Write On! Radio – Barbara Freese / Pete Carlson

Speaker 0 00:00:00 <inaudible> Speaker 1 00:00:29 You are listening to right on radio on KFA 90.3 FM and streaming live on the web at <inaudible> dot org. I'm Josh Webber tonight on, right on radio Dave FEDEC, we'll be speaking with Barbara Frieze author of industrial strength, denial, eight stories of corporations defending the indefensible from the slave trade to climate change. She's an environmental attorney and a former Minnesota assistant attorney general or interest in corporate denial was sparked by cross-examining coal industry witnesses disputing the science of climate change. That early work led to the publication of coal, the human history, and your times the book I'm loose old in the second part of our show, Josh will be talking with Pete Carlson about his new Speaker 0 00:01:12 Thriller Ukrainian nights. Speaker 1 00:01:14 Charleston was raised in the Minneapolis area where he graduated with a bachelor of science and an MBA from university of Minnesota after graduation. He began developing a successful career in commercial real estate. He currently resides in Denver, Colorado, all of this and more so stay tuned to write on radio. Speaker 0 00:01:41 So Barbara, if you have a reading for us, you want to get us started with that. Sure. Um, and maybe just a brief setup here. I, I write in my book, uh, about eight different campaigns of denial and try to really dig into what the industry said in its defense. And one of the chapters is about, uh, the tobacco industry. And here, I'm talking about how they try to exaggerate what they call the benefits of smoking while minimizing the risks, right? Ask for rationalizing their own decision to continue selling cigarettes, industry leaders, routinely viewed smoking as preventing much worse behavior. One retired head of Philip Morris told author Richard Kluger that I felt we were performing a real service. That ours was a product helping the public through the rigors of living. Noting that tobacco was not nearly as bad as opium or crack. We have fulfilled a need. Speaker 0 00:02:38 He added, and it's very naive to assume that non-smokers don't fulfill that need in other and more destructive ways, including antisocial acts of aggression. As noted at the beginning of this book's introduction, Phillip Morris CEO, Jeffrey Bible argued in 1998, that nobody knows what you would turn to. If you didn't smoke, maybe you'd beat your wife. Maybe you drive cars fast. Who knows what the hell you do. The flip side of industry's alternate reality risk benefit analysis was to minimize the risk for one thing, who's to say certain physical impacts are unwelcomed in 1971, Joseph Coleman, the third chairman of Philip Morris dismissed evidence that women who smoked gave birth to lower birth weight babies, by stating that some women would prefer having smaller babies two years later, mr. Coleman had inexplicably noted upon questioning by a congressional committee that there are a lot of people that liked to cost more commonly though. Speaker 0 00:03:40 The industry just compared the risks of smoking to other accepted risks in the same vein as the auto industry, comparing unsafe cars to hardwood floors or the aerosol industry comparing ozone depletion to sharp kitchen knives. The author of the industry sponsored 1954 article smoke without fear argued that declining to smoke on risk grounds would be like refusing to drive a car right in a train cross, the street carry matches, sit under a tree own a dog, drink milk or kiss someone because the bacterial content of a KIST is horrifying helmet. Wacam head of research and development at Philip Morris said in a 1976 British television interview, that all kinds of things are unhealthy. Cigarettes are one. So what are we to do stop living? He later added that applesauce is harmful. If you get too much of it, the point of course was to encourage a fatalistic acceptance of risk as simply inevitable unknowable and unavoidable, even risks as large. And by then, obvious as smoking, Speaker 2 00:04:50 I tell ya, I had to bite my tongue to keep from hauling as, Speaker 0 00:04:53 Yeah, there were a few hollers from this industry that Speaker 2 00:04:56 That's sure my word and that's your, most of our, many of our listeners did. Ah, that's a great reading and great way to get us started. Thank you for that, Barbara. So many questions really enjoyed the book, but let's start out with, as, as Josh indicated in the intro, what got you started down this path and when you tell that story, if there's time or if we don't forget, you mentioned cigarettes, and I'm wondering if you were on the ag staff in Minnesota during the big, uh, battle the tobacco, Speaker 0 00:05:24 Right? Sure. Well, let me just briefly answer that question. I was, but I was not involved in the tobacco case per se, but I do remember taking time off to go down to the trial, to the courtroom, to watch the testimony of Jeffrey Bible, the very CEO I just quoted. I'm thinking that maybe I would somehow gain some deep insight into, into his moral universe. And I did not. Um, but as to your question about, about getting started on this book, um, yeah, I wasn't assistant AIG for Minnesota. My was the pollution control agency and we had a proceeding in Minnesota in the mid nineties where we were essentially litigating the science of climate change. And it started out as a big administrative proceeding. And then it went to the court of appeals. But this, the fact that we were looking at this issue, uh, triggered a nerve with the coal industry. Speaker 0 00:06:17 They sent a bunch of witnesses to Minnesota and they testified that we did not have to worry about climate change. It wasn't going to happen. Or if it did, it would be mild and we'd enjoy it after all Minnesota is a cold place and they argued that the scientists that essentially the entire world were relying on in terms of negotiating the climate treaty at the earth summit, that those scientists were biased, maybe financially, maybe politically one, one scientists claim that, that another scientist at the IPC was religious. We had basically sort of mainstream Christian religion, and he had written about stewardship and, and this coal industry witness said that made him too biased to be relied upon. Uh, so yeah, it was a lot of very strange things and it was, it was shocking to me cause I do the danger was grave and they were being very cavalier and dismissing it. Speaker 0 00:07:15 And then in the years that followed, I saw this denial spreading through society and in a really alarming way, you know, basically starting with the coal industry and the people who they had hired to testify for them and spreading into right wing media, uh, right-wing sort of free market groups that were spreading it through different kinds of outlets and then essentially taking over the Republican party. Uh, and now of course the white house and, and over the years as I watched this, I was horrified and, and thinking that this is just such a powerful social phenomenon and that got me wondering, well, what else has this social phenomenon done to humanity? And, and where has it taken us? How far from reality, how have other industries reacted when confronted with evidence of that they're causing damage and you know, how did society push back and eventually overcome that if it did, Speaker 2 00:08:12 Right. Yeah. I hope we have time to come back to climate change because they think it's such a great example because we're all living in it of what you describe as corporate denial, industrial strengths, denial, and the very clever title. So, but so let's start back with there. Barbara, if we main sort of define our terms, I think we all intuitively get what this means, but you're a lawyer and words have meaning words matter. So, uh, I used to work with lawyers and, uh, I remember I Hill Oh, that's way back. Yeah. Yeah. You know what that means? So, uh, tell us what you mean by corporate denial and then we'll get into some of your examples. Speaker 0 00:08:44 Okay. I use the term denial very broadly to include both outright lies and what we might call a more psychological denial being in denial or what I would also call basic rationalization or self deception. I decided very early on that this book would be unrightable if I was going to try to distinguish between actual lies and something that might not be an actual lie, but could be some form of self deception. You know, honestly, what, how I interpret any given denial just kind of depends on how cynical I'm feeling that day or how idealistic. I think that, you know, obviously humans have an enormous capacity for deception, but I think we also have an enormous capacity for self deception. And I think those two things are actually interrelated in such a way that it doesn't, it doesn't really benefit us to try to tease them apart too much. Speaker 2 00:09:39 You talk about corporate responsibility, you know, the facts, we sort of touched on this, but you also, and you used this term earlier and one of your answers, the word moral, and I was a little bit surprised to see that word in morality come up throughout the book, not surprised to see it because I get, I understand why it would be in a book like this, but it's a term that seems to me is so relative, right? Not subjective necessarily, but maybe, and again, as an attorney boy words matter, and uh, that word can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. So how do you use the word moral in terms of what you uncovered? Speaker 0 00:10:17 Well, I don't think I use it in a, in a particularly complicated or, or controversial way. Usually when I'm talking about, about morality, I'm using it as, uh, using it with the, with the word responsibility. Are you being morally responsible? Because there are a lot of denials where well, many of them are causal. So they'll say, they're saying we did not cause this problem something else did, but a lot of them fall into this larger category that I call moral responsibility, where maybe they're saying, for example, if you don't smoke, you'll beat your wife. So therefore it's not our responsibility if Mo if smoking causes problems, because the lack of smoking would cause more, they find a way to get themselves off the hook of responsibility. And I think that's a kind of moral rationalization. Speaker 2 00:11:08 You begin by talking about slavery, great example for a lot of reasons, but it's certainly very timely for all of the issues that we're dealing with right now. So describe why of why you started there and then most everything else is, you know, more or less, you know, within the last century or so what lessons does it hold for the cases going forward? Because I believe when I read it, that's it that's the lesson I took away from beginning with that example that are really sets up everything down the line. But maybe if you could describe that for me, Speaker 0 00:11:38 That's how I came to see it as well. I basically wanted to cast my net broadly and look through history for the most important and revealing examples of corporate denial or industrial denial. And the slave trade turned out to be the first really well organized campaign of denial that I could find. And I was hesitant at first to even dig into it because it's such a painful subject. And, um, I, and I also didn't want to pretend that there was a direct moral equivalency between selling your fellow human beings and selling these other products, even though they're all dangerous. But I do think they, they are similar in the sense of, of being about denial, denying facts, and also denying responsibility. So when I plunged into it, I decided I really had to include it. I think one of the main lessons we get from it is just that it is the, an illustration of how extreme and industry lucrative, legitimate industry can be in its denial in terms of just pretending facts that are obviously lies. This is the one chapter where I don't really, uh, hesitate to say that their denials. Speaker 2 00:12:57 Yeah, yeah. Lucrative is a very important word in, uh, in your story, is everything come down to money? Is that just, Speaker 0 00:13:05 I think money is always a part of it, but I also think that that's a very limited, uh, way of looking at it. And part of the, uh, I think one of the reasons we assume it's money is that that's how traditional economics looks at human behavior, that it assumes that we are all individuals out for maximum profit maximum self-interest. I think that overlooks lots of really interesting social psychology about us as social creatures. So I try to dig into a lot of other factors here, like basic tribalism ideology, um, a variety of, of what I call blame shelters, where people find ways, very tempting ways to avoid feeling responsible for the harmful consequences of their industry's actions. So, yeah, I think greed is absolutely a part of it. And in fact, I write a chapter about the financial crisis, where money is, is very prominent, but, uh, I think there are a lot of other factors as well. Speaker 2 00:14:09 I'm going to talk about those, but I want to remind our listeners that we're speaking with Barbara freeze, the author of industrial strengths, denial, eight stories of corporations defending the indefensible from the slave trade to climate change. And Barbara, you were in st. Paul, you're one of our own innocent. Wonderful. So you mentioned these other sort of drivers of this behavior and in a tribal lens, you use this term I'd like you to talk about, but also you mentioned what, the way the brain sort of reacts to a various incentives, um, and got some terms written down here, going system versus a stopping system. And I think you cite Daniel, Kahneman's thinking fast and slow, which is a wonderful description of how we approach different situations in life. So that's a very broad sort of blah blah way of introducing us. Very cool ideas. Do you want to take us through them? Speaker 0 00:15:02 Sure. Well, I'll just touch briefly on tribalism because of course we're all talking about that a lot. These days in our, in our, in the political context, we have a particularly polarized public. And one of the things that becomes clear when you look at the history of all these campaigns of denial is our tribal nature. And by that, Speaker 2 00:15:22 I mean the speed, Speaker 0 00:15:24 Which the debates turn into an us versus them sort of dispute. If you have been accused of causing some harm and you don't feel guilty about it at all, um, you're going to immediately assume that your, your critics have an ulterior motive and almost every case here, we see the industry accusing their critics of having ulterior motives, something other than merely drawing attention to the, whatever they're talking about. We also see them almost always starting to glorify their own motivations. Very seldom does a company say, Hey, we're just trying to make money here. Usually they take on some larger mission to defend themselves, and that sort of helps for them to, you know, set forth, set out the battlefield between the, their bad critics and the good people with them who they will often then define it, you know, as sort of in the bunker up, up against which, uh, hunts or, or lynchings or a rigged system, this kind of collective self pity that occurs as soon as the social norm starts to turn against them. Speaker 0 00:16:35 So, yeah, tribalism is a really big one. I mentioned etiology and there, of course, we've got basically the ideology of the marketplace that you could trace it back to Adam Smith's idea of the invisible hand. Basically the notion that you can pursue your own profit, pursue your own self interest, and the marketplace will sort of magically convert that into public good. And that does often work. It just that it doesn't always work. And it becomes an excuse not to worry about the consequences of your actions and, and that sort of, you know, we're that sort of reason to not pay attention to the harm you might be causing God exaggerated in recent decades with this notion that the only legitimate, um, responsibility of a corporation is to maximize shareholder profits. And if they're doing anything else, it is illegitimate. And even more recently, we've seen in the last couple of decades, the, the idea that marketplace the marketplace is something we should have so much faith in that we do not need government. In fact, a government regulating market players is illegitimate that that sort of ideology has seeped into not just a lot of corporate culture, but into a lot of our politics. And, and that's, uh, been a huge problem. Speaker 2 00:17:52 I'm going to argue for the defense here from you mentioned these, uh, forces that act on us, all of us are, you know, exposed to these and react to these. Is this something of a defense for corporations or people within them? It feels, sounds instinctual to me. In other words, that we would act in a tribal sort of way that, uh, we are exposed to ideologies. We adhere to ideologies and we react to how those ideologies influencer our thinking. And then some of these other instances that I mentioned previously, um, like Daniel Kahneman's work in that sort of thing, you know, do we need to give people a break? I mean, uh, Speaker 0 00:18:35 Yeah, I mean, for the most part, my book, even though I do use the word moral in it, and in terms of talking about responsibility, for the most part, my book is not trying to say, wow, are these terrible people? What, what I'm more trying to say is don't look at the bad apples, look at the barrels that made them bad. And look at all of these incentives. We have created that promote denial and basically play on human nature to make it easier for corporations to cause harm and then to deny they're causing it. And, and ultimately, I, you know, make a plea for, uh, w needing to strengthen the other forces in our society, that balance corporate power, and maybe someday we can reform the corporation. So it's less denial promoting, but that's a much longer debate. Speaker 2 00:19:24 That's really lovely metaphor, the apples in the barrel, because I, I do think that many of these people were bad people, Speaker 0 00:19:32 But they may well be overrepresented in this world. Let's say that, Speaker 2 00:19:36 Honestly, the barrel is bad. I like that. But let's talk a little bit more about what that means. Cause you talk about citizens United, also the barrels, not a thing and real thing, it doesn't have feelings. So how has the barrel, Speaker 0 00:19:49 Well, the barrel is a legal construct that we've put in place and basically said, okay, this legal construct, we're going to pretend it's a human being. It will be able to hire and fire people and contract and do all the things that you need to do to operate in the commercial economy. However, it will never die and it will have certain tax benefits and it can accumulate wealth for very long period of time. And more importantly, we have set up away for those who run and own that, uh, well corporation, not to feel responsible for what they do because we have put in place limited liability. And we also have division of labor and division of ownership and management. So you've got a corporation. If you are an employee at that corporation, and you know, it's doing some harm, you might not feel too bad about it because, well, you're just one cog in the wheel. Speaker 0 00:20:41 And after all your boss told you to say something or do something. And so you will defer the over to the boss. If you're the CEO and you are faced with having to, to admit or deny some accusation, you're going to be thinking about your shareholders and you, if you believe that maximizing their profit is your only legitimate responsibility. When you deny something that you're in fact, doing some harm you're causing, it doesn't feel like a personal act of deception. It feels like an act of loyalty. You're helping out your shareholders. If on the other hand, you are the shareholders. You may have just the most distant and transactional and even temporary relationship to this corporation. You don't know what it's doing. You don't really care that much. You might be selling your stock tomorrow and you certainly don't feel responsible and you have limited liability so that you can not be held liable if the corporation hurts people. So it's a, it's a system that is designed to accumulate capital to generate profit, but to limit feelings of responsibility. That's the barrel I'm talking about. Speaker 2 00:21:51 That's a wonderful description. Uh, I always run out of time. So I want to get to a question that I think is really important. You come to an optimistic sort of conclusion. It seems to me, and I wouldn't have bet a lot of money on that as I'm reading the book. Um, is that a fair assumption? You're optimistic. Speaker 0 00:22:06 I, I, well, I, I will admit that it takes some effort to be optimistic. Um, when you've spent a lot of time focusing on, on the sort of dark side of, of human behavior and economic behavior, but in each of these chapters, people stood up against corporate denial and other segments of our society, other individuals, they were scientists or journalists or activists, and they eventually got our democracy to work, to address these problems. Now, obviously we haven't really addressed climate change and you could argue that the financial crisis, well, we didn't really address that until, until the economy was in shambles. Uh, and tobacco's not over yet, but in all of these cases, there has been progress. People have stood up. And also, if you look back, say at the 20th century, we've seen at least three different periods of time where the, the harm caused by corporations has been so severe that government has stepped forward and limited corporate power in, in a fairly sweeping way. Speaker 0 00:23:09 Uh, I think there are signs. We may be approaching another such swing in the pendulum in terms of the, the, you know, tremendous dissatisfaction with the wealth, accumulating at the top with our inability to deal with climate change with, I think a lot of other issues related to corporate power and corruption. And, and so I, I think it's important that we remember that people can push back. There are options available to us, and a lot of people are trying to do so right now. And, and I think the, the moment momentum is building, I cannot say will happen quickly enough to really help us avoid terrible climate change. But hopefully it will. Speaker 2 00:23:51 Great. Thank you for that. Uh, you describe corporate denial techniques, you know, projecting hysteria, screaming, hoax, or whatever the case might be. If you'd like to talk to maybe talk about some of those. So people like us, we talk about the people being aware. That's us, there's people listening. Can we be aware of this sort of thing happening? Speaker 0 00:24:12 Well, some of them you'll, you'll just be able to recognize immediately as ways of denying the causality, right? So they'll deny the existence of a problem like ozone depletion. They, that hadn't happened by the time that the first warnings came out. Um, they'll point to alternative causes. That's a very common, a very common to minimize the risk. As you heard with the reading from tobacco, a very common strategy for almost any science denial is to keep the burden of proof, always on your critics, which means the industry always gets the benefit of the doubt. Instead of the industry, having to prove what they're doing is safe. They just keep saying the other side, hasn't proven it's dangerous and that it doesn't have to be that way. I think we don't talk nearly enough about who should have the burden of proof. Um, there are also a lot of different kinds of, uh, responsibility denials. Speaker 0 00:25:06 Like the, if we didn't do it, something worse would happen. They're denials, like obviously blaming the victim. Um, you know, if those people hadn't picked up cigarettes and, and smoked and gotten cancer in the first place, uh, you know, we shouldn't be liable for that. There is, uh, one common thing is just to kind of redirect attention to either a bigger problem or a more sympathetic set of victims with the slave trade. For example, they would point out that if you got rid of the slave trade, then the sailors who work on the slave ships would turn to crime. And many of them would end up being hanged, sort of a strange little defense, but it was a way of kind of shifting the debate a little bit. The cure is worse than the disease. That's certainly a very common one. Speaker 2 00:25:50 Let me remind our listeners that we are speaking with Barbara Frieze, author of industrial strengths, denial, eight stories of corporations defending the indefensible from the slave trade to climate change. A great book. I recommend it. The CFC story. Well, I just got Josh. I mean, all Kay. Let's wind her up. Okay. So before I let you go, though, Barbara, what are you working on next? What can we expect from you? Speaker 0 00:26:14 Oh, I am. I am thinking about writing a book about our general failure to imagine progress in all of our speculative fiction and films. I mean, almost everything that science fiction or looking forward, imagines disaster, uh it's it's all apocalyptic or post-apocalyptic. Um, and, and that seems sad to me that our most creative minds are not being put to work in a way that actually helps us avoid apocalypse. Wow. What a clever idea. Speaker 3 00:26:44 We'll keep this in mind when that, when that comes out. All right. I will be a real treat. Barbara, thank you for joining us today and thank you, Dave. I appreciate it. Absolutely. Bye now. Bye. Bye. Speaker 4 00:26:54 <inaudible>. Speaker 3 00:27:00 All right, everyone. Pete, can you hear me? Hi, Dan. Great. Doing well. How are you doing Pete? Just great. Delighted to be here. Would you, are you ready for your first reading? I am. Okay. Whenever you're ready. Hey, jump into it. Yeah, go ahead. Great. I'll set the scene. Uh, Hunter is living in the East village. It's late at night. He ran after a woman with a group of friends that just walked out of a bar from behind the woman, standing on the sidewalk. Look just like his former lover, Lina that he left in Kiev Ukraine two years ago. I'll start the reading where he finished apologizing to her for his mistake. He couldn't explain why he looked for Lena. Every time he turned a corner, rode the subways, stepped from a taxi or walked out of a building. Stupidly hoping that someday, somehow she would have found her way to New York. Speaker 3 00:27:51 She flashed back to the last time he had seen Elena. He was naked and pinned against a wall with a gun to his head. There's nothing he could do, but watch Bladimir. Kerasal the head of the most powerful mafia organization, Ukraine beat Alina bloody, and then drag her out of their flat, leaving a trail of blood along the floor. He tried to forget the terrifying moment. When he suddenly realized that within seconds he would be a dead man. He remembered the loud bang. His carrier SaaS buddy guard pulled the trigger of a nine millimeter gun. And then nothing. He woke up hours later at a local hospital with excruciating pain, his right hand, a mangled mess. The following days were a foggy Percocet blur. As the times, flew him back to a New York city hospital and private check. He required two painful surgeries to rebuild his hand. Speaker 3 00:28:42 Don't he was lucky. They hadn't killed him. He would never use his right hand the same way. Again. He vowed to Vinny his childhood buddy and coworker at the newspaper. How he was going to go back to Keith. As soon as he fully recovered, it killed Kara's up in search for Lena, but he never did. Once later, he continued to conjure up endless excuses as to why he couldn't go. But no one believed him anymore. Guilt still nod at him. What kind of man? Abandons? The one he loves the woman smiled. Good luck. I hope you find your friend. And then she left him. Hunter, watch the group weave its way down the sidewalk and disappear around the corner. He dreaded returning to his empty apartment. So he stepped off the curb and raised a hand, a taxi pulled up and he slid into the backseat and immediately wrinkled up his nose. Speaker 3 00:29:31 What the hell is that? Smell? And Hunter said, try and futilely to open the window. Hey buddy, your window doesn't work. The driver's shirt, right? Not your buddy. The driver looked familiar. So Hunter looked at the name on the license, attached to the visor. The man had a thick mustache and scruffy beard. He wore a silver ring in his right ear. Lobe. Hunter had seen him hanging around with a group of Russian Ukrainian cabbies that took breaks at a popular food stand. At the end of his block, your Hunter just said, never consider putting one of those evergreen air fresheners in here. The driver looked into his rear view, mirror and frown, right? Because your taxis smells like Ray's pizza like graze, or you said staring straight ahead, veer to seventh at first out East village, Yuri green, the black Z club. How did you know the big league club is best URI kiss his fingers and grin you. Speaker 3 00:30:28 Lucky. I have no money to waste since I got married. I can't afford that place. My Sophia she'd make nice fat babies, but sex Yuri wagged his finger in the air. Real good. No more. He looked at the mirror again. You'll be married. No Hunter said that, you know, understand yet. He shook his head. I'm looking by Zofia by the black Z glove man. He treated like a man Hunter. I tried other places in Europe, but now he's come back to the black sea club. It reminds me of another place I used to go to is as good as your better. Really? He said, where's this blaze Hunter stared out the taxi window long way from here. URI drove East turning South towards East village, even though it was late. The sidewalk teamed with people. The shimmery neon lights reflected off the glass buildings, transforming the streets into a carnival like atmosphere. The taxi driver played Russian music from a portable CD player in the front seat. You are you, where are you from Hunter? Ask DESA ever been to Kieve my boys, even in there. Beautiful in summer. I wish I was sitting in an outside cafe, drinking vodka along the neighbor river right now. Yuri pulled up to the curb in front of the plaques. He club deep into the area. They call little Ukraine. Speaker 5 00:31:57 Very good. That was Pete Carlston reading from his new nuance. Thriller Ukrainian nights, Pete, once again. Thanks for being on right on radio with us. Speaker 3 00:32:06 Hi. You're welcome. It's my pleasure. Speaker 5 00:32:08 So yeah, I gave them the introduction I talked about. Your background was in real estate and development and investment. I was kind of curious to talk with you about this. So what made you decide to want to write a thriller all of a sudden later in your life, did you have dreams of being an author while you're growing up? Speaker 3 00:32:23 No. I never began to write to become an author or ever any goal of trying to publish a novel. Actually I'd love to read. Now. I was fascinated how a writer can create words and stories that didn't exist before my journey and writing started by taking a few classes at the loft literary center, Minneapolis. I'll never forget my first class taught by you and Lee's he told me I can teach you the craft, but the art is up to you. I found that writing well was one of the hardest things I've ever done, but I love the challenge. I found that writing is a lot like golf is swinging and swinging. And once in a while you get lucky and you hit the sweet spot. I write and write and write most of it's junk. But once in a while I get a word right. And get a sentence. Right. Do you know when you see them? And then you wonder why in the heck? Is it so hard to repeat? Speaker 5 00:33:13 You know, it's actually funny that you just say that about how you teach you the craft, but I can't teach. That's almost verbatim of a line that I think Hunter bread, he says in the book to his journalism class, you must've gotten that from you and grumblies then Speaker 3 00:33:25 I stole it from my Speaker 5 00:33:27 You borrowed. Yeah, exactly. What does your family say when they found out you're going to publish a book where they elated, did they, where they're not sure what to think about that. What was their response? Speaker 3 00:33:35 They were shocked and they were surprised. Um, and frankly, I think they're, they're a little proud. I writings kind of a personal journey. So I didn't really share the story with anyone, but my wife, before it became published, when the novel is released, it gives you an indication of, uh, what my friends think of my future in writing. When that app was released, I emailed a picture of the, uh, book coverage to some friends, to people who responded by saying, Hey, Pete, you've been hacked. Someone's pretending to be you. And a few other friends sent me a note back saying, Hey, you know, we had really, really low expectations for the book or frankly, we were surprised how much we enjoyed it. So it's been kind of fun in a bed and adventure, Speaker 5 00:34:20 Right? The first thing that struck me about Ukrainian nights was the atmosphere you filled in the book. And it doesn't matter where Hunter goes. If he's at his apartment or if he goes to the black sea club, it seems every place has the sense of danger. That's always inviting the reader to go into. And was this something you intended when you were initially writing Ukrainian nights or did this just kind of emerge? Speaker 3 00:34:41 No, not at all. I really, I didn't have a clue as to what the story was going to be or the genre, the seed of the story came from Hunter's lonely life. He started with him. He was a victim of unfortunate circumstances as a result of the death. His parents had a young age followed by an love childhood traumatized by our foster care system. You know, I thought about how humanity has a universal desire to love and be loved. And the story evolved from a seeding. Keve where I imagined Hunter finding for the first time in his life of all places, a place and people who made him feel like he belonged, even with his perception of love, for a Molina, the mistress of the head of the largest mafia, family and Ukraine. And even if in his heart, he knew he was paying for that love inside of a high end brothel. Um, the story just kind of took a life of its own. It really didn't start out to, with the idea of what it would be Speaker 5 00:35:35 Hallmark and new in literature and film. It often involves the protagonists unable to move on from their past. And you see flashbacks that tell us about this character and their inability to be able to move on. Was this narrative framing? What you, you just kind of revealed this, but you didn't have that in mind when you're writing Ukrainian nights. Did you? Speaker 3 00:35:54 Uh, no. It was really interesting. Um, you know, since I'm kind of a rookie at this stuff, you know, it's all, uh, kind of a mystery to me, but the story of all from writing a series of individual individual scenes that seem unrelated at the time. And this was given to me by the wise advice, uh, by Ian, uh, at least my writing coach, he was very specific in his instruction. He said, do not attempt to create the story before it's written. He said, let the voice come to you. I know it's on Orthodox, but it was amazing how the seeds began to relate. And then finally took off. Here's the really kind of pivotal point. Once I let go and quit trying to steer the story, then I couldn't get the words on the computer fast enough. And as it relates to flashbacks, boy, they're tricky, tricky to keep the choreography intact. And then they remind the reader where Hunter was in his life. And so it's kind of a constant battle, but, um, that's, you know, I take the challenge. Any, any author does when they're trying to do flashbacks, but the process of, uh, you know, writing, I know some people, you know, outline and structure the story, mine was kind of the opposite. I was tagging along, trying to keep up. Speaker 5 00:37:12 So it's kind of fair to, for me to ask you then, but it really helps an author to be able to imagine their characters in a trap or in a position where they can escape from it. And then the author tries to find a way to work out how this, how their character is going to move, remove themselves and move on or solve the mystery. Was that how your experience wasn't right. Speaker 3 00:37:31 Yeah, it was, you know, the interesting part was it wasn't the actual character. Um, it wasn't the specific character that was that I could, uh, referred you to, to solve the puzzle. It was the characters around that were the key to the puzzle, which that was the fun part, you know, to kind of watch how that just unraveled and where, where it took me, where I think, you know, Hunter in a spot, it's not him that solves that the way I experienced it, it was an evolution of all the things that are going on around and the people in characters around him that led to, uh, to be able to kind of move forward to solve the puzzle or get them out of the situation. So that, that was really the fun part just to every day, wonder what's going to happen next. And how is it going to get out of this, Speaker 5 00:38:18 The character Hunter already, he mentioned very early in the book that he has an interest in Eastern European history. Do you share this interest with your protagonist? Speaker 3 00:38:27 Um, it was, you know, kind of as a sidebar to it. You know, the initial setting for the book is in New York city and had two sons that lived in the Bohemian area of East village, very close to the girls that lower Manhattan and Brooklyn were mostly Ukrainian Russian immigrants settled after world war two. And then again at the fall of Soviet union. So I was really fascinated with how after the fall of the Soviet union, you know, the impact of Russia and Ukraine and Eastern Europe in our lifetime, where, you know, there is a huge power vacuum created in 91 when the Soviet union felt no region was thrust into anarchy in the mafia and the cakes, KGB afters quickly took control over Eastern Europe pressure and Ukraine. And today they estimate there's about 200 mafia families and older guards that still to this day control the majority of the Russian Ukraine and economies. So I dunno, I due to the economic political on here, heritage history, Russian Ukrainian become bitter rivals for many generations. And I embedded this rivalry into the story just to add some interesting twist. So it was, you know, kind of one of the fun things about writing and exploring what you write is, you know, you get to learn a lot along the way, Speaker 5 00:39:40 Absolutely something that struck you about Hunter, um, for off the bat. But when I was reading the book is how vulnerable he is. And in the opening pages, he, um, he tells trusts in our character, Viktor that he wants to teach history eventually. And that he tells a woman that the black sea club, his parents had died at a young age. It was refreshing. I think, for me to see this as a person who wasn't trying to have this rough, tough exterior to every person he met, he was very open and very honest about his past experiences and how it affects him. Was that important for you when you were envisioned Hunter as a Speaker 3 00:40:11 Yeah. You know, um, it was interesting to kind of, you know, really explore Hunter is wounded, but like most victims, he can't see himself for what he is or what he's capable of giving. You know, he doesn't see the potentially as, and he lets others dictate his life like Cabot and some of the other characters, he hasn't found his true self. So Tess is a person that created a help him find his value and purpose for him to think beyond himself, it's a test empowers him that he can control his life and helps them to make decisions in the end that make a huge difference in other people's lives. So it was really fun, fun character to get to know. Speaker 5 00:40:52 I actually didn't think about it until you mentioned it, but you're absolutely right. It seems like every, every most everyone around him, it seems to be telling him how to live his life and he doesn't while he's maybe against it, but he doesn't actively resist it though. And I think your mention of cab is a really good example of that. He's really just going along for the ride, isn't he? Yeah. There, um, there are a few lines in the book that stuck out to me that I really light that sort of tone. I think for hunters, fatalistic worldview, like loneliness as poverty, the soul and spiritually overall, we're only as weak as our secrets. I was curious if you could talk about these lines from Hunter, I think they could reveal they do reveal a hidden poetic or philosophical depth to them. Speaker 3 00:41:31 Yeah. You know, each one of my characters are survivors in one sense or another, and they're also victims a song by circumstances out of their control and others, by choice that back to my earlier statement about human desire to, you know, to love and be loved, Hunter became addicted to Lena because she represents something he's never experienced in his life, which is the joy and the agony of a meaningful relationship. They say, uh, you know, the experts say that emotional neglect is much more harmful than physical abuse. Life's complicated and the choices and the rationalization of Hunter's choices and the actions that he takes are related to the wounds of the heart. I tried to explore the same issues in different ways for each of the characters, Speaker 5 00:42:21 The driving force. I think of, of the book is Hunter trying to find his love interest to Lena and to discovering she's alive or nod. She's the strong, a sort of character who is a really good foil, I think for Hunter. And in some ways have me wondering if you had to cast this film right now for adaption, who would you want to play? Elena? Speaker 3 00:42:41 You have to answer that first and then allow me to have Janet. Speaker 5 00:42:45 That's a good, really how to think about that. I'll come back to it. I'll give you the answer before the end. Speaker 3 00:42:48 Alright. You know, just because of my age, uh, you know, I don't know all the younger, you know, great actresses, but, uh, you know, I think a younger version of Angela that Jolie would be, she'd be, she'd be quite a character for a Hunter. I think Speaker 5 00:43:06 My first instinct was my first response was me, Angela, Angela. And I was trying to think of something more closer to maybe to now maybe Scott Johanson. I think he'd be a good one too, Speaker 3 00:43:15 But you know, she's a survivor. You know, her whole characters is like carousel. They, you know, they come out of circumstances where they've learned how to be survivors, but, you know, they have their, they have reasons for their actions and, um, but they're all still, you know, all of them, half of the characters have some aspect of, you know, inner soul and heart that want to do the right things and life circumstances kind of, you know, shaped them in a way that really dictates a lot of that motivation, the actions that they have. Speaker 5 00:43:48 I don't know. Talk to you, ask you quickly about this character Cabot that shows up in the story. He's the, uh, the editor for the New York times and he's the supervisor directly to Hunter. He's this very crass and likable person right at the bat. It's easy to just set the tone and kind of know your alignment with his person. He's a very believable blah boss. I've had bosses my experience who were like this. So it was kind of funny to read this on paper bag. Yeah. This is a relatable. Did you have a boss who was like this in your life? Could you, was this based on the person that you knew personally? Speaker 3 00:44:19 No. You know, um, you know, Cabot's character, he's an amalgamation of various people I've worked with over the years, you know, as something, I think we've all seen bits and pieces of, you know, various work places. So I just kind of pieced him together, you know, with different, different characteristics and, and try to kind of imagine, you know, this kind of a character in terms of, you know, his, the way he treats other people and especially a Hunter. Speaker 5 00:44:48 Yeah. Does was Vinnie based on anyone that you knew his, a close best friend, does that based on any person that you know of in your life, and he's kind of a, he's actually a good, I think, comic leaf in the story, he's a person who doesn't really take things that seriously, he's a good person, I think, to 400 riff off when he's really having some issues. Speaker 3 00:45:07 No, you know, we've all known people who have certain vulnerabilities like Hunter. Um, I think all of us, you know, feel some of that at different points in our lives. Um, you know, maybe he's more of an exaggerated example of it, but, you know, there's certainly, I think, you know, all writing has some context of, you know, our own personal experiences. He's, he's one that just didn't, he was very interesting to explore as, as the book went on, he became more complicated for me rather than less complicated. So it was, it was an adventure. Speaker 5 00:45:46 So when can we expect more Hunter Moretti? Is it, are you still, are you working on a new book right now for him? Speaker 3 00:45:52 Yeah. Well, I'm not. Yes, yes and no. Um, you know, I have a second thriller that, uh, that I'm not going to reveal whether he's in it or not yet. Um, but it'll be, it should be ready by the end of the year to publish. And then I have another manuscript that is already completed, but it fits more of a category of channel fishing that should be ready for print and 20 wine. Okay. Speaker 5 00:46:20 And my last question for you, um, work people find your work. Uh, do you have a website where we can find more about you where we can read more about what you're doing? Speaker 3 00:46:29 Well, I'm just a novice at this stuff, you know, kind of a rookie song, just figuring it all up at Amazon books, obviously, and good reads.com. Um, I'll be working out a website later this year, but if people want to have a conversation about the novel or just chat about the mystery and adventures of writing, they can email me at Carl. So PCC at Gmail, but it's C a R L S O P as in Peter CC, it's like Carlson without the end of my initials. PCC also I, one thing that I've been doing is benefit. People invited me for zoom book club meetings to discuss the novel and the art of writing. I'm happy to happy to do that for, for anybody out, even with the COVID has been actually kind of interesting way than trying to actually be there in person where we can get together with different people's book clubs and have nice to have an IC. Speaker 5 00:47:26 Absolutely. Pete, thanks so much beyond right radio with us. Speaker 3 00:47:30 Any last comments? Any last words you want to say about Ukrainian nights? No, it's just, I have to say that I'm a poster child for anybody can do it, you know, uh, I really encourage other writers just to, you know, just give it a whirl and listen to that voice and kind of let it come out. It's really fun. And writing is kind of a, it's an adventure and it's a magical experience. And I, I really encourage everybody to give it a world. I've had a lot of fun with it. It's been a pleasure to be here, Josh, thank you for having me. Absolutely. Thanks again for being on radar radio. All right. Have a good night. You do. And now this Speaker 4 00:48:08 <inaudible>.