Speaker 1 00:01:10 You are listening to Right On Radio on Kfa I 90.3 FM and streaming live on the
[email protected]. I'm Sam. On tonight's program, Josh talks with Ducker Keltner about his recent work, awe, the New Science of Everyday Wonder and How it Can Transform Your Life. Ketner presents a radical investigation and deeply personal inquiry into this elusive emotion revealing new research into how awe transforms our brains and bodies alongside the examination of awe, across history, culture, and within his own life. During a period of grief, ner shows us how cultivating on our everyday life leads us to appreciate what is most humane in our human nature.
Speaker 2 00:01:52 Aw, that sounds great. I'm Annie. In the last part of the hour, Molly Ray talks to Kelly Barnhill about her novel when Women Were Dragons. A best book of the year on Buzzfeed, good Reads and Book Riot when Women Were Dragons exposes a world that wants to keep women small their lives and their prospects, and examines what happens when they rise in mass and take up the space. They deserve all this and more. So stay tuned to write on radio.
Speaker 3 00:02:29 Der Keltner is a leading expert on the biology of human emotion at uc, Berkeley, professor of psychology, director of the Raider Good Science Center and the author of the bestselling book, born to Be Good Ketner, has spent decades researching the evolutionary and cultural origins of emotions, uncovering how they shape us and steer our moral intuition in his ground break. Break in new book A, the science of everyday wonder and how it can transform your life, Kellner unpacks the emerging science of awe revealing what physically happens in our bodies when we experience awe and why we become predisposed to awe through evolution. Dacker, welcome to write on radio.
Speaker 4 00:03:07 It's great to be with you, Josh.
Speaker 3 00:03:09 So a is the culmination of 28 years of research. Yeah. But emotion that Steam Pinker says is strongly felt, but poorly understood.
Speaker 4 00:03:18 Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:03:19 Why has it taken nearly three decades to unpack this complex emotion?
Speaker 4 00:03:23 Yeah. You know, you know, one reason is the science of emotion is pretty young scientifically. Uh, it really only gained momentum, you know, in the eighties, nineties. Um, and then the, the broader reason, and it's almost a sociology of science explanation, which is that, you know, we were locked in this mindset in the science of emotion and psychological science more generally of sort of emotion is about fighting or fleeing and, and then sexual behavior. Um, you know, and we studied the fight or flight emotions like pleasure, uh, fear, anger and sadness and the like. Um, and we just didn't think about transcendent emotions that connect us to collectives. And then I would add that I think that scientists were a little worried that if you studied awe, people might think you're religious or you're interested in spirituality, or you're Timothy Le and you love psychedelics, you know, or you're, you know, a new age guy. But I live in Berkeley and I got long hair and I, you know, I can do it. So, you know, <laugh>. But, but it was just too good to study. And it turns out, you know, it's interesting, Josh, it turns out to be one of the easiest emotions to measure and study in the lab. So let's, off we go.
Speaker 3 00:04:36 Yeah. Let's talk about it. So yeah, it's, it's, well, you define the book as encountering something that's, it's something vast and mysterious that we don't understand, transcends our understanding. And as a scientist, how did you go about trying to discern the nature of this elusive emotion in a laboratory setting?
Speaker 4 00:04:53 Yeah. You know, so oz the feeling of encountering a vast mystery that you don't understand. And so that poses real challenges for the lab, which is how do I build experiments, um, where people encounter things that are vast, right? When a lab is kind of this nine by 12 room and mysterious. Uh, and so we've, uh, deployed a couple of activ of approaches. One, quite frankly, is I think some of our best experiments of awe are outside of the lab. And we've studied people as have others, in rituals at football games, at around giant trees at Yosemite, at fire walking rituals in mosh pits, right? So we get the emotion outside of the lab. And then the second thing is that it turns out humans are very sophisticated in producing awe in their fellow human beings through music, in visual patterns and movies about nature. So we found the best stuff the slowmo guys, right? Where you watch a wa a glass drop in slow motion break into a million fragments, you're like, wow. Uh, and so, you know, and then we figured out how to measure it, you know, measure its voice and its face and the goosebumps and its physiology and a sense of self. So we're making a lot of progress in understanding what many people thought you couldn't study scientifically.
Speaker 3 00:06:14 There are, I mean, there are moments I'm sure all of us can relate to, we felt maybe in, in, into soluble bond or of being one with universe Yeah. When we've attended maybe a great concert or, um, yeah, we've taken shrooms or <laugh>
Speaker 4 00:06:28 <laugh>
Speaker 3 00:06:30 Or filled with religious ecstasy and and so on. But how can we train ourselves to find more awe in our own lives?
Speaker 4 00:06:35 Yeah. You know, the, the ex, whenever we think about an emotion like awe, it comes from many different sources from nature to music to big ideas like nom chomsky's, critique of capitalism, what have you. It comes from many sources. It comes in many degrees, right? Some intense, some less intense, and the really intense versions of awe that you described, Josh. You know, you're at a concert and you just start weeping. Um, you're singing in a choir. My daughter and I were got to chant with these monks in the Buddhist, in the Himalayas, you know, um, that's transcendent, and your body just dissolves mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And the, the poet Ross Gay called it Our poorest bodies become open to others. And that's fascinating. Um, but you know, you know, we actually find that even more everyday experiences of awe produce this dissolution of the boundaries between self and other.
Speaker 4 00:07:35 You go out, and this is to your question, how do we find it in our daily lives? Do an all walk, go meander for 30 minutes and look for things that are mysterious with wide open eyes, and look at small and big things. Follow the patterns of clouds, you know, go to, walk through a city and look at all the ways in which humans are interconnected. Um, study a sacred text for you. I bet every one of our listeners probably has read something that's tucked away in their bookshelf or on their Kindle, which is like, wow, that really moved me. Go back to it. Listen to a piece of music that gave you goosebumps as a teenager. Really easy ways to find it. And we find Josh, and, and this is part of the reason I wrote this book, is those everyday experiences of all do a lot of good work for us too, as, as well as taking shrooms and going in a mosh pit and, you know, <laugh> and meditating for three years. Um, there's a lot of good in everyday awe.
Speaker 3 00:08:32 You opened this book, your account, how the passenger brother made you feel, Aless. Yeah. How can a help us process grief?
Speaker 4 00:08:41 Thank you for asking that. And, and it actually, your question, um, gave me goosebumps. Um, yeah. You know, I, my younger brother and I were very close and had a, a very lucky to have a awe inspiring childhood of raised by a painter and a writer, our parents, late sixties in Laurel Canyon, you know, wandering the Sierras. And he passed away from colon cancer, which is brutal and horrifying. And it was the most horrifying period of my life. Um, and, uh, I was allis and it was funny. I was three to four months into grief. It really closely resembled what Joan Didion writes about, you know, which is I couldn't make sense of the world. Uh, I felt incoherent. I was panicky, I was waking up, I was in trouble. And this voice said, Hey man, you know, you're studying awe like, you know, it's good for you.
Speaker 4 00:09:38 Go find it. Um, and I did all these things and I took the eight wonders as a guide of moral beauty and nature and collective stuff, and music, art, spirituality, big ideas, and life and death. And I just went out and, and, you know, I went to concerts and the symphonys that I, I didn't understand, and I did meditation practices, and I went into the different mountains and I talked to moral inspiration, morally inspiring people in prisons and indigenous scholars and the like, just like, what is life about? I went in search of all, and to your question, I think the search for awe when we grieve is the fundamental task of grief. Because when people die, it makes you wonder about life. It makes you wonder about the afterlife and the point of it all. And your mind is in this heated state of awe and then grief and your challenge is to go back to awe and to find what gives it to you now and reconstruct your life. And that's what I had to do with my brother. You know, he was such a source of awe for me. I lost him and I had to go find new, new realms.
Speaker 3 00:10:54 There's a phrase you used in this book that I've loved, culture archives are,
Speaker 4 00:10:59 Thank you, <laugh>. What
Speaker 3 00:11:01 Did you, I like it. I want you to unpack what did you mean by this?
Speaker 4 00:11:04 Yeah, thank you for, for that. Uh, cuz that took a lot of time. And you know, when you study awe, um, as we have and you survey people from around the world, we've studied awe pretty intensively in 30 different countries, you know, and what you notice is that there we find awe in great cultural traditions like chanting, religious chanting, like musical forms, which, you know, Suzanne Langer, the great philosopher, said, you know, that music and visual art archive, the emotions they objectify or symbolize them like visual designs, like, you know, the meso American patterns in baskets and, you know, carvings and the like. Awe is everywhere in the great cultural traditions, religion, rituals in religion mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so the thesis that we offer with a cultural archive hypothesis is that culture, all the creative energy of culture, which is always evolving and changing through innovation. What it's doing is it's taking these ways to represent and symbolize things. And it's taking our awe patterns, right, of vocalizing when we see something that's awe inspiring or a pattern in nature and preserving it in cultural forms so that we can feel all together. And that brings us together in a sense of common cause. So culture, archives, the, the deep patterns of experience that bring us all.
Speaker 3 00:12:38 You mentioned in the book, Jane Goodall, she believes chimpanzees feel awe and have a sense of spirituality grounded in the capacity to be amazed at things outside yourself. Yeah. Can you describe what Goodall has observed any behavior of chimps that convinced her that they feel a sensation of awe?
Speaker 4 00:12:56 Yeah. You know, this was a remarkable find, um, thanks to Fran Deval, the great primatologist who wrote me and said, Hey, you know, I know you're writing about awe. You should look at what Jane Goodall says. And Goodall studying the chimps, uh, observed something she calls the waterfall display, which is chimps will, um, show when they get around large waterfalls, rushing rivers, big winds like a wind moving through, uh, a a natural area thunder and the like experience what she thought was awe, right? The primate beginnings of awe, which is they, they become quiet and still like we do when we feel awe, they look at things, they're absorbed, they fluff up their fur, just like we get goosebumps when we feel awe. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And the, what they are observing is what's vast and mysterious to them, right? Big waterfalls, loud sounds of water, storms and the like. And they are taking it in as we take in our sources of awe. And good all's quote is, you know, this is really the primate beginnings of awe and maybe spirituality where our primate relatives are getting outside of themselves and being amazed by other larger forces of life, right? Natural forces. And for us, spiritual forces,
Speaker 3 00:14:24 Darwin believed emotions were, were meant to assist us in carrying out fundamental life ta life tasks.
Speaker 4 00:14:31 Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:14:32 How did brief moments of awe help immensely with our day-to-day life?
Speaker 4 00:14:37 You know, you know, Darwin really is, you know, he's a founding figure in emotion. People have been writing about emotions in every culture forever. But for contemporary science, Darwin was fascinated about the evolutionary story of 53 different mantle states or emotions and trace them back, back to across species. You know, swan show anger, I mean, it's an incredible rattlesnakes rattle in certain ways when they're, you know, feeling excited bees hum in a particular way when they're angry. And he said, emotions are kind of the structure of our social lives. Uh, they are what's meaningful and signal to us what we care about and what we should take action according to. Um, and, uh, so Darwin had this thesis, and when we apply it to awe, and it's taking me 15, 20 years to kind of get to some half baked answer, I think awe does a couple things for us.
Speaker 4 00:15:34 One is fundamental in human evolution, which is awe shuts down self-interest, quiets the ego and makes us strong members of communities. We survive because of our social tendencies. We are geniuses. Humans are at being social compared to other species. And awe animates actions that make us strong. Collectives, we share, we cooperate, we empathize. The second thing, you know, Josh, that's really interesting is awe reveals in terms of our understanding of the world and the knowledge we acquire all reveals the systems around us. We so often move through life in this narrow focus, right? Small cause and effect relations, the self, et cetera. Awe suddenly opens us up. You feel awe at a tide pool, right? As I did when I was 10. Like, oh my God, look at this tide pool. And suddenly you realize like, oh, the ocean is a giant set of systems, right, of different species interacting ecosystems, waves, oceans, tides, moon, and so forth. And we need that system's understanding to understand ecosystems, and we need that system's understanding to understand societies and be effective members in them. So awe helps us be part of collectives and awe gives us a unique kind of knowledge that is one of the most important kinds of understanding of the world
Speaker 3 00:17:05 Across cultures, class, and religious backgrounds. What is the most common trigger for us to feel? Awe,
Speaker 4 00:17:12 You know, there, I mean, one of the things I love about science, and I've been doing it for 30 years or whatever it is, 38 years, is it always surprises you. And it's humbling, you know? And so we, we found everyday awe, which we've talked about. It's like, wow, we can fuel awe a couple times a week. That was surprising. Uh, but I think in some sense, one of the biggest surprises of our research when we surveyed people in 26 different countries, the most common source of awe was not nature, which a lot of people might offer, or spirituality, which was probably a common answer 500 years ago. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it was other people, it was what we called the moral beauty of other people. The courage that a child shows who has a physical ailment but learns how to dance, right? Uh, it was the kindness of people just, you know, I remember a student writing about seeing somebody offer some food to an unhoused individual, just reflexively. It was their, uh, sense of overcoming obstacles, right? Where you have something that's in, you know, thinking about the civil rights movement and all the obstacles placed in front of African Americans and how they overcome gives a lot of people awe. Right? So it's the moral beauty and kindness and courage and strength of others that is, is the, it's interesting too, you know, that's where we find it. But, you know, when you go to, you know, digital platforms and Instagram and otherwise, you know, it's not as common as you might imagine.
Speaker 3 00:18:54 I'm totally one of those people who is guilty of thinking that those who talk about being struck by awe, they're more susceptible to blind faith or fallacious lines of thinking. But you've, in the book, you talk about how scientific studies have said otherwise, though. Yeah. Yeah. Why does awe produce more rigorous and energized thinking?
Speaker 4 00:19:11 Yeah. You know, one of the stereotypes is, you know, when somebody feels awe, they become su suscept suscept. When somebody feels awe, they become susceptible, right? They, they'll, they'll adhere to conspiracy theories or a cult figure or mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, fascist ideology. And, and that may be true in particular context, but more generally what the research shows is you, when you feel awe, you are more rigorous in your thought, you care more about solid evidence. You, you are more scientific in your thinking. You're more sophisticated in your causal reasoning. Uh, you have deeper theoretical notions about, uh, cause and effect relationships. There are a lot of intellectual benefits to awe kids in under-resourced schools who feel awe are more interested in school, right? So it, it benefits the intellect. Um, and I think the reason is, is that one of the central things that awe does for us, particularly in childhood, is it, it it just fast tracks us to an understanding of nature and the law of physics and the, and social arrangements and social collectives, and the psychological laws of human relationships. All these systems around us, uh, awe fast tracks us to an a sharp understanding of, of those parts of the world, which are essential to our survival, right? We've gotta become part of society. We have to understand the natural world and awes the emotion, uh, that that gets us there.
Speaker 3 00:20:49 I you mentioned the benefits, and so I'm curious though, in your research, did you see any moments where there are any drawbacks to having a or maybe it's inappropriate for looking for deeper purpose or significance when it's inappropriate or
Speaker 4 00:21:00 Not? Yeah, yeah. You know, that, that's, um, that's still an unanswered question. And, you know, we always think about phenomena on continua or, or distributions. And you can imagine if you don't have much awe, you know, you tend to feel more depressed and anxious and so forth. If you have tons of a, you're feeling it 10 to 20 times a day, you probably are a little vulnerable to mania, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> or kind of on the, the, that other end of the continuum. So clearly, you know, these emotional phenomena, like even the, the, the emotions that are almost virtuous, like compassion and gratitude, if you have extreme amounts, you could get into trouble. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's, it's pathological, pathological, if you will. And, and I will note one interesting finding that speaks to your concern, Josh, uh, PI Carlo Val Desolo has found, when you feel awe given certain kinds of stimuli, you will see patterns that don't exist.
Speaker 3 00:22:01 So afinia, right? You're seeing these kind of trying to make relationships between these causal, um, things you observe in your surroundings Sure. That don't exist,
Speaker 4 00:22:10 Right? Right. So you think about, no offense, the QAN on supporter, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they're seeing the US in this complicated transition socially of inequality and new digital technologies and power structures mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And suddenly they, they, they latch onto these causal explanations that frankly are fanciful and invented mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And that's a peril of awe. Maybe they find them awe sparring. It gives them this big explanation that we have to be wary of.
Speaker 3 00:22:40 And my last question, and perhaps my toughest question
Speaker 4 00:22:42 For you, uhoh
Speaker 3 00:22:44 <laugh>, I think you're just, it's fun though. It's a, just bear with me. For many, a source for in the world is found through faith. Yeah. And William James, you've known the book discovered that at Harvard Religion is, it's about encountering a mystical awe, ineff, ineffable emotional experience of being in relation to what we consider divine. I was curious about your thoughts about this. Do you believe there'll be a point in our future where we'll see religion replaced? And if that's a case, how can we still have contact with this mystical awe that we yearn for?
Speaker 4 00:23:16 Yeah. That is a hard question, <laugh>. Yeah. You know, so let's put it into context, right? William James, who very much inspired parts of this book, awe, you know, he had this mystical experience. He was really depressed and anxious, struggling, almost suicidal. And he had a mystical experience, believe it or not, with laughing gas, nitrous oxide fell to the ground, was kind of crying and shaking. And he is like, I've discovered the fundamental cosmic it, you know, the, the divine what's primary and good mm-hmm. <affirmative> and true about life. And, and James went on the search of the meaning of mystical awe. You know, that it's unknowable. You can't describe it with words you feel that you're in, you are really understanding a fundamental truth about what animates life. And the important thing that James did is he, he gathered stories from all kinds of different religions, uh, and experiences in the turn of the 20th century and arrives at this, what we call a pluralism of, of mystical awe.
Speaker 4 00:24:24 We can find it through many different pathways. And what I am really excited about that awe does for our conversations about things like what we think is divine, how we feel a sense of spirituality. 85, 80 to 85% of Americans feel a sense of spirituality. What do we consider what Walt Whitman called the soul? What you, Josh or I Dacker Fuel is fundamental about our shared humanity, right? Awe is an experience that points us to answers for ourselves in a pluralistic way to the, those questions, what is your soul? What is the spirit? What do you consider to be divine? 40% of Americans find a sense of spirit in nature like Ralph Aldo, Emerson and Margaret Fuller. They go out, they, they hike and they see the light on trees and they're like, that's divine. I've almost felt that. Right? And a lot of people find a sense of divinity and spirit in music. You know, they just like that. Singing makes me feel like there's something sacred. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And what awe, the science of all allows us to do is to have a, another way to have a conversation about that. Cuz you are right. People are hungry to talk about spirit, soul, sacred and the divine And awe is a way in the spirit of William James, that we can do that with respect and pluralism. Right? And, and it's been fascinating to be part of those conversations.
Speaker 3 00:25:56 You've been listening to my discussion with Dacker Keltner about his new book, ah, the Signs of Everyday Wonder and How It Can Transform Your Life. Dacker, thanks for your time on our show.
Speaker 4 00:26:06 Josh, thanks so much for the, the really probing in deep questions. I appreciate it. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:26:11 And now this,
Speaker 5 00:26:45 Okay. Hello, this is Molly Ray Miller, um, right on radio with KS a I. Today I'm interviewing Kelly Barnhill about her newest, newest book, uh, when Women Were Dragons. Hi, Kelly.
Speaker 6 00:26:57 Hello. Thank you so much for having me on. I really appreciate being here.
Speaker 5 00:27:03 Yes, definitely. And like we established, nice to see you again since you were a teaching Artisan residence when I was in high school, which is totally wild <laugh>. It's
Speaker 6 00:27:13 So cool. What a cool surprise that is. I, um, uh, it's just, it's so, it's such a brief moment in time when, you know, you kind of get to connect with kids in this very limited way. Um, and you forget that Oh, wow. You step away for, I don't know, a decade and they like grow up <laugh>.
Speaker 5 00:27:33 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Well, I guess, would you like to share a little bit about your new book, uh, when Women Were Dragons? I thought it was phenomenal.
Speaker 6 00:27:41 Oh, thank you for saying that. I really appreciate it. Yeah. So this is a book that I wrote by accident. Uh, and, um, yeah, I, I, I, I started this book in kind of a state of rage, uh, while driving in my minivan and listening to the Kavanaugh hearings. And I, my intention at first was to write a st a short story. I owed a short story, uh, to this really awesome editor named, um, Jonathan Strand, who was putting together a anthology of, um, uh, dragon stories. And, uh, I, I kind of thought maybe I was done writing and, um, I didn't really feel like I had a lot to say in this crazy new reality post 2016. And, and so I thought, well, maybe I'll just write this one last short story and then I'll be done writing forever. That'll be awesome. And, but I didn't really have any ideas and I didn't know what I was gonna write about.
Speaker 6 00:28:39 And, uh, and the thing about deadlines is that they, they, they don't get farther away as you go through time. It's brother rude. Uh, and, um, I had this experience, uh, listening to Christine Blaze Ford, um, uh, testifying, uh, to the Senate. And I was driving in my car with my daughter who was a sophomore in high school. And I realized with this like sudden sort of, um, uh, sick feeling that I was her exact same age when Anita Hill, uh, was in front, uh, appearing in front of that same body, um, uh, making, um, uh, also recounting some of the worst moments in her life, um, in this desperate attempt to save America from itself, uh, from making world robot a terrible choice. And, um, and then here we were a full exact generation later and, and nothing had changed. And I was so mad, God, I was so mad. Wow. So I dropped my daughter off and I just felt like I was just turning into this like, ball of fire in my, my car. And so I thought, you know what? I'm gonna write a short story and I know what it's gonna be. It's gonna be about a nine a bun, about a bunch of 1950s housewives who turn into dragons and eat their husbands and set the road on fire. That's what I'm gonna do. Cause I so angry and, uh,
Speaker 5 00:30:11 Yes, yes. <laugh>, that isn't
Speaker 6 00:30:13 What the story ended up being. First of all, very quickly. It wasn't a short story and very quickly, it wasn't a story about rage. It was a story about memory and trauma and, and the role that rage plays in that, as well as the, all these other factors at play. So, um, it's very funny about writing because we have this idea, this this myth of control. Um, uh, parenting is similar <laugh>. Uh, I think that we know how this is gonna go. We think we know what we're doing. We think we're in charge, but we're not. So anyway, and the end result was this, this, this weird book <laugh>.
Speaker 5 00:30:52 Yeah. Well, I'm glad that you shared what happened. You know, I didn't know exactly what to approach the book as when I saw it. And then I think, you know, it's just so, it's so fantastical, you know, like, it's like a whole new world, but it's not a whole world we've experienced before together and in the past. And so it, like, I was gonna say, like, it's so rich with the, with like truth and fantasy, like in the past and modern day. And so this world came to you because you were upset, it sounds like, and then it turned into more than just a little project. Um, so there's like this radical feminism, and there's also a lot of, um, l g bt q a communications about, like, women that were subdued in their identity, the chosen family, which I think is beautiful. And an education equity, which was a little bit of a treat. And I didn't really know what that was when I was reading it until I thought about it. I was like, oh, yes. Um, so obviously these are a lot of topics to bring into something that just was totally born. Um, did you have to bring any, uh, like other resources in to kind of get like your facts that you wanted or your
Speaker 6 00:32:07 Example? Yeah, great question. Yeah. No, I did a ton of research. Um, uh, the fun thing about research is that, you know, um, uh, a lot of times we'll do whatever is possible to not rewriting. So research is awesome in that way,
Speaker 5 00:32:24 <laugh>,
Speaker 6 00:32:24 Um, uh, it's just like, it never ends. It's great. And so I did, I did a ton of research actually, mostly because I, I mean, I think when I think about writing a book, um, uh, I mean, for me, writing a book is an expression of curiosity, right? Uh, and, and not only curiosity about the world, but also curiosity about my own thinking. Um, and, and which is how like all of these sort of like questions and concerns and, and things that we wrestle with these like little, you know, bits of sand in the oyster, right? Um, uh, they get turned and turned and turned around and they become these little bits that show up in the story, um, whether we want them to or not. Um, and, and so when I, when I started writing this, this story, you know, sort of came out my writing pro, the writing process was very different than mm-hmm. <affirmative>,
Speaker 6 00:33:23 How I typically approach my, um, my novels for children, uh, which, um, happened in the, the way in which they unfold is a, is um, is profoundly different actually. And, um, and so this actually came out in three, you know, sort of big chunks that then I had to figure out what the through lines were. It was a lot of like cutting apart and braiding back together. Uh, but in the midst of all of that, uh, I just did a ton of research into, um, all kinds of different things. Um, uh, a lot of the, um, uh, the little intertel interstitial bits, these bits of research, um, uh, written by, um, uh, uh, our, our dear Dr. Gantz, um, uh, those are, um, taken from, uh, event real events and history that I, um, managed to sort of like twist around for my own purposes.
Speaker 6 00:34:21 Um, cool. The mill that burned down is a real mill that burned down in England, for example. Um, uh, the owner of that mill really did die as a, um, uh, and was, you know, in a popper's grave. And, um, uh, the, um, the library, um, uh, that were the scraps of, um, uh, of the, uh, the writings of TAUs, uh, is a real place though. The, the books that were found are actually missing books from his philosophy mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, from his historia, the Historia is real, uh, you know, different things like that. The, the, um, uh, the Vikings really did, um, uh, sack Rathlin and the year that I said, you know, different things like that. Um, which was very fun for me to sort of like piece things together, uh, in, in kind of oblique ways. Um, uh, there's a lot of things that, um, I had I couldn't keep, and that was very sad for me. Um, but, um, also the, um, you know, you know, thanks to the Freedom of Information Act, um, uh, the good old, um, uh, house committee on, on American activities is this treasure trove of, um, uh, uh, uh, what is the word I'm looking for of, um, uh, male blow hearty? Is that, is that a word
Speaker 5 00:35:41 <laugh> that I'm looking
Speaker 6 00:35:42 For? But, but you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, so, um, uh, just the insanity of, um, uh, the, um, uh, the, the, the supposed search for truth when nobody actually wants to know the truth. This idea of, of, um, uh, pillaring all of our, um, uh, misconceptions and our inadequacies and ours insecurities on, um, some hapless individual to make us feel like we're big men. Right? Um,
Speaker 5 00:36:15 Yeah.
Speaker 6 00:36:16 I, I am concerned that we're heading that direction again, um, uh, with if, if you know, uh, everything, I don't know if, if the, if the people in the House of Representatives actually get their act together and can actually form a government <laugh>, we'll see. I don't know. Yeah. Um, but, um, but the ways in which they ask questions and the ways in which they would, um, uh, you know, sort of foist their own agendas onto, um, uh, the lives and, um, uh, and livelihoods of other people, um, boy, it was awful and horrible to read, but also it made for great fiction. So that was <laugh>.
Speaker 5 00:36:57 Wow. Yeah. Right. It's like the, the truth is so crazy that you're like, oh, this is maybe fiction. No, <laugh> No, this is not,
Speaker 6 00:37:04 I know. I mean, the, in that particular scene, the, um, uh, the representatives who are in questions, so tho they're the real guys, and I didn't change their questions very much. Um, uh mm-hmm.
Speaker 5 00:37:17 <affirmative>. Wow.
Speaker 6 00:37:18 I thought that was interesting. I mean, that was just, it was interesting to sort of be in that position, like, yeah, I, my plan was to like, just to try to like capture their voices a little bit, and it's just like, yeah, they, they did it for me. Thanks guys. <laugh>
Speaker 5 00:37:31 <affirmative>. Yeah. That was, you know, I didn't know to expect necessarily. And then I started it and I was like, yeah, I said a kinda a, a very like, fantastical concept, and then all of a sudden I was like, feeling empowered and I was like, this is relevant. This is right here, right now. Oh, I'm so mad. Oh, I wish I had a dragon for relative all wonderful, like, wishes came up and <laugh> Yeah. And characters that were in there. You talked about, um, professor h Gant, the philosopher researcher scientist. But yeah, will you tell me a little bit about him and then also about, I love, um, Mrs.
Speaker 6 00:38:12 She's in Scott,
Speaker 5 00:38:13 In Scott Goodin Scott. She is phenomenal. I'm, um, going to school for library science. So I was immediately like attracted to her character and like the way that she like helped everybody.
Speaker 6 00:38:25 I'm always in favor of people going to school for library science. I have
Speaker 5 00:38:30 Beening,
Speaker 6 00:38:31 My poor Hatless nephew incessantly, uh, cuz I think that he is really meant to be a librarian and is someday he'll see a reason and go to library school. Yeah. Yeah. I'm working on him. I said, you know what, if you are interested in, uh, freedom of speech that is, and freedom of information, uh, there is, there is no better game. Uh, it is, um, uh, it is where the true hero heroes and, uh, and the true warriors, um, and who've already, I mean, I have talked to ear off on that. So Ms. Kazin, I love her. I mean, a lot of, in a lot of ways she was my just love letter to, um, uh, librarians generally as well as my love letter to libraries, but also in a lot of ways her story. I mean, not exactly because my, um, uh, great-grandmother did not marry the scion of a extremely wealthy, old, old money family.
Speaker 6 00:39:28 Um, and then like, you know, get a section of their wealth to push her up and then be able to do whatever heck back she wants with it. That was, you know, the, like, being able to sort of do that for Mrs. Kazinski was just really fun for me. And, um, and fun to imagine like what she would do with that and how she would sort of, um, uh, uh, be quietly, um, understanding and running every everybody's lives sort of in this sort of, um, uh, uh, removed librarian ish sort of way. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I, I loved writing her character so, so much. But my great-grandmother, uh, is from, or was from, um, uh, pine Creek, Wisconsin, which at the time was an entirely polish speaking town. People don't remember this, that the Midwest was filled with towns that were, um, uh, entirely immigrant and entirely, um, uh, everything was done in that particular language, right?
Speaker 6 00:40:28 Yes. And that was by design. Um, uh, the streets were in that language. The, um, uh, the minutes from the, you know, the town hall meetings were in that language. The post office was in that language and people voted in that language. So there were Czech towns and, uh, Norwegian towns and um, uh, German towns and in this case a Polish town. Uh, and so the schools were all taught in Polish too until a certain, um, and, uh, um, and so when my great grandma was 13, uh, she was sent home with a letter from her teacher saying, this child is brilliant. There's nothing more we can do with her. You need to send. And, uh, and her parents who didn't speak English did not believe her, that that's what it said because it was, um, foolishly written in English. And so the teacher had to come and, uh, over to the farm and explain.
Speaker 6 00:41:20 Um, and so when she was 14, she got on a train to Minneapolis and enrolled in, um, uh, the St. Mary's, um, nursing college and was a, um, was a nurse by the time she was 17. Um, wow. Um, and so, and which really did put her on a very different kind of trajectory. Um, and so, so that, I mean, that particular action on the ta on the on behalf of that teacher has always really stuck with me. Um, and, uh, and the ways in which, um, uh, the, um, but also that, um, uh, I, I, I think about that a lot. I mean, here was this extremely brilliant person. She finished coll. I mean, she like did a four year program in three. She was, um, extremely smart. And, um, but what if she had gone to like, some fancy place out east? What if she had likehmm <affirmative> placed in the midst of all of this, like wealth and power and access, she probably would've been lost, right?
Speaker 6 00:42:21 Um, yeah. Uh, without any kind of, you know, sort of support network or anything else. So that was so just like, that was interesting. Like there's, there's there, there's access, but then there's also, um, uh, that sort of opportunity cost when it comes to, you know, how, how somebody is supported even when they have that access, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and so those kinds of questions that we think about that it changes these like little tiny movements within the story, right? You know, stories are never straightforward, just like human life is never straightforward. You know what I
Speaker 5 00:42:55 Mean? Yeah, yeah. Totally. Yeah. That's really, that's lovely. There's so much of your, you said great grandmother or great, great great
Speaker 6 00:43:03 Grandmother. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 5 00:43:04 <affirmative>. Yeah. She, that's, there's so much of that in Alex's character, the, the main character of being pushed ahead, pushed to their success because they were never told that they could have it. You know? And then there's someone just doing that. And yeah, the Mrs. Kazinski Kaska, she really kinda sneaks out of the, the corners. And does that <laugh>, I
Speaker 6 00:43:26 Know, knows more than she lets on, because obviously she does. She's the librarian. I mean, come on. Uh, and but also too, I mean the, um, uh, for, for Alex, you know, sort of being placed in this extremely adult role, um mm-hmm. <affirmative> with no, uh, support and, um, uh, it, it seems, I mean, I, I think that there are readers today who, um, are kind of, um, taken aback by that. But I think it was, it, it, first of all, it's more common than people realize now, um, on True. Yeah. Um, and, uh, and it certainly has been, um, uh, more common in the, in the past. I mean, my, my grand, my great-grandmother was only 14, you know, and yeah. And was like, she had an apartment and she like had to, she had to like do a side job to be able to, I mean, she had to be able to do all of these things. She had some, you know, sort of, uh, some support coming not only from her parents, but also from just her local parish, you know, that they were, um mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, sort of like as a community, they kind of rallied around her pause. Um, but, um, but yeah, it is, um, uh, it, it is, it is unfortunately more common than we realize.
Speaker 5 00:44:42 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And then you said that you kind of pulled the Professor G's persona from actual, like, examples in history in Yeah, I mean, I mean, so his,
Speaker 6 00:44:52 His curiosity, um, I, uh, sort of mirrored my own in some ways. Um, oh,
Speaker 5 00:45:00 Great.
Speaker 6 00:45:00 I, you know, just because, because I'm a very curious person and, um, uh, and I, it is sort of, I make it my business too, um, uh, uh, you know, look things up and uncover things. I love, love, love research so much, and I really do dislike writing a lot. <laugh>
Speaker 5 00:45:20 <laugh>. Yeah.
Speaker 6 00:45:22 I'll literally do anything in my power to, um, uh, uh, to keep from working. And, and so as a result, I, I, I, I end up, um, uh, sort of like going down all these different rabbit holes, but I've always been kind of wired that way. I mean, when I was one of those, when I was a little kid, I was one of those kids that would like read the encyclopedia for fun, you know,
Speaker 5 00:45:47 <laugh> cute.
Speaker 6 00:45:48 We had a, we had a, a, um, collection of, um, Brittanica and we had a collection of the full, like Comptons, and then we had this other one that was like this, I don't even know what, maybe it was like World Book. It wasn't World Book. It was some other one that was like fully illustrated. I read all I, all of them, like the whole thing, you know? And, um, wow.
Speaker 5 00:46:10 Because
Speaker 6 00:46:10 I just, I loved little facts. I like, I loved looking mm-hmm. <affirmative> and learning them, and then I would, um, yeah. Forever. Um, so anyway,
Speaker 5 00:46:19 Another big, there's other like big nice heavy books to handle too. They're very satisfying. I mean,
Speaker 6 00:46:25 I literally still have the Encyclopedia Britannicas that were my grandfather's, uh,
Speaker 5 00:46:32 Oh, sweet. Next
Speaker 6 00:46:33 To me. Uh, the whole set of 'em. Uh, they're from, um, uh, what year are they from? I forget. Like late 40
Speaker 5 00:46:41 <laugh>. I mean, right.
Speaker 6 00:46:42 Like, there's just nothing in them that is current at all, and yet I can't throw them away, you know? Um
Speaker 5 00:46:49 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Oh, that's so hard. That sometimes I
Speaker 6 00:46:52 Find, sometimes I find them useful. I mean, there's not a lot of sort of updates and what we understand about Babylon, for example. Um, or, um, and, and the, the, the section on Greek mythology is actually really interesting. And it's one of those things that I return to, uh, every now and again. So
Speaker 5 00:47:09 That's, yeah. A coworker of mine the other day at the library was like, I like the old dated books. I'm like, well, the information is dated though. And she goes, where they went. Um, well, but I wanna know what people thought back then, you know? I wanted to know how they thought I, I know how I feel, so I was, I was like, oh, I've actually never heard someone explain it that way versus just, you know. Yeah. Um, withdrawing the, the old works. And it is dated granted, but it's kind of nice to, you know, hold on to a little bit. Um, okay, so we only have like five minutes left, but I was gonna ask you a little bit if maybe, do you wanna read a little chunk from the book rather than start talking about anarchy and bean culture? <laugh>?
Speaker 6 00:48:04 I do love doing that, but I think that I am going to do that. Um, how, how much would you like me to read?
Speaker 5 00:48:12 Um, if you wanna read le like a little, maybe like a little plot chunk, like a minute or two or just a minute is probably fine.
Speaker 6 00:48:21 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. So what I'm gonna do is, yeah, I, I'm just gonna read the very beginning of, of chapter one. Does that sound
Speaker 5 00:48:30 Good? Sure. Yeah. Thank you.
Speaker 6 00:48:32 And I'm just gonna read just the very, very beginning. Um, uh, and, um, yeah, I, I'm not gonna read the whole chapter. I'm just gonna read the, the, just the top little bit. Um, uh, just great cause lead. I was four years old when I first met a dragon. I never told my mother. I didn't think she'd understand I was wrong, obviously, but I was wrong about a lot of things when it came to her. This is not particularly unusual. I think perhaps none of us ever know our mothers not really, or at least not until it's too late. The day I met the dragon was, for me, a day of loss set in a time of instability. My mother had been gone for over two months. My father, whose face had become as empty and expressionless as a hand and a glove, gave me no explanation. My Auntie Marla, who had come to stay with us, to take care of me while my mother was gone, was similarly blank. Neither spoke of my mother's status or whereabouts. They did not tell me when she would be back. I was a child, you see? And was therefore given no information, no frame of reference, no means by which I might ask a question. They told me to be a good girl. They hoped I would forget.
Speaker 5 00:50:07 Yes. Yep. And there's a lot of mystery right in the very beginning there, <laugh> indeed. And it becomes so intimate, like the mysteries are so intimate between the relationships and like the visuals. And I know you have a unique relationship with the way you visualize things. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I think I, when I saw you at Majors in Quinn years ago, um, you went on about that, but I'll save that <laugh>. Um, so, um, how can the listeners, if they're interested, learn more about your book or if they wanted to acquire when women were dragons?
Speaker 6 00:50:41 Well, thank you for asking that. I mean, uh, so a couple things. Um, uh, I encourage people to go and visit my website, which is, um, uh, just kelly barnhill.com. Um, you can find me currently on Twitter, but not for very much longer. Um, uh, you can also find me on, um, Instagram. I'm, um, insufferable. Blabbermouth is my, um, handle, which my children are extremely embarrassed by, but it's my handle. And, um, uh, and, but my books can be purchased at really any of our extremely wonderful independent bookstores. And here in, in the Twin Cities, we are deeply blessed, um, uh, by having so many options. And these just me, just awesome, awesome bookstores. Uh, so you can visit Moon Palace, you can visit Uncle Hugo's, you can visit majors in Quin, you can visit Red Balloon, you can visit, um, a, uh, a wild rumpus you can visit. I mean, just, it goes on and on and on. It is really shocking how many we have. Um, uh, I, I, I do feel that, um, small bookstores are, um, what they are the lifeblood of the literary community, so we're lucky.
Speaker 5 00:51:52 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I picked mine up, um, at Majors in Quinn. That was great. <laugh>. It's such
Speaker 6 00:51:58 A great store. I just love that store so much. Um, long ago, I, uh, I took my son's Cub Scout troop there for a little. Um, they gave them a tour and got and showed them, like, told them all about the book business. And I just appreciate them forever for that because Cub Scouts are a lot
Speaker 5 00:52:17 <laugh>. Yeah, <laugh>. They're a lot.
Speaker 6 00:52:20 And they were so patient, they were so kind. Uh, and they were so thorough and the boys were so interested. It was very cute. So I love them.
Speaker 5 00:52:28 Sweet. Um, well, I'm gonna close it up. Uh, thank you so much, Kelly. It's been a blast to reunite and laugh and learn about everything. Um, thank you all, everybody that's been listening for tuning in tonight as we spoke with local author Kelly Barnhill and her new book, the When Women Were Dragons. Tonight here on Right on Radio. And
Speaker 1 00:53:43 I'm Sam. I'd like to thank our guests tonight, Dacker Keltner and Kelly Barnell, and all of our listeners. Without your sport and donations, K ffa, I would not be possible. You can find more news and info about Ride on
[email protected], right on radio. You can listen to all your favorite Ride on radio episodes on Spotify, iTunes, Google Podcasts, apple Podcasts, and anywhere you stream your podcast.
