Farah, Jasmine Griffin, and Mike Erica, plus our listeners without your support and donations KFA would not be possible. You can find more news and info about right on radio at cafe.org/right on radio. Plus listen to recent episodes on our recently launched podcast found on Spotify, iTunes, Google podcast, and anywhere podcasts can be found. Now stay tuned to a bone Juul, Minnesota
